Law&Crime Sidebar - Depp v. Heard Week 4 Recap

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

*CONTENT WARNING AND TRIGGER WARNING*This episode contains graphic claims of sexual violence.Law&Crime's Angenette Levy recaps week four of the Johnny Depp v. Amber Heard trial. The week began with Johnny Depp's legal team calling its final witnesses to testify about the Washington Post op-ed and the damages it caused to Depp's reputation and his finances. Amber Heard's team called a forensic psychologist to testify about her mental health. Amber Heard took the stand and testified that Johnny Depp physically and sexually assaulted her before and during their marriage. Heard also mentioned British supermodel Kate Moss. Was it a fatal mistake for Heard's defense? Will Kate Moss testify? WATCH THE FULL EPISODE HERE:Law&Crime YouTubeREAD FULL TRIAL RECAPS HERE:lawandcrime.comSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsFloyd Abrams Speaking FreelyObjections See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. views shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that will

keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. This is the most painful and difficult thing I've ever gone through for sure. Amber Hurd takes the stand to defend herself against a defamation claim by her ex-husband Johnny Depp. I feel this boot in my back. It just

kicked me in the back. I fell to the floor. I caught myself on the floor and I just felt like I was looking at the floor of the plane felt like a long time. I thought to myself, I don't know what to do.

I can't believe he just did he just kick me. So who will the jury believe? I'm Ann Jeanette Levy and welcome to Law and Crime Sidebar, where we look at the biggest moments of week four of Johnny Depp v. Amber Heard. And what a week it was. Johnny Depp wrapped up his case and Amber Heard started hers. As Johnny Depp wrapped up his case, one of his security guards, Travis McGivorne, said he witnessed part of an argument between Depp and Heard in March 2015.

What do you remember Ms. Heard saying to Mr. Depp on this? occasion. Jeez. Anything and everything. Specifically, there was the, you're washed up. You're a . Which he called her as well.

You're, again, the deadbeat dad. beat dad's, um, yeah, I don't even remember what the fight was about, but it was, um, it was pretty, the F word is my favorite word and it was being thrown around to the point where I was uncomfortable. McGiborne said that Depp wanted to leave the penthouse, so he got in touch with nurse Debbie Lloyd, who was treating Depp for addiction. They went to the penthouse together. It was the middle of the night. Mr. Depp went upstairs and rearranged her closet for her. Um, threw down probably every rack of clothing and shoes, um, through one, at least one down the stairs.

Um, yeah, he, he, he was upset. upset. McGivorne said Hurd threw a can of Red Bull at Depp and even spit in his direction. She was agitated. Mr. Depp was agitated. I felt it was time to get Mr. Depp out of the situation. So I stepped in between Ms. Heard and Mr. Depp telling Mr. Depp that we were that we were leaving and that it wasn't up to him anymore. At that point, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a fist and an arm come across my right shoulder. And I heard and saw a closed fist contact Mr. Depp in the left side of his face. And whose fist was that? That was Ms. Hurd's fifth.

Amber Heard's fist. How did Mr. Depp respond when he was punched? Hmm. The initial look on his face, kind of mirrored mine, kind of a look of shock, like what just happened, where did that come from? At that point, I wasn't going to let Mr. Depp. get hit anymore so i moved him down the last flight of stairs to the lower level um and told him we're leaving it like it wasn't it wasn't up to him anymore um just for his safety

i didn't again i had let him get hit by a red bull can i let him get punched my job is to ensure the safety and well-being of my clients and i felt like i'd hadn't done that. But on cross-examination, Hurd's lawyer Ben Rottenborn suggested that Amber Hurd was actually trying to protect her sister, Whitney, from Johnny Depp. She could have been standing in between Mr. Depp and Ms. Hurd, right? No, because I stepped in between Ms. Hurd and Mr. Depp. So she definitely wasn't standing in between them. Well, in fact, you saw Mr. Depp push or shove Whitney Hurd, correct? Absolutely not. And it was only after Mr. Depp pushed Whitney that Amber stepped forward and punched him in the face. Isn't that right?

That is not correct. Then we got to the heart of this case and possible damages, the defamation. Depp's talent manager testified about Hurd's December 2018 Washington Post op-ed over which Depp is suing. My testimony is that it reads like a victim statement from someone involved. and the recipient and it became a, yes, a bit of a death nail catastrophic thing for Mr. Depp in the Hollywood community. Wiggum said Depp hasn't had a studio film since the op-ed. On cross-examination, Heard's attorney suggested that was due to the story in the Sun tabloid in the UK, in which Dan Wooten called Depp a wife-beater. Heard's lawyer suggested that the ensuing suit by Depp, which he lost, really to blame for his loss of film roles. It was also suggested that Depp was being cut from Pirates of the Caribbean 6 before the op-ed.

But would it be fair to say that you have never seen a document that provides that Mr. Depp was going to be in Pirate 6? It would be fair to say that I have not seen a document on pirates. Now, just so you know, I don't, Mr. Wiggum, Mr. Wiggum, I don't, I don't need you to give me extra. I just want you to answer mine. I just want to know, have you ever seen a document that says Mr. Depp is going to be in Pirate 6? I only, to fully answer the question, though, I think there's some context. That's an easy yes or no. Have you seen a document?

Technically, I perhaps have because it connects to all the other Pirates films. It's just a modification of a new document. So I have not seen 22.5 million written on a page. You're correct about that. Next up, Richard Marks, a Hollywood insider, a real mover and shaker who knows how movie deals are made. He talked about Johnny Depp's reputation in Hollywood. He was, you know, one of the, one of the guys. And it, I never heard any.

complaints, you know, if you will. Do you have an opinion about the impact of the publication of the op-ed on Mr. Depp's reputation in Hollywood? It's devastating. It's the type of claim, the Me Too claim of sexual violence, domestic abuse, that has canceled a list of actors. Chris Knoth recently, I just read something about Frank Langella. We know newscasters, Les Moonvez, head of ABCBS. Now Johnny Depp is in their ranks. A really interesting point that Marks made, he said this op-ed wasn't published in a rag.

It was in the Washington Post, and he says that Hollywood was the target audience. It is geared to Hollywood. It says two years ago, when I was getting my divorce, Amber Hurd is saying, I was the abuser, and you didn't, Hollywood. You stood up for my abuser, not for me. Injection, how he's mischaracterizing with that. I think he's expressing his understanding. of how that was perceived. I'll overrule objection.

Go ahead. Thank you. What I'm saying is Hollywood got the subject matter of the op-ed loud and clear. Amber Hurd was calling out Hollywood

for supporting since 2016 supporting her abuser and she felt the wrath of Hollywood. She was calling them out to do something in the Washington Post and on the eve of her biggest film, a big film for Hollywood.

The publicity machine was in high gear. There was lots of publicity and news out there. This was the height of her fame, and she used it at that moment to call Hollywood out. In my opinion, as a member of Hollywood, they heard that plea loud and clear, and it also got her publicity for her movie. I don't think that that, in my perception, in people in Hollywood, didn't see that as a coincidence that date. And so, yeah, in Hollywood, I think the message was received that she was sending. We also heard more about Amber Hurd and her health, including her mental health. Her former nurse, Aaron Borum Falati, testified that Hurd told her she had a history of a number of issues, including anxiety, bipolar disorder, attention deficit disorder, issues with codependency, and occasional insomnia.

Falati also wrote in her notes that Hurd reported being addicted to both cocaine and liquor in the past and that Hurd told her she drank between one and three glasses of red wine each day. She then answered questions about Hurd having problems being away from Depp. Is this description of Ms. Hurd having feelings of insecurity and jealousy when not in the presence of Mr. Depp? Is that consistent with your recollection when you were treating Ms. Hurd? I wouldn't say all the time that was an issue. I have a vague sense of those issues popping up throughout the years, but I wouldn't say that that was a constant theme. But you do have recollections of that being an issue at some time in the trip while you were treating. I would say that's a fair statement.

This is an important point for Depp's case. Falati's notes also stated that Heard was jealous of Depp's fame and him interacting with women often. Follati Sahl Heard the day after she returned from Australia in March of 2015. That is when Heard claims that Depp physically and sexually assaulted her over three days. Do you recall how long you spent with Ms. Heard that following day? I don't recall. My note states that I met her for dinner at 2,200, which the military time would be 10 p.m. I don't recall how long I was with her.

So I would assume a couple hours, but again, that I'm just making an assumption. Do you recall observing any injuries to miss her when you saw her on March 9th, 2015? No, I don't recall. I don't make note of it, but I don't, I don't recall either. If Ms. Hurd had had visible injuries, is that something that you would have documented in your nursing notes? I would assume so. Do you recall Ms. Hurd seeking any medical treatment

from you when you saw her on March 9th, 2015? Don't recall. If Ms. Hurd had sought medical treatment from you on that date, is that something you would have documented in your notes? Perhaps if there were requests for medical treatment that differed from sort of day-to-day status, then yes, I might have put it in my notes if I hadn't discussed with Dr. Kipper, but I don't make any reference to it in this particular note. Then in December of the same year, Falati's notes reported that she went to the penthouse to deliver medications to herd.

She wrote down what she observed. Client greeted RN at door looking disheveled, hair appeared, unbrushed, client appeared weepy and sad, posture is slouched. Client told Arran about argument with husband. Aran offered emotional support but reminded client that Aran could not say as was on duty with another client and was only visiting in order to deliver medication. Per client, she had not been, she had not had contact with husband since altercation. client had visible bright red blood appearing at center of lower lip when RN made client aware that she was actively bleeding on her lip client stated it was from injury sustained in the and then it's blank you see that and I keep going down in the argument

between her and her husband and that it continues to bleed actively you wrote that yes and then you also wrote clients also states that her head is bruised and that she lost clumps of hair and altercation. You wrote that? I assume so. It's in my notes. Okay. And then you wrote, Arn briefly looked at client's scalp but was unable to visualize the hematoma's client had described. You wrote that?

Yes, I would agree. When questioned by Herds attorneys, Falati discussed her interaction with Johnny Depp following the May 21st, 2016 interaction between Depp and Herd, at the penthouse. You wrote client is going through divorce with wife Amber H and is dealing with the loss of his mother passed away one month ago. Client was provided with the divorce request from wife AH three days after mother passed away. Do you see that? Yes. You wrote that? Yes. So was it your understanding that Amber asked for divorce? This note says that Mr. Depp was provided with divorce request from Ms. Heard.

So it appears she was the one requesting divorce. Right. And you wrote next client states he was not aware. A.H. wanted divorce and expresses confusion regarding A.H.'s desire to terminate marriage. You wrote that? Yes. Is that what Mr. Depp told you? do? I would assume if I wrote it in my notes.

Falati also testified about heard texting her on May 26, 2016, asking for Ambien, calling that week before requesting the restraining order the worst week of her life. Imagine spending 16 years in prison for a crime you didn't commit. Or imagine being on the jury at a trial where you have to decide whether a father murdered a family or whether it was a cartel hit. This is Jillian from court junkie, a podcast that examines criminal cases and trials. Each week, I give you the facts of a new case and let you decide if you agree with the outcome. Make sure to subscribe to court junkie on Apple, Spotify, or any of your favorite podcast apps. Depp's final witness, Mike Spindler, a forensic accountant, he testified about Depp's financial losses following

the publication of the Washington Post op-ed. What does the figure at the bottom corner of the chart, $40,318, $40 million $318,237. What does that represent? Well, that's your grand total. That's the sum of those two components for total lost earnings of $40.3 million. On cross, Heard's lawyers tried to point out that Depp's income was already declining beginning in 2010. After Spindler, Depp's lawyers rested their case, and Heard's lawyers asked Judge Ascarati to strike the defamation suit, but Judge Ascarati denied the request and said the case will go to the jury. Heard called her first witness, Dr. Don Hughes, a forensic psychologist who evaluated Heard. At the end of that process, considering all the data, did you arrive

at any expert opinions? Yes, I did. All right. I'm going, I'd like to start with your main expert opinions and then go through those. Can you please tell the jury what your main main opinions work? So like I said, there are opinions embedded within them, but the main opinion is that Ms. Heard's report of intimate partner violence and the records that I reviewed is consistent with what we know in the field about intimate partner violence, characterized by physical violence, psychological aggression, sexual violence, coercive control, and surveillance behaviors. Dr. Hughes said that she disagreed with Dr. Curry's assessment that herd has both borderline and histrionic personality disorders and also disagreed with currie's

claim that herd does not suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder you had already diagnosed her with PTSD before you did the gold standard correct before i administered the caps 5 there was enough data in the psychological testing and my clinical evaluation to establish that she met criteria for PTSD that is correct dr hughes detailed a number of herd's claims that Depp sexually and physically abused her. The incident in Australia was one of the most severe instances of sexual violence that Ms. Hurd had to endure in which when he was beating her and choking her and telling her, I'm going to fucking kill you, I hate you, I hate you, I'm going to fucking kill you.

And he grabbed a bottle that was on the bar and penetrated her with that bottle. And Ms. Hurd reported to me of dissociating and going outside of her body. and the only thing she was thinking is oh god i hope it's not the broken one hughes said that herd engaged in what she called reactive violence and that it was minimal meaning her violence was in response to depths but on cross-examination depth's lawyer wayne denison played an audio recording of depp and heard and then questioned hughes about it i said to travis i said no i said to you tell travis what just happened oh you told me to do it you told me to you said go do that I said, no, you tell them what you're saying.

And I lied. And that you punched me in the thing. You figured it off. And you said, I didn't. What the fuck I'm talking about? And I watched you lie. I didn't punch you, by the way. I'm sorry that I didn't hit you across the face in a proper slap.

But I was hitting you. It was not punching you. Babe, you're not punched. Don't tell me what it feels like to be punched. You know, even a lot of fights. Been around a long time. I know. No.

No. When you. You didn't get punched. You got hit. I'm sorry I hit you like this. But I did not punch you. I did not fucking deck you. I fucking was hitting you.

I don't know what the boat motion of my actual hand was. But you're fine. I did not hurt you. I did not punch you. I was hitting you. How are you? What am I supposed to do? Do this?

I'm not sitting here bitching about it, am I? You are. That's the difference between me and you. You're a baby. You're such a baby. Girl the fuck up, Johnny. Did you start a physical fights? I did start a physical fight.

Yeah, you did, so I had to get back out of there. Yes, you did. So you did the right thing, the big thing. You know what? You're admirable. You agree with Ms. Hurd that it's admirable to retreat from a fight? Is it admirable? It is admirable to retreat from a fight.

Yeah. Anything about this tape suggests to you that it, it's characteristic of reactive violence? In this instance, if true, if she said she hit him first, then that would not be reactive violence. You cannot testify that Johnny Depp was not abused, can you? I can testify that he had physical acts of violence perpetrated on him as well. as psychological, aggressive acts perpetrated upon him. Amber Hurd was supposed to be the first witness

in her case, but her lawyers made a game-time decision to call Dr. Hughes instead, which laid the groundwork for Amber Hurd's testimony. Why are you here? I am here because my ex-husband is suing me for an op-ed I wrote. And how do you feel about that? I struggle to have the words. I struggle to find the words to describe how painful this is. This is horrible for me to sit here for weeks and relive everything. hear people that I knew, some well, some not. My ex-husband, with whom I shared a life,

speak about our lives and the way that they have. This has been one of the, this is the most painful and difficult. thing I've ever gone through for sure. Herd testified that Depp was physically and verbally abusive even before they married. She recalled the trip to the Hicksville trailer park. Hurd said that they were going to do Laffey drugs out in the desert because there was really nothing else to do. She said a woman with them had taken MDMA and touched her shoulder. Hurd said she had eaten a mushroom but wasn't yet feeling the effects of it. She said Depp threatened to break the woman's wrist saying that's my woman. They went into the trailer to talk about it, and that's when

Heard claims that Depp broke a wall sconce and sexually assaulted her. He's like grabbing my breasts. He's touching my thighs. He rips my underwear off. And then he He proceeds to do a cavity search. He said he was looking for his drugs, his cocaine, his Coke. I was wondering how I, somebody who didn't do cocaine and was against it. That was in and of itself causing problems in our relationship. How could I hide? Why would I hide his drugs from, like he was insinuating that I was doing it or something?

It made no sense. And he was telling me, we're going to conduct a cavity search, shall we? Like, just shoved his fingers inside me. I just stood there staring at the stupid light. You know what, you know, I didn't know what to do. I just stood there. While he did that, he twisted his fingers around. Johnny Depp raised his eyebrows as heard spoke.

His account of that night is different. In June of 2013, Hurd said that she was torn and wanted to want to leave Johnny Depp. The next month, she said Depp choked her while they were in the Bahamas for talking about his drinking with his then teenage daughter, Lily Rose. Despite this, Hurd said that she accepted his proposal of marriage in September 2013, calling Depp the love of her life. Depp proposed in London, where Hurd was filming London Fields with Billy Bob Thornton. The proposal, she said, happened in the same hotel where she in Depp had consummated their relationship two years earlier. He got down on one knee and said, I want you to be my girl, be my girl forever. My woman, my girl, I want you to be the rest of my life, say yes to me.

He said he wanted to spend every day. he promised me that every day when I woke up that I would wake up and he would make me smile at least once and that would be his goal and you know I looked into

his eyes and I saw my future hope you know like blind hope so in love It was one of the most, I can't describe that kind of joy, you know, I thought, you know, if we were married, then this is real. Heard, of course, said yes, and she claimed Depp wanted her to work less, and that he was jealous of her career.

And he would say, you don't have to work, kid, let me take care of you, my woman doesn't have to work. And that sounds really sweet and really romantic in some way, but it became a real thing. fight. Every time I got a script, it was what kind of, you know, how I was dressing, what kind of behavior I'd have, what, how did I have a sex scene? And then I started saying, no, I won't take the sex scenes or, you know, I'll take the part where I don't play, you know, that kind of character, or then I started minimizing the kinds of kissing scenes that I had. And eventually I had to change the wardrobe that I could have in the movie. I couldn't have a, couldn't have a sex scene, but that all, you know, was, it didn't happen all at once, of course. It was little thing

after a little thing, after little thing. Heard went on to describe another incident in November of 2013. You know, these kids were, I found them to be these beautiful, wildly intelligent little weirdos in the best way you know they were I was falling in love with them and you know they they were in my life at that time a short amount of time but I I loved it and I felt I started to feel very protective and this argument happened because the Johnny was I didn't agree that this gentleman, it was a famous musician over the age of 18,

spent the night at the house, and I felt protective over Lily Rose and concerned. And naturally, they're not, they were not my children. It's not my place. And I understand that. I know it's a sensitive subject, so I understand. why Johnny got so upset with me.

But that and the introduction of the weed with his daughter, she was so young, I just felt protective. Heard testified about an incident following the Metgala in 2014, where she said Depp accused her of flirting with a woman. Heard is bisexual. And Johnny starts asking me about this woman. He thought I was looking at this woman in a, sexual way, he was accusing me of flirting, and that's how the argument started.

I don't recall what other accusations I was fielding at that moment, but typically, in my experience with him, it wasn't just one. So you'd make a point, and then he would go on to a different accusation. But I remember that what started it is this accusation that I had been flirting at this event. We get back to the hotel room. and Johnny shoves me and kind of grabs me by the collarbone area like not really my neck but top of my neck above my collarbone below my neck

I think at that point when we were still in the living room I shoved him back but I can't I don't really recall too many specifics I remember he threw a bottle at me it missed me but it broke the chandelier and at some point I remember maybe this was the shove that I was talking about, but at some point Johnny and I are in its struggle in the living room and he kind of like shoves me down on the sofa and I get up and I'm trying to get him off

of me and it's just stronger than me. I don't know how to describe it and at some point he just wax me in the face. Then in May of 2014, Hurd said that she started. started filming a movie with James Franco, sparking an argument on that plane ride we've heard so much about from Boston to Los Angeles. Depp had been in Boston filming Black Mass. He was mad at me for taking the job with James Franco. He hated James Franco and was already accusing me of kind of secretly having a thing with him in my past since we had. done Pineapple Express together.

Heard said that she and Depp argued about James Franco on the flight. She testified that Depp slapped her face during the argument. I got up to move again and he's just taunting me, having a laugh, screaming, and then just straight up mean calling me names. And it was oscillating between those things and I get up slowly again and I just resolved to just sit the rest of the time up at the front of the plane. and as I get up he kind of kicks the swivel chair

into my hip kind of just hits me and I look at him and he asked me what what are you going to do about it I just stared at him I just stared at him

and wanted him to see me I wanted to get through to him didn't feel there was like it felt like there was a blackness in his eyes. I wanted to look at him. I wanted him to see me. It didn't even feel like him. And as I'm walking away, slowly trying not to be, I was being very deliberate about my movements, wasn't saying anything, I wasn't engaging. I am walking away from him slowly and he tells me to hurry the fuck up. Hurry up. And I just,

look at him one more time, wanting to penetrate the monster to see the man that I love underneath that. The man I loved. And he tells me to hurry up again. And I pull my gaze away from him. I walk away from him. My back has turned to him, and I feel this boot in my back. it just kicked me in the back i fell to the floor i caught myself on the floor and i just felt like i was looking at the floor of the plane for felt like a long time and i didn't i thought to myself i don't know what to do i can't believe he just did he just kick me no one said anything no one did anything. Now remember, this differs from Depp's account of what happened. His friend Keenan Wyatt had testified he didn't see Depp act violently toward Hurd at all. Hurd's lawyer played a recording

of Depp from the plane. She claims he was blacked out. Herd then described Depp's detox from the painkiller roxycodone on his island in the Bahamas. That also happened in 2014. Heard claimed Depp slapped her in the face. It was for the first few days, okay, peaceful. I, the nurse, and then later, nurse and doctor, we're staying on a different part of the island. a few minutes drive by ATV, like 10, 15 minute, you know, by one of those ATV vehicles. But we communicated via walkie-talkie and occasionally through texts.

And it was just, it was okay at first. And then the behavior, then it just really wasn't okay. It was up, down, he'd be mad at me. Then he was wanting a hug. He cried. a lot and then he, um, you know, wanted to have sex a lot, like, which is just not like Johnny at all. The comment about Johnny Depp not liking to have sex a lot really seemed to be kind of a dig that she threw in there at the last second. She then went on to detail one of the most

violent assaults that she alleges. She says it happened in March 2015 when Johnny Depp was filming Pirates of the Caribbean Five. This is when Depp says heard through vodka. bottles at him, leading to part of his right middle finger being severed. But Herd described it much differently, saying Depp had taken between 8 and 10 ecstasy pills. She admits that they argued and that she actually slammed a bottle of liquor on the floor. Then she said Depp ripped off her nightgown and assaulted her with a liquor bottle. I felt this pressure. I felt this pressure. I just saw his arm. I could feel his arm moving and I, it looked like he was punching me.

But I could just feel this pressure. It was like, it kept hitting, it didn't feel pain, it was just a pressure on my pubic bone. I don't know. I don't remember what I said. I just remember being really still, not wanting to move. I remember looking around the room. I remember. looking at all the broken bottles broken glass and I remember her that it's just not wanting to

move because I didn't know if it was broken I didn't know if the bottle that he had inside me was broken I convinced myself it wasn't broken and that I that I that the bottle wasn't broken or else it would be a lot worse and the discomfort I was feeling afterwards just paled in comparison to how scared shocked I was scared I'm scared I just married this man I just married him and forgive me for asking this but I need to just make sure the records clear. You were penetrated up the vagina into the pubic bone. Is that correct? Objection, Your Honor. Leading. Sustained. What if any penetration was there in your vagina?

The bottle. I can't believe. I'm so sorry. I am so sorry. Johnny had the bottle inside of me. and was shoving it inside of me over and over again. During his testimony, Johnny Depp denied ever sexually or physically assaulting Amber Hurd.

Hurd also described an argument after Australia where she said that she saw text messages on Depp's iPad between him and a woman. Hurd said that Depp and this woman had been intimate in the past, and she admitted to punching Johnny Depp. She says in defense of her sister, Whitney, my sister, all of a sudden put herself in between Johnny and I.

She just threw herself, like in the line of fire or whatever. She just all of a sudden was there and was trying to get Johnny to stop. Her back was to the staircase. And Johnny swings at her. And I just see my little sister with her back on face, her back to the staircase. And Johnny swings at her. And I don't even wait. Don't even wait for any other.

I don't hesitate. I don't wait. I just in my head instantly think of Kate Moss and the stairs. And I swung in him. Kate Moss, of course, is the stunning British supermodel that John Depp dated in the 1990s. Right after Heard said Kate Moss, Depp smiled, and his attorney Ben Chu turned around and smiled broadly, giving his legal team a fist pump. Some of our legal eagles believe this comment opened the door for Depp's team to cross-examine Herd about her past

relationships, including an incident in which it was alleged that Hurd assaulted her ex-wife. Another reason this is interesting. During the UK trial, Hurd testified that two people told her that Johnny Depp had thrown Kate Moss down a flight of stairs when the couple dated. We're working to learn more about that specific claim. But a source close to Johnny Depp told me that Kate Moss and Johnny Depp remain friendly and that Moss supports Depp. Now back to the incident in the penthouse where Herd said it was the first time she had ever hit Johnny Depp.

In all of my relationship to date with Johnny, I hadn't landed a blow. I, for the first time, hit him, like actually hit him. Square in the face. He didn't push my sister down the stairs. And all of my time, all my time of being in that relationship to that point, hadn't even landed one on Johnny. Heard also discussed incidents later in that year, one of them taking place in the Bahamas, where she said she threw a can at Johnny Depp's face. She claimed that he had started it and been physically violent with her. When court ended for the week, Heard was still testifying on direct examination. Depp's lawyer Camille Vasquez will cross-examine Amber Heard. So we're going to have to wait, unfortunately, until the week of May 16th, to watch that

cross-examination and to see whether or not Kate Moss will testify during Johnny Depp's rebuttal. case. Until then, we have great content for you to watch on Law and Crimes YouTube channel, and we will still be producing episodes of Sidebar. So watch out for that. It's going to be a lot of great shows with some bonus content, and you can find our podcast, of course, on Apple, YouTube, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. I'm Anjanet Levy, and thanks for joining us for this edition of Law and Crime Sidebar. We'll see you next time. You can binge all episodes of this long crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.