Law&Crime Sidebar - ’19 Kids’ Duggar Couple Busted in Shocking Investigation

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

Yet another member of the Duggar clan is facing criminal charges. Joseph Duggar, of 19 Kids and Counting fame, was arrested on charges of lewd and lascivious behavior and molestation of a victim under 12 years old, while his wife Kendra Duggar was arrested on misdemeanor charges that include endangering the welfare of a minor and false imprisonment. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber delves into the allegations against Joseph, the details of Kendra's arrest, and the latest on older brother Josh Duggar’s efforts to overturn his own conviction.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code SIDEBAR at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/sidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger, Christina O'Shea, Alex Ciccarone, & Jay CruzScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrimeTwitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Is calling you from Washington County Detention. This is bombshell news. Yet another member of the Dugger clan of 19 kids in counting fame is facing criminal charges. Kendra Dugger was arrested just days after her husband Joseph was taken into custody. So now we're going to break down both of the cases against him. including newly released jailhouse phone calls that provide a whole other level to these cases. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Now, by the way, if you're following us here on Sidebar, you know that we always talk about and expose the dangers in the world, but what about this? Did you know that like a total stranger

can find and use anything about your private life? Yeah, your name, your phone number, your address, it's all out there, which is why I want people who follow Sidebar to keep your data safe online. sponsor, Incogni tracks down all these old posts and search sites that's exposing your information and then they demand its removal. Look, I was shocked. Turns out databases had my information and within days, Incogni was taking them down. The setup is simple. You just create an account. Incogni will do the rest. Plus, their new Unlimited Plans custom removals feature lets you submit specific links that their privacy experts will personally investigate and then remove. So if you care about staying safe, take your privacy back with Incogni. Go to incogny.com slash sidebar,

use code sidebar for 60% off an annual plan. The picture perfect world of Joseph and Kendra Dugger, a couple whose life was chronicled on national television thanks to TLC's 19 kids and counting and its spinoff counting on, I got to say, even though these are just allegations at this point, it looks like it's crumbling. Why do I say that? Joseph Dugger is one of the oldest boys that was born to parents Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger, who became famous for the huge number of children they had, 19 in total, with those children, then getting married and having their own kids, expanding the family, expanding the clan.

But over the last decade or so, since the show was canceled by TLC in 2015, a lot has come out about the family. Their controversial beliefs about sex and dating, the sometimes questionable parenting style employed by Jim Bob and Michelle, their devout independent Baptists who adhere to strict rules when it comes to dressing modestly, not allowing their children to date before marriage, homeschooling, their way to live. But the controversy wasn't just about, oh, this is a different way of living than maybe a lot of people are accustomed to. It's what happened next.

It's when it entered into the criminal realm. You see, the success of the show, which, by the way, consistently saw viewership in the millions after its launch in 2008, it was darkened when it came to light that Josh Dugger, the oldest of the children, had molested several young girls, including his own sisters. Josh was accused of touching the girl's breasts and genitals over their clothing, sometimes when they were asleep, sometimes when they were awake. It also came to light that Jim Bob and Michelle, they were accused of knowing about these allegations against Josh as early as 2002.

This is according to reporting from Vox, but to be clear, didn't officially notify anyone in law enforcement. That was the allegation. And when rumors started swirling in 2015 about Josh's actions, police investigated, and they determined, that the statute of limitations had expired, right? So the claims were too old. They were time barred. This is according to the Washington Post. Now, Josh ended up releasing a statement apologizing for his actions. But then you fast forward to 2021. And Josh was arrested on federal charges of

receiving and possessing child sexual abuse material, also known as CSAMP. He went to trial. He was convicted and he was sentenced to 12 years and seven months in prison. His earliest release date would be in 2032. So you can see why it was shocking. So I say all that to now bring you up to speed with what's happening now. You could say, my gosh, this is shocking when a second Dugger brother was also arrested in connection with child sex crimes. March 18th, the Bay County Sheriff's Office out in Panama City, Florida announced they were charging 31-year-old Joseph Dugger, the Dugger's seventh child with lewd and lascivious behavior. Joseph and his family, so wife, Kendra and their four children, they were living in Arkansas.

But the sheriff's office said in a statement, quote, on March 18, 2026, Bay County investigators were contacted by a detective with the Tontatown Police Department regarding a report of past sexual abuse. The 14-year-old victim participated in a forensic interview where she disclosed several incidents involving Dugger that occurred during a family vacation in Panama City Beach when she was nine years old. According to the investigation, the incidents took place in 2020 while the family was staying at a residence on Danny Drive. The victim reported Dugger repeatedly asked her to sit on his lap. As the vacation continued, he also asked her to sit next to him on a couch and covered them with a blanket. During this time, Dugger manipulated the victim's underwear and grazed her genitals. Dugger would also continue to rub his hands on her thighs. The victim stated Dugger eventually apologized for his actions and the incident stopped.

after the apology. Investigators discovered the victim's father confronted Dugger about those incidents on March 17, 2026. Dugger admitted his actions to the victim's father and to taunted town detectives. Dugger was arrested out of state and charged with lewd and lascivious behavior, molestation of a victim less than 12 years old, and lewd in lascivious behavior conducted by a person 18 years or older. Dugger is currently awaiting extradition to Bay County.

Yeah, according to the affidavit, based on reporting from people, there was this information that was relayed to a detective from the Tontatown Police Department. There was a request that the detective and the victim's father called the defendant, and on that call, Joseph allegedly admitted his actions, saying he touched the victim over her clothing and admitted his intentions were not pure. Now, you also have this video from Washington County. It kind of gives us a bird's-eye view of Dugger getting booked and the angles of officers searching him and getting his information into the jail system.

Take a look. Anything on you in the sitting in a pocket? No, not at all. I'm not in the pocket where you got it? No, nothing at all. Oh, sorry I thought you said if I had anything. You said, not in pockets, I mean... Yeah, immediately got somewhere else.

Okay, mate. All right. Any injuries? Uh... Well, I don't have anything to train. You've been here before? Um, no, I'm at that. I think I got that.

My brother went to the door. the store and the kids please stop training oh yeah I have a friend I was over here oh really yeah what's that name uh Dodger uh he was gone for in front-time area uh he just done training here yes he did part-time in time i never let you look in after the point one okay would you want uh uh uh What was that? They didn't know what was it?

I'm not exactly sure, please. You don't tell me anything here? Yeah, just today. Yeah. I like different. You talk sometimes you know. I'm not there. I'm not you're back on see on that big right there.

Joseph made his first court appearance via Zoom. He was wearing a jail jumpsuit. And according to the New York Times, Joseph waived his right to an extradition here. which clears the way for his transfer out to Florida. The sheriff told WJHG in Panama City that it could take one to two weeks for Joseph to be processed and brought across the country.

And once he's in Florida, he's gonna have a hearing to see if a judge is willing to grant him a bond. We'll see if that happens. I want to talk about that a little bit more. Bay County Sheriff Tommy Ford told outlet WJHG. We work, unfortunately, way too many of these types of cases. And I don't care if he's got a TV show or who he is or what he's done.

He's committed an illegal act, and he's going to be held accountable. for that. Back in Arkansas, though, five news obtained part of a call, a phone call that Joseph made from the Washington County Jail. I want you to take a listen to this. Yeah. Hey, yeah. Well, yeah, the only issue, well, well, you're there, you're in custody pending the issue of a governor's warrant by state of Florida. And you can be held for 30 days. Now, you may be You may be entitled to bond. Have they talked to you about?

Yeah. Are they talked about bonds? They haven't said they're going to bring you forward a judge anytime soon. Yeah, that's the only issue you've got now while you're in Washington County. You want to be out. And, you know, you get ties to community, you get your family here. I mean, the judge should set a bond, in which case you'll be out pending. receipt pending Arkansas received of a governor's warrant from from from Florida

it's called extradition which you may have heard of but okay but yeah that's the only that's the only issue you got here in Arkansas so they should and they should they should I mean you should appear to that before the dead for bond but let me know let me know if that happens okay if not we If not, we might be able to get you from a judge for that. Okay. You have three minutes remaining on this call. Oh, I guess, yeah.

Okay. Well, if he, yeah, I understand. But if you bump into the deputy or something, say, you know, ask if you ask if they're getting a bond hearing. Thank you. All right. All right, all right. The investigation didn't stop there. Days later, new development, authorities in Arkansas announced that Joseph's wife,

27-year-old Kendra was also facing charges. The Taunted Town Police said it on Facebook as a result of the continuing investigation. Additional charges have been filed in this case against Joseph Dugger, age 31, and Kendra Dugger, age 27. Arrest warrants have been issued and served for the following misdemeanor offenses through district court, four counts of endangering the welfare of a minor, second degree, four counts of false imprisonment, second degree. This remains an active and ongoing investigation. all law strictly limits the information that may be released in cases involving minors and other sensitive circumstances to protect the integrity of the investigation and the privacy of those

involved. No further details will be provided at this time. Now, Kendra was released Friday night on a bond of just under $1,500. That's according to the New York Times. It does become a question what we can expect from her case. I will tell you this. I want to tell you this. This is not an official confirmation. It's not like authorities have said this per se, but there is an insider that apparently spoke to us weekly and claimed, again, this is from an alleged insider, that Joseph and Kendra's arrests are not related aside from this one allegedly triggering the other. So according to this insider, when Joseph was arrested, there was allegedly a welfare check that was triggered to make sure everything was okay at the home. And this insider told us weekly,

quote, apparently they had two rooms where the lock of the door knob was on the outside instead of the inside, they arrested her and took her kids for that, saying it's evidence that she wrongly detains her kids. It's unclear where Joseph and Kendra's four children are right now, whether they're in the state custody, the state's custody, or with family members, we're not entirely sure. But Joseph's older brother, Josh, we spoke about before. He talked about this situation from behind bars through his attorney, who told us weekly, quote, Josh Dugger does not know the details of the claims that have been made against his brother Joseph, but he knows the media a frenzy that any incident regarding his family creates. He feels for his brother because everything

is amplified out of proportion by the media interest in his family. This makes the pain of the criminal justice process exponentially worse. Josh prays for his brother and he hopes that he can stay strong. He too has felt the crushing wave of accusation that is powered by the media spectacle to which his family is subjected. This was interesting too that Josh's attorney also said that Josh and Joseph they are in frequent contact with each other. Also a quick question. update, by the way, on Josh's case. He has tried several times unsuccessfully to have his conviction overturned, claiming that the trial was unfair, that his constitutional rights were violated. This is according to KNWA in Arkansas. So he has now apparently hired Chicago attorney

Bo B. Brindley, who apparently previously represented R. Kelly. And in his bid for reconsideration, Josh has cited a number of things, alleged misconduct by the prosecutors, misleading forensic testimony at trial, restrictions on presenting evidence of an alternative. perpetrator in the case. But one of Joseph's cousins, Amy Dugger King, also released a statement after Joseph's arrest, which she later amended. But Dugger King has been very vocal about her time with the 19 kids and count stars, writing a book titled Holy Disruptor, Shattering the Shiny Fasad by getting louder with the truth. So she released her initial statement on Friday, March 20th, on her website saying apart, quote, in light of the recent allegations involving my cousin Joseph Dugger,

I am sickened, heartbroken, and deeply angry. My first thoughts are with the victim, a child who deserve to be safe, protected, and surrounded by people she could trust. The courage it took for her to come forward, especially after years of carrying something so heavy, cannot be overstated. That bravery deserves to be honored above all else. I was utterly shocked to hear about these allegations in Joseph's arrest. At the same time, I'm not surprised that another alleged predator has emerged from

this toxic system. For years, I have spoken out about the importance of truth, accountability, and protecting children even when it meant going against my own family. She continued, I am praying for the victim and her family as they walk through what is sure to be an incredibly difficult road ahead. Recognizing that we do not yet know the full picture, I am also praying for Joseph's wife, Kendra. As she begins to process this and for the protection of their children, I'm praying for eyes to be open and above all, I pray that justice will be served to the fullest. Then the next day, March 21st, she amended her statement, quote, I need to say something clearly before anything else.

My statement released on Friday, March 20th, was written and submitted before I had any knowledge of Kendra Dugger's arrest. When I wrote that I was praying for Kendra as she begins to process this, I was speaking to what I believed at the time, that she was a wife and mother blindsided by devastating news about her husband. I want that context to be unambiguous. Those words were written in a different moment with different information. All right, I want to get some perspective here and I also have a lot of unanswered questions about this. So let me bring in former Palm Beach County State Attorney, my friend Dave, Aaronberg. Dave, thanks so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it.

So I have to tell you, when I first heard about this, and I was just reading the headlines, I first thought, oh, my gosh, Kendra's getting arrested, maybe not surprising because in a number of child abuse cases or alleged child abuse cases, you always wonder whether the partner, the spouse, the girlfriend, the boyfriend, what have you, will they be arrested, right? Because did they have knowledge about what was going on? did they participate? To be clear, what she has been arrested for is not directly in connection with the allegations that her husband is facing out in Florida. But what you see sometimes is

there is an investigation, and once there's an investigation into the home, investigators may learn a little bit more. And so here, she's being charged with these different crimes, misdemeanor crimes, lesser crimes, but child endangerment and false imprisonment. What's your take on it, Dave? Are you surprised. You'd be with you, Jesse. It is not unusual at all, I mean, especially when this family has a rap sheet. I mean, you remember the eldest son is currently in prison for downloading child porn, and there were allegations that he was molesting his sisters and others, although he went down for the child porn counts. And so now you have another brother, the seventh child, who is busted for more serious charges, felonies.

And now the wife, yes, is also being charged for lesser offenses, misdemeanors, but it's still serious. I mean, you're talking about false imprisonment, endangering the welfare of a minor, because when you find locks installed outside of children's bedroom doors, that looks like false imprisonment and endangerment. And what happens if there's an emergency, like a fire or just basic needs? What happens then?

have to be clear about this. This is just based on an insider, right? Like, we couldn't verify it. I haven't heard authorities verify it. You had this insider that spoke to us weekly who said that there were two rooms where the lock of the doorknob was on the outside instead of the inside. We don't know if that's true. And by the way, as I said before, it's not child neglect, right? It's charges of child endangerment and false imprisonment. I don't know if that's true. But even if that was the case, would that support a charge like that? Oh, yeah, yeah. Because these are misdemeanors. You're correct that it's not child neglected, but it is endangerment. And when you say endangerment, it means that if there is a fire, if there's an emergency, the child can't leave. It has no way of getting out of the room. That's endangering the welfare of a minor. And so you are correct. The reports are indicating it. We don't have absolute verification, but apparently that's why she was arrested. I mean, you're, and Although it's not as serious as her husband, who faces much more prison time for the felonies,

it's still serious enough. It casts a really bad look on the whole family. Then what happens to the kids? I guess there is no parent then to leave them with, and they'd have to be sent to foster care elsewhere. Yeah, I was going to ask you that. What typically happens in a situation like this regarding the children? Well, because both parents are being charged, DCF would step in, Department of Children and Families, and they would find another relative to take care of the kids,

and they can't find that, and there are foster homes. I mean, it's, you feel for these children, especially because there's a spotlight on this whole family. This is not typical because normally you don't have a family that the entire world knows about because of a reality show, and not only that, but the reality show was about how great of a family this is, 19 kids and counting, and how they're raised in a way that's, that they're devout,

religious disciples who just practice things like you have to side hug when you're dating someone. You can't even give a full hug. I mean, strict principles. And then you see what happens to these kids. How did the Florida and Arkansas cases play off one another? What is the coordination? What is the overlapping in evidence? Or are they separate?

Well, the defendant here, he waived extradition so that he was. will be sent back to Florida, but it would be automatic. I mean, even if he fought extradition from Arkansas to Florida for the Florida charges of molestation, you would lose. That's a losing battle. Unless you can show that they've got it wrong, that is not the right person, false identity. But if it's you and Florida wants you to stand trial on serious felonies, you're going to get extradited. Now, it's different for misdemeanors. They're not going to break down. your door and grab you to bring you back for misdemeanors. But states work together. There are compacts that allow the states to seamlessly send people back and forth. It's much

harder if it's a foreign country. That's when you get non-extradition and you get a lot of bureaucratic red tape. But when it comes to states, it's not that hard. And just to focus on Kendra before we move back to her husband, so she was released for Friday night in a bond, just under $1,500, misdemeanor charges. First question I have is when would we learn more information about what supports these allegations, the specifics of it? I don't know if it's complicated because you are dealing with children. And B, is there anything about her case that could affect what's happening with her husband?

You know, typically I would say in a case, if two people are being charged and one is facing lesser charges than the other, would there be some sort of deal that's worked out? where they would testify against the other. But this is complicated by the fact, married, two different circumstances. She's facing misdemeanor charges. You know, there's always a spousal privilege. I'm just spitballing her. I'm just trying to think about some ways this might play out. And to be clear, both of them are innocent until proven guilty. Correct. And you're also correct in bringing up spousal privilege, because that makes it very difficult to leverage one spouse against the other. That I think is probably a non-starter.

Now, it is telling, though, that Kendra's charges are a lot less than her husbands. At the same time, they may not need Kendra because they've got the, apparently the cooperation of the victim's family in the husband's case. Now, could Kendra try to cut a deal to save herself? yes, but because a spousal privilege, which can be invoked by either party, it is very difficult to get her to testify against her husband. Let's talk about the case against her husband out in Florida. Very serious charges. They seem to have an alleged confession, right? Oh, that is key. You're going to have his own words used against them.

It's one thing to say, well, she's lying. You know, this is made up, but it's another thing to say, well, were you lying? You've got a recording of him pretty much acknowledging everything. And so this is where prosecutors really benefit from stupid criminals. Because if there were not stupid criminals, then prosecutor's jobs would be made so much harder. We've got the entire burden. I still say we, I'm no longer a prosecutor, but I guess once a prosecutor, always a prosecutor. But you've got the entire burden as a prosecutor to prove cases beyond a reasonable doubt in front of unanimous juries, but we're fortunate that criminals can be very dumb. And they say things. It's like you have to always be prepared that the world is watching you with cameras everywhere and recordings

everywhere. And here, this guy is sloppy and he's going to face his own words. He's going to be, as they say in Shakespeare in Hamlet, he's going to be hoisted with his own pittard. Well, how does defense attorney fight back against that? I mean, I'm assuming there's a recording of the interview, but also if there was an admission to, you know, law enforcement and also the father, right, of this minor victim or alleged victim, how does a defense attorney work around that? Well, defense attorneys get paid a lot of money to be creative, especially when you have deep pockets. And so I think he's got a private lawyer, not a public defender, although public defenders do good jobs. But what they'll do is they'll just try to poke holes. I've heard in cases like this where they try to go into the origins of the recording saying it was improperly recorded.

And then if that fails, they'll try to say, well, it's taken out of context. And then they'll say, well, maybe it was joking. And then they'll try to just overcome it by finding other holes in the case. Because when it comes to reasonable doubt, if they can poke a hole in one piece of evidence, they can just rely on that and harp on that. well, look, you know, you have the recording, but there's this other piece of evidence that you should focus on that is faulty. And because of that, that's a reasonable doubt. But I think that the main argument for the defense is going to be that Joseph was pressured by the victim's father. So he felt religiously obligated to admit something that actually wasn't a crime under Florida law.

So they're going to say coercion here. So they're going to lean into a motion to suppress saying that, you know, The police didn't follow proper procedure and that the confession was coerced. But, man, that's hard. It's an uphill crime. That's one thing that defense lawyers always try to do, but it doesn't succeed very often. Well, it does it become very fact-specific? If you're talking about lewd and lascivious, you know, behavior, lewd and lascivious, you know, molestation of a victim,

because if you're talking about, does a defense attorney acknowledge, that, for example, there was physical contact, but it didn't cross that line, that it didn't go towards the private area. And if that becomes the question, what proof would you have? I mean, unless there was video of it, there's going to be no forensic material of it. It really boils down to the testimony of that victim, right, to explain what happened. Do these become tricky cases? The victim's testimony is important, but at the same time, you've got a recorded confession. And so that's going to be your big evidence.

It's not going to be the victim's voice. It's going to be Joseph's voice that's going to be used against him. So that's why it's imperative for them to try to cast doubt on that call any way they can through trying to suppress it, that the jury never hears it to begin with, or that they're just going to say this is coercion by the victim's father. So essentially, they'll put the victim's family on trial to say that this is motivated for nefarious reasons, many monetary reasons or other reasons

why they would make up such a thing. So that's where they're going, but it's tough. I mean, and if you're wondering if they're going to bring in the brother in this about Josh Dugger? You literally read my mind. My next question to you was,

is what happened with Josh going to play any role in this whatsoever? My initial thought was jury selection, right? A, have you ever seen this show? B, did you know what happened to Josh? Because if people know what happened to Josh, they may have a bias and say, of course, the other family members must be guilty of this, right? I mean, I imagine that has to be a key part of jury selection.

That is absolutely going to be a big part of jury selection. And they are going to fight to keep out any mention of Joseph's brother, Josh, out of the trial. So first they're going to try to exclude. any juror who knows about the brother, thinking that would prejudice them. But they'll also argue that the name Josh Dugger shall not be mentioned during the trial because that would prejudice the jury and he would be punished for the sins of his brother if it's mentioned in trial. So that's going to be a big part of it.

I'm glad I read your mind on that because that is key. The thing is being on reality TV is a double-edged sword. Yeah, you got all this publicity. you got fame, fortune. At the same time, you got a lot of scrutiny. And now a lot of people think that your whole family is tainted by the acts of the brother. By the way, talking about him, I mentioned this before. Our reporting on this, our research on this says that Josh has tried several times to have his conviction overturned.

He said that his trial was unfair, that it violated his constitutional rights. He's hired a Chicago attorney, Beau Brinley, previously represented R. Kelly. He cited alleged misconduct by prosecutors, misleading forensic testimony, that he wasn't able to present all the evidence that he wanted to about a alternative perpetrator. Anything we could expect there? You know, appeals are tough. They can succeed if they're glaring errors at trial, but even if there were a few mistakes here and there, that's not enough. It could be harmless error. You've got to show that that mistake is what materially prejudiced a jury against you, that led.

to a verdict of guilty. So, yeah, I wasn't there for every day of the trial, but I do know about these Hail Mary attempts by the defense to try to get these cases, these convictions overturn. I think he's saying that there was a DOJ expert that manipulated forensic data and committed perjury. Eh, I think it's a high bar. I don't think that's true.

They will, of course, always say ineffective assistance of counsel. That's like the go-to. blame your original lawyers for not presenting certain evidence. So, you know, I think it's going to be tough. He's serving a 12 and a half year sentence in Texas. So they'll try to get anything to try to get him out early. But I think this guy is going to have to serve his sentence until, I think, 2032. So he should get used to those prison walls. So by the way, Dave, we heard a little bit of this jailhouse phone call. I don't know how relevant it would be to any case. It seems he's just being explained the extradition process. So I'll ask your thoughts on that and be. Do you think he

would make bond? Do you think he would get bond? The law does lean towards giving people bond, but the charges here are so serious that he'd have to show that he's not a threat to the community, that he's not a flight risk, that he's not a threat to try to contact the victim or the victim's families to try to intimidate them. So I do think, he'll get a monetary bond and then he would have to pay 10% of that. But it'll be a high bond. And so because generally unless it's a violent crime like a murder, manslaughter, the inclination is to give people bond.

He'll wait for trial on house arrest press. We're an ankle monitoring bracelet. As far as the calls, people are always going to try to attack the calls. I think that it's tough. You know, when you're on a jailhouse call, you are told repeatedly. that the call is being recorded. So it's hard to say, I didn't know. And that's why I say, if not for dumb criminals,

prosecutors wouldn't be so successful. Dave Arrenberg, thanks for taking the time. Appreciate it. Thank you, Jesse. And that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcast.

You can also check us out on NBC's Peacock as well. If you want to follow me, X Instagram, my News Nation show, Jesse Weber Live, Monday through Friday, 11 p.m. Eastern. I'll see you next time, everybody.