Law&Crime Sidebar - BONUS EPISODE: Amber Heard Faces $15M Court Battle Over Legal Bill in Depp Defamation Trial

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

Amber Heard is facing a legal battle with two insurance companies over her estimated $15 million in legal expenses from her defamation trial with Johnny Depp. One insurance company sued the other to split the bill, now, both companies are attempting to claim they're not liable for the astronomical legal bill. The Law&Crime Network's Jesse Weber and civil trial attorney Richard Schoenstein break down the legal storm Heard faces.GUEST:Richard Schoenstein: https://twitter.com/LawfulRichesLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Michael Deininger & Logan HarrisGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSummaryNo EntrySee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. And he bawled up his fists, leaned back, and headbutted me square in the nose. Just right as I stood in front of him. Amber Hurd has some new legal trouble this time about who's going to pay her legal bills. Civil trial attorney Richard Schoenstein will explain. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

I thought if I got up out of that room, I believe the best thing ever happened to me. And I wish I could sit here and say I stood up and I walked out of that house and I drew a line and I stood up for myself. The legal troubles surrounding Amber Hurd are continuing. As you recall, Hurd was involved in a widely publicized and debated televised defamation trial with her ex-husband Johnny Depp, something that we covered here on sidebar and the law and crime network. The jury ended up ruling against her saying that she defamed Depp in a Washington Post op-ed piece, basically calling him a domestic abuser.

And they awarded Depp $10.35 million in damages, but that was offset by the $2 million awarded to Herd because the jury. also found that the pirate star had defamed his ex-wife as well. So as that gets all sorted out, there's another problem. And that problem is, who is going to pay for Amber Hurd's legal expenses, which reportedly are now in the multi-millions? Apparently, it was already past $8 million before the trial and now maybe near $15 million in legal expenses. And you see, Amber Hurd had a homeowner's policy with Travelers Commercial Insurance Company, a general liability, policy with New York Marine, and these both cover defamation claims, but travelers sued New York

Marine to pay half the cost. Then both insurance companies are trying to get out of paying. Amber Heard has had to retain a new lawyer to sort this out. So we figured, why don't we try to sort this out? And to help sort it out, I'm joined by civil litigator and trial attorney Richard Schoenstein, who's been my partner in crime on the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial and the aftermath of such. So, Rich, good to see you. Good to see you, Jesse. Is it typical to have insurance companies pay legal expenses like this? I wouldn't say necessarily typical, but it happens all the time. And if you ever get sued for anything, you ought to check whatever insurance policies you

have in place because you do find coverage sometimes. I mean, Amber Hurd apparently found it in a homeowner's policy and a general liability policy. That's not uncommon that what you would regard as an ordinary insurance policy, mostly about protecting your home would actually cover, in some instances, litigation expenses. But how is that related? How does that work? Well, it's just a general liability coverage. Insurance policies are contracts. They are as narrow or as broad as they are written. So every policy is different. Every insurer is different. You can't really give any general rules other than read the policy very carefully. But a policy may offer coverage for, you know, a homeowner's policy will

insure you for accidents that happen to third parties while on your premises. So if somebody at your house trips and falls and sues you, the homeowner's policy might cover your expense in that litigation and might cover the damage to the person who fell at your home. But I guess the problem for Amber Heard is that these insurance companies are trying to get out of it because the jury found her liable for defamation. This was an intentional wrongdoing. And they're saying, right, we don't have to pay out for that. We don't have to pay your legal expense. That's exactly right. And again, this is another, this is another assumption without seeing the policy. But insurance policies don't usually cover somebody for intentional misconduct or intentional torts. So they might cover you for negligence if someone trips and falls at your home, as we said. But they don't necessarily cover you for intentionally hurting somebody, you know, punching them in the face on purpose or here defaming them. Does that mean, in your experience, you don't think that these insurance companies are going to have to pay the legal cost, that it's now going to fall on the shoulders of Amber Hurd?

That would be my guess as to how this is going. And let's take it in two steps. First of all, they certainly won't have to pay the verdict. The insurance policies aren't going to cover a verdict of something brought by a third party where it's an intentional tort. Typically speaking, when insurance companies pay out legal fees, they do it under a reservation of rights. Because they're paying for your defense, even though it might be a result of that case that somebody founds that you acted purposefully wrongfully. And often the insurance company will require you to sign an undertaking that says you have to pay back the legal fees if the court ultimately rules that you committed fraud or some other purposeful misconduct. This arises all the time, by the way,

with directors and officers or D&O insurance, as we talk about. And directors and officers are sued under company policies. So I don't know if Amber Hurd had to sign an undertaking, but I, I do understand these insurance companies now saying we don't have to pay these legal fees. So, in other words, there's a possibility she took the risk. She said, okay, maybe I won't have to pay it myself. But if I lose, I might be on the hook for it. What happens if she can't pay for it? Can't pay for the legal fees?

Well, that's, I mean, that is a terrible quagmire for everybody involved, right? I mean, these law firms put a lot of time and effort into these cases and have these bills. And by the way, the size of these bills don't surprise me, given the scope of these litigations, the number of witnesses, the amount of pretrial. activities, the amount of trial activities. 15 million? It really doesn't. I mean, I know it seems high, but these were extensive. And there is a problem here. I understand, you know, Amber Hurd went through several different law firms. And it's never cheaper to involve a series of lawyers. You have starts and stops and people have to get up to speed and it can make it very expensive. So I understand

it seems a little bit high, but I'm not totally shocked about that. Yeah, let's talk real quick about the lawyers. So my understanding is Travelers Insurance, which by the way, had a representative in court. And when I was in court, I saw her all the time. She was sitting right behind the defense. But Travelers, which my understanding is they maybe paid for most of the legal defense, they wanted to bring in, they wanted to bring in their own lawyers. And then the other insurance company wanted to bring in their lawyers and these lawyers were frozen out. How does that work because my understanding, again, is Amber Heard kind of went through a series of lawyers before she ultimately settled on Elaine Brettahawk. In these insurance cases, a problem that often arises

is who gets to pick the lawyers. And a lot of insurance policies will say that the insurance company gets to pick the lawyers. But in many states, if the insurance company issues a reservation of rights, meaning it says, we're not sure if we're going to cover this, we're going to wait and see how it plays out. When there's a reservation of rights in place, the insurance company can lose its ability to pick the lawyer. And then the defendant, the insured party is allowed to pick the lawyer. Some policies allow that right from the beginning. So I gather there was a dispute in this case over who got the pick the lawyer. And that is part of what they're fighting about now. Rich, I'll give you a final quick word on this. How much trouble is Amber Hurd

with respect to this? Well, Amber Hurd could be in trouble because she is ultimately on the hook for these damages awards and for the legal fees. I don't know if she's going to declare personal bankruptcy. I don't know if that helps because bankruptcy doesn't typically discharge intentional misconduct. You know, a verdict like this for intentional misconduct. It might discharge part of the legal fees. So everybody's in some financial trouble here. Amber Hurd, the insurance company, the second insurance company, and Johnny Depp, who's looking presumably to collect these amounts. It might behoove everybody to get together in a room and work it out. As I've been saying for a long time, maybe they'll listen to you. Richard Schoenstein, thanks so much. And thanks everybody for joining

us here on Sidebar. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jesse Weber. We'll speak to you next time. this long crime series, ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.