Law&Crime Sidebar - 7 Powerful Moments from Oxford School Shooter's Parents' Sentencing

Episode Date: April 13, 2024

James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of a Michigan high school shooter who killed four students, were each sentenced to spend more than a decade in prison after being convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber breaks down victim impact statements, remarks from the defendants themselves, and the judge’s decision.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Get 50% off of confidential background reports at https://www.truthfinder.com/lcsidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. The so-called loss that you say you have suffered doesn't even compare to the loss of a child. Jennifer and James Crumbly have officially been sentenced after being convicted for their son carrying out a mass shooting. From incredibly heart-wrenching and powerful victim impact statements to the words of the defendants themselves. to the judge's decision, we are going to break down this highly emotional day in court. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Webb.

We have now come to the official conclusion of the Jennifer and James Crumbly saga, and what an end it was. These, of course, are the Michigan parents who were each convicted in their own separate trials of involuntary manslaughter for failing to prevent their then 15-year-old son from opening fire at Oxford High School in November of 2021, a shooting that resulted in the deaths of four people. Madison Baldwin, Hannah St. Juliana, Tate Muir, and Justin Schilling. And while their son is behind bars for life, it was a fascinating legal question of whether they would be held criminally responsible. And they were. Remember, they purchased the gun for their son just days

before the shooting. They failed to secure it. They ignored clear warning signs showing their son was very troubled. Even on the day of the shooting, hours before he opened fire, they didn't take him out of school after they were shown these disturbing drawings that he illustrated on his math worksheet. Blood everywhere. My life is useless. Drawings of a gun and a bullet. The prosecution proved that these were neglectful parents who were preoccupied with themselves, and they were ultimately convicted each of four counts of involuntary manslaughter for each one of the people who were killed. And it became a question now of what would be their sentence, what would be their punishment. Now, under Michigan's sentencing guidelines, it is our understanding the punishment

would be about seven years in prison. But prosecutors were asking to go beyond that. They were looking for the maximum of 10 to 15 years in prison. And the Crumblies, they were seeking less than five years. James actually asking for time served. Jennifer Crumbly, very interestingly, was asking for house arrest, but to actually live with with her lawyer in her guest house. Can't say I've heard that one before, but with all that in mind, let's talk about the sentencing hearing

because it really was something. And I say that because one of the things that really stands out about that day were the incredibly powerful victim impact statements. Now, victim impact statements are a chance for the court to hear from friends and family members of the victims, people whose lives will forever be impacted

by the crimes committed by defendants. And a judge will use these statements in determining an appropriate. sentence, unless, of course, this sentence is mandatory by law, like if it was life in prison. But here, as I mentioned, the judge does have some discretion. Now, I will tell you, I cover, unfortunately, these kinds of statements a lot, and they are always tough to hear. But the ones that we heard in that Michigan courtroom were just absolutely devastating and honestly, incredibly resonating. There were things that were said in that Michigan courtroom that I know

will stay with me when I think back about victim impact statements. So let me start. start this off with Madison Baldwin's mom. My mind keeps going back to something during the trials. It was when Jennifer said it wouldn't do anything different. I'm putting a little emphasis on different. As I know life throws us things that are out of our control. I want to compare a few things to see through my perspective. As I know things are different about the events and how we see them,

while your son was hearing voices and asking for help I was helping Madison pick out her senior classes while you were purchasing a gun for your son and leaving it unlocked I was helping her finish your college essays when you texted Ethan don't do it I was texting Madison I love you please call mom you show no remorse no respect or

compassion for our family. The same traits that you've bestowed upon your son. The traits that you have torn my family into pieces. The lack of compassion that you have shown is outright disgusting. Not only did your son kill my daughter, but you both did as well. The words involuntary should not be a part of your offense. Everything you did that day, months prior, and days after were voluntary acts. of your son to commit a murder, not just one, but multiple. Shaking your head during a verdict is the utmost disrespectful thing I have ever witnessed. At that moment, you felt your life is more valuable than my daughters.

I will say that will never be true. You created a life that you took for granted. You decided that parenting wasn't a priority. Putting your child first should be the only priority. You didn't, and because of them, I've lost my daughter. That theme of the Crumblies not appreciating their son, almost not wanting to be parents, that was highlighted also by Jill Suave, the mother of Justin Schilling.

It is devastating and heartbreaking that it doesn't appear that either of you cherished or even wanted your son, but I wholeheartedly wanted and cherished mine. You have failed your son, and you have failed us all. This failure had deadly consequences that can never be undone, that can never be made right. So as you're seeing these really pointed attacks at the Crumblies, you have to say this is understandable, right? They are saying it was your fault. You could have stopped this. This could have been prevented.

And these family members were asking for the maximum sentence for the Crumblies. That included Raina St. Giuliana. the sister of victim, Hannah St. Juliana. She actually thought the max was not long enough. And she seems to catch what appears to be Jennifer Crumbly doing something in court that really upset her. Our 10-year-old little brother had to learn how to write a eulogy for his sister before he even learned how to write essays. I met up with Hannah and a friend drank school that day. When we split ways to go back to class, I just looked back and smiled.

I didn't say goodbye. I never got to say goodbye. I never got to remind her that I love her, that she's my everything, the person I want to walk through life with side by side. I thought her future was a given. The fact is, no matter what you try to make yourself believe, Jennifer, you did feel as a parent, both of you.

To me, that makes a maximum sentence being 15 years too short. Honda didn't even have 15 years to live. Jennifer, you see that even after knowing everything you know now, you wouldn't do anything different. I cannot fathom that. I would do anything to hear her footsteps coming up the stairs. You don't have to roll your eyes. It's on video that she said that. One day, I hope you would have chosen to care for your son, teach him how to love and to be loved,

that you would not choose to buy the bullets that enter children's bodies, that you would not choose to omit relevant important information to the counselor Sean Hopkins and Dina students, Nicholas Ejac, that could help their incompetent brains and one chair brings out to decide to act and search the backpack. That you wouldn't still choose to hide from accountability when you're the reason we had to hide for our lives. That you would choose to save Hannah, Justin, Tate, and Madison. Now, we don't know if Jennifer Crumpley or someone at her table was rolling her eyes,

but that is just so heartbreaking, so heartbreaking, so compelling. Cases like this one really make you think about the people in your life who's a around you? What are they about? While there is a service that can help you learn the reality about the people in your life, and that is truthfinder.com, great sponsor of ours. Honestly, what an amazing service that can provide actual safety for you guys. Why do I say that? Because Truthfinder is one of the largest public record search services in the whole world. Here's how it works. You go on their website, truthfinder.com, and you type in a name. Let's say you're going on a date with a complete stranger, right? Let's say that person is me, Jesse Weber. I'm married. This is

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who this person is or what about just trying to reconnect with old friends or family members you haven't seen in a while you can use truth finder you can use it to track them down so with that in mind right now you can get 50% off of confidential background reports just go to truthfinder dot com slash lcci sidebar hope you check it out there were more incredibly touching and powerful victim impact statements but it did come time for jennifer crumbly to speak and she had some things I knew was a good quiet kid. He loved his pets, family vacations. My husband and I used to say we have a perfect kid. I truly believed that. And that's who I saw and thought I knew. Not only were you left in the dark about previous concerning behavior, but in the counselor's office that morning, none of those previous issues were brought to our attention. I can't stop thinking had they have been. The conversation is that morning would have been much different. That we would have taken a deep dive

in what's really been going on with my son. We felt confident in trusting the professional's advice to let him stay in school that day. Quote, he did not pose a threat to himself or others. It was suggested that him being around here would probably be good. We agreed. We were never asked to take him home that day,

even to be your child, to be your grandchild, your niece, your nephew, your boyfriend, your brother your sister your child to make a fatal decision not just with the gun but a knife a vehicle intentionally or unintentionally if there's anything the general public can take away from this is that this could happen to you too doesn't sound like she really accepted that she did something wrong right now on one hand maybe that's not surprising because she would probably appeal her case and doesn't want to say anything that could jeopardize that perhaps but at the same time this was her moment to show remorse, to acknowledge her guilt,

to acknowledge that she could have done something differently. And it doesn't feel right considering that she was convicted. But she did take a moment to address that point that was brought up, that during her trial when she was on the stand, she said she wouldn't do anything differently. And I remember at the time that was very controversial that she said that. Your son killed four people. You wouldn't do anything differently?

Here's a response during her sentencing. When I was on the stand, I was asked if I would have done anything different. I was horrified to learn my answer I would not have was completely misunderstood. That answer is true because my son did seem so normal. I didn't have a reason to do anything different. This was not something I foresaw. That was the attention of my answer and how I interpreted the question. With the benefit of hindsight and information I have now, my answer would be drastically different.

And if I even thought my time would be capable of crimes like these, things would absolutely be different. Now, she also asked that the judge take into consideration that she's been locked up for months and to find a fair and just sentence. But then we heard from James Crumbly. Let's hear what he had to say. I want to say I can't imagine the pain and agony that the families, for the families, that have lost their children and what they're experiencing and what they're going through. As a parent, our biggest fear is losing our child or our children. And to lose a child is unimaginable.

my heart is really broken for everybody involved if I could go back and change things if I could go back and do things differently and maybe none of us would be here today so again I ask your honor to impose a just and fair sentence based on the truth about what you heard during my trial I'm asking the court to sentence me to time served and place me on probation for the maximum time allowed with the GPS tether.

So he says that he would do things differently. He didn't testify at his trial, so he wasn't caught in that state. But here's the thing about James Crumbly that we have to highlight. We learned that in a pre-sentencing memo prepared by the prosecution, they cited these jailhouse phone calls from James, where he allegedly not only made statements showing a, quote, chilling lack of remorse, but he allegedly made threats towards the Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald. James Crumbly allegedly told a family member over the phone that there were, quote,

the retribution, believe me. According to prosecutors on these calls, James called McDonald very derogatory terms and said that he was on a rampage and was going to take her down, and he seemed to hope that the call was being taped and that it would be sent to McDonald. Oh, she heard it. Yes. And that is certainly not too great for him. So with that in mind, let's see what Judge Cheryl Matthews decided with respect to these

parents. I can't and will not pretend to understand the pain the families are experiencing, but it did sit through these trials with you. I saw what you saw. I heard what you heard. So I can and will offer my deepest and most sincere condolences for your unfathomable losses. Parents are not expected to be psychic. But these convictions are not about poor parenting. These convictions confirm repeated acts or lack of acts that could have halted an oncoming runaway train about repeatedly ignoring things that would make a reasonable person feel the hair on the back of their neck standout. Opportunity knocked over and over again louder and louder and was ignored.

No one's no one answered and these two people should have and didn't. Mr. Crumley, it's clear to this court that because of you, there was unfettered access to a gun or guns as well as ammunition in your home. You characterized yourself as a martyr and threatened the well-being of the prosecutor. Mrs. Crumley, you glorified the use and possession of these weapons. Your attitude toward your son and his behaviors was dispassionate and apathetic. Your response to school staff after a 12-minute meeting was, are we done here? During your trial, you announced that you wouldn't do anything different. I understand that that might have been misinterpreted, but it did cut the victims deep. I believe that the following

sentences would be in the best interest of justice and are reasonable and proportionate to the seriousness of the matter and the circumstances surrounding each defendant. With regard to Jennifer for Crumley, it is the sentence of this court, Ms. Crumley, that you serve 10 to 15 years with the Michigan Department of Corrections. As to defendant, James Crumley, it is the sentence of this court that you serve 10 to 15 years with the Michigan Department of Corrections. No mincing words about that. Each crumbly sentence to 10 to 15 years in prison, the maximum. That's a state. And let me just end on this as we think about this. This was a very, very emotionally taxing case, but it is an important case. Does it set a precedent? Yes, absolutely.

The first parents to be criminally prosecuted and convicted for manslaughter for a school shooting committed by their child? Will this be a wake-up call for parents to think twice about purchasing a weapon for their children, how it's stored, maybe to check in more on the well-being and mental health of their children, hopefully? But I have to be clear here because I get asked this question all the time. Does this mean that other parents will now be automatically criminally charged if something like this should happen? Let me say this. The crumbly case was unique in how bad these sets of facts were, how egregious their conduct was. If I created a textbook example in law school about how parents could be found guilty of manslaughter for

their child who committed a school shooting, this would be it. It would be this set of facts. it is right below, in my opinion, them knowing that he was about to commit a mass shooting, which, of course, they would have been brought up probably on murder charges. So as much as Jennifer Crumbly said to the world that you could be next, this could happen to you, I would say, hold on one second. What you did was beyond the pale. What you failed to do cross the line. And as the jury and family members said, if you and your husband would have just stepped in one time,

this could have been prevented. That's all we have for you here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series, ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.