Law&Crime Sidebar - Can Amber Heard Be Charged With Perjury?

Episode Date: June 3, 2022

Jesse Weber breaks down one of the biggest questions in the aftermath of the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial: Can Amber Heard be prosecuted for perjury? Jesse sits down with criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Marie Pereira as they go through different portions of Heard's testimony.  READ FULL TRIAL RECAPS:lawandcrime.comSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Welcome everybody to Sidebar, breaking down the biggest moments in the day's biggest cases. I'm Jesse Weber. And we're continuing our discussion of the Amber Hurd Johnny Depp defamation trial. We're all still reacting to the monumental verdict, a Virginia jury finding Amber Hurd liable for defamation on all of Johnny Depp's claims three statements in the Washington Post op-ed piece that she wrote that implied that Depp was a domestic abuser. Just to give everybody a sense of this, the three statements were

one, this was actually the title, I spoke up against sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath. That has to change. Two, then two years ago, I became a public figure representing domestic abuse. And I felt the full force of our culture's wrath for women who speak out. And three, I had the rare vantage point of seeing in real time how institutions protect men accused of abuse. And the jury found that all three of those statements were defamatory. They not only ruled in favor of Johnny Depp, but they also determined that Amber Heard has to pay up not only $10 million in compensatory damages, but $5 million in punitative damages. And what's interesting about that is that by law that actually has to be reduced to $350,000. So in total, $10,350,000.

Now, they did vote in favor of one of Amber Hurd's three counterclaims. One statement made by Johnny Depp's attorney Adam Waldman. They determined that statement was defamatory and they awarded her two, and they awarded her $2 million. Not a huge win, really, for her. This was just a major loss and a giant win for Johnny Depp. Now, we're doing something a little bit different because we have been doing a live Q&A show on the network, on the Long Crime Network. And the number one question that we keep getting

is if, well, the jury found that Amber Heard lied about Johnny Depp, does that mean could she be brought on charges of perjury for what she testified to on the stand? Well, that is why joining me is a very special guest. We are joined by criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Marie Pereira, who can break down this really important issue with us. Marie, it's great to have you on here. Thank you for having me.

You're such a great guest on the network. How could I not have you here on the Sidebar podcast? So overall, let's just start here. Generally speaking, is it tough to prove perjury? Yes, it is. Why is that? because you have to prove, one, that it was a statement by a declarant made under oath, that that declarant willfully made the false statement under oath,

and the declarant at the time they said the statement believed it was untrue and intentionally uttered the words to deceive, and that the statement related to a material fact in a case. So they have to know that they're lying, they have to be lying, know that they're lying, It has to be something important in the case. Absolutely. Okay, so let's just start off. What we're going to do is we're going to play you some examples of Amber Hurd on the stand

and we'll break it down. But generally speaking, do you think Amber Hood could and would be brought up on perjury charges? Because basically the jury came back and said everything that she told us about being physically, sexually abused by Johnny Depp, we don't believe. Well, yes, she could, but I don't think that the prosecutors would. take time to prosecute her for perjury. And a lot of the things that she said, it would be really hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were absolutely untrue. How? If the jury came back and said that she wasn't telling the truth, I mean, it's either these things happened or they did.

The jury came back and said that she wasn't telling the truth because they didn't believe her statement, and she didn't have facts to back it up, but it doesn't necessarily mean that what she said didn't happen. Now, perjury is a felony, and most states, it varies, but you can spend up to a year in jail for lying on the stand, and they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was lying. So the question, of course, is, and I keep getting this question also, also is what's the point of an oath? What's the point of saying, do you swear to tell the truth before someone testifies in a civil case if they're not going to be brought up on perjury charges? It's a very important thing because an oath is everything in our judicial system. And the

judicial system takes it very seriously when there's a violation of an oath. But again, they have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And I think in this situation, it's a little hairy because it could have happened. I say that it could have happened. Amber just didn't provide the necessary proof or receipts or photographs, forensic evidence to show that it happened. So what you're saying, and we're going to get to this first, you're saying that she could have actually been sexually abused and sexually assaulted, but it's all about what you can prove in a court of law and what is presented in a court of law. So, for example, there could be evidence that was out there that couldn't have been introduced into the trial for various procedural reasons, but actually does show she's telling the truth. So it's all about what was presented in the trial.

Absolutely. All right. So let's play this first clip. So this is one of the really disturbing one. This is an example of sexual abuse. Remember, ties right into the title of the op-ed sexual violence. Let's play it. And let's listen.

All right, what we're about to play, I warn our listeners, is incredible. incredibly graphic. It is incredibly disturbing. Issues of sexual assault are very serious, and I warn our listeners. This may be extremely difficult to listen to, so discretion is advised. He's, like, grabbing my breasts. He's touching my thighs. He rips my underwear off. And then he... proceeds to do a cavity search. He said he was looking for his drugs, his cocaine, his coke. I was wondering how I, somebody who didn't do cocaine and was against it,

that was in and of itself causing problems in our relationship. How could I hide? Why would I hide? His drugs from, like, he was insinuating that I was doing it or something. It made no sense. And he was telling me, we're doing, we're going to, we're going to conduct a cavity search, shall we? Like, just shoved his fingers inside me. I just, just, just stood there staring at the stupid light.

You know what, you know, I didn't know what to do. I just stood it. It just stood there. Well, he did that. He twisted his fingers around. Okay, Marie, so that is one of the worst accounts. I mean, they're all really awful what she levied against Johnny Depp. But the jury rejecting that sexual violence headline,

The jury saying that sexual violence headline, that title is defamatory, they're basically saying what she just said is not true. So that can't be perjury right there. What they're saying and their rejection of her claim is they did not believe it to be true. Not necessarily that it wasn't true, but she failed to prove it to them by clear and convincing evidence that that happened. Okay. So, but again, was there something when you listen to that that makes you think, you know what? I kind of see where the jury came from, why they didn't believe it. You know, for this one in particular, I don't recall any contributing evidence to this, any supporting evidence. This was actually during the event in Hicksville in the trailer park. There was a witness who was called to the stand who owned that trailer, said that Amber Hurd was the one who was emotionally abusive that day, didn't really see the kind of destruction in the trailer that, Amber Heard had kind of described, what was missing from this account for the jury to believe it? What was missing was outside corroborating evidence, not from Amber Heard or from an unbiased witness, to justify that account. What was missing was looking at the totality of the circumstances,

and I remember that incident clearly. She said they got into an argument because he was jealous of another woman who was in their circle coming on to her and he grabbed the woman's arm and said, that's my girl. Stop checking for her, paraphrasing, I will break your effing arm. That woman was never put on the stand. Right. The only person they had was someone who I witnessed the event and never saw it happen. So that's why they didn't believe her because the facts leading up to it were never cooperated, her version of it. And even afterwards, like you said, there was no total destruction of the place. She says he gave her a manual vaginal cavity search looking for drugs. He ripped her gown. And again, her being the person who

memorializes everything pictorially didn't even take a picture of the gown. Let me ask you this real quick, before we go to our next clip. This feels like an instance where people say someone falsely accuses another of sexual assault. Have you ever seen a case where somebody does falsely accuse someone of sexual assault? They go on the stand. They say that person, rate me. It turns out to not be true. And that person is prosecuted for perjury.

Because wouldn't this be the same exact thing? I haven't seen it personally. However, I know that it has happened when the allegations are so false and so damning. And there is so much evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it could have never happened. I believe if it was that type of situation that a person could be prosecuted. Okay, and let's be very clear. I'm not advocating for Amber Heard to be prosecuted for perjury. I'm just addressing what a lot of people are wondering as they're looking at this case.

I mean, this is the number one question. People keep asking us. So we're exploring all the different possibilities here. All right, let's move on. Amber heard alleged that I believe in 2015, Johnny Depp headbutted her. This was one of the profound instances of alleged physical abuse. Let's play it for you. Oh, you really want to go, huh?

Oh, you're so tough. I stood back up again this time he hits me in the face. I stand back up and look him right in the eyes. And it was just a really still moment. I'll never forget it. Really still. I stood up and he said, do you want to go again, tough guy?

And I just looked right at him. Just looked right at his face. And he bawled up his fist, leaned back, and head-butted me square in the nose. Just right as I stood in front of him. I was a foot from him

slam me right in the nose instantly searing pain it's one of the few memories I have in this long relationship that I actually remember the physical pain in that moment

you know it's just searing Marie again the jury rejected that that is a clear example if the jury believed that that would be a clear example of domestic abuse Johnny Depp wouldn't have won his claim. This is an incident that was documented by actual photos of her injuries or perceived injuries on her nose and under her eyes.

And yet, and by the way, there was a Melanie Iglesias who was Amber Hurd's makeup artist testified she had to cover up these bruises. But again, the jury did not believe this. And again, this is an example where you say it wouldn't amount to a perjury charge. And I have to stick to that because it's, like I said, it's tricky. We're talking about beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think that they didn't believe the headbutting occurred, but maybe the jurors just didn't believe that it happened how she said it. I think the jurors believed that a lot of her injuries were results of reactive violence

on the part of Johnny Depp, and I think it was basically forgiven by them. It was never said that it was like an assault case. but this is almost like all the allegations were allegations of assault. And I think Johnny succeeded in convincing the jury that whatever injuries Amber sustained, it was because he was defending himself. They didn't buy the headbutting, but to say that it never occurred that their heads collided in a struggle where he might have been trying to protect himself. they didn't discount that either aside from the perjury case could someone be brought up on an

additional defamation charge for their testimony and for in other words let's say let's say for example okay amber heard testifies to this right and johnny debt suffers so much damage they say you're you're a person who heads butts women you're you're never going to be in another movie can he sue her for defamation for this the story i don't think that he would because it would be a duplication. It would be a waste of his money to hire an attorney to do that. And it would just be overkill because he's proven his point already. He's redeemed his reputation. And I don't think he would go through that. And even with the statements she made after the verdict, which I find to be a duplication of defamation, he's not going to go after her

because he's done. He's won. And it doesn't matter, one, she's saying sexual assault, one, she's saying physical assault. It doesn't change the fact that you still feel the same about perjury? I think... It's not the level of offense. It's not, oh, that's a really bad thing to say on the stand. It doesn't change how you feel about it. I think in this case pertaining to Amber and her allegations, it doesn't really

rise to the level of anyone prosecuting her because he's already redeemed himself. I think that's all I can say on that level. She's not even worthy of going out to prosecute her on that. Well, I'm going to give you one final example that we're going to talk about. This is a big one. This is a big one because it's the infamous May 21st, 2016 event. This is when Amber Hurd alleges that Johnny Depp threw a cell phone at her face. There was a lot of aftermath from this.

The police were called. There was testimony from friends of Amber Hur. This ultimately led to her getting the TRO. Let's play a portion of it. We'll break it down on the other side. With that, Pixar just pulls his arm back with the phone and throws it at my face. Hit me right in my, it felt like my eye. I put my head in my hands and immediately start crying.

I said, you hit me with the phone. Johnny, you hit me. And I'm sitting on the couch. I didn't even have time to react, you know. I didn't even have time to put my hands up. I was still sitting cross-legged in my socks. the couch and i haven't seen him for a month and last you know several times now that i've seen him he's hit me and i didn't even have time to react to this all right again so this is one

where police responded they didn't see any injuries on her face rocky pennington said did testify this is uh amber herd's friend that she did observe these injuries uh there were she was shown photos of amber herd's face with what appeared to be red bruises on her face. This was a very, very controversial event. This is, I have to believe if they interview the jurors, this was going to be a big point of for their discussion. And yet once again, Marie, I'm going to ask you, you're saying no consequences for Amber Hurd to say this on the stand and the jury coming back and saying, we don't believe it. I say no consequences primarily because in order for them to prosecute her for perjury,

the level of the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, and it would be very hard to show beyond a reasonable doubt that it never happened. Now, if we're talking about a situation where, I don't know if you remember years ago, little Kim was involved in witnessing a shooting, and she went to a federal grand jury, to a grand jury, and she said, I never saw my friend, whoever it was, shoot a gun at that person. and when they looked at video footage from the location, they saw Little Kim opening the doors for the same person

who she said she never saw pull a gun. They saw the person pulling the gun right next to Little Kim and firing. Now, in a situation like that, we're talking about a criminal case and she lied. That was undisputed. The video showed her on the premises, seeing what she said she never saw. And under oath she testified,

They prosecuted her for perjury, and she did, I think, about a year in jail. In a situation like that, the government would go after a declarant who made a bold face lie like that. But in Amber's position, I think it's different. And also, they're looking at it from the standpoint that it's a civil issue. She never really had him arrested and charged with rape. So in that regards, maybe that's why they're treating it kind of. kind of like with kid gloves, because he didn't do jail time for what she's saying. But, but just to play devil's advocate, if this was an example, in a civil case,

if she says Johnny Depp on May 21st, 2016 at 8 p.m., threw a cell phone at my face hitting me, and they have a video of him at a Dodgers game, okay, showing that he was not even with her at that time. And they present that, and clearly, you know, he would win the case. Would a prosecutor then say, she clearly, wow. under the stand, lied on the stand? You got me there. The answer would be yes. Okay.

If he wasn't even on site, there's no issue of proving that she lied beyond a reasonable doubt. Okay. So for all of our listeners who've been asking this question about whether or not Amber Heard would be charged or could be charged with perjury, the answer, Marie, you could correct me if I'm wrong, is obviously anything is possible, but it is extremely unlikely. The burden of proof is incredibly high to prove that kind of. of charge. And this is more of a case where whatever was presented in this civil trial doesn't necessarily mean that this event didn't happen, not necessarily that Amber Hurd was never

sexually assaulted by Johnny Depp or never physically assaulted, but what was presented to this jury was not enough for her to overcome a defamation claim, correct? Correct. Okay. Marie Pereira, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. This was so much fun. It was great having you on here. We should have had you on a little bit more during the crux of the Johnny Depp Anver Heard Sidebar podcast, but I'm sure once we continue this, we're going to have you on again. So thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. All right, this has been Sidebar. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jesse Weber. We'll speak to you next time.

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