Law&Crime Sidebar - Bryan Kohberger’s Life Under the Radar: Walking in the Footsteps of Idaho Student Murders Suspect

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger flew under the radar for most of his life. Growing up in the rural Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania and attending college in the Lehigh Valley region, the 28-year-old DeSales University grad is often described as an awkward, “regular Joe” with a dead stare. That life of flying under the radar ended for Kohberger in December, when he was arrested for allegedly brutally stabbing four University of Idaho students, Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, to death. The Law&Crime Network’s Sierra Gillespie takes you through Kohberger’s life leading up to the arrest.LAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:Host: Sierra Gillespie Editing: Michael DeiningerSocial Media Management - Eileen Holliday, Vanessa Bein, & Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that will

keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. It's a story that's gripped the nation. Four college students brutally stabbed to death in their off-campus Idaho home. For weeks, no suspects, no arrests, and no murder weapon. Hill. Detectives arrested 28-year-old Brian Christopher Colberger in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania on a warrant for murder of Ethan, Zena, Madison, and Kaylee. On December 30th, 2022, officials announced the arrest of suspect Brian Coburger. The man they say is responsible for the murders of University of Idaho students Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalez, Ethan. in Chapin and Xanacernodal. Weeks before, on November 13th,

their bodies were found stabbed to death on the upper two floors of their off-campus home. I'm sure there's statistics out there of, you know, many people pass by a murderer, many people know a murderer. Well, I don't. It's very concerning, and it's just very eerie and creepy as well.

It's crazy. Because, like, literally, like, days after these murders happened, he brought it up when I saw him in the hallway. To get inside the mind of accused killer Brian Coburger, Law and Crime Network began a weeks-long investigation into his past, teaming up with local Pennsylvania news outlet Lehigh Valley Live.com to walk in the footsteps of the highly educated murder suspect before he moved across the country to Washington. It's almost too good to be true. Unless this guy was miraculously set up, which is like a one in a billion chance, you know, no one cares enough about Brian Coburger to set him up. Our investigation began thousands of miles from the Moscow-Idaoh crime scene in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania, where Koberger grew up. That's not something that you really expect for a national story to come back to our area.

The Koberger family home in Albrightville, safely guarded behind the gates of the Indian Mountain Lake development, sits only about 10 minutes away from Pleasant Valley High School, where Koberger graduated in 2013. But it was about an hour south in Pennsylvania's Lehigh Valley, where he spent the bulk of his 20s. DeSales is kind of its own sort of campus outside of Bethlehem in a more rural area, surrounded by a lot of cornfields and small neighborhoods. Down a winding, tree-lined road on the outskirts of the valley is DeSales University, a private Catholic school with less than 5,000 total students. It's a small school. It's not like it's a Penn State or a pit or a temple. It's a very small

school in a cornfield. So if you go there, you know most of the people within your study and pretty much everyone that goes to the school. And he was not known. It's here at DeSales University where Coburger really got his feet wet in the study of criminology. He received both his undergraduate and graduate degrees here. And DeSales officials tell me he studied in this very building. Inside the walls of Dueling Hall, then undergraduate Josh Ferraro, met psychology major Brian Koberger. At that time, I would have never said,

oh, yeah, that guy would do something like this. He may have been a little odd or a little off. But, like, other than that, you'd never expect someone to be allegedly part of a quadruple homicide ever. Ferraro, who graduated from DeSales with a bachelor's degree in criminal justice, is a self-proclaimed true crime. junkie. I was following it day one because who hears about four college students that are unfortunately

murdered and how is that, how do you not want to keep up with that? So I got on TikTok, YouTube, Google, and I just had vigorously kept up with this case. It came as a surprise then when Ferraro's one-time classmate was charged in the murders. And that's why it's like shocking to me because this guy was such a normal dude, average Joe type person, you would never, like, you don't know what's under people's skin. God forbid if he didn't do it, great. But all the signs point to that he did. After news broke of Coburger's arrest, Ferraro recorded his reaction and posted it on social media. I went to college with Brian Coburger. I've been looking at his picture all day. I've been

saying the name all day in my head. And I was like, I know this guy. I know this guy. And then he went to DeSales University, I'm like, I know I had a class with him. I know it. I know it. The name sounds so familiar. Back in 2018, Ferraro teamed up with Coburger for a project on Daphnea, or water fleas. He says they worked together for an entire semester. He was new and I said, hey buddy, do you want to be my lab partner? And that's pretty much what was left, so I took him. And it ended up working out very well. As a commuter student, Coburger came and went from campus during his undergraduate psychology studies. Ferraro says he kept to himself and didn't show any outward signs of something more menacing.

It's not always the creepy guy with glasses and oily hair and creeping around the corner. It's sometimes just that average Joe that on the inside you have no idea what he looks like. But on the outside, he may just seem like a normal person, much like Brian Coburger did. Ferraro instead theorizes Coburgers' alleged drive to kill stems from something on the inside. I really don't think that there's too many outward telltale signs of someone committing a crime. I feel like it's all mostly internal, which goes back to the blank slate theory and basically how you're raised, what you're exposed to as a child, what your genetics are, that would be predispositioned. So like some things you're predisposed to do in life, that's just unfortunate your genetics dictate you will be one way.

However, the blank slate theory says that dependent on your situation and who you grow up with, what kind of friends you have, how many friends you have, do you have a lover, all these things in combination kind of make you who you are. So it's a combination of both, in my opinion. I'm not a professional. You've got to ask Catherine Ramsland. As a graduate student at DeSales, Koberger majored in criminal justice. That means both he and Ferraro studied under legendary forensic psychologist Dr. Catherine Ramsland.

We reached out to Ramsland for this story and were told via email, quote, I'm making no statements about Brian Koberger and will not be interviewed for any stories that feature him. But months before Coburger's arrest, Ramsland appeared on Law and Crime Network's podcast, Coptails and Cocktails. Have I come face to face with psychopaths? Absolutely. The coldness, the lack of remorse, definitely. So some people, yeah, some people call that evil, but we are finding that it might very well. be a brain disorder. In the interview, given just seven months before the University of Idaho murders, Ramsland explained the workings of a psychopath's mind. The brains of what we call primary psychopaths, who seem to be born with this brain disconnect, are definitely different. And it allows them to be

better predators, if that's what they choose to be. Not all psychopaths are criminals, not all psychopaths murders. But if they choose that, it allows them to be very effective at it because they really don't have any remorse over what they're doing. And they really can be very calculated. They tend to be very reward driven. But according to forensic psychologist Dr. John Delatory, we can't yet label Coburger as a psychopath or even a serial killer. Even if he was a serial, even if he does have that, what actually happened was that he was a mass killer, right? That because there was three plus, Sometimes it's 4 plus, depending on what law enforcement agency that you ask,

whoever did this should actually be considered a mass killer. But that doesn't take away from the possibility that they are also a serial. We can't even confirm Ferraro's blank slate theory. The science have suggested that when we were born, we actually do have coding. We do have ways in which we are going to be perceiving the world around us. Now, of course, external influences change who we are and how we're going to respond to those things. but we're not necessarily a blank slate. But according to Ramsland, a motive may be hard to pin down.

They have a variety of motives, but, but their personalities tend to have that rigidity and that inability to go with life's hard knocks and to believe that they're entitled to more and that they need to punish people for them not getting what they think they deserve. Ferraro has his own theory about a motive. see this as this grandiose thing where he was trying to get away with it. I think he had this compulsion, this need, this necessity to do it. And he's probably always wanted to do it and finally said, F it, I'm going to do it. At least part of Ferraro's theory seems to be accurate. Koberger had no run-ins with the law while in the Lehigh Valley. We had no indication he was here

at all. We had no indication he had any interaction with law enforcement at all. After news broke of his arrest, Northampton County District Attorney Terry Howeck says his team reviewed area cold cases for a possible link to Coburger. When you have somebody that might have cereal attached to their name, you just want to make a check to see if there's any connection since he had contact with the county and there was none here in Northampton County. Similar investigations were also conducted in neighboring Lehigh County. We reached out to district attorney Jim Martin who declined an interview. But while sitting down with Houck, we learned news of Coburger's arrest came as a shock for the community. Obviously, it's the reaction that everybody has. It's less, you know, it's like a close to hometown because then you're watching people are posting Facebook pictures of him on campus on some campus close by or something like that.

One such campus is Northampton Community College, where Coburger made the dean's list and later received an associate of arts and psychology degree in 2018 before his time at DeSales. North Hampton County Community College is a beautiful school, and it's a lot of, you know, it's a well-respected academic institution, you know, and yeah, I mean, I would call it a pillar in the community, but there's a lot of kids to go there. Coburger himself commuted about 50 miles from Albrightville to the college's Bethlehem campus while studying for his degree. Law and Crime Network reached out to NCC for this story to learn more about Coburger's time at the school. The senior director of marketing and communications replied in part, quote, This isn't something we'd like to pursue at the moment, and we'll be in touch should anything change. But in an area filled with college-age students, it's possible Coburger flew under the radar altogether. He would have been indistinguishable from any of the other college students, young adults, recent college graduates or graduate students going around the Lehigh Valley.

Even if he had a run-in in a bar, that would not have been anything unusual or even really noteworthy, not until hindsight. According to multiple reports, Koeberger frequented the brewery seven sirens while he attended college in the area. According to the interviews, Koeberger made multiple women uncomfortable, so much so that a record of his interactions was kept, noting that he made staff concerned about his strange behavior. We reached out to the seven sirens owner multiple times and never received a response. But Deletory says labeling Coburger as a killer because of these alleged interactions may be a rush to judgment. They may be engaging in that fundamental attribution error where they're linking all of these things to describe who he is as a person, forgetting that there are many different external influences that it's certainly possible that all of this stuff that he was being

reactionary. And I think that that's also part of if he did do this, that reactionary aspect is kind of maybe what compelled him to engage in this particular act. But could Coburger's connection to criminal justice have played a role in the murders? The course that I took that stands out is psychological sleuthing, where you basically enter the mind of a killer. She would give you sheets, and basically the sheets would denote in detail a crime. However, you wouldn't know who did what per se or where this was, but you'd have to, it was a group thing, so you'd get partnered up or in groups, and you would go through these activities and basically come up with a theory or a thesis and then challenge it to Dr. Ranselin. DeSales boasts a robust criminal

justice program, promoting hands-on training and courses taught by renowned professors. They have an entire house, they call it the crime scene house that is used for simulations. for crime scene investigation or collecting evidence or crime scene photography or responding to other emergencies. But according to court documents, Koberger's criminal justice studies were important enough for detectives to investigate, recovering a criminal psychology book and DeSales University documents from his parents' home when a search warrant was executed. The Master of Arts in Criminal Justice is awarded to Carlina Kemery. Jenna Cook, Brian Coburger. We reached out to Coburger's entire criminal justice graduating class for this story,

but his classmates either didn't reply or denied our request for an interview. One classmate told us via text that DeSales University, quote, sent a general communication that suggested everything go through the university as to be respectful of the ongoing situation. The Associate Vice President of Marketing and Communications told us via phone the school did not discourage students to speak with the media, but that she was available to assist in media requests on a case-by-case basis. The school's statement via email recapped Koberger's majors, the years he completed each program, and confirmed he was always a commuter student. DeSales is just such a close-knit and heartfelt community. Like I said, everybody knows each other.

And the fact that really no one knows about this guy, he went in and out. It's a common theme in Coburger's past, leaving behind little clues about his isolated personality. Multiple people who knew Coburger tell us he was strange, but hardly memorable. He was kind of awkward, but I feel like you can't just write someone off as being crazy just because it's a little awkward, you know. Just months after his graduation from DeSales, Coburger moved across the country to Washington, to begin his Ph.D. studies in criminal justice at Washington State University. That's crazy. Because, like, literally, like, days after these murders happened, he brought it up when I saw him in the hallway.

Just across the hall from Coburgers' Pullman-Washington apartment lives Christian Martinez. He says Coburgers' dad approached him early on. The dad was, like, wanting to introduce me to Brian. And he said something. I don't remember the exact, like, like, word he used to describe him. but it was something that was like, he had the hard time making friends, or he's kind of shy, or something like, like, like, like that. Martinez tells us Coburger kept up with the murders

and even brought them up as a topic of conversation. He was like, oh, did you hear about these murders that happened? And it was like so short after they actually happened, like there was barely any news articles out. So there wasn't much that I could have like read. So I was like, yeah, man, it's crazy. Yeah, of course I've heard about him. He was like, yeah, it seems like they don't have any leads.

And I'm like, yeah, I mean, there's not much about it, you know, there's nothing. I have no details really to say. But yeah, and then he's like, yeah, it seems like they think it was a crime of passion. Those were the two things he said was that they had no leads and they think it was a crime of passion. On top of that, Coburger may have had a fascination with death or killing. One thing that stuck out was, uh, it was kind of like on the subject of what it would take to like take someone's life. Like, it was kind of like he was trying to see my, like my perspective on, I guess, taking someone's life. After the pair were first introduced last summer, Martinez invited Coburger to a pool party, and they saw each other occasionally after that.

At that same party, Zach Cartwright met Coburger for the first time. He did seem pretty kind of just socially awkward and kind of hard to carry a conversation with, if I remember correctly. But besides that, he mainly just stood to the side and was really observant and so much so that based on that one small interaction, he, you know, knew exactly who I was maybe a month or so later when I saw him on that hike. When they crossed paths again, Cartwright says it was strange how quickly Coburger recognized him. It was really weird how he approached me and the people that I was with because he acted kind of like we were best friends or it was like a reunion or something. and he was really excited to see us, and I had no idea really who he was right at that second. Those two small interactions proved important enough for Cartwright to be interviewed by the FBI after Koberger's arrest. I did speak to the FBI at one point. I do believe that they spoke to a lot of people that were at that party.

It may be because that was one of his very first times, if not his, his first time in Moscow. Martinez and his wife were also interviewed by the FBI. He tells us his wife always felt something was off with the now suspected murderer. She didn't have a good feeling about him because every time I would like tell her like, I'm going to invite Brian, you know, because he didn't have any friends. I was trying to bring him out and maybe meet people eating, you know, I relate to. But she was always like, no, please don't. There was just something about him that she, she didn't like.

In recalling their conversations after Coburger's arrest, some key points stick out. I guess looking back, it's kind of funny because she was just, He was talking about how, what was he, he was talking about genealogy, because I was, I was talking about the 23 in me, because my sister had just did all that. And then he brought up something similar in his studies that had to do with, like, being able to catch criminals because of their relatives' DNA, which is, I guess, how he got caught up in his mix. The probable cause affidavit released after Koberger's arrest revealed a knife sheath was left

behind at the crime scene, containing a single source of male DNA. When compared with DNA recovered from the trash at Koberger's parents' home, it proved to be a near perfect match. When the FBI interviewed Martinez, they asked whether he had ever seen Koberger with a similar weapon. They just asked about, like, if he had a knife on him or anything like that, if I ever noticed with a knife, you know, I didn't. He never had anything on him like that.

When Thanksgiving approached less than two weeks after the murders, Moscow police announced their investigation would continue through the holiday. I want to assure you, first off, that the loss of Zana, Kaylee, Madison, and Ethan remains the highest priority for the Moscow Police Department. We will continue putting all of our resources into investigating and solving these murders. Investigators are prepared to work through the Thanksgiving holiday to continue their efforts. As local, state, and federal police continued on in the early stages of the investigation, co-burger texted Martinez on Thanksgiving, reading, quote, happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

It kind of made me feel bad because my wife were talking and, like, how I was, like, one of the people that he made friends with. And then it kind of made me feel bad, you know, like, I don't know. What if it would have made a difference that I had been able to, like, meet up with him the times that I could have? Like, maybe that would have changed anything if it would have. But I don't know. According to court documents, investigators believe the murders happened just 11 days before Coburgers sent Martinez that Thanksgiving text, between 4 and 425 a.m.

A white suspect vehicle was seen near the home at that time and multiple times after. Investigators later determined it was a 2011-2016 Hyundai Allantra. Weeks after the murders, Moscow police put out photos of an Elantra, saying it was a vehicle of interest. The following week, Coburger was behind the wheel of his white Hyundai Allantra when he was pulled over by police. So you're coming from Washington State University? Yeah. And you're going where? Oh.

We're going to be going to Pennsylvania. Oh, okay. Coburger was actually stopped twice in Indiana, about 10 minutes apart, as he drove cross-country with his father from Washington to Pennsylvania for his winter break. Both times, he was stopped for following another vehicle. too closely. When the Pennsylvania search warrant was executed at Koberger's parents' home, investigators recovered multiple items from the vehicle, including hiking boots, a shovel, goggles, and a wrench. Court documents also show one of the surviving roommate saw the suspect the night of the murders, noting he was 5'10 or taller with bushy eyebrows. Martinez agrees he had a

memorable look. Like every time I would like talk to him, my wife describes it as like a dead stare. And like, it kind of is, like, like, you know, you make eye contact with people, but like, you're not, like, constantly, like, just staring at him. That's, he would be, like, constantly, like, staring at him. Like, he's just trying to, like, analyze me. But that was a feeling I would get. After Coburger's arrest in Pennsylvania, he appeared in Monroe County Court on January 3rd. Cameras weren't allowed inside the hearing, but Law and Crime Network was in the courtroom,

where he weighed his right to extradition. He was later flown to Idaho and charged with all. four murders. It alleges that the defendant, Brian C. Coburger, honor about November 13th of 2022 in Laytaw County, state of Idaho, did unlawfully enter a residence located at 1122 King Road, Moscow with the intent to commit the felony crime of murder. Right now, Coburger is being held in Laetaw County Jail in Idaho without bail. As we await his next court appearance in June, questions about his inner psyche remain. Still so much to learn. about who Brian Coburger is, not just as the person alleged to have committed this crime,

but just who he is and how he walked through his life. There's still so much to learn that anybody who says that they know who he was, they actually don't. Because my contention is that I don't think he even knew who he was. Coburger is due back in court in June for a preliminary hearing that's expected to last multiple days. Long Crime Network will be in Idaho for the hearing, where both sides are expected to call witnesses and present evidence. For the latest developments in the University of Idaho murders, make sure to follow Long Crime Network's YouTube page. Reporting for Long Crime Network, I'm Sierra Gillespie.

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