Law&Crime Sidebar - Gilgo Beach Murders: New Charges Among ‘A Lot of Things’ Coming in Long Island Serial Killer Case

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

After over a decade of no leads, authorities arrested Rex Heuermann in connection to the unsolved murders of Gilgo Beach, where the remains of 11 bodies were found. Investigators wasted no time in executing search warrants on the 59-year-old Manhattan architect’s home and other properties after he was charged with the murders of three women. Experts close to the case say new charges are imminent and “a lot of things” are going to come out in the next few weeks related to the killings. The Law&Crime Network’s Angenette Levy discusses what’s next in the Long Island serial killings case with retired NYPD Sgt. Joseph Giacalone and Josh Zeman, a director of “The Killing Season,” a show that investigated the Gilgo Beach murders.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Click this link to make some cash for giving your opinion! www.inflcr.co/SHIMy Thanks YouGov for sponsoring!LAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergWriting & Video Editing - Michael DeiningerGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa Bein & Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieThey Walk Among AmericaDevil In The DormThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. We are able to identify Fire Island Jane Doe as Karen Vergata, who was 34 years old. After one victim is identified in the Long Island serial killer case, An identification could be coming for other victims found along Gilgo Beach. We take a look at what could be coming next in the Long Island serial killer case with a retired homicide detective and a filmmaker who investigated the case. All right, before we kick off our latest episode of Sidebar,

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Welcome to Law and Crime's Sidebar podcast. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy. We may soon learn the identities of three victims whose remains were found along Gilgo Beach on Long Island. Those remains belong to an Asian male, a woman, and her toddler child. The question that remains, do members of the Gilgo Beach Homicide Investigation Task Force believe the deaths of those three people are related to the Gilgo Four and Karen Vergata, who vanished in 1996?

Just a quick recap to bring you up to speed if you haven't been following the case. Rex Heurman has pleaded not guilty to the murders of Melissa Bartholomey, Amber Costello, and Megan Waterman. Suffolk County officials say he is the prime suspect in the murder of Maureen-Brander Barnes. Dorman insists he didn't kill the women, while officials say his DNA and cell phone evidence connects him to the crimes. Now, there are so many questions that still need to be answered in this case. For instance, why on earth did it take so long to make an arrest? The technology the DA is relying on as evidence in this case has been around for years. That includes cell phone technology, evidence and genetic genealogy.

Also, could charges come soon in the murder of Marine Brainerd Barnes? Joining me to discuss what could be coming next in the Gilgo Beach serial killing case are two people who know it very well. Joe Jackaloon is a frequent guest here on Law and Crime and he's a retired New York Police Department sergeant and Josh Zeman was the director and producer of the killing season, a very successful docu-series on A&E about the Gilgo Beach killings. Joe and Josh, thanks for coming on. We really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. Josh, let's start with you. I saw some stuff with you and Joe over the weekend. You had stated you think that they have indeed identified peaches and the toddler. So bring us up to speed on what you know about that. Sure. They've been doing a lot of forensic work, DNA for quite some time now, ever since the task force was put together.

And obviously, one of the first things you're going to look for is you're going to try to identify the unidentified who were dumped tragically along Ocean Parkway. That's going to give you numerous clues as to whether Rex is responsible for them. So we've always known that identifying these people was so important to this case. It was just released that they found Karen, that they have identified Karen Bergata. And now we believe Peaches is going to come. We believe also that they've known this information for quite some time, but they wanted to, A, not scare away Rex Heerman, basically by releasing this information, and then just kind of get

that indictment out of the way. Do you think that Peaches is connected and the toddler to Rex Horman? Because, you know, we've got the Gilgo Four who were found in camouflage, burlap, in smaller area. But then we have all these other bodies and remains along the, longer stretch of Gilgo Beach? I mean, that's the big question, and that's one of the biggest mysteries of this case and kind of why it's so fascinating. The Gilgo Beach Four, very much the same MO.

Four women found all wrapped in camouflage, burlap, all found intact. Again, tragically, all taken around a certain time period, and then we have all these other victims, but dismembered, and they're found kind of like scattered all up and down the highway around these women. The question is whether or not the M.O. indicates that we're dealing with one serial killer or two. I've gone back and forth over the years. Now, with some information that's come out, I do believe we're probably talking about one individual. And the reason we have two different MOs is because of time. You know, we are talking over the course of 26 years. People evolve. They get lazy. They get comfortable. Joe, let's go back to Peaches just briefly. They had been pursuing leads on Peaches since last year. I mean, these things take time.

Even if you get the genetic genealogy going, you get some company like Othram Labs on board, it takes time to perform that work. So talk to me a little bit about what Mobile Police were looking into in Alabama. They were trying to locate certain people. Right. So it was actually kind of interesting because for those of us that follow it, you pick up on these things pretty quickly. The FBI had actually sent out a tweet asking for information in regards to connection to a Long Island case.

They didn't mention the actual Long Island case, but we knew that Peaches was definitely the case that they were referring to. So that was kind of an interesting tell going back a few months ago. And we know that, you know, law enforcement keeps things close to the vest, right? So we know they had a suspect in mind for the other case, like Josh said. You don't want to spook them. And there's another situation when you're looking at the way they picked them up and when they picked them up. And when they picked them up, they kind of rushed that whole thing at the end to arrest them because maybe they knew something else was going to happen. Or they had some other information that maybe there was some other evidence that could have been destroyed or what have you.

We'll find that all out in due time. But it's just interesting for us observers and for those of us that worked in this industry, we kind of look at some of these things as tells. And you just wonder what's next. And I think there's going to be a lot of things coming out in the next few weeks. Interesting. What do you think is coming out in the next few weeks, Joe? because you're a veteran in this business of solving crimes. So read the tea leaves for us.

Tell us what you think is coming. Well, I think we're going to have the identity of either all of the victims or at least, you know, we're going to have peaches that's going to come out, I think, within a few weeks. And I think we're going to have Gilgo Four wrapped up in respect to Maureen-Barned Barnes that charge being levied against Rex Sherman. I think that is waiting for the DNA to come back from that. So we wait for the press conference release.

I think I was kind of thought when I saw the press conference release, least I thought that's what this was going to be about and not about Karen Brigada because that was kind of a surprise for me. Or disappointment, however you want to look at it. But I think there will be another press release shortly naming Maureen-Brandt-Barns as a victim of Rex German. And then we also, we seem to forget about the Asian male in this case too. And I think that they've been working diligently on that one too. And like what Josh has said before, from a law enforcement perspective, you want to try to identify who your victims are because it plays an important role in your investigation. It gives you a starting point. It gives you that

what we refer to as victimology, building what you were doing at the time, who you're with, your friends, your families, because they might have some clues into what happened to you that day. It's very important that we do so. I'm intrigued by the Asian male because it's only the only man that we know of found, the remains found along Gilgo Beach. I have my own kind of theories about that, but I'm wondering if they do, indeed believe the Asian male is also connected to Rex Heurman if he's found to be responsible for all of these and he's innocent until proven guilty. What's your theory on the Asian male, Josh? I know what I'm kind of kicking around in my head, but I'm wondering as somebody who's

been following this for years, what you think. I mean, the Asian male is really intriguing because it doesn't fit within the victimology, right? First of all, we're talking about a transgender individual, a petite Asian male, wearing women's clothing. So all the other victims were found nude. This is the only victim who's found wearing clothing. And also, this was the only victim who we can tell was savagely beaten. So what does that mean? And probably, and this is, you know, speculation, of course, that there was some rage against this individual by the killer. Maybe he was tricked. And that led to this rage. That led to a different style of MO. I am intrigued because why would, if he's tricked and he felt like this didn't belong in his other, if you want to

call it, trophy garden, why he would deposit this victim there, but still he did. You know, Asian mail has been something that we've gone down the rabbit hole looking for. And I'm really intrigued just to what we're going to find about that. And that was my kind of my theory on the Asian male. What if the Asian male, if transgender is posing as a female escort or what have you? I'm trying to choose my words carefully here and use the proper verbiage. But, you know, Joe, that's what I think. Like, this person responds to a call for a date and the John is not getting what the John thought he was ordering.

So then there is something really bad that goes down. Well, absolutely. And this kind of behavior has happened before in other cases, non-serial related. So, I mean, you know, I worked in the Detective Squad in Queens where we had a number of transgender people who were working in the sex trade. And this kind of behavior has happened once the person gets the in the car. And then, you know, unfortunately, they find out that this is not what they bargained for. So this is something that, and happens in the rage and the fighting and the beating, I mean, and we've had murders happen that way, too. So I wouldn't be a bit surprised at that.

But, and like, I think Josh would agree with me, too, his internet searches were kind of interesting, though, too, where he was looking for the Asian male twink. I think it was the exact search for, and which is what we have here with the Asian male dressed in women's clothing found in Gilgo Beach. But Joe, what doesn't make sense to me is that if this was a... a predilection, a sexual predilection, why would he then be surprised when the Asian male got in the car and then why would that lead to the beating and the individual found fully close? So was he surprised by this exchange? Was he surprised by this sex worker? Or was this

something he had been thinking about because we know he had an internet search that said Asian twink, which indicates transgender? gender. Definitely part of the reason that he gets involved in this, right? Maybe he was doing the research after the fact we don't know exactly when those searches were happening. But here's another take on that. Yes, you know, if he was, if he knew what he was doing, it wouldn't have been a big surprise. But maybe, and this is probably for a psychologist, after doing whatever he was doing, he felt the anger raged in himself that this is what he has become. and that could have maybe created that anger and that outpouring of violence against this individual.

We don't know for sure and we won't know unless we identify who the killer is and he is willing to talk. I'm kind of wondering too, what if there's just a distaste or a hatred for people in the LGBTQ space, people who identify that way? Maybe there's some type of animus with that. Right. I don't know. It's just a thought. No, no, no, no. And it's very valid.

I think that's also one of the reasons why we really want to know the dates of those internet searches. If we knew the date of when the Asian twink happened, we would have a better idea of whether this was pre or post this search. And there's also another interesting fact. And I don't think many people have touched on it, but it's something Joe and I have discussed many times. There is a lot of dismembered transgender individuals involved in the sex trade that have been found around, not necessarily Gilgo Beach, but more into New York City, Queens, et cetera.

There is a number of them. So either this happens a lot or there may be another victim out there that we don't know about who might be attributed to what the individual that we're calling the Manor Bill Butcher. Exactly. And you always look for those companion cases. So when I was in Colcay, specifically up in the Bronx, we have. had a lot of cases where we had sex workers who were murdered in the Bronx, but they were then attributed to a man up in Yonkers who would come down into the Bronx and imply his trade. And he was, you know, leaving them in specific locations and eventually DNA then tied him to all those. So we know that they're working closely with New York City in a lot of different aspects in regards

to this case, specifically now that they have a suspect who worked in Manhattan close to Penn Station where a couple of these women came into New York City from. So, listen, and I think maybe down the road, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we see the Fed step in at a certain point if this case gets larger, because there is a federal nexus to this, right? The transporting of women for committing a crime coming from Pennsylvania, coming from New Jersey, Maine, all these different locations. You just never know. I do want to talk really briefly about Shannon Gilbert, her case. you know, I've listened to the 911 calls. I've seen information about her case. I've talked to John Ray a little bit about it. Josh, what are your feelings on Shannon Gilbert's case? I mean,

obviously she's taking off, running away from the home of the John and she's knocking on doors and then she disappears into the night after knocking on the female neighbor's door. What is your feeling on that. Do you believe or hold the same opinion that Suffolk County police say that they believe this was a tragic accident and not necessarily a not a homicide? It's that's a great question. And if it's not a homicide, it's one of the greatest coincidences in all of true crime. And I think if you spoke to Joe as an investigator, he would say, there's no such thing as coincidence in, in crime. But the case in itself, the fact that there was a driver. The fact that Brewer, the client, you know, there was a lot of he was known.

They were both interviewed. It's really hard to say. One of the reasons that makes it so hard to say is that the police force at that time was so ineffective. So I want the police to reinvestigate and I want this new DA to tell me that it's not connected. Once I have that, then I'll be 100% sure, but at least the setup, a driver bringing somebody, the driver is there, Shannon has a history, and this is not to blame the victim at all. She has somewhat of a history of mental health issues. There were drugs that night. I don't really know. I mean, I've done the investigation and I don't think at least it's connected to Rex Heurman nor the Manorville Butcher. But you don't have any faith in the prior investigation where they said, we interviewed

Pack, we interviewed Brewer, and we determined, you know, they were in the clear or what have you, that they didn't do anything, you know, untoward. Because, you know, Pack said she took off, he went looking for something about her being reluctant to give him his cut, all of this stuff. I mean, look, Pac went back the next day, you know, with Alex, the boyfriend. So, again, there's a lot to suggest that it's far different from any of the other victims. Again, was she murdered? I'm not sure. Maybe somebody gave her a sedative. She was hysterical. One thing that always sticks in my mind, like, if she was being chased, why wouldn't she stay at Gus Coletti's house? This is the first house that she knocked on. An elderly man got up. Right. You know, he

let her inside. Yeah, you know, invites her inside. She doesn't go inside, but she runs and knocks on a different door. Like, she's hysterical. And again, we're not blaming the victim here, but it just doesn't makes sense. So I, before I render judgment personally, I want to know that a competent police force has done the investigation. Joe, any thoughts on that? Well, yeah, speaking of the police investigation, right? So there's video surveillance when you try to get into the Oak Beach residence that was not secured. So we have a number of missteps. Plus, you know, me personally, I'd like to know who the first officer on the scene was. What did he or she do? I mean, we don't know who that the name of that individual because that's an important aspect of now trying to piece

together what transpired so many years ago and we know that the Suffolk County Police Department had lots of problems as putting it lightly right between Burke and then you have to look at the district attorney's office with Spoda I mean we have a tremendous amount of hills to climb to get over to try to even get as far as we have which puts into perspective how well this task forces work together in regard to putting together what they already have. So that's kind of amazing with the obstacles that they faced. And that really opens up another question or leads to another question.

We've had genetic genealogy for several years now. Offram, other companies like that have been doing this work for some time. The ball was obviously dropped somewhere along the way, Josh. I mean, these are things that could have been done a while ago, but it sounds like you had some infighting among agencies. It just seems like the focus truly wasn't on getting the arrest or figuring this out. What are your thoughts on this? I would call it far more than infighting.

Kim Sini, who was the previous DA, publicly announced he went on the record saying that there was active obfuscitation in terms of this investigation. So I think we're dealing with something more. I think that there is a reason why that they did not want to investigate this case. Yes, it goes back to Burke, who was the former police chief. And there's a lot of questions. There's a lot of rumors going around, whether he was involved in sex trade and having relationships with sex workers. I don't think he was the killer, as some people have speculated wild rumors.

but I think that his relationship in the world of sex work and his, you know, his dealings prevented him from wanting this case to be looked at, prevented him from wanting this case to be solved. So the prior DA said people were obstructing this case. People in law enforcement were obstructing the investigation. That's correct. That's correct. Now, we know that Burke and Spoda were charged with obstructing.

justice in a different case. This is the case of a young man who went in and broke into the police chief's car unknowingly stole a bag and in the bag was, I forget some of the details, like whether it was a badge or a gun, but we know that there were some sex toys in there and a videotape. And again, wild speculation that it's snuff. This is probably not snuff films, but, you know, it's probably porn. And so we know that the police chief went in and beat the guy up to try and get information. So we know that they were arrested, both the police chief and the DA, and charged with obstructing justice in that case. So is it a far reach to suggest that they obstructed justice in this case?

That's really, really, really terrible. And a lot of people wondered for a long time if somebody in law enforcement was involved, that was kind of a working hypothesis in this. So it'll be interesting to see if there maybe one or two of these sets of remains are related to somebody else. I mean, obviously, we just don't know. We have to wait and see. Yes, we have to be patient, right? So for years, many of us have been screaming that there hasn't anything going on with this case. There's no information coming out. And now all of a sudden, we're having good news after good news. And now people are being very impatient about, well, what about this? What about that? These things take a lot of time, and I believe they have many of the answers already.

They have to be really careful about, you know, what they're doing in regards to some of this new technology. Remember, New York State is a Frye State, which is in regards to getting some of this new technology into a courtroom is more difficult than other states. So they have a lot of obstacles, plus the use of DNA, we've already seen that. They now have to get warrants and everything else because New York State has a lot of different rules in regards to this. So some states can take the DNA upon arrest. New York State has said, no, yeah, we could do that, but we're not going to do that. So there are a lot of things happening. And what we don't know is if any of those older cases, specifically the Peaches case, I'm hoping,

because she was stuffed in that cooler or that container, that there were some DNA evidence left behind there. Because, you know, you have a nice, compact location. The chances of having something are very good. Remember, we didn't even know that DNA existed with the women in the Gilgo. before. So they kept that pretty close to the best, and that's what we're counting on. The cooler could certainly, you know, create an environment in which that would live, but also it makes me think, too, gosh, that would get really hot in the summer. So, you know, maybe if it's on clothing, I don't know. Well, also remember that, correct me if I'm wrong, Joe,

but Peaches did have a blanket wrapped around her. So, and numerous web sleuths have done the investigation of where that blanket may have come from. They found that that you could buy it in Rockville Center, which is a mall that's not too far away from Hempstead. So I think that there's a lot we may be able to find off the blanket, if not some kind of fingerprints or something inside the cooler. The interesting thing that people don't bring up, which I've always wondered, is the fact that Peaches has a child, a child that was found along Gilgo Beach. And you've got to ask yourself, You know, there was a lot of speculation early on, and people loved to speculate, especially serial killer cases. We all watch a far too much TV.

You know, was this the girlfriend of the killer and this illegitimate child? You know, I think we probably know that that's probably not the case. Who knows? But why is a baby there? And was basically the baby somehow brought along by the sex worker? We know that that's tragic, but we know that that happens. in some cases, but if that's the case, then I wonder, how did that quote-unquote deal, for lack of a better word? How did that deal go down? Did the sex worker drive to a presumed spot

and the baby was in the back of the vehicle? This is probably not a case of the defendant picking up the victim on the street, right? So it really calls into question for, from me, going back to Joe's points about victimology, how this specific and particular exchange happened. I think it has to be that she brought the child along. That's just, that's my theory. I'm a news person, though. I'm not a detective like Joe, but I guess that's my theory is that, unfortunately, maybe

she had to bring the child along for whatever reason. And we do know that that happens. We do. But what's interesting is that that changes someone to the. victimology of what we're going to refer to as the manager bill butcher victims because providing theory at least when joe and i are talking is that he picked up these individuals on the street you know this is pre pre backpage pre craigslist we're talking 96 you know sure some of them may have been early adopters that really became prevalent the whole back page or the whole

advertising on the internet in prevalent in the 2000s but But, you know, this was maybe one of them, which wasn't picked up on the street. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining me. Is there anything else that you would like to add that you think is important that I haven't touched upon? One thing I will tell you is that when we did our series, The Killing Season, we went into that marsh. And a lot of people speculate, you know, without having actually been there and understanding the topography of the marsh and anything. We went in there. I was fully clothed with gear and gloves, and I tried to go to the highway.

The idea is that maybe Shannon had seen the lights, and she ran towards those lights, thinking that they led to the highway, but it was through a marsh. And I tried to get through to the highway, and right at the edge of the highway, was a huge wall of brambles. It must have been six feet high and three feet thick. I could not get through. so it was amazing she's trying to get through she's you know a lot of her clothes had been shed at that time maybe hypothermia was setting in which is an interesting kind of illogical thing

that happens that people end up taking off their clothes in hypothermia um so to me i i can understand how she could not get to the highway and why her body would be found kind of 30 to 40 feet away from the highway yeah she definitely was out of it and that 911 call. Yeah. Well, Joe Jackalone and Josh Zeman, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. And that's it for this edition of Law and Crime Sidebar podcast. You can listen to and download Sidebar on Apple, Spotify, Google, and wherever else you get your podcasts. And of course, you can always watch it on Law and Crimes YouTube channel. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy, and we will see you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus.

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