Law&Crime Sidebar - Heard's Constitutional Rights, Kevin Spacey, Avenatti Pleading Guilty

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

Law&Crime's Angenette Levy has the latest from Amber Heard’s interview with NBC including her claim that she never started a physical fight with Johnny Depp despite audio recordings capturing her saying otherwise. Kevin Spacey faces new sex charges in the UK. Will these stick? Attorney Philip Dube weighs in, and Michael Avenatti finally admits he stole millions from clients. Former federal prosecutor Neama Rahmani’s take on the mea culpa from the disgraced attorney. GUESTS:Philip Dube, Public Defender Neama Rahmani, CA Plaintiff's Attorney LAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam Goldberg Video Editing - Sean BauerGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher Social Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. You're such a baby! Grow the fuck up, Johnny! I did start a physical fight. I did start a physical fight. Because... Yes, you did. So you did the right thing. big thing. You know what? You're admirable. That's one of those epic and incredibly sad audio recordings from Johnny Depp and Amber Heard during their marriage. Now Amber Heard denying that she ever started physical fights during the marriage. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy and welcome

to this latest edition of Law and Crime Sidebar podcast. We are of course monitoring the very latest Johnny Depp via Amber Heard and we're also looking into the newest clips from that interview that Amber Heard granted to NBC News and Savannah Guthrie. We're also diving into the sex crimes allegations against actor Kevin Spacey in the UK. He'll be in court later this week. And lawyer Michael Avanotti is set to plead guilty that he stole millions of dollars from his clients. But first, the latest on Amber Heard's interview with Savannah Guthrie. This was an exclusive interview that she's granted to NBC News and we're told she won't be doing any more interviews with media, at least not any more broadcast interviews. And the Today Show aired new portions

of this interview on Tuesday morning with her discussing her right to speak her mind. This is not only about our First Amendment right to speak. But here's the thing about the First Amendment. The First Amendment protects free speech. It doesn't protect lies that amount to defamation. And that was the issue in the case. Yes, exactly. You can't go into the free speech does not protect to you if you, you know, go into a crowded theater and you scream fire. We get the concept of free speech from the Greeks. My understanding of what that means is not just the freedom to speak. It's a freedom to speak truth to power.

The truth is the word. Yes. That was the issue. And that's all I spoke. And I spoke it to power and I paid the price. Now let's be clear here and let's get real. The First Amendment does not cover defamation. And this jury in Fairfax County found that Amber Hurd lied and that she did it with actual malice to hurt Johnny Depp.

Now, Savannah Guthrie also asked Amber Hurd about the acclaim by Johnny Depp's attorney Camille Vasquez that Hurd put on the performance of her life while testifying during the trial. In the closing arguments, the Depp lawyer said, called your testimony the performance of a lifetime and said you were acting. What do you say to that? says the lawyer for the man who convinced the world he had scissors for fingers. I'm the performer. I had listened to weeks of testimony, insinuating that or saying quite directly that, you know, I'm a terrible actress. So I'm a bit confused how I could be both. Amber Hurd, basically saying that Johnny Depp was acting on the stand, and if he could convince people that he was Edward Scissorhands on the silver screen, then he could convince them of anything,

and that that's what he was doing on the witness stand. I think I'd be remiss, though, if I didn't point out, that on the day of the verdict, I interviewed Kathleen Zellner. She is a famous criminal defense attorney. She has gotten people exonerated of crimes and won their releases from prison. She was in making a murderer, too. And I asked Kathleen Zellner, straight up, I said, did we see the real Johnny Depp on the stand? People said he was acting. And she said, we did. She said, what you see is what you get.

And that that is what the jury saw. She said they saw the real Johnny Depp. Kathleen Zellner, of course, has been a consultant for Johnny Depp on this case since earlier this year. Now, in Heard's interview, Savannah Guthrie challenged Amber Heard on her claim that she didn't start physical fights with Johnny Depp during their marriage. The Depp team argued that you were the abuser. that you instigated physical violence, did you? I never had to instigate it. I responded to it.

When you're living in violence and it becomes normal, as I testified to, you have to adapt. You say you were responding, but there is evidence. There are tapes in which you acknowledge hitting. There are tapes in which you say, I started the fight. I know much has been made of these audio tapes. They were first leaked online after being edited. What you would hear in those clips are not evidence of what was happening.

It was evidence of a negotiation of how to talk about that with your abuser. But I am looking at a transcript that says, he says, you start physical fights and you say, I did start a physical fight. I can't promise you, I won't get physical again. I mean, this is in black and white. I understand context. that you're testifying and you're just telling me today, I never started a physical fight,

and here you are on tape saying you did. As I testified on the stand about this, is that when your life is at risk, not only will you take the blame for things that you shouldn't take the blame for, but when you're in an abusive dynamic, psychologically, emotionally, and physically, you don't have the resources that, say, you or I do

with the luxury of saying, hey, this is black and white, because it's anything but when you're living in it. So Savannah Guthrie, of course, being a journalist, pushed back on Amber Hurd's claim, that audio clip, where Hurd admitted this. It was played during the trial, and this is the unedited clip. I said to you, I said, no, I said to you, hey, tell Travis what just happened.

Oh, you told me to do it. You said, go do that. I said, no, tell them what just happened. And I lie. And that you punched me in the thing. You figured it up. And you said, I didn't, what the f*** I'm talking about? And I watched you lie.

I didn't punch you, by the way. I'm sorry that I didn't hit you across the face in a proper slap, but I was hitting you. It was not punching you. Babe, you're not punched. Don't tell me what it feels like to be punched. You know, even a lot of fights have been around a long time. I don't know. No, when you fucking have a close.

You didn't get punched. You got hit. I'm sorry I hit you like this. But I did not punch you. I did not deck you I was hitting you I don't know what the boat motion of my actual hand was

but you're fine I did not hurt you I did not punch you I was hitting you how what am I supposed to do do this I'm not sitting here bitching about it am I you are that's the difference between me and you

your baby you're such a baby grow all the fuck up Johnny I did start a physical fight I did so I had to get out of it Yes, you did. So you did the right thing, the big thing. You know what? You're admirable. After hearing that audio clip, it just doesn't seem like there's much more to argue about. How can you quibble with that? We also heard audio recordings during the trial, and these would have been authenticated by both sides or stipulated to as being authentic.

And Amber Hurd said on audio very clearly that she threw pots and pans at Johnny Depp. The jury did not believe her. complaints charges that in the town of Nantucket on July 8th, 2016, did commit indecent assault and battering on person 14 or over. That was from an arraignment of Kevin Spacey back in 2019. Prosecutors in Massachusetts, of course, later dropped that case, but now Kevin Spacey is back in hot water, this time in the United Kingdom, facing a number of sex crimes charges, some of them dating back to 2005. So who better to talk with us about this than Philip Dubay? He is a deputy public defender in Los Angeles County. He's out there in Hollywood, although he is not here in his official capacity. He is here to talk with us specifically about this case and to offer his

expertise. Philip, tell us a little bit about this case involving Kevin Spacey. Yeah, Kevin Spacey is in a world of criminal hurt right now. The Crown Prosecution Service, in fact, filed criminal charges against him. There are four counts, and they're dating all the way back to 2005. There were two counts from March of 2005 of sexual assault, and it's a pretty broad definition under British law. A sexual assault is a non-consensual sexual touching of another, and it could be anywhere on the body. So in theory, I could walk up to you in a bar and scratch the back of your head, and if I have a sexual or lewd intent, it's a sex act. It's a sexual assault, and that carries, I believe, up to seven years or 10 years, if I'm not mistaken. You could be granted

probation up to seven years as the average, but I think his max is 10 years per count. So it's very serious. Now, out here in California, at least, and throughout the United States, we wouldn't even call that a sexual battery unless there's a touching of an intimate part of the body. But in England, you know, they're focusing more on the criminal intent as opposed to the touching itself. So it doesn't matter where you touch a person. And by the way, it's gender neutral. It doesn't matter if who you're touching is male, female, and of course a child, you know. And by the way, the penalties are worse if God forbid you do that to a kid. The third count is another sexual assault from August of 2008. And then the fourth count was another sexual assault from April of

2013. So this is conduct that is spanning almost two decades, and he's going to be 63 this year, so this behavior as charge started in his early 40s, assuming he's guilty. Now, they do have a presumption of innocence in England. I don't believe he's going to get a jury. I think he's going to get basically a wigged man and a moo-moo, if you will, on the British bench there, who'll decide guilt. And frankly, I think he's going to get a fair trial. You know, don't ever underestimate men in wigs because they can be fair. They're on the bench for a reason. But he is facing some pretty serious criminal liability.

I believe one of the counts could carry up to life in prison. If he's guilty, this would have started back in his 40s. But, but Philip, let's let's be honest here. If he is in fact guilty and if in fact Kevin Spacey, and we need to give him the benefit of the doubt, we need to keep our wits about us, of course, and use our common sense. but we need to afford him the presumption of innocence. I highly doubt it started just in his 40s. These things don't just spring up in midlife.

Oh, of course, stop. Listen, you know, this could be an inherent character flaw in whoever he is. Maybe he feels that because he's in the limelight, he has license to grope or, you know, feel up whoever he feels like it, even in a public forum, like a bar, a pub, a supermarket, or any private setting. And, you know, there are criminal consequences. if that act is unwelcome and if there is a moot or sexual intent accompanying that act. You know, you can do time for it.

Now, as a practical matter, especially out here, they would never file that. If somebody came up to you and just, you know, on your back, patted you on the back, but going through the back of that person's mind is, gee, you know, I would like to get between the sheets with this person, they would never file it because a jury would have a hard time convicting. There's just simply not enough objective evidence to get into the assaulter's head or the attacker's head. Objectively, touching a non-intimate part of the body shows maybe an act at most of flirtation, a kind gesture, or just somebody who's a little touchy-feely with poor boundaries. But it doesn't necessarily imply a sexual intent. He's effectively been canceled in

Hollywood. He's over. You live out in L.A. What's the vibe out there? the talk. You know, it's interesting. You know, first of all, I don't consider him to be an A actor. You know, he's not up there like, you know, with the superstars. He's a well-known working actor, you know, but I would not call him, you know, somebody who's at the forefront of everybody's mind when they think about going to the movies or watching a made-for-TV movie. You know, he's just a long-time working actor. I got to tell you, over time, Hollywood, fans, the public, the media, they tend to be forgiving. When people recognize their demons, they do their time, they pay their debts to society,

they get the help they need. We're into second chances, especially in this country. So, yes, there may be a temporary cancel culture that will affect a lot of people, not just him. It's people, you know, the crew, the people on set, the people who are marketing him, they'll all take a hit, but he'll rebound. You know why? Because he's talented. At the end of the day, he is still a very talented actor.

And maybe he'll outgrow this nonsense, pay his debt, and move on with his life. And you never know. He might creatively try to make it his brand. He'll try to make it work for him so that even though it was a setback, he might be able to later use it to his advantage and not just shy away from it. But, Philip, the key to what you said there is take responsibility and get help to date. He has denied all of the allegations that have come his way, even ones that have been levied against him in the United States.

In the pre-COVID days, when people would go to a bar, it was not uncommon, even though it was uncouth, to, you know, goose somebody, say inappropriate things to somebody walking by, do maybe an inappropriate touching on the shoulder, maybe even the buttocks. But does it necessarily mean that it's criminal? Does it necessarily mean that it's lewd? is just an inappropriate act of flirtation in his mind. And that'll probably be his defense or that it never happened and all these people are on the bandwagon to try and take him down. I don't know what his defense will be. My hunch is he's going to say that it never happened and people are just trying to take advantage of him for financial reasons.

He is the golden goose. He is the gravy train for a lot of poor people and they might just try to sue him to see if they can cash in on it. We shall see. Thank you so much, Philip DeVis. We shall see. Philip DeVay, thank you so much. Michael Avanetti, remember him?

He is that lawyer who came out, guns blazing against Donald Trump back in like 2016, 17, 18, somewhere in there. He was on CNN every night. I would turn on Anderson Cooper, and there's Michael Avanotti. I thought he had become a co-host. Well, what a fall from Grace, of course. He was convicted of stealing money from Stormy Daniels, his most famous client, and he's doing some time in federal prison now, well, he's going to plead guilty to stealing millions of dollars from other clients, these in California. Joining us to talk a little bit about that is Nima Romani, a former federal prosecutor, and currently practicing law out there in L.A.

Nima, thanks for coming on. Tell us a little bit about Michael Avanotti. Are you surprised that he is going to plead guilty to stealing when he denied stealing from Stormy? You know, I am surprised. I mean, talk about a tremendous fall from grace. This is someone that people were talking about as a presidential candidate. And not only did he extort money from Nike, was convicted there. I got a significantly reduced sentence. You know, Stormy Daniels, we saw his really public proclamations of innocent.

You know, and then, you know, he ended up getting convicted in that case. And of course, the final case, maybe even the worst case of all, we're talking about $10 million from four victims who were stolen, and one of whom was reportedly paraplegic. I am surprised because of his really sort of aggressive defense in this case and the fact that he's pleading open without a plea agreement. That's not something that you typically see, Angina. Why is he doing this?

This is a guy that never admits fault. He never admits he's wrong. So why is he doing this now? I think he's hoping for some concurrent time. Obviously, these are separate cases so judges can sentence consecutively. And Judge Selna, who I know I've appeared before him, there in Orange, Orange, County, California is not easy when it comes to sentencing, tends to be more conservative. But we saw that after the Nike case, that you got basically two and a half years and another

two and a half years in the Stormy Daniels case, some of that time was concurrent because under the sentencing guidelines, he was looking at much, much more time in prison. So maybe he's thinking that, look, if I plead, I can get some concurrent time. I'm already doing five years. maybe the judge will cut me a break, and instead of running these sentences back to back, run them at the same time. I think that's really the only possible reason for him doing this. There's got to be some strategy here. Do you think maybe reality is starting to hit him?

He's in federal prison. He's like, you know what? They say federal prisons better than state prison, but still not my bag. No, definitely. I think no one's back. It's a lot better than state prison, especially for a white shoe lawyer like Avanati. but, I mean, you know, he's doing significant time. Generally, you got to serve 85% by statute.

And maybe the reality has kicked in. You know, he obviously his first case mistrial, he was retried and he was ultimately convicted. But I think maybe the writing is on the wall, especially when you have this case, you don't have the defense that he had in the Stormy Daniels case or even the Nike case, right? The Nike case looking at, you know, there was Mark Garrigal, one of the other attorneys that was allegedly involved in the judge publicly questioned, hey why wasn't he charged you know with respect to stormy daniels just frankly she's just a less sympathetic victim um than the victims he has in this case this of all the cases when prosecutors were talking about the alleged crimes i thought wow this is the worst as a lawyer probably the

worst thing you could do is steal money from your clients mismanaged that trust account and that's what the allegations are here and these are real victims of crime not someone that's been defamed or someone that was been assorted. These are people that have been seriously injured. Their whole life has been turned upside out. And to steal money from them, I don't think Selna would cut him any type of break if you actually push this case to trial and made those poor victims testify. Well, I think we're going to all be watching to see what happens in this case and how much time he actually gets. Nima, thanks so much for coming on. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me and Janet. And that's it for this edition of Law and Crime Sidebar podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. You can

us on Apple, Spotify, Google, YouTube, and wherever else you get your podcasts. We'll see you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series, ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.