Law&Crime Sidebar - Ex-Abercrombie CEO Accused of Rape, Prostitution: BBC Reporter Tells All

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

Journalists with the BBC have been looking into allegations against former Abercrombie & Fitch CEO Mike Jeffries, as well as his Bristish partner Matt Smith, after allegations were made that the men used the brand’s power to rape male model candidates. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber sat down with BBC journalist Rianna Croxford to find out what was happening behind the scenes during the investigation.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can submit a claim in 8 clicks or less without having to leave your couch. To start your claim, visit: https://www.forthepeople.com/LCSidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger and Christina FalconeScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. We have a special one for you right now. I sit down with the reporter whose work may have ultimately led to the arrest and indictment of the former CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch and his alleged cohorts, all now accused of federal sex crimes. BBC Investigations correspondent Rihanna Croxford joins us. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

It was a shocker. The arrest and indictment of the former CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch. And not for something like insider trading or some white collar crime. No, no, no. Sex trafficking? 80-year-old Mike Jeffries, along with Matthew Smith and James Jacobson, were charged by federal prosecutors in New York with sex trafficking, by the way, carries 15 years to life in prison, an interstate prostitution, which carries up to 20 years in prison. It is alleged that between 2008 and 2015, this trio, used force, fraud, and coercion to traffic men while operating a prostitution business, namely transporting men for the purposes of commercial sex. And I'll give you kind of examples of what we're talking about here.

So prosecutors allege that young men were led to believe that they had to engage in sex acts in order to get modeling gigs with Abercrombie or further their career opportunities. And remember, when we're talking about Abercrombie, which at this point in time, this was a dominant fashion powerhouse. So when you think about dangling those opportunities to get people to do what you wanted, just that's the allegations here. It was alleged also that if the men didn't participate, that they would be threatened or they were sexually assaulted and that security was stationed at these sex events to control who was coming in, who was coming out of a room. So essentially a systematic sexual exploitation and violence committed upon numerous men. Now, these charges come after an explosive investigation conducted by the BBC. More specifically, there was a documentary entitled The Abercrombie Guys, the Dark Side of Cool, and a podcast called Abercrombie Guys, and it was hosted by our next guest, special guest,

Rihanna Croxford, an investigations correspondent with the BBC who broke this story. It was her reporting that exposed all of these allegations, and she joins us right now. Rihanna, thank you so much for coming on. Such a pleasure. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really actually want to start, before even go back to how this investigation started,

you published a piece recently, and I was fascinated because you were in New York for Mike Jeffries Arraiman. After years of investigating this, I know you're probably filled with a lot of emotions right now, but being in that courtroom, seeing him, what was your take? It was really surreal.

really surreal. This was a man I've been investigating for three years now and I think as an investigative journalist sometimes you can spend so much time with your head in the weeds of things. I spent so much time gathering evidence that I don't think I really took a step back to think just about the sheer amount that I'd uncovered and seeing him for the first time. I mean I walked into the courthouse and I mean I was so tired I went to get a coffee from the the canteen and there he was with his legal team and he looked at me and he just raised his shin, pursed his lips and I felt almost in that moment a little bit intimidated myself coming sort of face to face with him for the first time but seeing what all of this

has amounted to and thinking about all of the brave men who have trusted me with their stories over the years it's really been a remarkable week you think he's familiar with you and your work I would think so. We have contacted him, his partner, and their legal team multiple times over the past few years. I mean, ahead of our documentary and podcast series, just last year, we contacted him 20 times over six weeks, and he chose to not respond to the allegations. So I think he probably is aware of what we've done. Hey there, everybody. So I want to thank Morgan and Morgan for sponsoring this episode of Sidebar. Always love talking about them. Now, here is the incredible thing about Morgan and Morgan. And one of the reasons why I like talking about them so much.

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You know what's interesting too, there's not a lot of pictures of either the three of them. So it was kind of jarring a little bit just to see him because he hasn't been in the spotlight for quite some time. We did a whole other sidebar episode about the controversy surrounding the company. But to see him, I mean, that also must have been kind of jarring as well for you. Absolutely. I mean, this was a man who at the height of Abercrombia's success was known for having lots of plastic surgery, who was known for walking around in Abercrombie polos and flip-flops and sort of seeing him 10 years on since he left the company in 2014. I mean, he's now 80. His hair is no longer highlighted. It's now white. He no longer has Botox. His fillers are now dissolved. He really looked like a shadow

of the man that over the past few years, I've heard, really used his power and strength to abuse vulnerable young men. And that part I want to focus on, because before we came on, we were talking about, you know, I've been covering so much of the Sean Combs case and other related cases, and when it comes to Sean Combs, a lot of it is regarding the abuse of women, but you're also seeing allegations against minors and men. And when it comes to the abuse of men, that is something that maybe is not vocalized as much as it needs to be.

And the way that you uncovered this, the way that you got involved in this Abercrombie investigation, It was just an Instagram comment from 2021, right? Yeah, I mean, it was during the COVID pandemic. I was hold up at home researching an entirely separate story related to the fashion industry. And I stumbled across this cryptic Instagram comment. It was a group of male models talking about how they felt abuse against men in the industry was being ignored. And I reached out to a former model called Barrett Paul who'd left a comment. and we soon got on the phone and maybe it was the surreal times we were living through

that we ended up talking for about an hour and then there was this kind of long pause on the call and he said, I think I can trust you with a secret that I've never really told anyone before. And that's how we first, that's the first time I heard about, you know, allegations involving Mike Jeffries and, you know, supposedly these kind of young Abercrombie models who were like henchmen facilitating these events, but also this middleman who, At the time, I just knew as Jim who had a missing nose with a snake skin patch. I mean, I think my jaw... That was some plastic surgery or something?

I can't really get into, you know, how he lost his nose to respect his privacy. But I think most people sort of listening to that at that time, you sort of think, what is this? What's going on? You know, it sounded quite surreal and, you know, at first listen, quite fantastical. But Barrett Paul had just enough evidence for me to think that something had gone on. He had a diary entry that he sent me pictures of. And in it were the words, you know, this was the darkest experience of my life. F.U. Abercrombie and Fitch, F.U, Abercrombie, Jim.

So I felt something had happened. And, I mean, I knew all about Abercrombie and Fitch growing up. I'm a millennial, you know. That brand dominated my teenage years. So to think that there could potentially be a dark secret behind that all-American fantasy that it really sold to millions, millions around the world, I kind of felt like I had to get to the bottom of it. How did you verify and corroborate what you were hearing?

So, I mean, usually when I'm investigating, I can find loose threads online or by combing through newspaper archives or court records. And what really blew my mind was that there was absolutely nothing. about this in the public domain. So I really sort of built a case, and I say case because doing investigations, my work relies on evidence and testimonies from scratch. So initially it was through following a trail,

through word of mouth, but also I speculatively reached out to hundreds of Abercrombie models. And then a couple of months later, Barrettpool decided to go on the record and I went out to see him. And that's when he told me, that he had an old iPad from the time that he thought could have evidence on it.

And I thought, oh, great, finally. Yeah, only it didn't work. So we had to get it fixed. And when we did, I found there was evidence on it. There was an itinerary. Our corroborating the fact that Barrett Paul had gone to an event in the Hamptons, and it was sent by the middleman, James Jacobson,

and in black and white were also the first names and also phone numbers of some of the men who had been at that event. But it took me months to figure out who these people were. So from that point on, I had both these itineries giving me a paper trail to follow, but also through word of mouth. And I later recovered more than a dozen of these documents. But as I said, it took me months to figure out who they were, why they were involved,

because I didn't want to tip off the wrong person so early on when I was still gathering evidence. Was everybody, most of the people you were speaking to, were they receptive to give you information? Were they hesitant? because this is really tough to share information like this, let along with a journalist. I had one of two reactions, so on the one hand, I might knock on somebody's door or reach out to them on social media or call them up

and it's like, oh my gosh, I have been waiting for this moment for a decade for somebody to ask me what happened. And on the other hand, a lot of people were just terrified. I mean, I got accused more than one time of being a spy for Mike Jeffries. People really thought he had so much money and clout. This was a man who in one year alone had taken home more than 71 million dollars.

You really thought he had so much money that he could hire someone like me to figure out who was going around breaking non-disclosure agreements. So it took a lot of time and patience and building trust with them, but also a lot of these men are really vulnerable. And it can be hard talking about allegations of same-sex abuse. Many of them also identify as heterosexual. So There was that added element of stigma attached, but, you know, my phone's been blowing up all week from my sources, you know, dozens and dozens of sources who have been crying down the phone, overwhelmed that them using their voices has actually led to criminal charges and concrete action, something that we so rarely see with investigations. I'm really glad you brought that up because there are a number of reasons why people don't come forward. Why this was allowed, if these allegations are true, why this was allowed to happen for quite such a long time. And it's not just the fear or the shame.

It is those NDAs, which, by the way, a lot of people don't realize is that you can actually cooperate with the government. The NDA will not stop you from reporting illegal conduct. What do you believe at this point in time there are other people who are involved in this who have not, not been mentioned, who have not been charged, but we might hear about as this case progresses? So what I found in my investigation was not only these allegations of sexual exploitation, but I also found that Mike Jeffries, his British partner, Matthew Smith, were at the center of a highly organized global operation, one that not only involved the middleman, James Jacobson, but also a network of recruiters, men who would receive referral.

fees for finding other young men and bringing them into this scheme. Now, those men could sometimes receive upwards of $1,000 for Mr. Jacobson for finding new men. I've also spoken to people who helped supervise these events. Now, it's not my place. It's totally independent what I've done to what the FBI has done. But, you know, depending on what they want to do, that is a possibility. You mentioned before being sensitive to Jacobson's, some of the things that have happened in his life. My understanding is that's because you've spoken with him, right?

What was that meeting like and what you can share? I mean, I first met Jim Jacobson in August 2023. He had been on my radar for a very long time. I tracked him down by using both phone and property records. And we went to see him in Wisconsin, my producer and I. He also worked on the podcast and I remember my heart racing because I knew this was a man who had never been confronted before and you never know how someone's going to react in a situation like that and I knocked on his door. He was home and he opened it and when I put

the allegations to him he literally sat on his porch, put his head in his hands and cursed. We then had this really awkward conversation for like half an hour where it was like a carousel No comment, no comment, no comment, until he finally asked me to do a deal. Leave my name out and I'll tell you everything, he said. Anyway, as a result of that, he agreed to meet me the next day for coffee. And again, we had a two-hour conversation this time.

And at times, it was just really bizarre. You know, he's a former actor, and he broke out into a bunch of accents, a southern accent, the Queen's English. He even tried to put on a cloak, trying to convince me that he could do an anonymous interview. He kind of joked about his appearance saying, you know, the only job I could get these days would be as a James Bond villain.

So we went round and circles for two hours, him asking for a deal, me pressing for more evidence until he kind of finally said, look, I haven't spoken to Mike Jeffries or Matthew Smith since 2015. I was just doing my job. But he also seemed to show very little remorse. You know, I pushed him on some of these allegations. You know, I heard some really harrowing allegations over the last couple of years. And he just kept saying to me, don't ruin my life.

And when I said, you know, what about some of the men who say they were really harmed and affected by this? He just didn't seem to react. So, you know, ultimately we don't do deals. You know, I'm not law enforcement. I'm totally independent of that. And we had so much evidence that we had to publish. So much of this is shocking to us, but were the things that you learned during the course of your investigation? during the course of your investigation that really shocked you,

things that maybe we haven't learned yet, that haven't been articulated yet in the indictment, but what shocked you most about this? I think for me, what really played on my mind over the years was, how could an operation on this scale have stayed hidden for so long? I mean, I know the prosecutors in the past week have dated these allegations to 2008, but in the podcast, you know, I've spoken to somebody

who says that they were supervising these sex events and working with Mike Jeffries to do that from as early as 2005. So, you know, I do the maths and, you know, these were events that were taking place weekly. And as we, you know, heard in the past week, on an international scale in London, I found evidence that they were being held in Paris, in Madrid, in Italy, you know, even on an ocean liner that sails from London to New York. But what really, really made me take a step back was there was an event. that was held in Marrakesh in North Africa

and dozens and dozens and dozens of men had been flown in to entertain not only Jeffries, but also his friends. And it was just absolute chaos. And I estimated that that event alone could have cost upwards of a million dollars. Sorry, could have cost upwards of half a million dollars. So absolutely extraordinary.

And so I often sat there while I was investigating thinking, why is it that nobody had come forward before? before, like the amount of fear, the amount of shame involved. Or are they participated? Yes, but yeah, absolutely extraordinary. And I think, you know, it was quite difficult investigating. I mean, I myself, and I hadn't really spoken about this until recently, but, you know, at the height of this investigation, I was facing hundreds of hacking attempts each day.

All were unsuccessful. I also had a moment in time where one of my social media accounts was cloned and it came off the back of quite a contentious door knock you know I went to approach somebody who I knew held information and I woke up the next morning and yeah somebody was impersonating me trying to hack my followers and you know I obviously at the time didn't have any evidence you know where it was coming from you know what was happening but you do start to feel really paranoid and then just in the last week we heard the US prosecutor to say that Mike Jeffreys had in fact employed a full-service security company to not only oversee

non-disclosure agreements, but to also carry out background checks and also to try and intimidate and surveil anybody who threatened to expose this. So that's something that was even new to me in the past week. How did you feel when you heard that? Did it feel like a sense of validation about what you were feeling? It did. And I think also for a lot of the other men involved, who, I've said, many of them accused me of being a spy. They were absolutely terrified of speaking out and coming forward. You know, I like to obviously stress that all of those attempts were unsuccessful. You know, I can't do stories like this without protecting my sources.

And we've got great security teams at the BBC. But it was really overwhelming. So, yeah, it was quite surreal sort of feeling a bit like, oh gosh, maybe I did have a, maybe I was right to be cautious. I'm really sorry that happened to you. One of the things that I find really interesting is that there is the separate lawsuit that was filed against Mike Jeffries, but not only him against Abercrombie. And although Abercrombie, the company, hasn't been criminally charged with respect to anything that's happening right now, there are people, and the allegations that put forward in the lawsuit was that they knew about what was going on. And they turned a blind eye because Mike Jeffries was so valuable to the company, he was making them so much money.

during the course of your investigation, if I ask you right now, how much of a role does Abercrombie, the company, its top executives, its management, played in this? What would you say? It's really difficult because obviously Abercrombie and Fitch has denied any knowledge. You know, they told us last year that they had no idea about this until we approached them with the allegations. But at the same time, you know, Mike Jeffries was CEO and also chairman at that company for 22 years. And I think some of the questions you might want to ask are, what were the checks and balances in place? This was a man who had a gigantic pay packet.

You know, Abercrombie is a public company. It has shareholders. And even before he stepped down in 2014, there were concerns being raised about lavished spending on hotel rooms, his use of the corporate jet, his excessive use of the corporate jet, but also just the sheer amount of money he was taking home. In one year alone, $71 million. So I think there are going to be a lot of questions. And you know this probably more than me, but the civil lawsuit is probably going to go through a discovery phase if it doesn't settle.

And it might be that we finally get answers to some of those questions. Yeah, the legal process is very good at that, whether it's the criminal case or the civil case. Look, if you ask me, it seems pretty clear that the work that you've done is what led to these criminal charges. And I've seen this before, right? It was investigative journalists with Harvey Weinstein, the New York Times that ultimately led to the charges. Surviving R. Kelly, R. Kelly.

Took civil lawsuits for Sean Combs for there to be charges. It seems that the work that you did led to what happened today. Are you confident that investigators that the authorities in the United States were looking at the documentary, we're looking at your podcast and saying, we have to look into what's happening with it, Mike Jeffries and his alleged cohorts? My understanding is that they opened an investigation after hearing the podcast. I mean, that was the first time any allegations of sexual exploitation had come to light. And that podcast, the Abercrombie Guys, is now 11 episodes. And it starts in immense detail the journey that I've been on with these men

and the rabbit holes that I have gone down trying to evidence this. And it really does centre also the testimony not only of these brave men who have come forward, but also of household staff who used to work for Mike Jeffries. You know, I tracked down people who had worked in his Hamptons mansion and other homes across the States. And they definitely painted a picture of a somewhat eccentric and secretive man. You know, I heard from some of his staff that every Saturday for several years, they had to vacate the Hamptons.

And that led to many of them to suspect that wrongdoing was taking place because nobody understood why they had to leave the premises for long stretches of time literally every weekend. Yeah, to kind of answer your question, I guess it has been this, I mean, it has been this podcast and the documentary that I did, the Abercrombie guys, that has led to this. And, you know, I think I, up until this week, I hadn't really taken a moment to take a step back and just, I think I'm still processing it myself because it's been three years of my life. And yeah, it very much took over. I definitely felt that sense of duty to bring this to light for the first time, the more that I heard. So, yeah, it's been a remarkable week. Because I was going to ask you what that feels like.

You know, there's times you report on stories, you hope that it gets attention, you hope that it brings awareness. But for there to be actual criminal charges, actual result, an actual investigation, actual prosecution as a result of investigative journalism, that's got to be a very unique feeling. very interesting, special feeling. I mean, as an investigative journalist, you know, it is my role to, you know, try and expose and pursue the truth and also to hold people to account.

And, you know, when I think back to last summer, particularly when I met Jim Jacobson, I think there were moments where, you know, he tried to dissuade me from publishing. He was like, it's been 10 years. He was like, sweetheart, sweetheart, you know, he was quite patronizing. He was like, sweetheart, why are you doing a story about this?

It's been 10 years. And I think there very much is this, I mean, I very much have this feeling that, you know, if it hadn't been for the work that I did and the work that my team did, you know, these are massive production efforts, they probably would have evaded scrutiny and accountability after all this while. So, you know, obviously what the FBI has done is being totally independent of us. You know, I know there are people who have spoken to the FBI who haven't spoken with me and vice versa. But, you know, all I can say now is, you know, as a journalist, my power only goes so far.

You know, I find facts I don't make judgments. So do anyone affected or involved definitely approach the authorities? They've been encouraging people to do that. And really, it's in their hands now. Just to put a bow on this last point, since we're covering so much of the Sean Combs case, a lot of people always ask me, who's going to be named, who's the big players, who else is involved? In your investigation, does it seem like this was isolated to three men who, you know, were, as it's being alleged, they exploited and used violence and threats and coercion to get young men to engage in these acts? Or do you think it's more, you talked about it being international, but do you think that there are other potentially big names that we don't know about yet or celebrities that we don't know about yet that might be implicated in this?

I mean, I haven't found any evidence of that. You know, I have spoken to some men who have said to me that sometimes Mike Jeffries would have friends at these events. I haven't been able to identify any of them. But from what I gathered, it very much seemed, and prosecutors this week said that as well, that, you know, these were men who were very much subjected to the sexual fantasies of Mike Jeffries and his partner.

And even when I spoke to Mr. Jacobson last summer, you know, he corroborated that. idea because he said to me, all of the money for this operation had come from Mr. Jeffries and Mr. Smith, and that was for not just Mr. Jacobson's salary, but also the referral fees that recruiters were receiving. So it supported this idea that this massive sprawling infrastructure, and it's now being described. It's really set up to satisfy them. By the way, do you know how Jacobson knew Jeffries or Smith? What's that relationship? My understanding, right, is Smith and Jeffries were partners, but I don't understand what Jacobson's connection was.

I have been getting some information. Okay. Nothing I can share to date because a lot of my job revolves on double sourcing and just getting my facts right. But, you know, I have heard suggestions that Mr. Jacobson may have been running his own sort of escorting agency once upon a time. I don't know what happened to it. but at some point he came into contact with Mike Jeffries and was basically being offered this job full time and we hired prosecutors say this week

that Jim Jacobson was employed by Mr. Jeffries and was on a salary so that very much supported that idea. Wow, and then one more question before I let you go because I know you have to make a flight back. You mentioned how after the arrest and indictment people have reached out to you, they feel a sense of justice. Have there been people who you haven't spoken to you yet who then reached out to you and said, I want to tell my story now?

Because, I mean, look, all the allegations against, you know, look, Mr. Jeffries and his cohorts, they are innocent and so proven guilty. Same thing with the Sean Combs case. But what we see a lot of times is when there is a lawsuit or there is an arrest or there is an indictment that people then feel comfortable and safe to come forward. Have new people reached out to you about allegations? Absolutely. I've had people contacting me to say, this happened.

And to me, I've been harboring a lot of shame over this, but now I'm feeling vindicated and validated. So I've had quite a lot of emotional calls this week. But also when my podcast went out last year, I also had even more men coming forward then. So, as I said, people can come forward to me, of course. And I'm happy to have conversations in confidence. But also the FBI now is asking for people to come forward.

And they are the ones who really have the power to sort of do something about this now. So, Rihanna, you've done incredible work. It's such a pleasure to meet you. This is an important moment, and I hope you recognize that, again, while these are allegations, you are doing a service to a lot of people, and I think you've done incredible work,

an incredible job, especially in the face of what is a scary situation, obviously intimidation, the idea of people potentially hacking you. So I just have to say, you know, you should be very proud of yourself. I think you did incredible work with this. I'm curious to see where this goes. And it's just frightening and disturbing

to think the worst and think about this was happening for so many years. But again, we'll see where it goes. Please let our viewers and our listeners know where they can find you, get more information about the work that you do because I think it's incredible what you've been doing. Thank you.

I mean, you can reach out to me on social media, but also you can listen to our podcast, World of Secrets, Season 1, the Abercrombie guys. All 11 episodes aren't the course of this. And there's also contact details on there if you want to get in touch. Great. Of course. Well, I hope everybody checks it out.

Rihanna Croxford, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. All right, everybody. That's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time.

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