Law&Crime Sidebar - BONUS EPISODE : Barnaby Joyce, Australian Member of Parliament, On Amber Heard Perjury Probe

Episode Date: July 16, 2022

Barnaby Joyce was the Minister for Agriculture in 2015, when Amber Heard brought her two teacup yorkies, Pistol and Boo, into Australia without declaring them. He demanded the dogs be removed from the country or euthanized because of Australia's strict biosecurity laws. As Australian authorities work with the FBI and DOJ on an investigation into whether Amber Heard perjured herself in court in 2016 when pleading guilty to falsifying travel documents, Joyce talks with Law&Crime's Angenette Levy about the defamation trial: Depp v. Heard, the perjury probe and why he says the United States government is the reason the case is stalled.GUEST:Barnaby Joyce, Member of the Australian House of RepresentativesLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. When you disrespect Australian law, they will tell you firmly. I'm truly sorry that Pistol and Boo were not declared. There's an ongoing criminal investigation of actress Amber Heard in Australia on allegations she perjured herself in 2016 during court proceedings over smuggling two dogs into the country. Now the FBI is involved and assisting. And will Amber Heard be charged? That's the big question. I'm Anjanette Levy and welcome to Law and Crime Sidebar Podcast where we are taking a closer look at this case and the investigation.

Now, back when this happened in 2015 and Pistol and Boo were smuggled into the country and not declared when they arrived, it caused an international stir. This would make news around the globe. And one of the people who was not happy about it was the Minister for Agriculture at the time. He is Barnaby Joyce. We start letting movie stars, even though they've been the sexiest man alive twice to come into our nation, then why don't we just break the laws for everybody? So it's time that pistol and boo bugged off back to the United States.

And we all know by now that Johnny Depp and Amber Hurd issued an apology and she pleaded guilty blaming her assistant at the time or her former assistant Kate James and who is a native Australian. She said that in court that she thought Kate James had taken care of the paperwork. And she also blamed sleep deprivation and jet lag. Joining us now is Barnaby Joyce. He is a member of Parliament from New England. He's been a senator. He was Deputy Prime Minister twice. And as I mentioned, he was also the Minister for Agriculture at the time that this happened. So Barnaby, welcome to the show. We appreciate you coming on.

And Jeanette's an absolute pleasure to be on your show and I'd like to give a big warm welcome to all the people in the United States and around the world listening to your podcast. Let's start if you could. Just tell me if you would. What is the very late? on this investigation? Well, it's become the very latest is the absolute train wreck, which was the defamation trial. I suppose everybody was watching that, like they'll watch some soap opera only.

It was more graphic. The latest has become apparent that in her evidence that she gave to the court, it would be alleged that she was not telling the truth. Now, that's a pretty fundamental part of, the delivery of evidence at court. You're sworn, you're sworn, and there's an expectation that what you say will be the truth. Now, you mentioned, first of all, let's go back. You watched the trial, is that right? How could you not watch it? It was two crazy people half cut each night throwing crap at each other. It was bizarre. But anyway, I think I got their character right

in my first assessment. So tell us if you would. First of all, I think a lot of people, who maybe haven't been to Australia or New Zealand, I know they have some strict biosecurity laws as well, tell us why this was such a big deal, because a lot of people look at it on its face and say, oh, so what? They brought a couple of dogs in and they didn't declare them. Other people, meanwhile, say it's very serious. Explain to the listeners and the viewers why Australia takes something like bringing in dogs without the proper paperwork and the quarantining, why they take that so seriously? There's two things. This is a cultural reason. Australia is an island, an island continent. And we take as part of our sort of national identity, biosecurity, incredibly seriously.

Other countries might take religious laws incredibly seriously. They might take espionage laws incredibly seriously. We take biosecurity laws incredibly seriously. The reason being it would decimate our economy. You have a range of things. Rabies. We don't have rabies in Australia. So a lot of people go bushwalking. I've got wild dogs around here, as you can see, I'm a farmer. And, you know, it would change a whole complexion of how our nation would run. Going for a bushwalk would be a completely different experience because we do have lots of feral animals around here, pigs, goats, deer, wild dogs.

And so we're very aware of what happens if there is an incursion of rabies or scrimies or screw fly, or the big one we're watching out for now is foot and mouth. And so we come down like a ton of bricks on people who would decimate our regional economies, change our standard of our way we live here in our nation, and also in many instances force up the cost of living because if agricultural products go off the shelf, well, you pay for it when you push your trolley around and cost of living is a huge issue. You've got to look after people so that they can feed themselves. that one of the senators who has been watching this closely asked some questions last October.

We've aired some of that on our podcast. And he was really upset and wanting to know why this investigation hasn't moved forward. There was discussion about, you know, working with international partners. We know that the FBI is assisting with this, helping conduct interviews of people here in the United States. So have you been frustrated by the slow pace of this investigation? because it's been underway since late 2020 from my understanding. Well, I suppose, and I can be, you know, straight with you, I suppose we got a sense of because they were movie stars, they were somehow above the law.

And that, you know, everybody's equal before the law. You break the law in a country. And it wasn't like it was an accident. You know, there were documents that they signed, and they were just a lie. They knew what they were doing. And if you break the law, whether you're a movie star or a garbage man, The law is equivalent. Now, we have an expectation that just because you're a movie star

doesn't mean you have to not tell the truth, not be up front. And if I went into the United States of America, and all my cousins live in, my cousins live in Tennessee and Texas, first cousins, and if I went there and just flouted the laws, I reckon I'd have my backside hall before a court in Nashville. And they would say, we don't care you, you're Australian, we don't care you, your deputy prime minister, you've broken our laws. And now you have to expect what comes your way. Now, we expect that there's no sort of leverage given, you know, because we also believe in habeas corpus, because habeas corpus, delivery of evidence that all is equivalent before the law, same as you, same as the United States. And we want to make sure that if these people

have decided or one person has decided that, you know, it's a little bit of a joke, well, that's kind of serious. And I use an example, and it's really important here. You've got a big issue at the moment with Julian Assange, okay? Julian Assange was not in the United States when the issues in regards at that time, Bradley Manning, now Chelsea Manning, committed a crime. He was not a citizen of the United States, but you want him extra-dited back to the United States. It's just like, suppose, me being extradited to Saudi Arabia. I insulted the Quran. Now, that's been taken very seriously.

Yet here we have people who committed a crime in Australia against Australian laws, which are aware of, yet somehow that's special treatment. That's how we see it. So the way to show it's not special treatment is expedite it, get it to a conclusion, and if the person has found that they've purged themselves, well, show your fair income by doing the same thing that have happened as a, as if it happened in the United States? So you bring up an interesting thing.

You keep referring to people. When I've asked about the status of this investigation, the Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment, has always said Amber Heard in allegations of perjury. Are other people, as Johnny Depp being looked at, as having perjured himself, it was my understanding that Amber Heard was the one who actually signed the documents

when they arrived in the country talking about the dogs, or not declaring the dogs, I should say. Well, the question I'd be asking the Anginet is, did Amber and Johnny have a little yarn about it? Did they have a yarn on the plane on their corporate jet? Oh, look at this. Bit of a joke. Look what I'm going to do here, Johnny.

I'm going to sign it. Because that'd make you complicit, wouldn't it? That'd be making you complicit to a crime and serious one. And I suppose there's questions. it's got to be asked or did you keep it an absolute secret? Never told anybody. Stuck down the back of the plane, got the forms, filled them out, never mentioned a word of it and then delivered them. I don't know. What do you think likely happened? Everything I've seen has involved the witness statements from the UK trial. We've talked about those involved Kevin Murphy,

the estate manager telling Amber Hurd specifically, and there were emails produced in which he told her the dogs wouldn't be ready in time, but she wanted to take them anyway. That's the documentation I've seen. So that's what I know of. I don't know that Johnny Depp knew anything about this. I know they arrived in the country on the plane together. So we've tried to get some answers to those questions. Do you think she will be charged? Have you received any updates? Have you inquired about that? Yeah, I have. But that's up to you guys. It's up to the United States. and it's a question for how you see, you know, the process of law. And, you know, I won't draw conclusions about how investigations and how a court case goes.

I'll leave that up to the court and the wise people who administer that. But I would hope that if it was the occasion that someone had perjured themselves, that firstly a fulsome investigation of whether anybody knew about it was complicit. it, gave advice on it. I think that should be investigated. And then it's up to the United States of America. You have to work out for yourselves, like, okay, how do we see the process of law? Now, I'm being a little bit facetious there because I know exactly how you do it. Obviously, we've got great respect for the United States, an incredible country, and the world's blessed by its gift to the world. But, you know, this is something that's important and very important

to us. You know, it's, if people come to Australia, you don't have screw fly, and we didn't have varroa mite to the other day, we don't have rabies, we don't have tuberculosis, we don't have brucellosis. My father was a vet, and we spent a lot of time and a lot of money and a lot of pain trying to get these diseases out of our nation, and we don't want them back, and we don't want new ones in. And in my area, if we got foot and mouth or rabies, it would really, there'd be people go broke.

There'd be people who would lose their houses, you know? That's how serious it is. If you lost your house, if you lost your income, what would you expect from the court? How would you see justice if you realize it was just someone who frequently broke the law because they thought they were a little bit special? Barnaby, why do you keep saying it's up to the United States? Isn't it up to the Australian government in prosecutors there if they see and believe that a crime And they're committed to file the charge?

No, well, the problem is, Angenet, that Amber Hurds a citizen in the United States, and so is Mr. Depp, and they're in the United States. And, you know, we can't go out there and grab them. I mean, you know, that's, that's in your bellywhip. So, you know, it does, it's in, we respect your sovereignty, but we, we observe your laws and your process of administration and how you fulfill those requirements. And, you know, it's, as I say, it's, you know, there are a lot of issues, political issues

that are running around between the United States and Australia at the moment. You know, what I've brought up in our nation is, you know, I find a little bit peculiar that a person such, I don't respect you on Assange, I think he's a total rap bag, absolute rap bag, but I'm a great observer of the process of law and I, being a, being a politician or a person who brings in legislation over a long period of time, I would be, wouldn't I? But, you know, he'd say, well, hang on, this fellow didn't commit a crime. That was Bradley Manning, Chelsea Manning. He wasn't in the United States.

This is Assange. He's in the United Kingdom. He's going to be extraded back to the United States to a country that he's not a citizen of and he didn't commit a crime in. And apparently that's AOK. Yeah, we have a person who committed a crime in Australia. who broke our laws, who's in the United States now, but we haven't heard boo that they're going to be extradited back to Australia.

So what's the process then that you're aware of? Does somebody, does the United States have to initiate, you know, extradition proceeding? Because as far as we know, no charge has been filed by the Australians. Well, they have to, you know, go through, I mean, this is the process of the FBI. And I suppose there's a discussion I have with my own Department of Agriculture. I got a sense at the time that, you know, this was those diplomatic cables. going backwards and forth and this was all a bit messy and they wanted it quietly swept on the carpet and that aggravated me because you know we don't quietly put things under the carpet for any

person uh you find out if they broke the law they broke the law and and uh and it wasn't you know i'd have some sympathy it was an accident like if this person was completely unaware and um you know it was a mistake but this was no mistake you know and and and and As I said, people say, well, it's just a couple of dogs. No, that is actually the most, that's a very usual mechanism of the transmission of rapies. As a vector, what they call cup dogs, tiny dogs, is because everyone thinks of little small dogs don't get diseases. Well, they do. And the thing is, even if we said don't bring a pair in, and we may just sign form, say please don't have pairs.

please don't have pairs it's a big crime if you bring in a pair and you thought well who cares about that i'm just going to bring him a pairs you say well it goes beyond just the issue it's the fact that you knowingly and wantingly decided that you'll break the laws from another country and then later on when you're discussing it it's alleged and there's a possibility you just lied you know And which says you think it's all a joke. And if everybody thought law was a joke, she'd be a pretty wild, old world, wouldn't it? So you're saying any holdup in her being charged is due to the United States not doing what they are supposed to do and extraditing her? Well, I just think it's up to you guys.

I mean, as I say, I'm not going to start, it's up to the FBI. I'm sure they're competent. Yeah, you know, I'm sure that the FBI is up to the job. it's a matter of how quickly you want to do the job, I suppose. But, you know, that ball's in your court. I have no knowledge. I can't go into the process of the FBI. That would be interesting.

So that's in your court. I have no line of sight to how that process is going. I have a strong line of sight to what outcomes are, though, and I'm waiting for an outcome. Well, Barnaby Joyce, thank you so much for coming on to talk with us about this. We really appreciate your time. I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity. apologize for my garb. I've just finished some work and I'm going straight back to it. So all the best. Well, we appreciate it. Thank you. I did a little bit of research. And in order for a person to

be charged in a foreign country, officials with that foreign country have to contact the U.S. Department of Justice if this involves a U.S. citizen. The DOJ will then help locate that person. The charge can be filed in the foreign country and DOJ will work with the foreign country to have that person extradited to face the charge. So I reached out to the DOJ, of course, to see what they would say about this. And a spokesperson for the DOJ's international law enforcement division told me, as a matter of policy, the Justice Department does not publicly comment on communications with foreign governments on investigative matters, including confirming or denying the very existence of such communications. So there you have it. They won't say a word about it, but we've

told you, and we know this for certain that the DOJ and the FBI are involved, the question is whether or not a charge will actually be filed and we'll work to continue to find out whether or not that will happen. So thanks for joining us for this edition of Law and Crime Sidebar Podcast. Michael Dininger and Sam Goldberg are our producers. Bobby Zoki oversees our YouTube. Kira Bronson is our social media person and Alyssa Fisher is our booking producer. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy, and I'll see you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.