Law&Crime Sidebar - Grown Woman Punched 7-Year-Old in Face in Store Parking Lot: Cops

Starting point is 00:00:00 Wonderry Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. A Tennessee woman is under arrest after police responded to reports that she punched a seven-year-old child in the face in a grocery store parking lot. We are taking a look at everything we know about this shocking case so far and how it could play out in a court of law. And we're going to do that with a victim rights lawyer. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. 29-year-old Lauren Whaley is in a lot of trouble in Knoxville, Tennessee right now.

Starting point is 00:00:37 Authorities there say she was detained on Friday, October 3rd, and this all stemmed from what allegedly happened at a Kroger grocery store on Chapman Highway in South Knoxville. WBIR reviewed an arrest warrant for Whaley, which lays out what was reported to police when they got to that parking lot at around 7 p.m. And according to the reporting, they get this report that someone in the lot was hitting, a child in the face with a closed fist. In fact, a second witness ended up allegedly backing up what the first witness told officers. Now, aside from those witness accounts, what the officers discovered when they spoke with the seven-year-old as well as Whaley, that just gave investigators more ammunition for what would eventually be a felony child abuse charge. Okay, so to talk about

Starting point is 00:01:23 this case, I want to welcome back here on Sidebar Victims Rights lawyer John Phillips. John, Good to see you. Thanks for taking the time. So right off the bat, it is already a shocking story, right? You're not only talking about physically assaulting a child. That's the allegation. And if these allegations are true, but to do it in a public place, a grocery store parking lot, that's what's shocking to me about this. Yeah, it begs question of, you know, mental health, sobriety, you know, history of abuse. What led this person to, to make. not only bad decisions, criminal decisions, but ones in public. Right. And if the allegations are true, if someone is doing this in public, imagine what

Starting point is 00:02:09 may be happening behind closed doors, right? This can't just be, I mean, maybe, but it seems not likely that if the allegations are true, this is the first time it ever happened. Right. Typically one that uses a closed fist on a minor, you know, as disciplinary action isn't that evolves, right? That's not something that I think any parent or custodian or babysitter should or would naturally do. It's not discipline. It's battery. So let's talk about this.

Starting point is 00:02:39 When officers arrived at this Kroger, according to WBIR, they talked to the reporting witness who said that he saw Whaley, dragged this child by his arm into a white car, and then hit the child twice in the face with a closed fist. And as I mentioned before, there is apparently a second. witness who corroborated that. Now, let's start right there. Okay. Not every day, John, you get witnesses. Not only, not every day you got two. I don't know if they were spoke, if they were interviewed independently, if they have a connection to each other or not. But assuming that they have no connection, they were, they have independent recollections of

Starting point is 00:03:17 that, pretty strong to say the least. Pretty strong to say the least, Jesse. You know, usually you really just have the victim. And here you've got a victim. that's a minor, you've got a victim that was kind of hesitant to tell the truth, and then the accused who just avoided the conversation entirely. And so that alone would make it a case that while you might start off with a criminal charge, winds up fizzling out before trial. Here, you've got two independent witnesses. So it's hopefully, you know, hopefully they're not a husband and wife that were standing there telling the police the same thing right at the same time, because then you got impeachment of that.

Starting point is 00:03:59 But, you know, here you got a case that can kind of stand on its own. Let's talk about that. When police spoke with this seven-year-old boy, okay, right? The alleged victim in this, he told the officer at first that he had a nosebleed. WBIR reports the officer asked the child if someone had hit him, but the boy appeared to be hesitant to answer that. He then apparently said that he didn't feel it right here, so pointing to the right side of his face, John, let's start here. First of all, how do officers have a conversation? How do investigators have a conversation with a child who is suspected of being abused? How do they have that talk? It's tough. And one would hope Knox County has, you know, the training for that. That's certainly a separate section of the protocol, you know, interviewing and dealing with minor victims. I'm a parent of a seven-year-old, 11-year-old and an eight-year-old. I've been through this stage three times now, you know, without the abuse.

Starting point is 00:04:56 And there's a red alert that kind of, a yellow alert that arises with me with the kid saying it's a nosebleed. Because, again, the truth is usually spontaneous unless a child knows to cover for something. And here, you know, has this child had nosebleeds before, and nosebleeds tend to never have facial trauma associated with them. I guess the question is, right? It's not uncommon for you to see if these allegations are true, a victim, a mind. victim to not initially want to say what happened? Correct, particularly if they've repeatedly been a victim. You know, if they know to cover, they'll cover. If they don't, you know, they wouldn't know that that's wrong. If Johnny hit him in, Little Johnny hit him in the schoolyard, they're not going to

Starting point is 00:05:41 say that was a nosebleed. They're usually going to tell their teacher it was Little Johnny. Now, when it's a custodian or a parent or somebody they're trying to protect, then you start to see cover and lies. How does a defense attorney, if this goes to trial, how does a defense attorney, attorney question the credibility of this child? Delicately, right? So it depends on the relationship. You know, if this is a cousin, if it's an aunt, if it's a babysitter, that's different because you really got to get a history of the relationship here to kind of ask the right questions. But it's always delicate. And, you know, sometimes that's exactly how cases

Starting point is 00:06:26 fizzle out, you know, and defense attorneys win is you've got an uncooperating victim. By the way, you know why we're able to bring you stories like this? It's not only because of the amazing support from you all out there, but also from our incredible sponsor, Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm, a firm with over 1,000 attorneys. You know why they're so big? Because they win a lot. They have recovered over $25 billion for more than 500,000 clients. In the past few months, a client in Florida received $12 million after the insurance company offered just $350,000. Out in Pennsylvania, a client was awarded $26 million.

Starting point is 00:07:00 That is, 40 times the insurer's $650,000 offer. Another client in Pennsylvania received $29 million after being offered only $500,000. And even if you think your case isn't worth millions of dollars, why not start a claim and fight for what you deserve? Morgan and Morgan makes it so simple. You can start a claim from your phone in just eight clicks. So if you're injured, you can easily start a claim at forthepeople.com slash LC sidebar by clicking the link below or scanning the QR code on screen. I wonder if it's also suggesting how young the child is and do they say, what are you learning

Starting point is 00:07:36 in school? Have you learned this? Not saying that this child is lying, not saying that the child is making anything up, but saying is the child experienced enough to know what actually happened or they are so young. account, their description may not be what you think it is. I don't know if that happens. I don't know if that works, because if you ask me, and you ask a lot of people, the seven year old is saying, I'll tell you what happened. You know, how do you deny that? But I imagine is that something a defense attorney could do? That's right. And, you know, you got to think of it

Starting point is 00:08:13 from the standpoint of a seven-year-old, too. I don't know that, and again, I've had three of them through my household. I don't know that a seven-year-old knows that a closed fist is wrong and a slap is right. Or a slap is wrong and a correction, right, to the face. I don't think they know the different levels of battery and what's where the line is. Adults know a closed fist on a child is wrong, right? There's no discipline where an adult can punch a seven-year-old, particularly in the face. That just doesn't exist.

Starting point is 00:08:44 That's abuse, period, and battery, period. But you can get into some nuance with questioning about intent and- Right. What happened right before this happened? But right now, we don't know those facts. Well, and to be clear, and something I should have clarified, eventually this boy told officers or apparently told officers that Whaley had pulled him by his arm to the car and did hit him in the face. So that seems to be the allegation. There is something interesting as well. According to the arrest warrant, this boy had dried blood on his shorts and his leg and his face was red. Do they, do officers document that immediately, John? Are there photographs? Could the blood? be from this? Could it be from something else when you're dealing with a young child? They're running around. They're doing things. How do they prove that is evidence of the alleged abuse at that parking lot? Right. And again, it goes back to what did Knox County's, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:40 Knoxville police, how are they trained? Because I've had similar cases where the officer pulls out their cell phone or the department issued camera takes pictures or calls a supervisor that's in the child abuse department or bring somebody from the Department of Children and Families or whatever the equivalent is there to document it. And then you have some that are like, okay, I'm just going to note it. And it's way easier to impeach a police notation in a report, right, black and white, versus a photo. And that's where cases turn. You know, the more evidence, the better when you're trying to uphold a criminal charge as law enforcement and prosecutors. So you mentioned this, before, eventually officers have to speak with Whaley, right? While WBIR reports that she was sitting

Starting point is 00:10:28 in the driver's seat of the car, the door was open, and she was allegedly washing her hands with water from a water bottle. John, not a great look. Not a great look. What's she cleaning? You know, you've got blood on the child, dried blood. You've got a kid talking about his nose being bloody, and you've got witnesses saying that there was a punch. And here, you've got what could be argued is destruction of evidence, right? Yeah, right. I mean, if you're cleaning your hands and that is evidence, I guess, I think you make a good point. You know, apparently they asked her what happened and she just kept saying that she needed to get her phone. This is according to the warrant. And the documents also indicate that Whaley never ended up giving investigators

Starting point is 00:11:09 an explanation of what happened. John, there's a lot to make there, right? I mean, does it necessarily make her guilty? Because if she really didn't do anything, wouldn't she want to explain this situation. This is a total misunderstanding what's going on to not say anything. You know, I guess the defense attorney could say, hey, listen, she was just preserving her rights. She just wanted to have an attorney. She didn't want to say anything. But also I have to imagine a reasonable alternative would be saying this is, I have no idea what's going on here. There's two ways. There's a right and wrong way, you know, some would argue to elect the Fifth Amendment right to not incriminate, right? The right way is like, look, I appreciate what you're trying to do.

Starting point is 00:11:51 here, but I do have this pesky old bill of rights, you know, that's going to protect me, right? Then there's the wrong way, which is to lie, to be deceptive, to deflect, because that becomes evidence in and of itself. It's one thing to put in a report. We asked, she elected her constitutional right. It's another, she appeared evasive, again, where I started. There's just something missing here, and is it a history of abuse? Is it mental health?

Starting point is 00:12:15 Is it alcohol? Why was there, you know, an apparent crime and inconsistent behavior? you're all around the same time. And that raises, that raises, you know, suspicion. And wanting her phone, wanting her phone, insisting she wants her phone, what do you think that's about? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. That one struck me as strange, unless she was trying to call somebody, which, by the way, yeah, well, if she wanted to request a lawyer, it's different than just saying, you know, she wanted her phone. I guess this is a part that we haven't even talked about. Who is she, right? What's her relation to this child? Let's talk about it.

Starting point is 00:12:51 Well, Whaley was arrested and booked into the Knox County Jail. This seven-year-old was released to his mother. Yes, so to be clear, Whaley is not this child's mother. WBIR reports that Whaley's relationship to the boy is not 100% clear. However, Whaley's Facebook profile indicates, or seemingly indicates, that she is married to a Marla Whaley, and the two appear to have multiple children in their care. John, back to you. Does Whaley's relationship to the victim make a difference here, the parent victim, if she was the child's birth parent versus a step parent or a caretaker? Does it affect the analysis? Does it affect the charge? Does it affect the punishment in some way?

Starting point is 00:13:36 I think all of the things are factors that get added in. And again, you've got to go to the whole thing that we've discussed. Is this a child of abuse or is this a child of battery, right? And I realize there might be a distinction without a difference there because it's charged under child abuse. But when I'm using the word abuse, I mean kind of a history. And again, you don't start punching a kid in the face with a closed fist first time. I think that's a pretty safe assumption. And so if it's a babysitter, then you're worried about a bunch of other kids. If it's a step-parent, you might be worried about a limited set of kids. If it's a parent, you got a different set of kids. And I think all of that matters because the relationship, the relationship of trust,

Starting point is 00:14:18 the relationship to avoid battery and abuse, while under the black letter law, doesn't matter because it's abuse, right? You punch a kid in the face with a closed fist, it's abuse. But on the other side of it, it does matter because how systemic has it been, how many incidents, does this child need to be with this person anymore? And it's easy to remove a custodian or babysitter.

Starting point is 00:14:41 it's a little more difficult under the law to remove a step-parent or a parent from, from abuse. And then, you know, does the other spouse know? And so there's just so much here. That's the point. Assuming these allegations are true, could the child's birth mother have any legal culpability? Yes. I mean, it depends on what's going on broader than what happened and that in that, Kroger parking lot. Right. Does a, does a felony charge like this automatically trigger child protective services to get involved? So that the crazy thing about that question is there's state implications and then there's there's municipal implications and then there's policy implications. And so each municipality, county, state is different. Typically, you would hope that when you

Starting point is 00:15:39 have the abuse of a child that somebody with a state agency, particularly a child welfare DCF kind of place, is alerted. You know, we've seen it, though, over and over where, you know, even parents are arrested, Baker acted, you know, under a host of investigations, and the co-parent never finds out until down the road. And it's, there's so many flaws in that system. Now, Whaley was charged with felony child abuse. And it's unclear if she's been released from jail or when she's going to be next in court. But let's talk about the law, because under Tennessee law, a person can be charged with child abuse if they knowingly treat a child under 18 years of age in such a manner as to inflict injury, or if they knowingly abuse or neglect a child

Starting point is 00:16:24 under 18 so as to adversely affect the child's health and welfare. Now, in the first instance, which involves knowingly inflicting injury, it is a class D felony, which is our understanding, carries a punishment of between two and 12 years behind bars and a fine of no more than 5,000. The second, abusing or neglecting a child in a way that affects their welfare, that's a class E felony, which under Tennessee's criminal code carries a sentence of between one and six years plus a $3,000 fine. John, both of these feel very broad, feel very broad in a way that helps prosecutors. It can encompass a lot of conduct here, right? One person's broad is another person's child protection, right? the law was written to ultimately protect minors who otherwise may not be able to protect themselves.

Starting point is 00:17:12 And then it's up to really juries and judges to figure out which one's more appropriate. And I'd rather see that than have, you know, abusers get by on a participle or a phrase, right? And so word even. There's a little bit of feature there, but on the same token, you know, whether it's one to ten or two to twelve, we're in a pretty similar ballpark. you know, between D and E or E and F, whichever it was. It is interesting to note that Tennessee law has recently updated it. So that injury to any child under the age of 18 is charged as a felony. That's a big deal because previously in the state, a felony designation was given to all cases

Starting point is 00:17:57 involving a child age eight or younger. So while abuse against the child nine or older could be designated as a misdemeanor, on the allegations, now there's a change. The change went into effect July 1st of this year. That's significant. John, are you seeing that more? Does it make sense to you to do that? Yes, the former criminal defense, more active criminal defense lawyer in me, you know, does worry about the exceptions to the rule, right? Again, as a parent to three rambunctious boys, I was raised being spanked and belted. And my firstborn, I spanked some. Then I was. kind of realized spanking doesn't work. And I'll threaten the spanking every now and again,

Starting point is 00:18:38 but I just don't hit my kids anymore. They're old enough that we can kind of reason and do push-ups, right? There's things they can do that alternatives. But if there's a parent that still chooses to spank, where's the line between spank and like belt, right? I do get worried about the possibility of kind of over-protecting children when it's discipline-related. But the core issue is is that line between misdemeanor and felony, the less than one year or over one year. And, you know, while I like that there's, there used to be a difference when it comes to abuse of children, you know, we really do need to take it seriously. And so felony, you know, felonies should probably be the general rule.

Starting point is 00:19:24 And let me give you a little bit more context of that. So one of the state representatives who supported legislation to update the criminal code was Jake McCallman, told the Tennessee conservative in February, crimes against kids have become something I've become passionate about up here. I learned last year in looking up different pieces of code that without this law in place, if you go and you steal a Louis Vuitton bag, that's a Class E felony. You can do up to five years in prison. If you put a nine-year-old in the hospital and you're convicted, the most time you'll spend is 11 months and 29 days, so essentially a year in jail. Now, John, going back to this case, what do you expect

Starting point is 00:19:56 here? Is it too early to know? Is it too early to have conversations about a plea deal? Talk to me about this? The question that I would have as far as going forward is, does the person charged have a criminal history, right? Because that'll kind of determine the process through the criminal justice system. If there's no history and DCF pokes around and says, all right, this seems to have been an isolated incident, that's one path. It could be plea bargained, probation, just keep an eye out on this situation. If this person has a history or there's broader concerns at home, if they have a day-to-day relationship with his child, I think the criminal justice system needs to be a little bit more aggressive and see what's going on. There's an obligation to protect those that can't

Starting point is 00:20:38 protect themselves. No, John, that's a really good point. And again, it's an unfortunate, another case of alleged child abuse that we're covering here. But let's see which way this progresses. John Phillips, thank you so much for taking the time. Appreciate it. And that is all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Wherever you should get your podcast, you can follow me on X or Instagram. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time.

Law&Crime Sidebar - Grown Woman Punched 7-Year-Old in Face in Store Parking Lot: Cops

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