Law&Crime Sidebar - Everything We Know About Accused Killer Nick Reiner

Episode Date: December 17, 2025

Who exactly is Nick Reiner? The 32-year-old son of acclaimed director Rob Reiner and Michele Singer is now charged with their brutal murder. Genesee County, Michigan sheriff Chris Swanson joins Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber for a full deep dive on the suspect, exploring Nick's troubled past, his fight with addiction, his difficult relationship with his famous parents, and the explosive altercation just 24 hours before the killings. PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Stop guessing - start making perfect food every time. Use code SIDEBAR for 30% off - https://chefiq.com/discount/SIDEBARHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger, Christina O'Shea, Alex Ciccarone, & Jay CruzScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrimeTwitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Today I'm here to announce that our office will be filing charges against Nick Reiner, who was accused of killing his parents, actor-director Rob Reiner, and photographer, producer, Michelle Singer-Riner. These charges will be two counts of first-degree murder with a special circumstance of multiple murders. Who exactly is Nick Reiner?

For the guy accused of brutally murdering his famous parents, Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer, in their home, what would lead him to do this if this is true? What is his background? What was the relationship? This is a full deep dive on the suspect in one of the most shocking celebrity crimes of all time. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Okay, so this is a unique episode of Sidebar.

We definitely wanted to do a deep dive onto this. This is a rapidly evolving story. And the reason that we can bring you a story like this and do a deep dive on Nick Reiner is because we get amazing support from our sponsor. And this one, actually, I will tell you, if you're looking for a deal this holiday season on the perfect gift, I have to mention them. It's the Chef IQ Sense Smart Meat Thermometer. Okay, right here, this is the secret to stress-free, flawless cooking.

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It works for the oven, the grill, the smoke, or the air fryer. You really can't mess this up. It is the gift that makes cooking stress-free and fun. And with my code sidebar, you can save 30%. right wide at ChefIQ.com. Let's talk about Nick Reiner, the 32-year-old who has officially been charged with two counts of first-degree murder with special circumstances of multiple murders in connection with the deaths of his father, acclaimed director Rob Reiner, and his mother, photographer and producer

Michelle Singer out in L.A. They were found brutally killed in their Brentwood, California home on Sunday. Now, it has been reported, although it hasn't been officially confirmed by authorities that they sustained multiple stab wounds. And now he faces life in prison or even the possibility of the death penalty. It is an absolute shock. And it is inconceivable. It is inconceivable that a son could do this

to his parents if these allegations are true. So we thought, let's do a deep dive on Nick Reiner, right? We have to understand this. We want to do a deep dive into him because what is his background? What happened here? If these allegations are true, what would drive him to murder his own parents in cold blood by allegedly stabbing them?

Now, Nick Reiner was born on September 14, 1993. He's the second of three children that his father, Rob Reiner, had with Michelle. They married in 1989 when he met her, by the way, on the set of when Harry met Sally. He directed that. Nick's older brother is Jake. His younger sister is Romy, who we're going to talk about too. Now, over the years, we saw Rob and Nick together. For example, Rob was interviewed in 1998 by a Times columnist when Nick was just five.

They were doing this interview over lunch. And Nick apparently fell around the table, as kids do. And Rob said to the reporter, he's floppy. He's always moving around. He was born like that. When he came out, the doctor said, this is a squirmy one. But Nick has reportedly commented that he and his dad, they didn't really bond much when he was younger. According to the blast, friends of the family told the Daily Mail that Nick struggled as a

boy, that he was intense as a child. There was a yoga teacher who worked for the family. She apparently said, quote, Nikki would barge in like the world was on fire, screaming into our yoga sessions. He was really screaming. I have never seen a child like that. She even claimed that the family hired a therapist. But it was his teenage years that were particularly problematic. This is when Nick was apparently fighting heroin addiction, going in and out of rehab. He even wound up homeless. Nick told People Magazine, in 2016 that he went to rehab 17 times that he was homeless in Maine, New Jersey, Texas. He added, I spent nights on the street. I spent weeks on the street. It was not fun.

The New York Times reporting that he began using drugs at 15 years old and entered a drug treatment facility program at that age, so young. And over the years, Nick would talk about this. As reported by the New York Times in 2018, Nick revealed in an interview, on the Dopey podcast that while being awake, you know, wired on cocaine for a long period of time, he destroyed his parents' guest house that he was staying at by, quote, punching out different things, a television, a lamp. He also apparently lost it at a treatment facility by throwing a rock through a window. He said on the podcast, I was so lost. I didn't know anything about myself or the world. And that's all I knew is a coping mechanism. He actually explained this a bit more

in a 2016 interview with comedian Paul McCurio, as reported by the LA Times, where Nick said, quote, I had no identity and I had no passions. And I think the reason I had no identity was because I have a famous dad and a famous grandpa, referring to Carl Reiner. And the fame sort of informs who you are. So I wanted to edge out my own identity with a more rebellious, angry, drug-addicted sort of persona. And he added that he had nothing to do, nothing to look forward to. And it was reportedly very tough for Rob and Michelle. A family friend reportedly claimed that Michelle said, we've tried everything, we don't know what else to do. 2015, it's a very important time to talk about here. Now, not only does Nick apparently get

clean at that time, but he co-writes the film Being Charlie, which was released in 2016, and it's about a young man who is addicted to drugs and his difficult combative relationship with his father. His father being in the movie, a former actor who gets into politics and is basically portrayed as being cold and distant. And it's about their relationship. It's about how this young man tries to recover. Nick's father, Rob Reiner, directed the film. And this proved to be a period in which Nick and Rob grew close. Really learned a lot about that and their dynamic during the press tour for the movie. For example, Rob told the New Yorker, working on this with Nick, was like being in therapy with him. He added on the build series that Nick was the, quote, heart and soul of the

film and that he would look to him to provide, quote, honesty and truth. Meanwhile, Nick told the New Yorker that he learned more about his father and his love for him during this filming, quote, by seeing him in his element doing what he loves most. And Nick added in an interview with people that he had, quote, very loving and supportive parents. According to New York Times, Charles Berg, one of the producers of Being Charlie, said that the film was, quote, a passion project for Rob, and he made that movie for his son. It's all I can tell you. That was his gift back to the world to acknowledge his son to say, I love you, and I want to share your story.

And it was interesting how Rob would seemingly talk about these perceived regrets that he had regarding his son. According to the New York Times, in an interview in 2015, he seemed to suggest that he put too much reliance on professional. when dealing with his son's substance abuse problems, saying we were desperate. And because the people had diplomas on their wall, we listened to them when we should have been listening to our son. Michelle actually added about Nick, we were so influenced by these people.

They would tell us he's a liar that he was trying to manipulate us, and we believe them. Rob Reiner added in that Build series interview, the whole process for me, I can just speak for myself, it did make me understand him a lot more, and I think it made me a better father. Now I say all that. You see a family coming together, what happened? What happened? If the allegations are true, what happened with Nick? That's the tricky part.

Because the time leading up to the moment that Rob and Michelle were killed, except for a party the night before, which we're going to talk about, things with Nick maybe seemed okay. You had cinematographer Barry Markowitz, who told page six that he had recently been living at the Reiner home in Brentwood. According to ABC, a former security guard confirmed that Nick had been apparently living. on his parents' property in a guest house. You go back to that photographer, though, Markowitz said that Nick looked to be normal, quote, on the upswing, that he was playing sports and said this, he looked great. He was sitting and talking with the family.

They ate dinner together, old school, and a lot of love, always a lot of love. He had it, he helped out, he took out the garbage, he watched TV, he washed dishes, and that he didn't notice anything off at all. He cannot explain the 360. That's his perception. Maybe we don't know what was going on. behind the scenes. But he emphasized that Nick's parents were always there for him, quote, they gave him everything, they tried a million things with him, not giving him money, but sending

him to top of the line places. Rob never gave up. He tried everything. If you knew Rob, he was just a bundle of love. And Markowitz said of Michelle, quote, she was the kingpin and she was the strength, the rock. And in fact, let me add this. Rob had recently spoken about his son just this past September. It was on the Fresh Air NPR podcast. And he was asked, look, were you too busy for your son? Did you not pay enough attention to him? And Rob said, no, no, I was never, ever too busy. I mean, if anything, I was the other way. You know, I was more hands on and trying to do whatever I thought I could do to help. And, you know, I'm sure I made mistakes. And, you know, I've talked about that with him since. You know, he's been great. He hasn't been doing drugs

for over six years. I mean, he's in a really good place, much better place. He's a good place now. Now, I will say maybe Nick was clean at that point a few months ago. Can't confirm what he was or wasn't on at this point in time. And I can't confirm that he was steadily clean since being Charlie came out. Because as reported by Ladd Bible, you remember that 2018 interview I mentioned where Nick sat down for the dopey podcast? At that time, he indicated he wasn't sober. Now, he claimed he wasn't abusing heroin, but he also apparently confirmed that relatively shortly after being Charlie came out, he relapsed, quote, that he was back on the dope, and he had what he described as a, quote, cocaine heart attack.

Back to what happened here. One of the difficulties, when we talk about Nick Reiner, and this is reported and outlined very well by the L.A. Times, there is really not a lot known publicly about what Nick has been up to since being Charlie came out. are photos of Nick standing alongside his family this past September at the Egyptian theater in Hollywood. This was for the premiere of Spinal Tap 2. The End Continues, which Rob directed. Nick certainly looks much different. His head is more clothes-shaven. He has a beard. He appears to have put on weight. And according to the New York Post, a family friend claims that Nick was abusing drugs again leading up to the time of the alleged attack and that Rob and Michelle were very worried about his mental state.

recently. The family friends saying, quote, Rob had been telling people that they're scared for Nick and scared that his mental state was deteriorating. These poor people did everything to help this kid. And then we go to 24 hours before the news of Rob and Michelle's deaths. So it has been reported that Nick and Rob got into some sort of altercation at a holiday party that was hosted by Conan O'Brien in the Pacific Palisades. According to the Hollywood reporter in page six, Nick, who was reportedly not invited to the party, by the way, but his parents asked if they could bring him. He was reportedly wandering around the party, interrupting conversations that people were having, and asking things like, what's your name? What's your last name? Are you famous?

And that reportedly included Nick approaching actor Bill Hater, the S&L alum, who reportedly told Nick he was having a private conversation. Nick allegedly just stared at him and then stormed off. And later on is when Rob and Nick apparently got into some sort of confrontation. It has been reported that this was a very loud argument, possibly, about Nick's behavior at that event. And then Rob and Michelle left shortly after. What happens? It's reported that that Sunday that Rob and Michelle's daughter, Romy, who I mentioned before, that she was the one who found them. According to reporting from the New York Times, a massage therapist had gotten a hold of her because she couldn't reach the

couple who had an appointment that day. And actually, this is shocking news. Former First Lady Michelle Obama said on Jimmy Kim alive that she and her husband, former President Barack Obama, they had plans to see Rob and Michelle the day that they were found. So we are talking again, reported multiple stab wounds, and there is even reporting out there. And I hate to say this, that the couple, their throats might have been slit. Now, I will tell you officially the cause of death at this time, at the time of this recording, has not officially been released. But according to TMZ, when law enforcement responded at around 3.40 p.m. that Sunday, the question becomes, had they been dead for several hours? In fact, it was reported that Nick

had checked into the Peerside Santa Monica in the early morning hours that the shower was full of blood. There were apparently bed sheets hanging over the window. So since Rob and Michelle's bodies weren't found until later that day, there does become a question. Could they have been killed and attacked as early as Saturday night after the Conan O'Brien party? You know, it was also reported, by the way, that Romy told authorities that Nick, quote, should be a suspect and that he should be considered dangerous. Now, Nick was arrested only hours later. This was at a subway station near USC at Exposition Park. There's been video that has been released of the moments leading up to that arrest and the arrest. He was apparently at a gas station just minutes before. To be clear,

After I've laid out everything about what we know of Nick Reiner, no motive, no official motive has been listed for the alleged murders. But as I mentioned, he's facing murder charges. He's now apparently being repped by defense attorney Alan Jackson, who, you know, represented Karen Reid. He's a very high profile attorney. And when Nick was doing court yesterday, he didn't show up because according to Jackson, he hadn't been, quote, medically cleared yet.

Now, I'm going to talk more about this, okay? But before I bring on a law enforcement expert to talk about this, the Hollywood reporter's Stephen Zichick spoke about Rob Reiner in the wake of his death. And he apparently had spoken with Rob in the past about Nick's battle with addiction, with Rob reportedly saying, the number one job of any parent is to keep their child safe. And I hadn't done that. And now here I have done that, I kept him safe. He came out alive.

And Zichick said, here in 2025, the world. words kept ricocheting through my brain. Yes, Nick had come out alive. It was Rob that hadn't. So I want to talk right now about all this. I want to talk about the investigation. What might be happening behind the scenes, what this is like. I mean, it's such a high profile case and thinking about the Nick Reiner of it all. So I am joined by an incredibly special guest, somebody that every time we have on, we're like, where's he going to be? One day he's in D.C., one day he's on a cruise ship. One day he's in London. He's sitting with me right now. Chris Swanson, Sheriff, Genesee County Sheriff's Office. Thank you so much for coming on. It's great to see you here in New York. You gave me a great gift. I did. I don't want anybody to forget this. We're going to talk about this at the end. This is a very, very, very special gift. And it means a lot. So thank you so much. We'll talk about this. Now, this is a major story. Major story. I just laid out everything we seem to know about Nick Reiner. And if the allegations are true, Having homicides, having alleged murders committed within the family, do you have experience with this?

Have you ever seen anything like this? It seems, and we don't have all the details. No motive has officially been laid out. But when you're talking about somebody that has this history of drug abuse, it's disturbing. It lays a different aspect to this, different context. What are your initial thoughts? Have you seen anything like this? These are what's called crimes of passion, and there's so much emotion, especially when a staff.

is involved. I recall I went to a scene over 25 years ago where a kid shot his dad and then stabbed them multiple times in the chest, broke the steak knife off in his chest, and kept stabbing it with another knife. And many times when these stabbing happen and you have the person directly in front, there's a reason why they're stabbing multiple times because they're trying to release this rage that's been building up and building up. It's different than just pulling a gun and shooting. You can still kill people that way. But the murders that you see in this particular case, Rob Reiner and his wife, it is a passion, hateful, rage killing. And can it come out of nowhere?

If you ask family and friends, I had no idea something like this was going to happen. And we talk about it all the time. People who, you know, commit murders for the first time, it just can come out. They may have never broken the law before. They may have never been in trouble with the law before. This inner, you know, family dynamics like this, people could be shocked by it. They had no idea this was coming. The 28th of September, a lone wolf shooter drove his truck into the LDS church in Grand Lake Michigan

and shot four people and killed him, wounded seriously eight others, one critical. One hour before he was goose hunting with his friends. He had dead geese in the back of his truck before he ran to the church. Nobody saw it coming. And that's the, you know, kind of the examples here. Many times those families, again, we have to be cautious not to jump to conclusions. But, you know, was there acts of violence that he had shown publicly? Clearly not, but behind the scenes, could there have been?

Yeah, but these people could snap. What is going on behind the scenes in the investigation right now? Obviously, the DA was quite tight-lipped about the evidence, and we don't know a particular motive here, but I laid it all out what we seem to know about Nick Reiner. Are investigators now looking into his entire past? Are they looking into that party that he and his parents attended the night before, apparently at Conan O'Brien's house?

Are they interviewing people from that party? How much do they do a deep dive into what may have, again, if the allegations are true, may have led up to this? So I think it's important to know that this is the kind of investigation where there's probably not another co-conspirator. So that part is done. The victims are dead. The suspects in custody, formerly charged. Why did it happen? That's the bigger question.

And the higher the profile, the killing, the more of those questions need to be answered. So if I was the lead investigator, I would go all the way back to this kid's birth. I'd go back to not only his phone, but every communication. We'd be doing search warrants for every subscription he's ever had any way for him to communicate, but also talking to the family. You know, the daughter that came up on the scene at Cal 9-1, every neighborhood that he lived in, every neighbor that was in that particular location. You want to ask questions because it's like putting a big piece of puzzle together, you know. This person may not think that that piece is a big deal, but when you put it in, it starts to paint the picture. Does the celebrity nature of it affect the investigation?

Does it complicate the investigation? Yeah, absolutely. How so? Because they're such a high profile. I mean, if you look at the people involved, and we were talking about how close that was to the O.J. Simpson murder, you know, with the close. They said it was five minutes away.

Right. And we're still talking about it. I bet you people that, you know, can remember where they were when they saw the white Bronco chase because it captivated. You know, there's murders, unfortunately, they happen all the time, but high profile murders just have a different flavor about it. Just like, you know, people that, you know, kill law enforcement. That has a different flavor because it's still taking a lot.

but there's you know something more to it that's why they're more complicated because there's a there's a higher bar higher standard how do they process the crime scene and how do they process that hotel room that he was apparently staying at where there was you know apparently blood in the shower how do they process that well so you have outside inside primitives and actually the scene so you start as a like a wide lens right and then from there you figure out because this is a crime that has a lot of blood so you're trying to make sure that this pathway that wherever he took you can almost match it recreate the whole thing

And that's what they're going to do. So go back to the house. Obviously, he made entry there. Do we have door cams on the neighbors across the street? When did he make entry? How long was he there? And then they can track his phone. They can ping his phone.

Is he hitting off the towers? Was he there for five minutes? Was he there for 15? Was he sitting outside getting the courage to go in the house? Those are all questions they need to be answered. And then when you're in the house, having two people killed with a knife. They don't die automatically. So was there a struggle between one as he was killing the first one?

You can't kill them both at the same time. It's not like a shooting. So you're going to see, I can't even imagine, the blood that has been spattered throughout the house. They're going to be doing all those different patterns to see where this person was. Unfortunately, when the knife came back or when it came down, that's all, it truly does in a very surreal sense, paint a picture. They haven't even really released more details about how Rob and Michelle were killed. You have the DA saying a knife was used. The cause of death at the time of this recording hasn't been released.

I mean, it seems based on the reporting we can have an idea of what happened to them. Why are authorities being more tight-lipped about certain details? Well, I think you want to keep the integrity of the case, you know, solid. So there's nobody to jump in a conclusion. I read an article just this morning where things that were said a day ago were not accurate. And you don't want people start filling in the blank. So there's a way to, you know, to give as much as you can but withholding information until it's confirmed. Because you put something out there, everybody starts to, you know, make their own conclusions.

And it's not uncommon that the cause and manner of death and toxicologies, DNA, that could take six months. So it's not in a quick investigation. They don't solve, you know, cases in an hour crime show. Will they be able to know exactly when they were killed? Because it's interesting. They come back from the party. Their bodies aren't found until hours later. He checks into this other area, this hotel, right?

there is a belief that they could have been killed maybe right after the party. I mean, assuming allegedly if you did this, maybe in the early Sunday morning hours, but there seems to be, based on the reporting, evidence that they were there for quite some time. How accurate can law enforcement be in terms of determining a time of death? So that's where medical examiners come in because rigumortes takes 12 hours to set. It lasts for 12 hours and then it starts to dissipate. So you've got about a 24, 36 hour window. So depending on when they came there to do their investigation,

They're going to be able to backtrack it to say, within this time frame, this is probably when they died. Now, they could have been incapacitated and taken 30, 40 minutes to bleed out and suffer, because what they're suffering from is hypovalemic shock. That's what happens. You're bleeding out the volume. And so that medical examiner's report with, again, surveillance and camera footage and, you know, cell phones, how long he was in the house, how long he was not in the house, they're going to be able to track it to a certain pretty close timeline. The excellent work from law enforcement here. It was a relatively quick arrest. I mean, it was only hours after the law enforcement came on the scene.

They arrest him. And it was really interesting because this video came out where you allegedly see Nick Reiner at a gas station. This is right before police swoop in. They arrest him. I know you saw the video of both. What were your takeaways from that? Well, I think the quick turnaround was because they probably knew they had footage and they reviewed the footage. Clearly, if you respond to a scene where you have two,

deceased victims of a potential homicide. The first thing you're to do is let's get the cameras, let's download and let's find out where the suspect is. We do that for active shooters. You know, in Michigan State University, when the active shooter was several years ago, where that picture came out within a short amount of time he was arrested within miles, because you get that photo out. For law enforcement, that's what we want to do. And for that neighborhood, I guarantee there's footage everywhere. So they probably had a really good idea. It was he. Then when they tracked him, they probably had his phone because of the sister. They pinged his cell phone. They knew exactly where he was.

You could tell by when he was walking in the store, very melancholy. Yeah, what was his demeanor? Yeah, just killed your parents. Well, allegedly. Yeah, I mean, yeah, allegedly, but that's the mindset. And then you're walking out, and then as soon as the first contact was made with law enforcement, what did you do? Put his hands up, laid right down, total compliant. He knew at that point that it was over.

Unbelievable. No resistance. There's so much we don't know. We're going to continue to stay on it. My colleague, Chris Stewart as well, is on it as well. We want to try to get all the details about what happened here. A full understanding. We'll follow this as it continues into the legal process.

Sheriff, before I let you go, you gave me this incredible gift. Now, this was made by survivors of human trafficking. Explain a little bit more about this because I think it's a really important work that you do and to wear this because we cover a lot of different cases, unfortunately, of human trafficking and sexual abuse. This is an honor to be able to wear this. Explain a little bit more about the work that they do. Well, is the gift of appreciation from survivors whose names and faces you'll never know for the work you and the Abrams media team does. You know, I was introduced to you because of my time with Chris Hansen and the work we've done.

I've been in the human trafficking enforcement game for eight years now, started international now, Ghost, which is changed to global human oppression strike team out of Flint, Michigan. You know, we do a lot of work for a lot of people and we arrest predators and pedophiles, but we also help victims become survivors. And so about two years ago, I was contacted by a sister duo, Shannon and Amanda Sloan. And they formed a company called Ringtru. And I'm always cautious about people coming to try to monetize on ghost or try to, you know, take the edge. So she just said, we just simply have a company that we have launched in survivor homes for them to do something with their hands and create a business. And it's a jewelry business. And I went and I did

tour and I'm watching these survivors take so much pride in putting together just a simple bracelet or a necklace. And, you know, they rolled into a great relationship and then they made a ghost bracelet. What's interesting about it, though, is each bracelet made by the hands of survivors who at one point those hands were part of the actual crime that they were a victim of. Now get to make a piece of jewelry that you get to wear. And they signed a card on the back, so you know exactly who made that. In fact, yep, you have it right there. Right there. Right on the back of that card you can read yep you can see it right there that's me turn it over yeah one so I sign it as a congratulations to freedom go say

they're zooming in right there that's Chris and then right back there it's handmade by Karen yeah see that it's amazing signed by her signed by her it's great and so I just wanted to tell you thank you to you and Alyssa for just always telling the story because it's gonna take all of us to disrupt the human trafficking algorithm yep well you do great work We do great work. You do great work. We just try to cover it as best as we can. Thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure. Happy holidays to you and your family. Congratulations in your success. Thank you. And that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so much

for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcasts. You can follow me on X or Instagram. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.