Law&Crime Sidebar - Child Killer Susan Smith Teases 'Sugar Daddies' Ahead of Potential Prison Release

Episode Date: July 7, 2024

Susan Smith killed her two sons, a three-year-old and a 14-month-old , in 1994 by pushing her car into a lake while the boys were still strapped into their car seats. The South Carolina mom was sentenced to life in prison, with the possibility of release after 30 years. As her first parole hearing approaches, Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber sits down with former prosecutor Matt Mangino to take a closer look at the heinous crime, Smith’s behavior behind bars, and what she had to say during steamy conversations with multiple suitors.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Get 50% off of confidential background reports at https://www.truthfinder.com/lcsidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. views shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. A woman who murdered her two young sons in the 1990s in an infamous case is hoping she'll get out of prison suit. Yep, Susan Smith is getting ready for her first parole hearing. And according to reports, she's got big plans for when she gets out. We're diving into the history of this case in Smith's current projects with former prosecutor, Batman Gino. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

Susan Smith, you remember her? She became a household name in the 90s when she was convicted of killing her own sons by drowning them in a lake in South Carolina. Well, now the question becomes, is she about to be released from prison? Is that a real possibility? Because we have a parole hearing coming up. So we're going to discuss that. But now I'm going to give you a little bit of backstory. So Smith had married David Smith in 1991, and they had two sons together, three-year-old

Michael and 14-month-old Alexander. Remember the ages of these boys? Because on October 25, 1994, Smith reported to police that a black man carjactor took all with her sons inside the car and for more than a week Smith had made public pleas for their safe return getting emotional that is until she eventually confessed that she was the one who killed their sons that she had let her car roll into a lake drowning the boys who were trapped in their car seats it's horrific it's horrific horrific horrific and earlier this year and Jeanette

Levy spoke with the prosecutor in this case Tommy Pope for the long crimes podcast crime fix about this case. Let's hear what he had to say. Yeah, you know, it's, I mean, I've been to it in my law enforcement career and in my prosecution career, I've been to a lot of crime scenes and I went there intentionally because, you know, we'd already kind of dealt with the nine days media pressure. So you knew it was going to be, OJ Simpson was going on at the time. And this was, you know, I'd had a lot of, you know, big cases. But media wise, this one, you know, Susan Smith herself had kind of drawn it along. you know crying about the babies and needing help so I went down for one obviously

to see what was occurring but two so that later on if I got tired or I got worn out and you know didn't want to proceed I'd remember what it was about and so what I saw that night was a car pulled out with the two boys still in the car seats I saw grown men crying and again I think it was as much of the tragedy is the heartbreak because people have been searching for those kids that people have been searching for those carjackers working working working hoping to recover those kids and then to see it come to that it was it was devastating I always remember because I had a young son at the time the difficulty we go through as parents swapping those car seats I'm going to take them out of my

car and put them in your car and then we're going to get the kids in it and you know it's really a lot of work to keep them safe and I did see see kind of some raw irony that, you know, the very devices that are supposed to protect them ultimately with the implements of their death. Now, how did Smith explain herself, right? Well, Smith told investigators she was not in the right state of mind and said that she hadn't planned the murders. She went to trial in 1995. The prosecution argued she was trying to get rid of her sons so that she could continue on with an affair that she was having with a former lover who did not want children. The defense argued that Smith,

had severe mental health trauma issues that prevented her from thinking rationally that this was connected to years-long sexual abuse that she allegedly suffered. Well, it took the jury a little more than two hours to convict Susan Smith of murder. And during the penalty phase of her trial, the prosecution, they moved forward with the death penalty. But the jury eventually opted for life in prison. And she was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole in 30 years, which now brings us to what we're talking about today, because that is what we're approaching. Smith's first chance at parole after being locked away in South Carolina prisons for three decades. Her parole hearing is scheduled for November 4th. I want to bring in

former prosecutor Matt Mangino, friend of the program, to talk about this case. First of all, Matt, before we even get into the idea of whether or not she could be released, do you remember the Susan Smith case, right? It was infamous across the country. Well, it's certainly. It certainly was. And Jesse, it was one of those early cases that really generated a lot of national publicity about this case because it was so horrendous. And, you know, I can certainly remember in the 90s when this case was being tried and actually got to know Tommy Pope, the prosecutor in this case, who you mentioned earlier, who did a fantastic job in prosecuting this case. Hey, everybody. This episode of Sidebar is sponsored by TruthFinder, and it makes sense since we cover a lot of stories where we ask how well do we really know the people in our lives. Well, TruthFinder is a service that can maybe provide some answers because it's one of the largest public records search services in the United States. You go on the website, TruthFinder.com, and you type in a name. And within minutes and a paid subscription purchase, you can access unlimited reports that can include information like phone numbers, location history, criminal and traffic records. including possible arrests, criminal convictions. Also, if you type in an address within the report, it shows you registered sex offenders in that area,

which honestly is just kind of wild to see. So whether it's researching new dates or friends or reconnecting with people, TruthFinder is a great tool. And right now, you can get 50% off of your first month of confidential background reports at truthfinder.com slash LC Sidebar. Remember, like you said, this was in the 90s. We didn't have social media. We didn't have the way a story is amplified today.

So it just gives everybody kind of an idea of how big it was that so many people knew about it, given the, again, I use this word, but the horrifying circumstances that were involved here. You think that there's a chance a child killer could be paroled, at least her first chance at parole? Well, certainly she would be eligible for parole. And Jesse, you know, I spent six years on the parole board in Pennsylvania. So I made literally thousands of decisions with regard to parole. This is a horrific case. I mean, the fact pattern is just outrageous what happened to these children being strapped in their seats, their car seats and just pushed into the lake to drown.

And the underlying charge, the underlying crime is certainly very impactful with regard to parole consideration. Now, you know, in individual states, there are parole guidelines which have been established that parole board members used, you know, might include risk assessments, their conduct in prison, certainly the crime, whether they're remorseful, whether they've taken responsibility. But everything is on the table. So, you know, if you're out there talking on you know, recordings from the jail and, you know, asking people for money and, you know, all that stuff is not off the table. So let's explore that a little bit because you led it perfectly into what I'm going to talk

about next, that Smith has been not what you might call maybe a model inmate while she's been locked away. She has been reportedly caught using drugs. she has been reportedly having sexual relations with prison guards. I mean, we just did a sidebar episode with prison consultant Justin Paperney, who says that the number of corrections officers caught having sexual relationships with incarcerated people is astronomical. So the two men in this case, they were apparently Captain Alfred Rowe Jr.

and Lieutenant Houston Kegel in 2000, Smith was disciplined for having sex four times with Kagle, who's a 50-year-old prison guard. He pled guilty, spent three months in jail. The following year, Roe also pled guilty, was sentenced to five years probation, both lost their jobs. I mean, this kind of behavior, this is something the parole board would look into, right? Oh, no question. I mean, your conduct in prison is a significant consideration with regard to parole. And certainly her conduct is outrageous.

You know, not only did she have sexual relations with guards, but she's, you know, on the phone, you know, talking about sex and talking about, you know, money and how someone's going to help them when they got out of prison. Plus, what appears to be sort of her hubris that she thinks she's getting out in November. And, you know, she's telling people, you know, I'm going to be paroled. And that's not a good look for the parole board. Let's, let's amplify that a little bit because according to prison officials, she had stayed out of trouble since 2015.

but according to family members, she is very, been very busy with planning her life if she should be released because the New York Post is reporting that according to South Carolina prison call records or recordings, Smith told one love interest that it's time for me to get out, I've done my time, I'm ready. Remember, this is a woman who was convicted of killing her two young children. Then in another call, she asks a suitor how she can support herself once she's out. And he basically tells her not to worry that there's this large nest of money waiting, that's the reports, that there's this combination of a sale of family property and gifts and money he himself has saved up.

According to the post, the man said, I made a spreadsheet that starts out with $213,000. You're going to have more than that. I think you'll be in the $220,000 range all put together. You can do $40,000 a year while you're withdrawing from that balance. It's still earning interest on the undrawn amount. In 20 years' time, you will have spent most of that, but you will still have some of it left over. Now, he and Smith have then professed their love for one another. They apparently engaged in phone sex.

And according to call log, Smith has had what you could call very sexually charged relationships or communications with at least a dozen men outside the prison over the last three years. In fact, the outlet, the messenger, reported that Smith told one man, she thinks she'd be a good stepmom. And apparently, this man allegedly agreed, saying, yeah, you'd be great, babe. Apparently, another man said that Susan Smith is not what you think she is. She's a good person who did something terrible when she was young and not in her right mind. People can change. You go back, Matt, to that idea of a lack of remorse here, right? And I'm not saying that there's not people who commit terrible crimes and lie about their crimes

like she did when this happened. But this behavior and these communications, um, And I'm not saying those people can't eventually be released, but this behavior and what she's saying now, that could be her downfall, right? Well, there's no question, Jesse. You know, when I served as a parole board member, one thing that I was always interested in was, number one, did the defendant or the prisoner at this point, did they accept responsibility, genuinely accept responsibility? And number two, were they remorseful about it? Did they have any empathy for the victims? Did they were able to articulate what they've learned in programming well in prison and how that's helped them to be a better person and to function in society?

You know, everything that I've read about with regard to Susan Smith indicates that she hasn't, she hasn't learned anything while she's been in prison. And she has no empathy, you know, remorse is non-existent, at least from what I can see in terms of her conversations with people and her conduct in prison. So, you know, the likelihood of her being paroled on her first go-round, I would say, is near zero. Well, that's the question, right? I think that there's a point of it also that if she's talking about being near children, like I would be a great stepmom, you talk. about the risk to them in community. Isn't that the biggest factor as a part of anything? I mean, first of all, I'd have to say, whatever she ends up telling the parole board,

don't they have trouble believing anything she says because she was tried to create this ruse that a black man was responsible for this? Now, you could say, oh, she's changed in 30 years, but I don't know how you get past that point, or do you? Well, yeah, that's going to be difficult because, you know, she has. you know a reputation for being untruthful and she has you know this is a woman who who murdered her children and then went on television you know and begged for their return okay so you know this is not you know conduct that that you typically would see in a human being let alone a mother so so you're always going to have that

sort of underlying concern about whether she's being truthful whether she's a genuine in her statements to the parole board. You know, she's going to be thoroughly grilled during a parole hearing because the parole board is going to want to dig into these issues. They're going to want to learn more about her. And the most important thing is, has this person changed? Has there been some change in them because of their incarceration, because of the programming and treatment that's available to them in prison. And that's the thing that you're looking at. Are they a different person? Can they function in the community safely with regard to others and even to themselves?

By the way, let's go back a second. David Smith, Susan's former husband, the father of these two boys, you might be asking what happened to him. Well, the couple suit each other for divorce. They both claim the other was cheating on them. The divorce was granted in 1995 after the deaths of their children, but before her trial began, he went on to write a tell-all book called Beyond All Reason My Life with Susan Smith. He remarried, had more children, and indications are that he will oppose Smith's release. Matt, how much does it matter the victim's family, what their wishes are in terms of parole? I mean, have you run up into issues where the victim's family has said, we do not approve of this? We are opposing the parole, and yet parole is granted.

Well, yeah, Jesse. There's a lot of input and there's a lot of consideration of what victims say. In fact, while I was on the pool board, there was actually a change in the process where victims could only write letters when I first joined the board. By the time I left, they could actually appear and testify as to the impact and their concerns about the future. But not only do victims have an impact, which has a great deal to do with decision-making. But, you know, Tommy Pope can write a letter as the prosecutor at the time setting forth his position. The judge who presided over the case can set forth their position. Those are all things that the parole board can take into consideration. Plus, the Department of Corrections can also put forth their position. So you have all of this input, you know, from people who had direct contact with this case. case and direct contact with her during her imprisonment. And so those are important factors that the parole board considers as well.

Let's say she's denied 52 years old right now, I believe. When would be her next chance for parole? Well, you know, typically what happens, say, for instance, in Pennsylvania, once you're denied parole, you have a scheduled parole hearing within a year. So, or I should say at least the year out. So, you know, the nomenclature in prison is you got a one-year hit, which means you're going to stay there for another year until you're interviewed again for parole. Again, that doesn't guarantee that you're going to be paroled, but you will be reviewed by the board on an annual basis. Now, the parole board could actually say, you know what, we don't want to see you for five years.

now in pennsylvania and i'm not sure with how it works in south carolina but in pennsylvania you could apply after a year to be interviewed again but the likelihood that you're going to be paroled within that five year period if the board says we don't want to see for five years you know you you kind of see the handwriting on the wall so it so yeah there there are nuances state by state oh boy well susan smith back in the news we'll see what happens Matt Mangino, great seeing you, my friend. Thank you. Thank you, Jesse. All right, everybody. That's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar.

Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this long crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.