Law&Crime Sidebar - Alec Baldwin Charged in 'Rust' Fatal Shooting — The Story So Far

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

Actor Alec Baldwin and armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed are facing involuntary manslaughter charges in connection to the shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during the filming of "Rust." The Law&Crime Network's Jesse Weber and Angenette Levy break down the story so far with armorer Steve Wolf.LAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Logan HarrisGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. views shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. I do have some very unfortunate is to tell you. She didn't make it. So Joel's still at the hospital. other prisoners involved didn't make him. Actor Alec Baldwin will be criminally charged in connection with the Rust movie set shooting. Reaction and analysis with Law and Crime Network's Angenet Levy and veteran Hollywood armorer Steve Wolfe. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

We are covering the announcement out of New Mexico that actor Alec Baldwin, as well as armor Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, will each be charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter for the shooting on the film set Rust. Now, the New Mexico first judicial district attorney announced in a written statement that Baldwin and Reed will be charged in the alternative with the two counts of manslaughter, meaning that a jury would decide not simply if they were guilty, but under which definition of involuntary manslaughter they were guilty of. So let's explain that a little bit more. So the first charge of manslaughter, it is a fourth degree felony, and there has to be some

underlying negligence. And if convicted, the punishment can be up to 18 months in jail and a $5,000 fine. This charge also includes the misdemeanor charge of negligent use of a firearm, but usually that'll just be merged into that top count. Now, let's talk about the second charge of manslaughter. So this is another theory that a jury could go with. So under this involuntary manslaughter charge, this is involuntary manslaughter in the commission of a lawful act, which is also a fourth degree felony, but this requires proof that there

has to be more than simple negligence. Now, this carries something else that not only 18 months in jail and a $5,000 fine, but there is a firearm enhancement. Now, what does that mean? That means that if the jury convicts Alec Baldwin of this charge, there is a mandatory five years in jail. That is why this is the more serious count when you think about it. Now, assistant director David Halls, he's somebody that you heard of in this situation. He signed a plea agreement for the the charge of negligent use of a deadly weapon. So this includes a suspended sentence and six months of probation. What this signifies, at least to me, is that he could possibly be a cooperating

witness who would testify against Baldwin and Gutierrez Reed. Now, just a quick backstory on this case. We go back to October, Rust, New Mexico, cinematographer Helena Hutchins was killed and director Joel Susie injured when during a rehearsal, a live round was fired out of a gun that was held by Alec Baldwin. Now, Baldwin has maintained that he didn't pull. the trigger of the Colt 45, and he doesn't know how a live round got into the gun. I take the gun out in the rehearsal, where he wants it very dramatic and very sort of

sneak up on them. I take the gun out, and then as I take it clears, as a barrel clears, turn and cock the gun. I turn and cock the gun. The gun goes off. It's supposed to be a cold gun. Nothing. Joel is my friend. I'm one of the producers on this movie. We've developed this movie together for three years. I left my wife and six kids in New York to come here for a month to shoot this movie and I'm the one that shot the gun today that had a live bullet go through that woman's body

and into his body and I need to know how did that happen? Where did that bullet come from? But the post-mortem report which was signed by the New Mexico chief medical examiner determined that this was an accident and that there was quote

no compelling demonstration that the firearm was intentionally loaded with live ammunition. Now despite Alec Baldwin saying to the media that he didn't pull the trigger and all of that, the FBI actually concluded that it was not possible that the gun could have been fired without pulling the trigger. Now, in the aftermath of the shooting, there was a lot of legal action that happened. Baldwin sued Gutierrez Reed and Dave Halls. Reed sued the film's gun and ammunition supplier and the founder of the company,

alleging serious wrongdoing. A script supervisor sued Alec Baldwin, Helena Hutchins and Hutchins family sued for wrongful death. against Baldwin and others that were involved in this incident. And the terms of that were actually never revealed. That was ultimately settled. And also I should mention that the New Mexico Environment Department's Occupational Health and Safety Bureau issued a maximum fine against the company behind the film as well. And now we have these potential charges.

They haven't officially been charged. This is more of an announcement that they will be charged. So let me bring in Long Crime Correspondent, my co-host here on Sidebar, Anginette Levy. And we are also joined by veteran Hollywood Armour, Steve Wolfe, It's great to have you both here and, Jeanette, I'm going to start with you. Let's start with the responses from this announcement. Can you give us a list of who has spoken out, who has issued statements in response to this?

Well, Jesse, we have three statements that have been released, one from Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, one from Alec Baldwin, and of course, one from Matt Hutchins, the husband, the widower of Helena Hutchins, the woman, the cinematographer who was killed that day back in 2021. It's really terrible. Let's start with Helena Hutchinson's statement from her husband Matt or her statement of her husband, Matt. It reads, we want to thank the Santa Fe Sheriff and the district attorney for concluding their thorough investigation and determining that charges for involuntary manslaughter are warranted for the killing of Helena Hutchins with conscious disregard for human life. Our independent investigation also supports charges are warranted. It is a comfort to the family that in New Mexico, no one is above the law. We fully cooperate with the prosecution and will fervently hope the justice system works to protect the public and hold accountable those who break the law. The next statement comes from the attorneys for Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the armorer who will be facing a charge.

It reads, Hannah is and has always been very emotional and sad about this tragic accident, but she did not commit involuntary manslaughter. These charges are the result of a very flawed investigation and an inaccurate understanding of the full facts. We intend to bring the full truth to light and believe Hannah will be exonerated of wrongdoing by a jury. And then finally, Alec Baldwin, the actor, the person who actually fired the shot that day. He says, this decision distorts Helena Hutchinson's tragic death and represents a terrible miscarriage of justice. Mr. Baldwin had no reason to believe there was a live bullet in the gun or anywhere on the movie set. He relied on the professionals with whom he worked, who assured him the gun did not have live rounds. We will fight these charges and we will win.

That comes through a statement by his attorney. Yeah. So, Steve, I want to get your perspective on this. Are you surprised by the charges against Alec Baldwin and Hanni Gutierrez-Reed? I'm not at all surprised by these charges. And I did recommend to the special prosecutor that these charges be filed. Why is that? This was, in my opinion, a case of gross negligence.

Any use of firearms in any circumstance carries risks. Guns are inherently dangerous. If they weren't dangerous, they wouldn't be effective. And given that you're using a firearm and you're displaying it around people, there's a very, very high burden of safety placed on everyone on the set. If you have a gun, there's a possibility someone could get shot. We all know that. So there should be no surprise that this accident happened when established gun safety protocols were ignored. They had an armorer.

Where was she? Did Mr. Baldwin know that he had an armorer and that she wasn't there? then why did he take the gun from the first AD? He may as well have been taking it from the craft services caterer. I mean, Mr. Halls has no bearing to decide whether a gun is cold or not, because he's not the armorer. And Mr. Baldwin knew that. So really, everything that Mr. Baldwin says, in my opinion, deepens the hole for him. And saying, like, we're going to fight that.

Well, yes, when criminal charges are filed, you have to fight it. Otherwise, you're guilty and you'd go right to jail. So, like, that's also a non-statement. Steve, just interrupt for a second. You were called by the special prosecutor in this case? Yes, I had a conversation with Ms. Reeb. She outlined some of the details of the case. I was obviously already quite familiar with it.

And she asked if, in my opinion, criminal charges were warranted and against who? And I unequivocally said criminal charges are warranted. A death occurred needlessly as a result of ignoring known safety protocols. That's why Helena is dead. and that everyone who was in the chain of command, whether they belonged there or not, had criminal liability. And Janette, I'm going to go back to you for a second, because why now? The reason I say that, as I mentioned, the charges haven't been officially filed. When the charges are filed, the DA mentioned, that is when the paperwork will be filed.

That is when we'll understand what the evidence is. Why did they decide to ultimately pursue charges against Alec Baldwin and Hannah Gutierrez-Reed? We know that there was a sheriff's report that came out, I believe, over 500 pages. But we do not know the reasoning behind the charging decision yet. Why do you think it happened now based everything that's come out? We've heard a lot in this case. This case has been going on for over a year. So we know that there were text messages.

They downloaded the contents of Alec Baldwin's phone. There's a lot that went into this investigation. So the sheriff's officials who investigated this had to have looked through not only text messages, reports from the FBI firearms lab. They said that gun could not have just gone off. off, it was fully functioning. So there is something there that possibly we don't know about that led the DA and the special prosecutor to conclude that charges are in fact warranted. So I think we need to wait and see what those charging documents say. The DA is promising that it will have information

in there that shows why they believe criminal charges are warranted in this case. And I think we're all expecting that. I found it unusual. She announced the charges will be filed instead of just filing them and having an announcement or putting it on Facebook and having a press conference. So I'd be interested to know why she took this route. I would be interested to know as well. And I'll tell you, I think those text messages are going to be interesting because if there's anything after the fact that suggests communications between Baldwin and others that he, well, let me a phrase, even anything before then that there was safety concerns on set,

that shows he had the knowledge there was a problem and didn't take the proper precautions before holding the gun. And then anything after that would suggest, yeah, you know, what I might have actually pulled the trigger. Now, of course, I'm speculating, but those are the kind of things that we'd really like to wonder if they have. Now, I want to go back to you, Steve.

You had mentioned the fighting, right? I believe that if this goes to trial, that this is going to be a battle of the experts. And what I mean by that is you might have somebody in Baldwin's camp pushing forward experts, armor experts to say, well, you know, it's possible that the gun could have gone off without pulling the trigger.

It's possible that you maybe just cocking it, it could have gone off. I'm going to ask you two questions. A, what's your response to that? And B, do you know anybody in the industry that would believe that and could be a potential witness, an expert for Alec Baldwin? That would, of course, depend entirely on the expert witness budget. However, for anybody upholding an ethical standard, no, that is not plausible.

Could it happen? Yes, we could potentially, we could land on the sun at some point, you know, when that technology exists. But right now, based on the FBI examination of the firearm, there was nothing wrong with that firearm. And so I do believe when Mr. Baldwin says that he did not press the trigger, that what he means is he did not intentionally press the trigger. But on a gun like this, if your finger is resting on the trigger and you pull the hammer back and release it, the gun will still fire. The FBI confirmed that. So I don't think that the timing of the charges, the presence or lack of

text messages, where the live ammo came from, I don't think any of these things are really relevant to the case. What's relevant is that he pointed a gun at someone and that that person died. It's a very low standard in New Mexico for establishing this manslaughter charge and all of the elements of the case, you know, brought against him, are met, in my opinion. You know, I think there's a lot of extraneous data being thrown around around the case, but it essentially comes down to the first rule of gun safety. All guns are always loaded unless you yourself have personally verified that the gun is not loaded. And then it may be handled as such. And that still doesn't allow you to ignore the rule that you never point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy.

So he broke, you know, two key rules of gun safety. And that's why Helena is dead. Text messages, previous stuff. Yes, you know, it may be, you know, it may create a flavor around the case, you know, contributing environment. But that's not what killed her. What killed her is that he took a gun from someone who had no business handing it to him, who did not check the gun but told him it was a cold gun, who he knew was a,

not an armorer, nor did he look inside the gun himself. And I am quite sure that if the scene was a suicide scene or contemplated suicide scene and the scene called for him to point the gun in his head, that gun would have been checked. He would have taken different measures than he did when he was pointing the gun at someone else. So, Ann Jeanette, you know what I found interesting, who wasn't charged? The supplier of the ammunition wasn't criminally charged here. And the reason that's important is because if you can speak about this, didn't Ms. Gutierrez-Reed place the blame or make allegations against the supplier? Because we know that that round that went through Helena Hutchins and into Mr. Sousa, that was not the only live round on

that set. I think there were four other rounds or maybe five other rounds that were on that set as well. So what can you tell us and can you speak a little bit more about their role in this and what the allegations she made? Because after listening to these criminal charges and they're not being charged, I'm wondering if there's any even merit to that anymore. I think that that was always some type of deflection. And I know there's actually no charges filed at this point. We haven't had a trial. But when that happened, her attorney actually was on the Today Show suggesting that this was a sabotage or somebody planted this live round there. I mean, there were all these kind of things thrown out there as possible explanations. And they were

claiming that the person who supplied the ammunition, as you said, may have put live rounds. in the dummy rounds. But ultimately what it comes down to is the fact that this was on her. You know, she's the armorer. She's the person in charge. Alec Baldwin had the gun in his hand. He is the producer of the film. It's also, he has a duty too to make sure he's handling that firearm properly. So even though she's the armorer and he was told it was a cold gun, you're still handling a firearm. I think that there's a lot of cold water that's been poured on this whole, oh, well, the live rounds got mixed in with the dummy rounds or what have you because it's ultimately on her to determine that the gun is safe, that it only has dummy rounds in it, and that's it. We still need to

know how those live rounds got in there because everybody we've talked to, Steve can talk about this. You're never supposed to have live ammo on a movie set anywhere around it. Yeah. So Steve, I mean, that's the part that I'm curious about as well. I mentioned, you know, David Halls has taken this kind of plea agreement. I imagine he's going to testify. against both of them. But are we going to ever understand how the live rounds got on that set? Maybe we will. And it definitely doesn't matter. Live rounds exist in the world and therefore they could turn up anywhere. And that's why, you know, they're not frisking everyone who comes in and running them all through medical detectors to see if live rounds made it to the set. Because, you know,

people do break the rules. We know that happens. And that's why we have these final buck stops here rules which require that we check the gun and we check the ammo before we put it in an actor's hands that's what hannah that's what the hannah was hired to do and that she didn't do and why i think that she that also has criminal liability here she didn't do her job but she may have been told not to do her job by being double booked in multiple capacities on that set and they told her We're just doing a rehearsal. We don't need you. Go fold laundry or something.

So she may have been listening to her boss when she wasn't there, but she was also showing a dereliction of duty by not being there and leaving the guns in other people's hands. So I think she definitely has liability there. And how these rounds came to be there, obviously, they were mixed in. I mean, the supplier of the ammo sent combination boxes where there were live rounds mixed in with dummy rounds. They did not shake test them all as they claimed that they did. Otherwise, the live rounds wouldn't have been there. But again, where it came from doesn't

matter. There is a safety checkpoint that's supposed to be in the armorer where she's supposed to shake test every round before it's loaded. And if they're just rehearsing, then she should be there making sure that the gun is emptied with nothing in it, not even dummy rounds. Two quick follow-ups about that, Steve. One, are you saying live rounds sometimes do appear on movie sets? It's just a common occurrence. And two, if you can briefly just walk us through, because I think this is really going to help our listeners and viewers, briefly walk us through what the protocol should have been, from, you know, how the gun is picked up, how the gun, the bullets put in, what Alec Baldwin should have done, just real quickly what the proper process should have been.

Starting with the first question, how could live rounds be on a movie set? Well, when you're shooting in New Mexico, New Mexico is a right to carry state and right to carry extends to your workplace, unless your workplace, you know, says otherwise. but people have a right to have a firearm on them for personal protection, especially on a movie set where there's celebrities and you never know what crazies are going to show up. So having live ammo, there's nothing wrong with that. Not checking the gun that you put in an actor's hand is absolutely gross negligence, in my opinion. The way it's supposed to work is the armorer takes the gun.

In this case, they would open the port here. They would then rotate the cylinder here and make sure that, there's nothing in any of these cylinders here. I'm sorry if my finger's in the way there. All right. So you could see that, right, as we rotate through here, examining the port that there's nothing in there. So that's the first thing that you do.

If there's going to be ammo on the set, then you pick up each round and you shake it. Right, so you shake these rounds and you'll hear a little BB rattling around in there if it is a dummy round. You won't hear anything, or you might feel the powder if you're very sensitive, if it's a live round.

But if you don't check them, you have no idea what kind of round it is. The amount of expertise it takes to know if this is live or not is possessed by every six-month-old baby who takes a rattle and shakes it. And here's click-click-click-click-click, right? So no spectral expertise is there, but you do have to do it.

And if Alec took a gun from someone who had no business handing it to him, knew that this person was not an armor, was not the armor he hired, then it doesn't matter what they say. You shouldn't listen to them because they're not in the chain of command on that gun. Like I said, it's as if the caterer said cold gun. Who cares? They have an armorer. Let them do their job and listen to them. Make sure the rounds are checked. Then with no break in custody, after the gun has been checked by the armor, it's placed in the hands of the actor. The armorer watches the whole time to make sure that the gun is being handled safely to make sure that the actor doesn't put rounds in them of any

nature. So you maintain a constant visual chain of command to make sure that there's no possibility for ammo getting into the gun. Then they do their scene, whether it's rehearsal or they're filming. And then the gun is pointed down to the ground. The armor walks over. They take the gun. They check it again. And then they return it to a secure location where it's locked up until it's need it again. That's the chain of command. And if you watched Alec Baldwin's 2020 interview, he described exactly what that process looks like, how he was scolded by professional armorers when he mishandled firearms. And he knew that none of that happened. None of the things that he knew were the proper protocols were executed. He could not have not known that. All right,

before we wrap up, and Jen, I want to throw it to you now. What are the next steps in this case? The next step is that Hannah Gutierrez-Reed will get a charge filed against her, as will will, Alec Baldwin, involuntary manslaughter charges. So we will be watching for that to happen before the end of the month, as the DA said it would. We'll be looking for the documents related to those charges. And I'll be looking to see if these cases are resolved in some way other than through a trial. Alec Baldwin and Hannah Gutierrez read, their attorneys can say they are going to fight this. But the facts are the facts. And we may be learning some new information when those charges are filed, we know basically what happened on that set. It's whether or not they can be proven guilty

beyond a reasonable doubt of committing a crime. So I think that we should look for the charges to be filed and then possibly to move through the courts and maybe a resolution other than a trial. Yeah, one thing to add there. So after those charges, we're expecting a first appearance, which could happen virtually, then there would be a preliminary hearing. That's very important because that's when the actual prosecution presents their evidence against Baldwin and Ms. Gutierrez-Reed and whether or not to question there's enough probable cause to move forward. So that's going to be, I mean, their first attempt to really try to fight this and get this case dismissed. So we will cover it as best as we can here on the Long Crime Network and here on Sidebar.

Steve and Jeanette, thank you both for taking the time. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jesse. And that's all we have for you, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us here on Sidebar. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube. wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wonderry Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.