Law&Crime Sidebar - BONUS EPISODE: What Pike County Trial Delay Means for the Case

Episode Date: September 10, 2022

The trial of Pike County massacre suspect George Wagner IV has been delayed one week in Ohio. Opening statements are set for Monday, Sept. 12. The Law&Crime Network's Angenette Levy and Mark Weaver, Former Asst. Attorney General for the State of Ohio, explain what the delay means for the case.GUESTS:Mark Weaver, Former Asst. Attorney General for the State of OhioLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Logan HarrisGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Not one of them turned back from these crimes. They all knew what was going to happen that night. They all had their own roles. That was special prosecutor Angie Kineppa at a hearing in May, talking about George Wagner the 4th and his family and the murder of eight members of the Rodin and Gilly families in April 2016. The trial for George Wagner the 4th in Pike County, Ohio, was supposed to start this week, but someone critical to the case became ill, so opening statements have been delayed until next Monday, September

12th. So joining me to talk about how this could impact this high-profile case is Mark Weaver. he is a former deputy attorney general with the state of Ohio. Mark, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to sidebar. Always great to be on sidebar. This is more fun as a sidebar than when the judge calls you up for a sidebar. So I'd rather do this sidebar with you than most judge's sidebar. And I appreciate that. And I've never been in a judge's sidebar. I always want to know what's going on, but I think ours are probably a lot more fun. First of all, we're not going to go into who is ill. I know who it is, but we're not going to talk about that. What does this mean? I mean, they spent a month picking this jury. I mean, when you think about it. August 8th is when jury selection started before that, July 5th, is when

these jurors actually filled out their questionnaires. So to have somebody critical to the case become ill, somebody involved with the trial, this is less than ideal. It is. There's always a fear that we'll start to lose jurors when things like this change. Now, the judge has set aside a pretty big alternate panel, which helps if we lose jurors. But with a link of the trial like this, you're likely going to lose jurors just on random things that happen in their life. So my first concern would be, are we going to lose any jurors? And Judge Deering in paneled six alternates, five women and one man, the jury panel, the 12 in the box. It's nine women and three men. I am not sure how, what that means for George Wagner in the fourth, if anything. It just seems to me you have a case.

where it's alleged that one family killed another over custody of a child, a mother, a couple of mothers, three mothers actually in this case, were murdered. So what is your take on the makeup of this jury panel? I know this region well. The county next door is where I do most of my prosecutions and I've done a special prosecution on a child rape case in that very courtroom. So I know the region well. I know the jury well. Female heavy jury is not going to help the defendant in this case. He has a lot to worry about. He has a lot to worry about on these facts, and with that panel, he has a lot to worry about. One of the things we've learned, actually, we've learned a lot of things through motions hearings in this case, is the fact that the special prosecutor, the prosecution team for that matter,

you have Angie Kineppa, who's been on it since day one, Rob Junk, the Pike County prosecutor, and then Andy Wilson from the governor's office, Governor DeWine's office, is assisting in the case, helping as a special prosecutor as well. And they've all said that the Wagner's operated as one family unit. They sat around the kitchen table and took votes about participating in these homicides, according to what the prosecution has said. They took votes on everything. They discussed apparently which women were going to remain in the family.

Jake Wagner married a woman named Elizabeth in Alaska, and they moved back to Ohio. And according to Angie Kineppa, there's talk on wiretaps about how George Wagner and Angela Wagner wanted Elizabeth out of the picture because they felt like, she was a danger to the family. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff. And they're saying this goes to this whole conspiracy, this criminal enterprise. Your thoughts on all of that, a family allegedly operating as one unit, taking votes on everything, sitting around the kitchen table, including committing mass murder. And this is all according to the prosecution. Yeah, let's start with the special prosecutors. I know all of them in some level. Kind of is very good. She's a very

detail-oriented prosecutor. It should be noted that Andy Wilson is coming from the governor's office because our governor at Ohio used to be the attorney general, and that's where Andy Wilson worked. He's a career prosecutor. Rob Junk is the local elected prosecutor. He's going to be less of a force in this trial than the other two lawyers are. But when you understand the facts of this case, and opening statements will be fascinating. Obviously, all your viewers should tune in for all of the coverage, but you learn so much in opening statements. For those of us who remember the old show The Sopranos. This is going to sound a little bit like the Appalachian version of the Sopranos with this crime family, with this matriarch who's tough, hard-bittened and has strong opinions.

And then you have the son who's sort of the leader of the enterprise. There's some crazy facts in here. There are so many witnesses. This is going to be such a witness-intensive trial that I think it's going to be one of the most fascinating cases that law and crime covers this year. It is really interesting you say that because Angie Kinepa actually likened them to the mafia in a May 2022 hearing, a motions hearing. So a criminal enterprise, you see things like that. The mafia referred to those things. So she was talking about other crimes being committed. The family was committing crimes in order to help themselves survive and things of that nature. So it's interesting to me that you know both Angie Keneppa and Andy Wilson. Andy Wilson, before he went to the governor's

office, let's just put that out there, was the Clark County prosecutor. So he was the elected county prosecutor in Clark County, which is north of Dayton, Ohio, up that way. So Springfield area. So what do you think? You said it's going to be interesting set of facts. Are you expecting these two to be real pit bulls, Angie Keneppa and Andy Wilson? I do. This is a very troubling set of facts. Every case I've always prosecuted. I've had some level of concern or anger or worry about the defendants actions, but there is a level of evil and malevolence in these facts that we don't often find. Last summer, I prosecuted the guy, 18-year-old who had sex with the 13-year-old girl in exchange for $10 worth a pot. Now, do I think he's a bad guy and deserves to be in prison?

Yes, and he's in prison as we speak. But the level of evil we're talking about in the Wagner trial is several levels below that. And when the prosecution makes its case and lays out what happen, I think people will be shocked at some of these facts. Do you believe that there's a lot that we don't yet know? We've heard the allegations. They operate as one unit. They, that Jake confessed, that Angela confessed. There's wiretaps. There are shoe impressions. There are all these things that Jake led them to the alleged murder truck and firearms, which were recovered from the pond on Frederica's Flying W. Farm. That's Frederico Wagner. She's Billy Wagner's, Jake and George's grandmother. So do you think there's stuff out there that we just don't know?

Oh, absolutely. When that prosecution puts together a case, you interview the witnesses, they have a set of facts they tell you about. You create sort of an outline for each witness. There's no way we can know all the things the prosecution knows. This is one of the most heavily investigated cases in modern American history. It might be one of the most heavily investigated cases in Ohio history. Our Bureau of Criminal Investigation, which are top-notch investigators, has dozens of agents who may be called to testify on this. And there's all sorts of evidence points. So viewers ought to maybe get out of scorecard or open up a spreadsheet

and they can track along at home all the different facts they're going to come out during the prosecution's case in chief. This case is supposed to last between six and eight weeks, the trial. It's a death penalty case still because in order for the death penalty be taken off the table, should George even be convicted, we haven't even gotten there yet, We haven't gotten to opening statements. It's going to be six to eight weeks. That's a lot. More than 250 potential witnesses. And you mentioned this isn't one of the most heavily investigated cases in the United States, probably, or in the state of Ohio. I mean, they went to Alaska. The Wagner family moved to Alaska. I don't know if a lot of listeners and viewers know this, but the whole gang, the investigators, maybe not the whole gang, but I know a good number of them went to Alaska. They went to Montana to interview the Wagner's when they were crossing back into the United States from Canada. at one point. Just the resources that went into this, Mark. Have you seen anything like it? No. I prosecuted a death penalty case a couple of years ago. We had a lot of information

and resources, but nothing like this. And it's important for viewers to remember when they watch this case, in a normal aggravated murder case, it's a difficult thing to put on. It's the most serious case we can bring. But in a death penalty case, the prosecution not only has to think about how to meet its burden of proof on all the elements, also has to protect the record, Because if this defendant were to be given the death penalty, they will be years, if not decades of appeals where this record is sliced and diced and scrutinized by appellate court judges, and maybe one of them will decide to overturn it. So much more so than other murder cases, you have to protect the record and be very careful about what's allowed into evidence. One thing that I think is interesting about this case is the use of wiretaps. I know that wiretaps are used in federal cases. I don't know. Are they common in state cases? because apparently there are a number of statements made on these wiretaps, and the Wagner's suspected they were being wiretapped and eaves dropped on by the government. So is that common in a state murder case?

It's much less common than we see in federal court. Let's give kudos to now Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, who was then the Attorney General of the state when this happened, by getting the Bureau of Criminal Investigation involved immediately and having them work this case, it upped the level of professionalism. Now, don't get me wrong. The people who work in rural sheriff's offices are good people, but they typically have very little resources. The deputies have much less training than you see from a typical BCI agent, particularly when it comes to sophisticated evidence gathering. The fact that Mike DeWine immediately brought in the BCI to help present this case and prepare this case really will help the prosecution's chance. And the interesting thing is, and we learned this in a motion hearing in May, that they have a wire room. The Attorney General does in the state of Ohio. So they basically have a listening post in Columbus, Ohio. So that's where all the information comes in and they sort through it and things of that nature. Do you anticipate this will actually start next Monday because, you know, we don't know the nature of the illness. Because you've got such good sources. You probably know more about the illness than I do.

Viewers should know that you are right on this. I don't know a reporter who's been on this case with greater detail and proficiency than you. So you probably know more than I do. I suspect this could be COVID-related because that tends to be what pushes things back. All of us in our work lives have had to have things postponed because somebody was exposed, something like that. So I don't know what it is. I do know this, that the judge is going to be worried. about losing jurors because the more you push things back, the later the end date becomes. And that's just talking about the guilt phase. If we get a guilty finding, we're going to move into the aggravating factors in the mitigation phase. And that could be another few weeks.

We're talking well into near the end of the year. So is there a risk of a mistrial here? COVID, I don't think that's it, even though it wouldn't shock me. I got COVID at the depth trial at the end. So, I mean, you're in a courtroom. They were on a bus, taking the drug. all over creation. I was with them for that. Is there a risk of starting all over? George Wagner the fourth getting a do-over before the thing even starts. It feels like this thing has been pushed back and postponed. And a lot of people are waiting, particularly people in this county who early on thought that there was a threat to themselves when the sheriff told them to arm themselves. Now, in rural Ohio, encouraging people to arm themselves is not all that necessary because most

people in real Ohio already armed. But this was a county that was completely worried that there was an outside threat. And then when they found out it was not an outside threat, they wanted to know that there would be accountability for this horrific set of facts. Without respect to whether this defendant is guilty, these facts are terrible. Somebody committed horrific crimes, murdering people in their sleep in many cases. And so the folks down there, they would like to get some accountability and some closure. And so as a prosecutor, I always worry about the potential of the mistrial because starting all over again, resets the clock, pushes back witnesses, witnesses, memories start to fade. Professional witnesses move on to other jobs and you have to bring them back from their other

jobs. So there's a lot of logistical things that come up when you hear about a mistrial potential. Well, we will wait and see. And it is a horrific set of facts. And I do remember when the then sheriff, Charlie Reeder, who's now in prison for public corruption, but he did tell people, people were scared to death out there. And it was shocking as somebody who came from the Cincinnati area covering local news where we're used to things happening in the inner city with gun violence, which is really unfortunate, but it was shocking to hear a sheriff tell the public, arm yourselves, because they didn't know what they were dealing with. And I think people out there are still scared, honestly, from what I've seen. So Mark Weaver, thanks as always, for joining us.

appreciate your time. It's been great talking with you. We hope you come back as the case moves forward. Thanks, Angelette. And that's it for this edition of Law and Crime Sidebar podcast. It is produced by Sam Goldberg and Logan Harris. YouTube manager, Bobby Zoki, is on board with us. Alyssa Fisher is our booking producer and Kiera Bronson handles our social media. You can listen to Sidebar on Apple, Spotify, Google, and wherever else you get your podcast. And as always, you can watch it on Law and Crimes YouTube channel. at Levy, and we'll see you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.