Law&Crime Sidebar - Andrew Tate Pushes for Freedom from House Arrest as Trafficking Case Progresses

Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

Starting point is 00:00:35 will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. I'm an extremely successful man and my time is valuable and you're wasting mine, yours, and everybody else's. Social media star Andrew Tate back in the news as he tries to fight his house arrest, files a lawsuit against one of his accusers, and gets into hot water over online comments. Defense attorney and former prosecutor,

Starting point is 00:01:10 Kathleen Bogan Shoots, comes on to break down the latest developments. Hey, are you looking for some more true crime content? Are you an armchair detective? It's okay. A lot of us are. Well, if you haven't already, you got to check out the True Crime Garage podcast, which is probably going to be your next binge listen.

Starting point is 00:01:28 Why? Well, each week, the garage guys cover a new case featuring missing persons cases, cold cases, solve stories, and serial killer profiles, all while sitting back and having a drink or two. What's better than that? Now, you can listen to the True Crime Garage podcast on Apple, Spotify, and all of the best podcast listening apps. For more information, you can go to Truecrime Garage.com. All right, let's get into the latest on the Andrew Tate case, which we've been following. Tate is a former professional kickboxer and self-help guru, a social media star or influencer, who was arrested in December of last year out in Romania.

Starting point is 00:02:06 In June, he and his brother Tristan were charged with rape, human trafficking, informing a criminal gang to exploit women. Two Romanian women have also been criminally charged as well as part of this plot, as part of this conspiracy. And the Romanian investigative agency, Directorate for Investigating Organized Crime and Terrorism, Ecott said through a webcam business that was owned by the Tate Brothers, these defendants, quote, created an organized crime group with the purpose of recruiting, housing, and exploiting women

Starting point is 00:02:34 by forcing them to create pornographic content meant to be seen on specialized websites for a cost. Reporting indicates that there are seven alleged victims who were lured under false pretenses of love where they were sexually exploited, like being forced into pornography and subjected to physical abuse, intimidation, surveillance. Those are kind of what the allegations are. And for anybody who's been following this case, particularly here on Sidebar, you know that there has been a battle over where the Tate brothers are, where are they detained. Right now, it's a question of whether or not they should be currently still on house arrest. I want to bring in criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, Kathleen Bogan Schutz, to talk about this. Kathleen, great to see you.

Starting point is 00:03:16 Thanks for coming here on Sidebar. So this is quite the back and forth. So Tate and his brother, they were locked up in a Romanian jail for, I believe, three months, all their illegal efforts to be released, failed. Then they won a ruling and appeal. They were released on house arrest. That's been going on for several months. It was just extended by another 30 days, my understanding is.

Starting point is 00:03:39 And now it seems that Andrew Taiton and his brother Tristan have gone to a Romanian court appealing this prior decision to extend their house arrest from two weeks ago. I know you're not an expert in Romanian law, but in your expertise and in your general knowledge of this case and criminal law. The chances that this works based on everything you've seen, the chances that they can get off of house arrest. So the purpose of pretrial release conditions and of bond, bail, house arrest, pre-trial in most Western democratic legal systems is to ensure that the person is, one, not a danger to others. Two, doesn't maybe continue committing crimes, and three, that they return to court for their trial date and further.

Starting point is 00:04:34 It's my understanding that he has some pretty significant, he has some pretty significant monetary reserves. And I don't know if he has any ties in areas where he may not be able to be extradited. But the fact of the matter is, there's such serious charges. And many of your viewers might not realize this, but plenty of human trafficking organizations tend to have some kind of female involvement, too. Because otherwise, how would you lure somebody in? A woman sees another woman. She feels comfortable.

Starting point is 00:05:10 So in other words, without knowing more facts of this case, you're saying that the two women that have also been charged, that might be why they could be an instrumental part of this case. Yes. Frankly, it's not unusual at all. And I hate to break everyone's hearts to see a mother or an aunt or something like that, someone that a woman trusts somehow get her involved in this. So there has to be, it's highly unlikely that, you know, your average female is going to get in a car with a guy she doesn't know. But she might get him with a woman. I guess the question I have is, is when I think about the house arrest, it seems like, you know, he's being detained, there was a period where he was being detained without being formally charged. Then he was formally charged. In your experience, I've seen it myself, there have people been accused of sexual assault and rape, and they're out. They're not on house arrest. They're out on bail. With sex trafficking, with human trafficking, people who are charged with those crimes? Are they typically on house arrest? Do they typically make bail? What do you see usually? So in my jurisdiction, they can be held without bail. And generally, what we will see is something called an Arthur hearing, in which you try to show that either the state's evidence is weaker than the judge might like to see in order to hold them. In Florida, it's called proof-evident presumption great that you have proof-evident presumption great. But even if a judge

Starting point is 00:06:40 were to find that, you could find that this person is not a risk. to the community on bond or on house arrest or otherwise released. So the fact of the matter is he's so, he's said some things online that to me are not helpful to his cause. You know, it's, I think he's well known for being incredibly misogynastic. And he hasn't, in fact, stopped saying mean things about women since he's been on house arrest. Let's talk about that because this just happened. So Andrew Tate responded to an image that 52-year-old Amanda Holden of Britain's Got Talent Fame, she posted

Starting point is 00:07:22 this on Twitter. It was a picture of her in a black two-piece bathing suit. And he writes, quote, you are a wife and a mother and you're far past a teenager. There is no need for this post. Now, he is certainly entitled to his opinion and it is on brand with respect to his views on women, but can it actually hurt him legally? Can a judge look at that and say, this is now another reason why you need to be further detained or your detention to be extended? Well, I don't know too much about his terms of release, but certainly when he, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:55 if he was holding somebody hostage and putting them on only fans, you'd imagine that maybe there might be some restrictions on his internet use. So the fact that he went ahead and posted a comment on the internet is a pretty good indicator that, yes, he was. was on the internet. So I, it's difficult to do anything without the internet these days. I doubt he had a total block on it. But it's, it's incredibly stupid. If he were my client, I'd probably spend quite a bit of time yelling at him. I don't, I don't think there's been any restrictions put on his, his internet use. And I guess it's interesting because if he makes his living or significant portion of his living on social media, would he be restricted from doing that if it's a form

Starting point is 00:08:38 with income. But I, in your experience, it seems like he, imagine this happened in America, he would have a First Amendment right to say what he wants, to post what he wants. I can't imagine that it being used against him in this kind of case. I mean, it's not like it's, let's say, for example, he was in a defamation case and he was being sued by this woman. And then that's like further, even, I don't even think that would classify, but statements like that being used against them. I don't think it furthers whether or not he's guilty of these crimes. It's, it does, it feels unrelated. I just can't tell from like a PR point of view. That's one thing. But from a legal point of view, you know, I don't see it being that significant. Oh, so yeah, talk to me

Starting point is 00:09:23 about that in terms of, yeah, that could be a problem. Yeah. So women make up, what is it, 51, 52% of the population. And you don't necessarily want to insult 52% of your jury. jury pool on your way into the courthouse. So that would be my larger issue. Can't you just keep your mouth shut through a little bit? I will tell you my understanding is that in Romania there are no juries. It's a judge, but a judge could be affected by this. Oh, sure.

Starting point is 00:09:52 Yeah. I mean, what do you have a coin flip chance that there's a female judge? I just think it's not helpful. If there is a way for him to lie low from a PR perspective, I mean, these more charges have come out of the woodwork and he just. seems, I mean, there's some people that just like attention. Well, if he makes his living off of it, and as I said, it's on brand, I can understand why he's doing it. He received a ton of backlash from her supporters for the comments that

Starting point is 00:10:17 he made. I do want to ask you about this. So he's facing these charges, him and his brother, and they have filed a lawsuit. And they filed a lawsuit claiming that one of the victims falsely accused him of imprisoning her in Romania, and that led to his arrest. Now, it's against the woman, her parents, another woman who lived in the brothers' Romanian estate, and a male friend of the woman. And this lawsuit seeking at least $5 million, according to the Associated Press, the brothers claim that the five Florida residents conspired to falsely accuse them of human trafficking and rape, costing them, quote, their freedom and millions of dollars in income from their lucrative social media podcasting and business ventures. I think it's really interesting filing a lawsuit against someone for the criminal charges that you,

Starting point is 00:11:03 face. Have you ever seen that before? I have not seen it done at the time of the criminal trial, mostly because it could subject him to deposition and discovery. And given, as you mentioned, given what is on brand for this gentleman, I have to imagine that there are maybe some things that are out there that he may not want to disclose. But I have, in one case, one of my victims was sued after a trial. that a colleague of lost after I left the state attorney's office for defamation. And it went nowhere fast. Of course, that's in the U.S., that just because a jury finds somebody not guilty of a sexual battery,

Starting point is 00:11:47 doesn't mean that reporting it is a defamation case. And I don't know enough about what he's pleading in the civil case to be able to talk intelligently about it. Right. But I can tell you that the one that I know of went nowhere fast. But speaking, generally speaking, if someone is found now not guilty of the crimes, I understand the example you provided, but if someone is found not guilty by a jury of their peers of the crimes, and then that defendant turns around and sues the accuser, can that not guilty verdict

Starting point is 00:12:16 be used in the civil trial and say, listen, a jury saw that there was no abuse or there was no whatever the claim is, can that be used in a civil trial? I actually did a significant amount of research on it because it bothered me very much at the time that it happened. And the research that I did yielded, you know, there's some public policy issues here that the victim's not the only one bringing charges. There's a prosecutor, there's the police officers, a judge signs off on a probable cause affidavit. So unless somebody has completely fabricated everything, which of course is what he's alleged. But I, it's, it's pretty difficult to meet the standard in which you would be able to not so much bring, but at least sustain a case.

Starting point is 00:13:08 And in my case, I had a confession on tape. Right. So that's, that's very different. He just claimed it was consensual and it was like on a table at a doctor's office. So he was, he was upset about losing his license too. And just generally speaking about this case. Andrew Tate, when he was leaving court, he said the truth will be known very soon. He's been adamant that he's innocent of these charges, has claimed, and maybe people on his behalf who were posting on social media while he was locked up in jail, were saying that this was political in nature, that this was going after a high-profile man like him and his brother.

Starting point is 00:13:46 It was so that there could be prosecutors could be elected, and that's the way that I understood it. It's a very political prosecution. I don't know that much about the Romanian criminal justice system. I can't make an opinion about it. But generally speaking from what you've read about this case, how strong do you think it is against the Tate brothers and how you think it might progress in terms of now it's a question of where he's going to be tained and what the trial is ultimately going to look like?

Starting point is 00:14:13 So there is a presumption for the least restrictive means necessary to protect the community and have the defendant return to trial. And if they decided that was house arrest, that was house arrest. It may not have anything to do with the strength of the case. But what interests me the most, and obviously we haven't seen anything about it on news networks, but what interests me is I wonder what kind of digital footprint we have here, because you would be surprised in these videos. And it's been coming up more and more in criminal cases covered on this network,

Starting point is 00:14:50 where you have metadata embedded in videos and in text messages and in photos. And so you could prove the date, the time, the place, the things happen. And I would also wonder if there's like outtakes that maybe got edited or deleted and if those are recoverable. So I can't talk about how strong the case is, but I can say that there's, you know, with sufficient technical prowess, I'm sure they can come up with quite a bit. Well, the Daily Mail, who's been on this a lot, they posted an article about some of the text messages that were allegedly sent by Andrew Tate

Starting point is 00:15:29 to the women that he allegedly held captive. They were revealed in Romanian prosecutor's transcripts. I'll give you one of them. Don't go out alone without telling me, it's the last warning. That seems on point for what they're accusing him of. And to think that you could get a date, a time, and maybe even latitude and longitude data from where that text message was sent and to whom

Starting point is 00:15:53 and where that person was at the time it was sent. That's, I'm not going to say it's a slam dunk, but I'm going to say it's not helpful. Yeah, context matters too. But look, you know, we're trying to do our best to report what's happening. And I think it's a high profile story. We think it's an interesting story and an important one to say the least because these allegations are incredibly serious, particularly for someone who has such a hype, a big following as himself. So we will continue to follow it. Kathleen Bogan shoots, thanks for taking the time and being

Starting point is 00:16:26 our, you know, expert on Romanian law for the last 20 minutes. We're still trying to piece it together ourselves, but appreciate taking the time. Thanks for having me. And that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this long crime series. Add free right now on Wondery Plus.

Starting point is 00:17:04 Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

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Law&Crime Sidebar - Andrew Tate Pushes for Freedom from House Arrest as Trafficking Case Progresses

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