Law&Crime Sidebar - 7 Drone Mysteries Explained as Police Eye the Sky

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Over the past several weeks, videos and photos have spread quickly online, purporting to show mysterious drones flying over neighborhoods. Residents in states like New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania have theorized that they could be witnessing some sort of spy operation. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber spoke with aviation attorney Justin T. Green and drone pilot Ken Dono about the possibilities.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/sidebar to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger and Christina FalconeScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Yeah, that's no plane. That is definitely a drone. It's a bird. It's a plane. It's a drone? Yeah. Reports of drone sightings are still pouring in from the northeast. It's got a lot of people asking what is going on in the skies over their homes. And if anyone is actually doing any investigating here, we're going to dig into the phenomenon what this could possibly be and speak with two experts to get their insight on this situation. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by law and crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

All right, it's time to talk about the drones. We can't escape it. This has dominated the conversation right now. From reports to videos and stories circulating online and social media, you will hear about how drones have been. hovering over people's homes in the northeastern part of the United States. And we're not just talking about regular sized hobby drones that you might have under your Christmas tree right now. No. Some witnesses are saying that these aerial flyers are as large as a car. Take a look at some of these videos that have been posted to places like Twitter.

That is definitely a drone. First of all, a plane wouldn't even be this low. So to all who say they look like planes, trust me when I tell you, if a plane was flying this low, this low in this area, we'd have a lot to be concerned with. So, Saturday night, there's one just hanging out here. There was another one right below it. And then there's one just hanging out here. There's one right there, so that's three.

That's the police station right there. Oh, here comes another one right through the trees. You can see how low they are. Now that's new. I've never seen that before. Look at it. this thing. That's crazy.

Yeah, no one's talking. No one's telling you anything. And by the way, as I'm driving around, you know, trying to avoid running into the drones, I can actually use Upside, our incredible sponsor, to get cash back when I need to fill up my tank or get gas and groceries. Yeah, this is a free app that gets you cash back when you buy this stuff. It's real cashback. Money that appears in your Upside app that you transfer right into your bank account. Look here.

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on your first tank of gas. All right, I want to dive into what this might be. I want to dive into what officials are saying about these sightings, but first I have to introduce my two special guests to talk about this. I'm joined by aviation attorney Justin T. Green and also drone pilot Ken Dono. Ken, did I pronounce your last name correctly? Apologies if I didn't. Okay, great. No, that's exactly right. Okay, great. So happy to have you both here. Gentlemen, I first want to start, you know, I want to hear from both of you about this situation. Is it really as unprecedented as it feels? And Ken, I'll start with you.

I'm you know I guess being close to the industry this doesn't seem obscure to me whatsoever I understand it that it can cause panic to people that are probably not familiar with drones or how they operate or or even when they operate so I can understand sort of the foreign feel of it but I don't think that any of this is really as obscure as as the media makes it seem and I'll come back to you in a second on this because I want to ask about what the drones are capable of But Justin, go to you. What stands out to you from your perspective on this? Well, I think there is real news and fake news on this issue.

I think a lot of the sightings are of aircraft. If you see a relatively fast-moving large aircraft at altitude, it's going to appear smaller and slower moving from the ground. I personally, you know, I actually live right across the river from New Jersey near Westchester Airport. and I was watching an airplane transverse the sky. And initially I thought, you know, I'm a pilot commercial fixed-wing commercial helicopter. And initially I thought it was a drone, but I watched it for a little bit, and I realized it was actually an airplane.

They're based on the videos, some of which I think you just, you know, showed, are drones being operated and people getting videos of them. But I agree that it's a little bit of an overblown story. and I could also confirm and maybe break news, there's no Iranian secret carrier off the coast launching drones over New Jersey. I think they talked about that last week, and we'll talk about the foreign, you know, no foreign ties at a minute, but Ken, just to go back for a second, I want to be clear about something. What are the capabilities of drones?

Just assuming for a second, these are all drones, can, let me just, I'll give out some of the theories and some of the conversations happen. Sure. Can drones intercept missiles? can drones in detect radiation can they carry weapons can they map and take photographs what can they do what can't they do you know it really depends on the size that the depends on the mission task of of that aircraft the military and some commercial applications have have greater payloads or larger they can be as large as a vehicle some can be battery operated some can be powered by some

of fuel source. So, you know, when we talk about a drone, I mean, it just really depends on what its mission base is as far as mapping, detecting radiation or, you know, some of them you have thermal capabilities. So it really depends on what their operation is, will be dependent of what that aircraft can do. And I think a lot of people hear a drone and they, you know, they automatically assume that it may just be this autonomous machine. But usually there is a pilot behind there. There is a human element operating it. And it just depends on why they're flying at night or why they're operating. And a lot of times it just has to do with, it could be the safest time for those to operate because there's the least amount of pedestrians beneath them for them to do the task

that they need to perform. So it really just depends. I mean, honestly, the industry has an untapped potential of what they are capable of doing. And a lot of it is just not known to the public because it's such a niche industry, if you really think about it. When we talk about aviation, it's just such a small portion of it. Well, I think a lot of people are looking into it right now. They might not have been thinking about drones as much as they maybe should have or needed to, but now they are. So how do we get here? Let's take a step back. And what do our government and military leaders have to say about this? I want to dive into it. So around mid-November, law enforcement in the Morris County, New Jersey area started getting reports about these suspicious

drones flying over and sometimes hovering over homes. So on November 19th, the Morris County Prosecutor's Office put out a public announcement that said in part, quote, there is no known threat to public safety. This joint statement is being issued in response to rumors about the drone activity spreading on social media. We encourage the public to be mindful that what they read online may not be accurate. But the reports really didn't slow down. And the same prosecutor's office put out another statement on December 3rd reading. and local law enforcement agencies are aware of the recurring reports of drone activity around Morris and Somerset counties and acknowledge the public's concern about these repeated sightings.

So, Justin, let me go to you. First, it's legal to fly a drone, right? What are the limitations? It depends on what application you're using. There are different standards for recreational drones and there are for commercial drones. There's also airspace considerations. The FAA controls the airspace, but most of the United States, even a very heavily, densely populated state like New Jersey, probably the majority of the airspace is uncontrolled. So a commercial drone operator has different standards than a recreational, but the number of recreational drones is extraordinary. I have two, I'm not particularly heavy in the drones, but I got two of them in my house here.

I think that people are going to see these drones. They probably for the most part don't, the operational drones probably don't, you know, raise any safety concerns. In fact, I believe that the use of drones in replacing what it was traditionally perhaps helicopter operations or aircraft operations for doing, you know, real estate photography, doing power line inspections, doing all of, you know, movie work. drones are probably significantly safer than traditional aircraft. I think the FAA has been playing catch-up since the kind of explosion in the technology. And I think right now there are gaps in who controls what. Somebody operating a recreational drone in a neighborhood might be violating state or local laws, but someone operating that same drone in controlled airspace, that's the FAA's business.

And I think that most of what's happening probably needs to be addressed in some fashion, probably with some tracking technology. It's probably going to require a technology solution, some sort of tracking technology so people can understand, you know, what is actually flying in our airspace. You know, Justin, before I move on to Ken, you said you have drones yourself. Just want to confirm you are not behind the mystery drones, correct? No, no. No, I'm not.

Rumors out there that Justin Green might be responsible for this? Okay, good. All right. Now, my neighbor, my neighbors may complain, but nobody in New Jersey. Fair enough. Ken, I want to go to you. So yes, the drone, you know, has to stay below, I believe, 400 feet in the air. Have you seen instances where this could interfere with aircraft, where it could be a potential danger? Again, as we're trying to figure out how they're being, where they're being operated and how they're being operated in that space.

And by the way, let me also just add this to you, Ken. The way they're moving, is there anything unique about it? I mean, not really. I mean, you have, again, different types of drones, different type of aircrafts. I mean, if I had to guess looking at some of the video, these look like VTALs, which they are going to be a larger type of drone. They usually have more propellers. They're sometimes even a little bit noisier. They have a capability to operate like a airplane, but can also still fly similarly to a health.

helicopter. To piggyback off of adjusting saying, we do have tracking capabilities on consumer drones and most commercial drones. The FAA introduced just a few years ago remote ID and it's just become a much more prevalent thing where every pilot that is operating an aircraft is emitting some sort of transaction that is able to be picked up from the ground. Similar to how aircrafts have ADSB, drones have remote ID. There are applications that can scan and find these drones. Now, where that differs is if we're dealing with government style, government class aircraft, like what could be possibly operating in New Jersey, those may not come across on a scanner because the frequencies are not identified. So, and obviously, rightfully so, if they're

performing, you know, set missions that aren't meant to be public at this time, then that would make total sense. But yeah, you can detect drones. There's drone scanners. There's applications where the public can actually see who's operating. You can see it right down to where the pilots actually located, which poses different problems for operators like myself. The FAA definitely has played catch up throughout the years. They need to find a unified solution for this because the airspace is only going to get more convoluted and congested

as drones make things, certain jobs, more efficient. And I want to get into this conversation about whether whether it's not, it's our own technology, because I believe the evidence seems to suggest that, but we'll get to that a second. So last week, White House National Security Spokesperson, John Kirby, answered questions about the drones during a press briefing and whether, as we were talking about before, there is some sort of foreign power that could be at play. We have no evidence at this time that the reported drone sightings pose a national security or a public safety threat or have a foreign nexus. The Department of Homeland,

security and the FBI are investigating these sightings, and they're working closely with state and local law enforcement to provide resources using numerous detection methods to better understand their origin. Using very sophisticated electronic detection technologies provided by federal authorities, we have not been able to, and neither have state or local law enforcement authorities, corroborate any of the reported visual sightings. To the contrary, upon review of available imagery, it appears that many of the reported sightings are actually manned aircraft that are being operated lawfully. The United States Coast Guard is providing support to the state of New Jersey and has confirmed that there is no evidence of any foreign-based involvement

from coastal vessels. And importantly, there are no reported or confirmed drone sightings in any restricted airspace. Now, that said, we certainly take seriously the threat that can be posed by unmanned aircraft systems, which is why law enforcement and other agencies continue to support New Jersey and investigate the reports, even though they have uncovered no malicious activity or intent at this particular stage. Certainly I understand why people would be looking at this and being concerned about it. We're concerned about it too, which is why we have the Department of Homeland Security and

the FBI. My goodness, looking at this and we're taking it seriously. We understand that people are concerned. We understand that they got questions. We got questions too. And we're working hard to get the answers to that. to that. What I can tell you, as we sit here today, you know, at 216 in the afternoon on the 12th, is we haven't seen any indication thus far that there's a public safety risk.

And we haven't seen... I want the government know what they are. We are still investigating this. I can't tell you definitively. I cannot characterize for you definitively what these sightings are. I can just go back to what I said at the opening. We've looked at the imagery. We can't corroborate some of the reported sightings through our own expert analysis using sophisticated detection techniques. But that doesn't mean that, you know, we're putting our pen down here this afternoon and calling it a day. Justin, since you brought this up before, again, you believe that. You don't believe that there's some foreign power. You mentioned that Iran does not have

a carrier on the water that is launching them. What do you make of this statement that it wouldn't be a foreign power? What leads you to believe that? Well, I mean, it just, I'm usually someone who is the last person to adopt a conspiracy theory. But I think that a foreign power wouldn't be flying a drone. I mean, first of all, why would they do it? Where are they launching from? How are the drones being supported? And ultimately, why are they flying with, you know, position, on, you know, part of my, I think it might be more likely it's a U.S. government operation, but again, you know, I think the government really would owe us an explanation if it was. And secondly, again, you know, right now, you know, I flew attack helicopters in the Marines,

and right now I have a case involving a predator drone. The predator drones could be flown halfway around the world. but generally, if the government doesn't want the bad guys to see them, they don't get seen. So this seems to be more of an open operation of drones. I know there have been some stories about the lights going out when somebody's trying to track them. But generally, these people are flying drones with lights on that, to me, doesn't cry out, you know, secret missions. Well, let me just piggyback on that. So President Biden apparently told reporters at the White House on Tuesday that there's nothing nefarious, apparently, but they're checking it all out. We're following this closely, but so far no sense of danger. See, the thing about this, Justin, is if this is our own technology, you know, why don't they tell us? And I'll get to that in a second, unless there was some sort of national security risk where they can't tell us what's going on. And also, I will say, isn't it interesting that if this was a U.S. operation, the minute there's reporting on it, the minute there's sightings, and Instead of saying, you know, let's backtrack it.

We'll come back in a few months when no one's looking. The fact that it keeps coming out, that's why I think people are suggesting there might be something going on that the government knows about, but they don't want us to know about. Justin, I'll just follow up with you on that one real quick. Yeah, I think we got a little bit of war of the world situation. You know, the story is out about drones and, you know, people are now are seeing more and more drones. I think that it also may be possible that people like me who have drones are now launching them to get part of the story.

But I think that there, like I said at the beginning, there is a real story here and then there's a fake story. And I think that ultimately the real story is people, somebody is flying drones and getting, you know, videoed. And so far there hasn't been any sort of serious and impending safety issue. relating to it. But that mystery needs to be solved. And then the fake story is, I think a lot of the sightings are not drones. And a lot of the speculation is, is, you know, not real, not based in fact. Ken, I'll give you an opportunity to respond to that. But I also wanted your opinion about whether or not, just to put a button on this, do you, based on your experience and look and research into this, do you believe that foreign powers would have the ability to operate aircraft

aerial aircraft like these drones like this do they have the technology i i don't think it's the question of do they have the technology it's would we allow it sure on u.s soil i i mean we if if our country deemed that this was a foreign entity entering into our airspace it would be i would firmly believe it would be handled so i i don't believe it's a foreign power do do countries possess this type of technology drones are out there You know, China, China has amazing pieces of equipment out there. Iran, I'm not really sure what their capabilities are, but also would it be the most efficient use of their task to set a ship off the coast

to then launch drones without any real purpose? What are they looking for? What's the end result? It just doesn't make sense. There's no dots to connect. The reality is it's likely a government operation that they are not ready to share those details with and much like any job we see people doing doing jobs each and every day and we never we never question what somebody's doing just because it's normal to us so now we're seeing something that is

abnormal but totally normal to the people that are in this industry they're they could be mapping they could be scanning for for missing equipment whatever it may be and that's totally normal to them but again to the general public or question it because it's not something they are normally used to seeing. But no, to answer the first question, definitely, I don't think it's anything outside of this country. It's definitely something within for sure. And it's not only the public doesn't know, it's local and state officials who don't know, because New York Governor Kathy Hokel said on December 13th that this has gone too far. And she called on Congress to pass the counter-UAS authority, security, safety, and authorization act, which my understanding is

would strengthen FAA oversight over drones. It would also give state and local law enforcement more authority to investigate things like this. Justin, good idea. I got to tell you, I think Ken might be the better person to answer this question. My experience with the FAA is that they will solve a problem that doesn't exist. And I think the question, the FAA should be about safety. Right now, all we're talking about is solving a little bit of a mystery. I keep saying this, but right now, everyone in New Jersey at night is looking up at the sky when normally it's only people like Ken and I that are taking a look at what's flying. So there's going to be lots and lots of more reports and then political people respond to the inquiries of their constituencies. I think we both agree

that the FAA has been paying catch up, but I think Ken would be what's the best way to regulate this issue without, you know, without interfering. with what is a safe and legitimate use of drones. Ken, I'll go to you. What do you think about a passage of this kind of act? I mean, it's tough to say, I mean, because you got to think of it like this. If it is our own government, there's a reason why they don't want whatever this operation is to be discussed or known publicly at this immediate moment. You think of every large-scale thing that happens in this country from natural disasters to just, you know, any event.

when people start understanding what is happening, they don't understand it fully and it creates mass hysteria, it creates panic. And a lot of times I feel like our government will do certain things to mitigate that panic in order to be able to efficiently and effectively finish the task at hand. And I feel like if anything was truly, you know, at risk for people, it would be known and why it's not known at a state level. I mean, obviously they have their reasons. and we you know i'm sure the truths will come out uh eventually but it's just not meant to be known right now but there's just not a way to really uh you know handle it and again with the with the influx of social media situations like this just get accelerated at such a rapid rate and it's

really hard to debunk the truths from the misinformation and and to be be honestly go back what Justin said before was a lot of it is just misidentified aircrafts, you know, you look up the sky, you see something moving, you see a blinking light, you automatically are assuming you're fixated at this fact that whatever's flying at this immediate moment in that airspace is a drone and it's likely not. It could be private aircraft. It could be helicopter. So a lot of it's misinformation, misidentification, but it's hard when we're talking about, you know, possibly government contractors or just the government in general when they're operating in a manner like this.

No, and I think you made a really, really good point about if this is something that the government doesn't want to share, they have to be careful about how they share it because what could be interpreted. And I mean, again, look what's happening right now. And I want to talk a little bit more about this because in a recent statement from Homeland Security, the FBI, the FAA, the Department of Defense, federal authorities said that of the nearly 5,000 tips that the FBI has gotten about these drones, less than a hundred. have actually generated credible leads.

And last weekend on ABC this week, Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas acknowledged, quote, some of those drone sightings are in fact drones. Some are manned aircraft that are commonly mistaken for drones, but there's no question that drones are being cited. And over the weekend, New York's governor, Kathy Hochel, issued an update to her request for federal help, saying, in response to my calls for additional resources, our federal partners are deploying a state-of-the-art drone detection system to New York state. system will support state and federal law enforcement in their investigations. We are grateful

to the Biden administration for the support, but ultimately we need further assistance from Congress. And by the way, just real quick, Ken, what exactly would that system look like? I mean, there's, you know, once upon a time there was an aeroscope system. There was, there are systems that can detect certain radio frequencies. What it can't detect is if something's being operated via satellite, obviously, but it's detecting different frequencies, control points. It's looking for a ground station in some instances. So there's different types of detection that they can use. Now it's much broader, and there's even detection services that we're not even aware about.

I know, for instance, in Las Vegas during Formula One, if you launched an aircraft, they were on you pretty much almost immediately because they were able to pinpoint down to just like a couple of feet of where the pilot actually was in correlation to the aircraft, so they can see that in their airspace. Much more controlled airspace have some of the most advanced drone deterrent systems in our country. New York's one of the most protected air spaces, probably I would say second to D.C. and in Las Vegas, when we talk about drone deterrence as a whole. But it just really depends on what they're deploying and why they're deploying it. And by the way, I want to go to Ken on something about whether or not a legal action could be taken to get more transparency,

because this idea of could the drones be part of some government exercise? Well, Air Force Major General Pat Ryder, press secretary for the Pentagon, told reporters on Tuesday, no. They are not DOD assets. None of them are. To my knowledge, none of them are. Okay. And are there any sort of experimental programs going on where maybe drones are being tested? To my knowledge, no. So over a million drones registered in the United States. And on any given day, approximately 8,500 drones are in flight. And so the vast majority of these drones are going to probably be recreational or hobbyist. They're going to be commercial drones, you know, used in things like architecture, engineering, farming, or they could be used for law enforcement. Is it possible that

some of those drones could be up to malign activity. It's entirely possible, but the vast majority that is not, you know, the case. And in the case of drones flying near or over U.S. military installations, that in and of itself, just given the volume of drone flights we see on a given day, is not something that's new. We take all of those seriously. We will typically, you know, when we detect them, attempt to classify them, and take appropriate measures. Is it possible that some of those are surveilling? Absolutely. But can you make that assumption in every case? Not necessarily. So in each case, commanders have the authority, installation commanders and authorities have the

authority to respond appropriately, and we'll continue to do that. I definitely don't want to minimize the significant interest and the concern that people have. But again, I think in the way that you now have this modern technology and the ability you could go out of here right after this briefing and go and buy a drone and you could fly it around your neighborhood. And as long as you're flying it appropriately and not in restricted airspace, there's nothing illegal about flying that drone. So again, just providing some perspective here. And I think, you know, the statement that the joint statement that we put out highlighted that the assessment in terms of, of what these reported sightings could be in terms of a combination of lawful commercial drones, hobbyist drones, law enforcement drones, as well as manned, fixed-wing aircraft.

Again, don't want to minimize it, but I think it's important to understand, too, just the volume of drone activity that will likely only increase into the future and the fact that it is legal to fly drones. And if they go into restricted airspace, of course, we'll take appropriate action. So Justin, is there a legal action? Can a lawsuit be filed to get more transparency from the government about this? Well, everyone knows about the Freedom of Information Act. So you can issue some FOIA request and then assuming that you don't get the responses that you like, you can mount a illegal action to force the government to release information. There are, if it's a secret operation from the government, they'll assert a state,

privilege and you're not going to get anything from it now president like Donald Trump also weighed in indicated that the government knows what's going on but is keeping the public in suspense wouldn't say whether or not he had a briefing on this wouldn't confirm that and by the way I mean just to reemphasize this is a real issue according to Forbes the Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio had to shut down for several hours last weekend because of these small unmanned aerial systems and Governor Hockel said that drones force Stewart Airfield which is north of New York

city to close their runways because of drone activity. Also, on Tuesday, agencies put out a press release warning about the dangers that could be posed by people trying to learn more about these aircraft systems. In a statement, it said, FBI Newark and New Jersey State Police want to warn the public about an increase in pilots of manned aircraft being hit in the eyes with lasers because people on the ground think they see an unmanned aircraft systems or UAS. There is also a concern with people possibly firing weapons at what they're going to. believed to be a UAS, but could be a manned aircraft. You know, Ken, aside from the fact of shooting

or trying to shoot a drone and it goes down and where it could land and what damage that could cause, and I'm sure Justin and I could talk about the legal consequences all day. What are others concerns that you have about doing something like this? I mean, number one, just to sure fact that it's legal to do so, but number two is you don't know what you're firing at. As Justin said, when you look up into the sky and you're looking at an aircraft, they appear much smaller. These could be manned aircrafts, pilots, helicopters, commercial aircrafts even. What we don't want to start seeing happening is we have a bunch of vigilantes thinking that they're doing good because they believe they have the right because they don't understand the laws

that have been put forth to protect aviation and start firing weapons. Furthermore, we have politicians that are misinformed or uninformed in many instances and are putting things out there that are just absolutely dangerous to pilots and just commercial aviation as a whole. When you start firing weapons or even are pointing lasers into pilots' eyes, we have a bigger problem. And again, it's because there's just so much misinformation and it's so it's almost taboo to many that there's this fear. But they also, most people believe they own the airspace above their home. And the reality is they don't. They don't own anything over the blades of grass over their home. And I know that's hard for many people to understand.

But, you know, during the week, I'm out there. I'm a real estate photographer and videographer. And I will tell you, since this has started, the tensions have been very, very high. I've been accosted several times where I can go a whole week, two weeks a month, never have a single confrontation, but all of a sudden now there's like this paranoia and you put a drone up in the air and it's now a conflict. It's a scary thing for industry professionals and there needs to be much more tailored conversations from our elected officials because ultimately they have people that are going to follow them. They have people that are going to lean on every

word that they say. And now more so than ever in this world, everybody is so darn impressionable. and we just have to really be careful with what we're putting out there. So FBI Newark, there's a statement too, FBI Newark, NJSP, and dozens of other agencies and law enforcement partners. They have been out every night for several weeks to legally track down operators acting illegally or nefarious intent using every available tool and piece of equipment to find the answers the public is seeking. However, there could be dangerous and possibly deadly consequences

if manned aircraft are targeted mistakenly as UAS. And that is a real threat. And in fact, there's already been at least one report of a person shooting at a drone that they believed was hovering over their property. It happened in Florida over the summer. The Lake County Sheriff's Office got a call from a Walmart where two workers with a drone delivery service said someone had shot at one of their drones. And they'd apparently been conducting a mock delivery when they flew over a neighborhood. Lake County deputy went to the home of 72-year-old Dennis Wynn, asked him about the incident. At some point today, did a drone flow over your house and you shoot at it?

I'm gonna be real blood with you, Nass. Yeah. You did? Yeah. Okay, why'd you shoot at it? Because I thought it was somebody and turn around playing games on my house. I got you.

Where did you see the drone at? Right above me. Can you walk out and just kind of show me? Sitting straight above it? Straight above me? Do you have any idea about it? Hovered, lowered, lowered some kind of cord down or something. turned around and sent something back up, and then after it was shot at, it turned around and went north.

Gotcha. Okay. What'd you shoot at it with? 9mm. Okay. All right. How much trouble am I in my end? Quite a bit. You've been honest with me? I'm going to be honest with you. Quite a bit, actually. So there's a federal charge that goes along with it. There's a felony charge that goes along with it. That's kind of like where we're at. Okay. Okay. What happens and what happens and what?

Well, before we continue this conversation, I'm really just, for you being honest, you really just took me off guard. I'm not going to do. I'm going to lie. True. All right, sir. And the deputy said when he informed Wynn that it was a Walmart drone, he said, Wynne was in disbelief. And while, you know, that might be a more humorous situation, authorities say it is really no laughing matter. There was serious damage done to the drone, not to mention the fact that children were playing outside in the neighborhood when when fired the shot, he ended up being charged with one count of shooting or throwing deadly missiles into dwellings, vessels, or vehicles, one count of criminal mischief causing

$1,000 or more in damage, and one count of discharging a firearm in public or in residential property. And at the end of November, when agreed to a restitution order, which is not a guilty plea, but it is an admission of wrongdoing, according to his attorney. And he was required to pay $5,000 to the drone company for the damage. And if he's not charged, with any other crimes over the next six months, he won't serve any jail time. So Justin, I just want to ask you, the fact that there haven't been, you know, arrests in connection with these drones flying over would suggest to you, A, that no one's doing anything illegal, B, it could be the government's own property, or C, they just can't find these

people, which is the most realistic? Oh, my God. Is there a D? because I think it's likely that, you know, putting aside flying a drone into airspace, it was interesting when you mentioned Stewart Air Force, Stewart, because Stewart's a mixed use. It's a civil aircraft airport and also military airport. So the fact that that was shut down by a drone suggests that whoever's flying the drone wasn't working for the government.

But I think the answer is that one, they can't find them. Two, they may not be doing something illegal except for interfering with airspace. What's very striking to me is nobody shut down Newark International Airport because that would have a huge effect. And there have been examples of drones shutting down major airports in the past. So that might indicate whoever's flying these drones does, what they're doing or is following some sort of rules or is the government. But again, I think I think a lot of this is maybe the majority of what is being identified

as drones or not drones. And then some of what's being identified as drones are recreational drones. And then there are like I think there are significantly sized drones that are doing something in New Jersey and other places that there's still a mystery. Well, listen, gentlemen, I really enjoy this conversation. I think we could talk for a full hour about this even longer. But unfortunately, we have to wrap up right now. But listen, really appreciate you both. Justin T. Green, Ken Donno, thank you so much. Really appreciate both of your perspective. And listen, as this issue probably will progress, would love to have you both back on. All right, everybody, that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this long crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.