Law&Crime Sidebar - FBI Director Slammed for Charlie Kirk Murder Investigation

Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.ca. That's audible.ca. slash Wondery. You are the biggest fraud to ever sit in the United States Senate. You are disgraced to this institution and an utter coward. buffoon at best. That was FBI director Cash Patel unloading on Senator Adam Schiff in a Capitol Hill hearing that veered from the assassination of Charlie Kirk to the still unanswered questions

Starting point is 00:00:41 about Jeffrey Epstein. Patel was testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee about the two explosive issues and more, and that is when things got pretty fiery, very fast. We are going to break down Patel's testimony, the blowback, what this all means. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by law and crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Well, this was one of the most charged oversight hearings in recent memory. FBI director Cash Patel testifying under oath in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee lasted several hours, senators demanding answers to different topics, tempers flaring, Epstein, Charlie Kirk. So if you didn't see it or you want the condensed version of some of the highlights, here you go. I mean, at one point, Patel looks across the day.

Starting point is 00:01:28 that Senator Adam Schiff and, you know, didn't hold anything back. You are the biggest fraud to ever sit in the United States Senate. You're disgraced of this institution and an utter coward. You are a political buffoon at best. Yeah, we'll get there. But first, let's back up. Let's walk through why this hearing had the nation's attention, why it all boiled down to two explosive topics, right?

Starting point is 00:01:50 The assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk and the still unresolved questions of the Jeffrey Epstein files. Now, if you remember, on September 10th, just around noon, Charlie Kirk was gunned down. Within hours, FBI director Cash Patel made the investigation front and center. He had posted updates in real time on social media, something that critics say that sowed confusion, that it may have jeopardized the case. That was an allegation. Now, Patel defended his approach, calling it transparency. And when the Senate Judiciary Committee convened days later, it wasn't just about the Kirk case, definitely came up.

Starting point is 00:02:27 but senators also zeroed in on Patel's handling of the Epstein files, the firing of FBI agents, his loyalty to President Donald Trump. And we're not going to go down the political rabbit hole. That's not what sidebar is, but we will stick directly or strictly to Patel's testimony as pertains to the Kirk investigation and to Jeffrey Epstein. Now, to help you get an understanding of how charge this was, let's actually start with committee chair Dick Durbin. Since he's the top Democrat on the committee, he gave an opening.

Starting point is 00:02:57 statement and he wasted no time setting the tone. He accused Cash Patel of politicizing the FBI, of running loyalty tests, of mishandling communications with the public after Charlie Kirk's killing. President Biden retained Director Ray a lifelong Republican who was President Trump's nominee for the office. After his second election in an unprecedented move, President Trump forced out Director Ray and nominated Cash Patel, arguably the most partisan FBI director ever. Director Patel came to the FBI with a political mission, and he spelled it out in writing in detail. He wrote government gangsters, quote, the rot at the core of the FBI is not just scandalous, it's an existential threat to our Republican form of government, end quote, and with the power of his office and the blessings

Starting point is 00:03:56 of the president, he attacked the FBI with a vengeance. And Durbin then went further. He warned senators not to weaponize political violence, pointing to the killings of both Charlie Kirk and Minnesota State Representative Melissa Hortman. The latter of whom was shot and killed alongside her husband at their home earlier this year. The men and women who serve at the FBI and the American people deserve a director who has the ability and the character to restore the Bureau to its place. as the preeminent law enforcement agency.

Starting point is 00:04:29 All of us in public life on both sides of the aisle have a responsibility to bring down the temperature and to work to unite the American people. Let's be clear, Republicans are not Nazis and Democrats are not evil, as Mr. Patel has claimed. Democrats are not responsible for the murder of Charlie Kirk and Republicans were not responsible for the murder of Melissa Hartman. Our political opponents are not our enemies.

Starting point is 00:04:54 we are all Americans, and we should be working together to keep the American people safe and protect their constitutional rights. Now, you may think that by watching Sidebar, you've seen it all, right? Think again, 50 ways to catch a killer. It brings you real cases where detectives had to flip the script to take down cold-blooded killers. Hosted by 50 Cent, this isn't your typical crime show. It is a high-stakes twist-filled ride into the minds of investigators who think outside the badge to break the case.

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Starting point is 00:06:01 Later that evening, while conducting extensive interviews and cell phone analysis and also flying out evidence response teams and hostage rescue teams and evidence tacticians who were collecting evidence in live time and flying them back to Washington, D.C. in our laboratories for immediate analyses. We were able to extract video from the campus feed and at my direction at APM in partnership and promise to working with the public to bring this fugitive to justice. We released a newly never-before-seen video of the suspect. We also released new enhanced photos of the suspect. A few hours later, that suspect was in custody pursuant to the interrogation of the suspect's own father who stated When I saw that video that you released, I recognized it was my son, and I confronted him, and he was handed over to lawful law enforcement authorities. That is the FBI working with the public as I promised being transparent

Starting point is 00:07:00 and provided critical information along the way in the manhunt for the suspects involved in Charlie's misassination. We received over 11,000 tips in the first 24 hours alone. We received 16,000 submissions to our digital media enterprise and tip lines. That is a large number of material to go through. I want to thank President Trump and the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, for their unwavering support and commitment resources to this in all investigations. I also want to especially thank our colleagues in Utah, the governor's office, DPS, and the sheriffs out there. State and local law enforcement partnership has been a cornerstone since I took over at the FBI, and it was no different here. And our teams in Salt Lake City, our SACs out there across the country, our lab technicians in Quantico,

Starting point is 00:07:45 who race to complete the evidence analysis so the public could have the answers they need. These people worked through the night without sleep for days on end. They are to be commended. They are not to be attacked. And look, it was arguably one of Patel's strongest moments, right, framing the FBI's work as fast, coordinated, transparent, and let the record hold, right? Charlie Kirk suspected killer Tyler Robinson was apprehended just 33 hours after the shooting. This is a feat that even Patel's critics on the Hill had to acknowledge. and one he was congratulated for during this hearing.

Starting point is 00:08:19 But Cash Patel also faced some pointed questions about social media's role in political violence. Senator Lindsey Graham pressed him on whether platforms like Discord, which you're probably all familiar with by now, plays a role in the Kirk case, whether or not that was radicalizing Americans. After the assassination of Charlie Kirk, there seems to be one refrain from everybody. and that's about the effect of social media. Do you believe that social media is one of the instruments radicalizing America and inciting violence? Well, it's not, my belief is based on the data,

Starting point is 00:08:59 and the data shows that social media is wildly out of control when it comes to radicalizing. You're dead right. So what did you just say? This guy's the FBI director. He says that social media is wildly out of control. Now, free speech, we all are. agree with that but you can't yell fire in the theater right yes sir free speech doesn't allow you to go

Starting point is 00:09:18 online and groom a child per sexual no it does not okay free speech doesn't allow you to go on the internet and basically incite somebody to kill another person right absolutely not so if it's illegal offline it should be illegal online agreed whatever the law is yes sir just because your own line doesn't give you a get out of jail free card no sir and when the discussion turn to Discord. This is the chat platform where the Kirk suspect, Tyler Robinson, allegedly hinted at what he had done or allegedly confessed, you had Senator Josh Hawley asked Patel if others were involved in that chat. And it turns out, according to Patel, there were many other people involved in that chat. Reports have suggested that the FBI is investigating a broader network

Starting point is 00:10:06 of groups that may have had some knowledge of the shooter's plans. Can you give us any details on that, following up what you've already said in public, how's the FBI working to find other potential accomplices, folks who may have known about the shooter's plans, folks who may have encouraged him, any update on any of that? So in terms of what we do for an interrogation perspective, we go and reach out to the family and community immediately, and we've conducted those investigations and interrogations

Starting point is 00:10:34 with local law enforcement, and we're continuing to do that because those closest to the suspect are going to hopefully know the most about the suspect. his beliefs and his ideology. On top of that, unfortunately, it has been leaked that there was a Discord chat, and for those unfamiliar with it, it's a gaming chat room online that the suspect participated in. So what we're doing, we've already done is sort of legal process, not just on discord, so that the information we gathered is sustained and held in a evidentiary posture that we could use in prosecution, should it be decided to do so. And we're also going to be investigating anyone and everyone involved in that Discord chat.

Starting point is 00:11:17 Okay, very good. I see the public reports that the Discord thread had as many as 20 additional users. It sounds like you're trying to run down all of that to see if that's accurate, who else may have been on that thread, what they may have known. Is that fair to say? It's a lot more than that. We're running them all down. It's a lot more than 20? Yes, sir. And you're running all of that too. Every single one. Yeah, fantastic. And let me just talk real quick about Discord because the Washington Post first reported that Robinson may have messaged friends on this platform after the shooting before he was arrested,

Starting point is 00:11:48 allegedly confessing to the crime, right? So allegedly writing at 7.57 p.m. local time in Utah. Hey, guys, I have bad news for you all. It was me at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for all of this. I'm surrendering through a sheriff friend in a few moments. Thanks for all the good times and laughs. You've all been so amazing.

Starting point is 00:12:04 Thank you all for everything. By the way, in a piece by journalist Ken Clippenstein, where he apparently posted messages from that day. Discord chat. This is after that alleged post from Robinson. You had another user who allegedly wrote to the group, Hey, everyone, if you've not seen the news yet, Tyler's post above is true. He was taken into custody earlier today for the shooting of Charlie Kirk. Now, it's not entirely clear whether criminal charges will arise for anybody on this chat or there is even criminal liability. Questions about whether anybody contributed, aided, abetted, conspired. Those will hopefully

Starting point is 00:12:40 be investigated. But just making a note. to that. Now, even with the quick arrest in this case, Patel couldn't outrun one major controversy. That was that just hours into this investigation, he took to social media to announce that a subject was in custody. The problem, of course, is that person wasn't the shooter. And the announcement had to be, I don't know if the argument has walked back, but basically, there was a subject in custody, they were questioned, they were released. This led arguably to a lot of confusion. And senators, they jumped all. all over this.

Starting point is 00:13:13 Director Patel, at one point you made an announcement that the suspect was in custody. We got our man. It turned out that was not true. In fact, I think that was about 27 hours before the personnel in custody was apprehended. Why did you make that statement? Thank you, Senator. Appreciate you letting me address this. What the FBI does is not just locate and find suspects, but we also participate in eliminating

Starting point is 00:13:42 subjects. And what we had at the time was a subject in custody in relation to this investigation. So in my commitment to work with the public to help identify subjects and suspects, I put that information out. And then when we interviewed him, I put out the results of that. And could I have been more careful in my verbiage and included an A subject instead of subject? Sure, in the heat of the moment, but I was doing the best I could. In all candor, I don't quite get that because if we have our man that would suggest to the public that everybody can rest and relax and not then continue to provide information to local law enforcement and to you so that was a mistake i don't see it as a mistake i see it as something working with the public to identify that there was a subject

Starting point is 00:14:26 so if you put out if you put out a statement that says we've got our man and in fact it turns out that you didn't have your man that's not a mistake but that's not what i said Well, I'll go on. That's my understanding. Okay. Now, if the Kirk assassination dominated the first half of the hearing, the second half was consumed by an unresolved scandal. You know what I'm talking about?

Starting point is 00:14:52 It's one that continues to fascinate and enrage the public, Jeffrey Epstein, which we have covered extensively here on Sidebar. The questions for Patel weren't about how quickly the FBI could track down a gunman. They were about what the FBI knows and what it may still be holding or hiding back about Epstein's network, his so-called black book, his longtime associate, Elaine Maxwell, Senator John Kennedy opened with a question aimed right at the heart of the public's curiosity. Who else, if anyone, did Epstein traffic? I want to ask you about the Epstein files.

Starting point is 00:15:26 Have you, have you seen the Epstein files? I have not reviewed the entirety of it myself, but a good amount. Would it be fair to say that Mr. Epstein trafficked young women, including, in some instances, minors, for sex to himself? That was specifically the allegations in the 2018 indictment in the Southern District of New York. Who else did he traffic these young women? women too. You've seen most of the files. Who, if anyone, did Epstein traffic these young women too besides himself? Himself, there is no credible information. None. If there were, I would bring the case yesterday that he trafficked to other individuals. And the information we have,

Starting point is 00:16:27 again, is limited. So the answer is no one? For the information that we have. In the files? In the case file. And one thing just to add to that, so Galane Maxwell, she was convicted, let's not forget, of trafficking victims to Epstein and Epstein alone. But Kennedy pushed Patel about transparency, about whether the Bureau would release everything it has or whether court orders and legal limits would keep pieces of this record hidden from the public. And I understand that the department and the agency have decided to release them in cooperation with the House committee. Is that correct? Yes, sir. So you're releasing them a little bit at a time. Is that correct? We're releasing as much as we can, but we are limited by three different court

Starting point is 00:17:20 orders and the department went back to each of those judges to waive those court orders or have them lifted and each of those judges declined. Will you release all of them or at least as many as you can? We will release everything we are legally permitted to do so. We are continuing to work with the House on the subpoena request. We have substantially required with it, complied with it, but we will continue to release whatever we are legally permitted to do so. Okay. I strongly encourage you to do that, cash. I don't, this issue is not going to go away. And I think the essential question for the American people is this. They know that Epstein trafficked young women for sex to himself. They want to know who, if anyone else, he trafficked these young women

Starting point is 00:18:13 too. And that's a very fair question. I want to know that answer. And I think you're going to have to do more to satisfy the American people. understandable curiosity in that regard. Now, Patel answered by walking the committee through why the files themselves are limited, search warrants from the 2000s, the non-prosecution agreement that followed, the reality that multiple administrations had opportunities to find leads that may have been prosecuted. What exists in the Epstein case files was a direct result of the limited search warrants from 2006

Starting point is 00:18:54 and seven, hamstrung future investigations because of the non-prosecution agreement, and multiple administrations had the opportunity to look at the entirety of that case file and recommend prosecutions against anyone that was trafficked under Mr. Epstein and anyone that participated in that trafficking. And the only person to bring charges was the prior administration against Mr. Epstein. Now, I am not saying that others were not traffic and others were not involved. What I am telling you is that based on the information we have, and we have continuously and publicly asked for the public

Starting point is 00:19:30 to come forward with more information, if there is, we'll look at it. But based on credible information, we have released all credible information, and the information that the Department of Justice and the FBI never releases, is information on investigations that are not credible. And we don't release the names of victims who weren't credible, but in the same time, we don't release the names of victims who were credible. And so the information, that's by law.

Starting point is 00:19:53 And so the information we are releasing now is historic, and it is also to the maximum capacity that the law allows. With Kennedy, having laid out the legal frame, the what we have and what we can release, the committee moved to the more combustible questions. Senator Adam Schiff took the mic, and he went after the so-called black book and whether the FBI had in fact been holding evidence that could implicate others. In 2024, you were asked by Glenn Beck about Epstein's Black Book. And you said, he asked, who has Jeffrey Epstein's Blackbook? And you said, blackbook FBI.

Starting point is 00:20:37 And he said, but who? That is, I mean theirs. And you said, oh, that's under the direct control of the director of the FBI. That's what you said. Was that true, Mr. Patel? I'll rely on you quoting it accurately. I did that a couple of years ago. What you represented to Mr. Beck and the president's supporters out there, or were you lying?

Starting point is 00:20:57 Was it true that the Black Book, Epstein's Black Book, was in the possession of the FBI director? The Black Book was in the possession of the FBI. Okay, so now that you're the FBI director, you have possession of the Black Book, right? That index has been released. So you have Jeffrey Epstein's Black Book? What is known as Jeffrey Epstein's black book has been released by us. So is it your testimony today that in all the Epstein files that Jeffrey Epstein trafficked no one to anyone but himself? Is that your testimony?

Starting point is 00:21:32 I never said Jeffrey Epstein didn't traffic anyone else. Did he traffic any young woman to someone other than himself? That was Mr. Kennedy's question. And I said the information that three administrations have had access to have made determinations that there are no investigative leads that were credible to prosecute and investigate any others. I'm specifically stating we were working on. You just read it and I said it 10 minutes ago, so let the record reflect my testimony. I just want to make sure there's no misunderstanding because there are victims like Virginia Gwifer who have testified otherwise, who have said otherwise. And you're telling the American people today that the Epstein list is a single name and it's Jeffrey Epstein.

Starting point is 00:22:19 That's what we're to believe? That's not what I'm saying. That's what you're saying. And you can say whatever you want. And then the hearing pivoted to Galane Maxwell, central to the Epstein case. She was interviewed a little while ago by Deputy A.G. Todd Blanche. Remember when she said, if you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters of which it's extraordinary and some are in your cabinet who you value as your coworkers and you know would. be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants sexual favors,

Starting point is 00:22:48 he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that. So she basically said the president, President Donald Trump was not involved in anything. She threw water on the idea that there's a black book or an Epstein list. But listen to this back and forth. When Todd Blanche went to interview Jussain Maxwell, she said, but did I like think these guys, were coming for that. I really don't. If you met Epstein, there's no way that this cast of characters of which it's extraordinary,

Starting point is 00:23:18 and some are in your cabinet, who you value as your co-workers and you know would be with him if he was a creeper because they wanted sexual favors. So let me ask you, who are those cabinet members that Jazeem Maxwell? Jelaine Maxwell was referring to that were part of this cast of characters. associated with Mr. Epstein. Who are they?

Starting point is 00:23:44 The Deputy Attorney General took the aggressive step that no one else did and interviewed Ms. Maxwell for two days, and we released the entirety of that transcript. Who are the cabinet members? I do not have that transcript in front of me. You're picking it piecemeal. Let me ask you one last question. And that is, right after she gives this testimony, front of an FBI agent among others, she's transferred to a minimum security prison, not

Starting point is 00:24:12 suitable for a sex offender like herself. Who made that decision and why? The Bureau of Prisons. The Bureau of Prisons decided on their own, without any consultation with Blanche or anyone else, that they were going to suddenly, after this interview, completely unrelated to this interview, completely unrelated to anything she said,

Starting point is 00:24:35 move her to a prison not suitable for a sex offender. You want the American people to believe that? Do you think they're stupid? No, I think the American people believe the truth, that I'm not in the weeds on the everyday movements of inmates. What I am doing is protecting this country, providing historic reform and combating the weaponization of intelligence by the likes of you, and we have countlessly proven you

Starting point is 00:25:01 to be a liar in Russia,gate, in January 6th, you are the biggest fraud to ever sit in the United States Senate, you're disgraced to this institution, and an utter coward. You are a political buffoon at best. Yeah, that final eruption turned the hearings legal arguments into just absolute raw theater. And for listeners, viewers, it made the central truth of the day unmistakable. That legal limits, court orders, they have seemingly constrained what the FBI can or will release.

Starting point is 00:25:31 But those constraints and the answers that they produce, I think it could be argued. It can be said they may not be satisfying to. survivors to many members of Congress or to the public. So all we have for you right now here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcasts. You can follow me on X or Instagram.

Starting point is 00:25:56 I'm Jesse Weber. I'll see you next time. episodes of this long crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

Law&Crime Sidebar - FBI Director Slammed for Charlie Kirk Murder Investigation

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