Law&Crime Sidebar - 9 Tactics Lori Vallow Daybell’s Defense is Using to Claim ‘Doomsday Cult’ Mom’s Innocence

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Lori Vallow Daybell’s defense has used interesting tactics to try to convince the jury that the “doomsday cult” mom is innocent of the murder charges against her. Daybell stands accused of murdering her two children, J.J. Vallow and Tylee Ryan, along with conspiracy to murder her “prophet” husband Chad Daybell’s late wife, Tammy Daybell. The Law&Crime Network’s Jesse Weber breaks down nine key tactics used by her defense so far.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Go to https://buyraycon.com/law for 15% off your order, plus free domestic or flat fee international shipping. Brought to you by Raycon. LAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergWriting & Video Editing - Michael DeiningerGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Vanessa Bein & Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller

that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Lori Vallow was in her own apartment in Rexburg, Idaho, when J.J. Valo and Tiley Ryan died in the apartment of Alex Cox. Lori was in Hawaii when Tammy Daybell died at the home of Chad Daybell. It is a deep dive into some of the major moments from the defense in the Lori Valo Daybell criminal trial. Can they convince the jury that their client is not a murderer? Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime.

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All brought to you by Raycon. As we continue our coverage and analysis of the Lori Valo-Debel trial, we have been focusing so much on the prosecution's case and the impact each witness has had, but now it's time to reverse it. Let's talk about how the defense has been doing in this trial, and we want to highlight some of the big takeaway since the beginning of this case. But first, a recap. The 49-year-old doomsday mother is currently on trial in Idaho and faces life in prison on first-degree murder and conspiracy charges. charges in connection with the deaths of her children, 7-year-old J.J. Valo and 16-year-old Tiley Ryan, as well as 49-year-old Tammy Daybell. This is the deceased wife of Lori's co-defendant and current husband, Chad Daybell. Now, while the bodies of her children were found

on Chad's property, he's facing similar charges, by the way. He'll be tried at a later date. Tammy, it was initially believed, died in her sleep from natural causes, but a further investigation revealed that she had been murdered, died by asphyxiation. at the hands of another. That's according to prosecutors. Now, the theory put forward by the prosecutors is that Lori did this for several reasons. One was to be with Chad, who she was having an affair with. Two, for financial gain, in other words, to obtain the proceeds of social security and life insurance benefits from the victim's deaths. And three, that she and Chad felt justified through their extreme religious beliefs, that there were these dark spirits, good versus evil,

that the kids were possessed. You get the idea. Now, Here is the complication for the prosecution and something that is being exploited by the defense. The charges. You see, she's facing first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder for the deaths of the kids and conspiracy to commit murder in the death of Tammy. But it is not so simple. In fact, it is a bit complicated. Listen to defense attorney Jim Archibald in his opening statement talking a little bit more about that.

So Chad Daybell is not on trial here. Alex Cox is not on trial here. He's deceased. Other co-conspirators, I don't know much about that, both known and unknown. So, again, your focus will be on the actions of Lori, not on Chad, not on act, not on Alex, not on co-conspirators, both known and unknown. in the charge that the judge read to you was Lori Valo concerned in the commission of first-degree murder. Did or did she aid and abet? Did she assist somehow?

Or the language of the charge says, or not being present, did she advise and encourage it to happen? Or, by command, compelled another. So, this charge is, did she kill? Or did she assist? Or did she encourage? Or did she command? So, in other words, this charge is saying they're not sure what happened.

but yet they want you to be sure so that's the challenge here for you is you're going to be given all these alternatives and you're going to have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt so what's he saying he is saying okay you are going to hear allegations about chat you're going to hear allegations about Alex Cox Lori's deceased brother who it seems the evidence is pointing to being the person that actually carried out the killings, but just because the evidence is strong against these men, doesn't mean that it is strong against Lori. This is about what she allegedly did, not them. This may have been her husband.

This may have been her brother. It doesn't mean she's complicit. And I think what more importantly, Archibald is saying, is that, look, the prosecution has charged Lori under a number of different theories, particularly with the murder charge. the jury could say she aided, the jury could say she compelled, the jury could say she encouraged, and look, if they find that any of that exists, then yes, she could be found guilty of murder. However, this jury has to find that she did this beyond a reasonable doubt, our highest legal standard. And by giving the jury so many options, it's saying, jury, the prosecutors

aren't even sure of what really happened here, but they're asking you to be sure. In my opinion, I think that's a good point by the defense. Okay, so now with all of that in mind, let's listen to some of the cross-examination of the prosecution witnesses, and we will start with lead detective Ray Hermaccio. Now, he would explain the intricacies of the investigation, how the bodies of the kids were discovered. I will tell you, went into graphic detail of that.

It was very not easy to hear. And, of course, how investigators ultimately targeted Lorraine Chab. But what the defense did was highlight what authorities don't have. Jumping back to the autopsy, you indicate that you were there when JJ's autopsy was done. Was there any trace evidence collected on that particular day on June 11th from the autopsy? We stood in the back. The medical examiner didn't let us get too up close. with uh he had his team working around jay so i wasn't directly involved with the autopsy

so i can't answer to that i just observed okay at any time later after the autopsy was done did you take trace evidence off of jj's body i did not know personally okay do you know anybody who did i do not know personally anybody that did okay you ended you ended getting a warrant the next day is that right that's correct and you found some guns and some magazines and some other paraphernalia uh when i say paraphernalia i mean like weaponry paraphernalia stuff like that you understand correct uh did you at any time during the investigation And was there anything that led you to believe that Lori Valo or Lori Debo was involved in having those weapons or own those weapons?

No, sir. So how much ties back to Lori, right? This is just an example. They may have searched the garage, but none of those instruments are hers. I believe what the ultimate theme here and what they're ultimately trying to show is a lack of forensic evidence directly tying back to Lori Valo Daybell. And look, that lack of forensic evidence can hurt a process. prosecution's case. And when you think about this case, really, it is very much a circumstantial

evidence case. It's mostly based on Lori Valo Daybill's eerie, questionable, arguably incriminating comments regarding the kids and Tammy, her allegedly lying, her refusing to turn the kids over, her asking her friend to lie for her, the questionable timeline like Lori and Chad getting married two weeks after Tammy's death. Could a jury convict based on all of that? Sure. Yes. But again, how much do these comments and action show she conspired to kill and or was a direct principle in the killings and that brings me to another important point and that is regarding the death of tammy daybell with regards to the death of tammy daybell um tammy davil died on october the 19th 2019 as far as you know right yes sir okay um and you know where lori daybel was

on October the 19th, or I'm sorry, at that time, she was Lori Valo. Do you know where Lori Valo was on October the 19th, 2019? I do. Where was she? Hawaii. Okay. Um, so she wasn't anywhere near Tammy Daveo when Tammy Debel died? That's correct.

And this is consistent with what Jim Archibold said in his opening statement that Lori was in her apartment when the kids were killed at Alex Coffey. boxes apart. This is all an alibi defense. Now, while a defendant doesn't necessarily have to be present at the crime scene to be found guilty of murder, or in Tammy's case, conspiracy to commit murder, by the way, all you need for conspiracy is really an agreement to kill and someone as part of this agreement takes overt steps in furtherance of that plot. And for the murder of the kids, you don't have to actually be physically present at the crime scene. You could have encouraged or compelled someone to do it.

Nonetheless, Lori not being there could support the defense's argument that she wasn't a part of Tammy Daybell's death or even the kids' deaths. Okay. Time to move on to Melanie Gibb, a crucial prosecution witness.

Lori Valo DeBel's former best friend, former, because she provided devastating testimony about Lori's warped beliefs about Lori, thinking J.J. and Tammy were possessed, that Lori asked her to lie to police about J.J.'s whereabouts? That Alex Cox told her, you don't want to know when asked about what happened to JJ. So when it was time to cross-examine Melanie Gibb, the defense team really tried to hit upon her credibility. Ms. Gibb, you've met with the prosecution

on several occasions over the last couple of years, right? Correct. Okay. What was the last time you met with him? A few years ago, I don't remember. I don't remember a few years ago. So you didn't meet with him in preparation for this trial today? Not physically.

What does that mean? I didn't meet face-to-face with them. I met on Zoom, but I was thinking about when I met with the officers down there. That's what I'm referring to. Okay. Sorry, I wasn't thinking of just the interactions I had with Lindsay on Zoom. I was just thinking about an interaction I had physically with them. What was the last interaction you had with either Ms. Blake or one of the other prosecutors?

It was... I'm trying to remember what month it was. Was it end of March, beginning of April, I believe? So this month? It could have been the very end of last month. Okay. And did you go over your testimony with them? Yes.

Okay. And prior to that, when was the time before that that you met with the prosecution? It felt like it was back in Chandler, like, whatever, a year or two. I don't remember how long it's been now. It's been a while. Okay. When you went over this with, you said Ms. Blake, is that right? Correct.

And when you went over your testimony with her, were you as forgetful as you've been today? Yes. Now, it seems to me the questions are, how much does she really remember about what happened? And maybe they're saying, is she a manufactured prosecution witness that will just say what she wants them to say? That's my take. Later on, defense attorney John Thomas also appeared to try to downplay the insidious names. nature of some of the religious beliefs and practices and statements of Lori Valladaybel, and that includes the practice of casting, something that Lori and Melanie participated in

to remove dark spirits from the body. Now, prosecutors are suggesting that this all goes towards Lori's twisted religious justification for killing those around her, but as Thomas seemingly tries to point out, maybe this is all more benign. And I believe you indicated something about disconnecting cords or trying to convinced the spirit to leave the body? Yes. And it was all done with prayer? I think you couldn't call it prayer.

It's my best word. Okay. You're praying to God or your Heavenly Father to try to help you to get this evil spirit out of this person or heal this person or do something like that. Is that right? That's where you were going with that? Yes. Okay. Because I don't want to put any words in your mouth. I just, okay. Let's talk about zombies. So there, you had heard Lori use the term zombie, right?

Correct. This wasn't the first time that you've heard the word zombie, right? Well, it's a nation worldwide word, correct? Right, and it's been around for a while, at least the 1960s from what I can see, right? I believe so. I don't know when it started, but you've heard it growing up. Yeah, yeah. Okay. When Lori talked about zombies, did you immediately think that they were going to die?

No, no. Okay. What were your thoughts about that? It was a bizarre teaching. I believe Lori thought it was bizarre at first, too. It was very something she'd never heard of in the context of how it was explained to her through Chad. And as they continue to strike at the credibility of key prosecution witnesses, that brings us to Zilema Pestanis. Zulema is the widow of Lori's deceased brother Alex Cox.

And she would testify that Lori told her JJ was going to have a short life. This is before he was actually killed, that Lori insinuated Tammy Daybell died because she and Chad received instructions on how to cast demons out. Zulema said that Alex told her he was afraid he was going to be Lori and Chad's fall guy before he died. Zulema even said that on the night that someone tried to shoot Tammy DeVell. Yeah, someone tried to shoot Tammy. She survived. Zulema says that she overheard an angry Lori on the phone saying,

Idiot can't do anything right by himself, maybe in reference to Alex Cox. So anyway, Zlema was an important witness for the prosecution to say the least. Now, what did the defense do when they have? an opportunity to cross-examine her? Well, it seems to me they're saying, hmm, can she really be trusted when she herself has some wild beliefs? Would you please tell us a little bit about some of your spiritual experiences while you're in the temple? Would you like me to relate anything in specific that you are referring to? Sure. One of the ones was specifically on 12-4-2018. It says, hi, Chad, this is a lemma. I have to

tell you that since you gave me that blessing, I've been having visions full awake, no more dreams. My visions have been at the temple. I've had three so far. Do you recall that? So tell me a little bit about some of those visions. Judge, I'm going to object again about the specific visions. I'm not seeing their relevance about her visions unless they relate to Chad and Lori. Sure. Thank you. I am not exactly sure,

specifically, which, visions he would be, that I was referring to at the time, I mean, I can explain one that I remember, I remember seeing myself in a beautiful room with a big table, and I was sitting at the head of the table, and there was all these children or people sitting. It was a very large table, and that's what I saw. And there was a man sitting on the other end? Yes.

Okay. And you couldn't see his face, but he was a godlike being? Yes, a very light being. Look, my guess is they're trying to show that she herself may not be the most reliable narrator. But I also do wonder if the defense is suggesting that Chad's influence on those around and was so powerful that maybe they believed whatever he said and that maybe Lori was deceived by Chad and lied to from Chad about what was really going on with the kids. I don't know.

That might be a little bit of a stretch. We'll see how this ties up later on in the case. But I believe like they did with Melanie Gibb earlier in the case through Zulema, the defense is trying to downplay the evil nature of Lori's beliefs. particularly what happens at these casting sessions. But yes, while they're trying to rid a body of dark spirits, that doesn't make someone a murderer. When you are doing these castings,

and I, is that what they were called? Is that what you call them just castings? Yes. Okay. They were done spiritually, not physically. Am I right about that? Correct. Okay.

You never physically harmed anyone or attempted to harm anyone, right? Correct. You were attempting to spiritually harm or bind the spirit of that particular person, right? Correct. Okay. You were, I guess I want to use the word light worker or someone who works for, who was working. Any spiritual room for the lighter side?

Does that make sense to you? Yes. Okay. And this was, you didn't think that this was anything evil or anything bad? No. Okay. Not at the time. But you've since then come to think that it was evil or bad?

There are two children that have died and a mother of five that have died. I will consider that evil, yes, sir. Okay, and you believe that you were casting out of spirits had some direct effect on two children that died and the spouse of another person that died? My belief is that... I'm sorry, that's just a yes or no question. Objection as, it should be allowed to answer.

And I think that counsel can handle that on redirect. So, to my recollection, what you're saying is you believe that your work on casting had a direct effect on the two children that died and the spouse of the person died that died. not my work but chad and lorry's work did i think the point defense attorney john thomas is trying to make is you can't just assume that if lorry was a part of this she's responsible for what happened to the kids and tammy daybel and again is zulema someone the jury really should believe based on her own practices and thoughts that's my takeaway now let's move on to another big witness for the state Colby Ryan. Colby Ryan is the sole surviving son of Lori Valo Debel from a prior relationship.

He testified how his mother wouldn't tell him really what was going on when the kids were missing. There was a phone call that was played between him and Lori while she was in jail where she is laughing when talking about the kids, the dead kids, and how she says, you don't know what happened, you don't understand. She's seemingly throwing a lot of religious justification in there. It is a wild call where he's basically. outright accusing her of being a murderer and she won't say what happened. We actually covered this on a previous sidebar.

I encourage everybody to listen to that. So once again, on cross-examination, the defense, specifically Jim Archibald, honed in on Colby Ryan's credibility. And you wrote a book since this case started. Is that true? Yes. And the book is called The God Over Odds. Does that sound right?

Yes. And what is the purpose of your book? It's my testimony. About how Jesus loves you? About how he got me through my life. And so Jesus is a good figure in your life? Yes. Not someone who would wreak damage to others.

No. You also appeared on some media stations, is that right? Yes. Some on YouTube? Yes. Was that your God over Odds Media Company? No. Okay.

Is that still an ongoing concern, the media company? Not it right now, no. Okay. And then you did a docu-series, is that right? Were you paid for that? No. Okay. And in this docu-series, let me read this quote, and you tell me if that's what you said.

My mom has spent her whole life protecting us kids. Yes. After she met Chad Jay, after she met Chad Daybell, she changed. I don't remember, but yes. Okay. And so those were the, this, you don't remember, but in that docu-series, could you said it, could have said that? Yes.

So it seems to me that the argument that could be coming from the defense is whether Colby Ryan is benefiting from this case and his position. against his mother. Jim Archibald then continues, and he's seemingly humanizing his client, Lori Valladaybill, that she was a good mom and a good person. Did your mother, Lori, help you and Tiley with thoughts of lack of self-worth? Yes. Was your mother supportive of your decision to go on a mission and then to come home from a mission? Yes.

Did she teach you about Jesus? Yes. Did you and your mother sing songs about Jesus? At church. Did your mother teach you to believe in Jesus? She built a foundation. And did she teach you about multiple lives. Did you ever hear that from her?

No. Did she teach you about zombies? No. Did she teach you about casting out evil spirits? No. You never once thought your mom would hurt someone. Is that fair to say? Yes. Did, did you love your mom? Yes. Did she love you? I think so. Reversing the narrative. A lot has been made about Lori Valo-Daybell, did this change the jurors' impressions of her and what they have heard about her?

Maybe her beliefs are not as nefarious as the prosecution would have you believe. Maybe she's not the person to kill her kids. I will say it's a bit tough to fully decipher what the defense has been doing in this case. This wall was my best crack at making sense of it. But hey, we still got a lot more trial to go and a lot more can happen. That's all we have for you here on side. Bye Bar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. Thank you.