Law&Crime Sidebar - Highlighting Key Witness Testimonies in Depp v Amber Heard Trial

Episode Date: May 15, 2022

Law&Crime's Jesse Weber highlights important moments from key witnesses' testimonies in the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard defamation trial. We've seen Depp's friends and family members, along with multiple medical and business professionals who have worked closely with Depp and Heard testify so far. Tune in to Law&Crime on Monday at 9AM EST to watch the trial live as it resumes from a week-long break. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SHOW:Get Surfshark VPN at https://surfshark.deals/LAW83 - enter promo code LAW83 for 83% off and 3 extra months for free!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. And for Johnny, his family has been completely wrecked by all of this stuff. And it's not, it's, it's not, it's not, it's not fair. It's not right. What, what she did and what happened for so many people to get affected from this. It's, it's insane. And Mr. Baruch, that's how this happened. No sugar-coating that. That's Isaac Baruch. Johnny Depp's friend testifying that clearly he doesn't believe Amber Hurd's abuse allegations. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime, where we recap the biggest

moments in the day's biggest trials. I'm Jesse Weber. So we're talking the ongoing trial of Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard out in Fairfax County, Virginia. Depp is suing his ex-wife for $50 million, claiming defamation, namely that she falsely accused him of domestic violence in a 2018 Washington Post op-ed piece, and that that article ruined his. life and his career. Now, she's actually counter suing him for $100 million saying that he defamed her when he publicly called her a liar and that she created a hoax about him being an abuser. Now, there's no court this week. It's a pre-scheduled week where a court is dark. They're going to be back Monday, May 16th, with Amber Hurd back on the stand. So we thought it would be a good

opportunity to do something a little different. Previous episodes, we played key moments from Amber Hurd's testimony, Johnny Depp's testimony, but what about everybody else who's testified so far? That's why we're going to go through some of the most important testimony of other witnesses. And probably the best place to start is with Dr. Laurel Anderson, Johnny and Amber's marriage counselor. In working with Amber and Mr. Depp, did Amber ever report to you any physical violence on behalf of Mr. Depp toward Amber? Yes. What type of physical violence did she report to you?

Do you recall seeing photos from Amber Heard? I have, but I don't remember when I saw them. What do you recall about the photos? Her face was bruised. Do you recall where on her face you saw, on Amber's face you saw verses? I think they were around her eyes, but I couldn't be positive. Did you witness abuse by either? I didn't.

He didn't witness. Had you worked with Mr. Depp before working with Amber and Mr. Depp? Yeah. Is it your testimony that while Mr. Depp may have said he wasn't violent with any of his other partners, there was violence between, from Mr. Depp toward Amber, correct? Yes, you're right. He had, he had been well controlled, I think, for, almost, I don't know, 20, 30 years, and both were victims of abuse in their homes.

But I thought he had been well controlled for decades. And then with Ms. Hurd, he was triggered and they engaged in what I saw as mutual abuse. Okay. So she, like many other witnesses we've heard from, never saw Johnny Depp physically assault, physically abuse Amber Hurd. But, like we've seen in other bits of testimony and some other evidence, there appears to be injuries to Amber Hurd. The separate question of if they're real, or did she manufacture the bruises, or could they

have been caused by something else other than Depp, this is just going to be a major point in this case for the jury to decide. But the fact that she says there was mutual abuse, that is not great for Johnny Depp, because if the jury finds just even one act of abuse, whether it be physical, emotional, mental, verbal, then most likely Depp would lose his case because they could say, hey, Amber Heard didn't lie in the article about being a victim.

However, helping Johnny Depp's case or helping the idea that Hurd did in fact lie is that when police were called to an alleged domestic violence incident at Depp's L.A. Penhouse in 2016, Heard claimed that, you know, Depp attacked her. But when police arrived, listen to what they found or maybe didn't find. Did you see any swelling of any kind on her face either during the first time you saw her or the second time you saw her that night? No.

Did you see any marks on her face either the first time you observed her that night or the second time you observed her that night or the second time you observed her? just the redness for which was consistent with her crying. Did you, did you see any time that night, any indication of any bruising on her face? No. Did you see at any time that evening any, any indication or any sign whatsoever of any injury to her face? No.

During your investigation, you had other reasons to believe what was true. That it was a verbal dispute. And what did you have during your investigation that created, in your mind, evidence that it was only a verbal dispute? After discussing the investigation with my partner at the scene, the misheard refused any medical treatment and had no visible injuries. there was no sign of struggle and the victim or correction the witness that was there that I spoke with was uncooperative as well anything else at this time that's all on one hand you have trained officers like Tyler had and who didn't observe any signs of domestic violence just a verbal dispute this is something that they're trained in this is something that they have experience in

but on the other hand it is common for victims to not report a crime Also, on cross-examination, these officers were shown to not take notes, and perhaps they kind of rushed to judgment here? I shouldn't point out that in the UK trial, where Depp was suing the publisher of the son for an article that called him a wife-beater, the judge in that case who found that Johnny Depp did abuse Amber Heard, the judge took issue with the fact that the officers didn't take notes. Now, through this case, Depp has been key that he wants to not only clear his name, but reframe

the entire narrative. He wants to show both in the courtroom and for the whole world watching. Not only is he not the abuser, but he was the victim. He testified that he was physically attacked by Amber Hurd. And that brings us to the testimony of Travis McGivorne, Johnny Depp's bodyguard, who, unlike other witnesses, claims he actually saw this abuse firsthand. Then there were also moments of yelling and anger from both of them. And at some point I witnessed Ms. Hurd throw a Red Bull camp.

She was agitated. Mr. Depp was agitated. I felt it was time to get Mr. Depp out of the situation. So I stepped in between Ms. Heard and Mr. Depp, telling Mr. Depp that we were leaving and that it wasn't up to him anymore. at that point out of the corner of my eye I saw a fist and an arm come across my right shoulder and I heard and saw a closed fist contact Mr. Depp in the left side of his face and whose fist was that

that was Miss Hurd's fist Amber Hurd's fist That is powerful testimony for Johnny Depp But McGiven He did acknowledge That Depp has been verbally abusive Towards Amber Heard And that in fact

He saw Johnny Depp throw all of Amber Heard's clothes down From the racks at one point Again the jury If they believe that They could see this as Amber Heard is the victim and believe she didn't commit defamation. This podcast is sponsored by Surf Shark VPN. Safety and security online should be important to everybody.

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money-back guarantee meaning there is no risk to you you surf with your own set of rules the link is in the description all right so a central issue in this case is how did the washing Post article, the very thing that Johnny Depp is suing Amber heard for, how did that article harm him? It's a big factor in defamation. What did you lose? How are you harmed? It's especially important for damages and what you can recover if you win the case. So Johnny Depp has been calling witnesses to suggest, well, because of the Washington Post op-ed, he lost Pirates of the Caribbean 6. He became a pariah in Hollywood. He lost his ability to star in big budget films. And in fact, an economic damages examiner, Mike Spindler testified that Johnny Depp suffered lost earnings totaling

$40 million. Now, Hurd's side is saying the complete opposite, that Depp wasn't harmed by the Washington Post article, that everything he lost was due to things before the publication of the piece, things that Johnny Depp is not and cannot sue Amber Heard for right now. Giving an example of that, listen to Amber Heard's lawyers cross-examined Mr. Spindler. So you're not looking at whether the article published in the UK in June 2018 calling Mr. Depp a wife-beater caused him the damages, correct? Correct.

You're not looking at whether the lawsuit that he brought in the U.K. Against the publisher of that article caused him those damages, right? Correct. You're not looking at any of the evidence that came out in that lawsuit about alleged instances of abuse against Amber, correct? Correct. You're not looking at whether the consequences of Mr. Depp's drug and alcohol, use have caused them the damages you're discussing, correct?

Correct. You're not looking at whether the worsening performance at the box office of Mr. Depp's movies over time has caused them the damages that you're testifying about, correct? Correct, and I'm not acknowledging any of this being accurate. I'm just saying that that wasn't part of my calculations. Sure, I understand. I just want to make clear what you didn't look at,

what you're not opining on. And so to round that out, you're not considering even the impact of Amber obtaining a restraining order in May 2016 and whether that may have caused them damages. That's not part of your opinion, correct? Well, since we were taking a look at lost bookings using 2017 as a base year, any activity that preceded that would have been baked into those calculations that way. That is so critical because even when Johnny Depp was on the stand, he seemed to have trouble articulating that it was the article specifically that caused him harm.

We move on, though, because we have to talk about the conflicting testimony of two major witnesses. So first, Johnny Depp calls Dr. Shannon Curry, a forensic psychologist who examined Herd. Did you form any opinions with respect to Ms. Herd? I did. What were those opinions? The results of Ms. Heard's evaluation supported two diagnoses, borderline personality disorder, and histrionic personality disorder. So emotional reactivity is very common in the diagnosis. So essentially, like I said, there's instability in emotions.

People with borderline personality disorder are often misdiagnosed as having bipolar disorder because they can be up and down. They can look very depressed and they can look very elated. But these changes are happening within a matter of hours. Somebody with bipolar disorder, this is a clinical depression lasting days, weeks, a clinical depression. lasting days, weeks, a clinical mania where sometimes they even need to be hospitalized because they're so grandiose. They clear out their bank account and go to Vegas and spend it all. They're acting in some very bizarre ways. With borderline personality disorder, you're having these fluctuating

moods constantly. And again, this hypersensitivity to being slighted or feeling offended, really driven by the fear that if you're offended or slighted, if the therapist comes in two minutes late or if somebody shows up to dinner two minutes late that they might be abandoning you and it's not as if the borderline is considering themselves abandoned in that moment but they just know that they have this overwhelming emotion and there are no attempts to control that emotion there's no there are no attempts to regulate it so if they're in the middle of the restaurant and they feel offended they're going to start the fight people are going to see it or they might just start crying or breakdown, but they'll make a lot of accusations,

and that reactivity is when you're going to just, you're going to see a lot of this escalation and the bizarre behavior. They can react violently. They can react aggressively. They will often physically prevent their partner from trying to leave if their partner wants to get space from all of this intense emotion. And oftentimes, they will be abusive to their partners in these situations. They might say that they are going to file a restraining order or claim abuse or they might do these things to essentially try to keep their partner from leaving. In the moment, again, they're not consciously thinking, I'm going to keep my partner from leaving right now. They're just thinking, I can't stand this. I hate my partner. They went from idealizing to suddenly devaluing

because of the hurt. And they'll do anything to express that big emotion of anger. This is huge, because if the jury believes Dr. Curry, then Amber Hurd is someone who's unstable, she's violent, prone to outbursts, and someone who exaggerates victimhood. Her testimony lined up perfectly with all of the other witnesses that testified in Depp's case, it's similar things about Amber Hurd. So in other words, the jury could say, you know what, Amber Hurd was not the victim of domestic abuse as she claims. She made up these accusations against Johnny Depp, maybe to try to hold on to him in the relationship, or maybe to seek attention. I mean, Dr. Curry even says, that Amber Hurd was faking symptoms of PTSD?

Ms. Hurd did not have PTSD, and there were also pretty significant indications that she was grossly exaggerating symptoms of PTSD when asked about them. How did you make that latter conclusion? So one of the strengths of this test, as I mentioned, the important thing about any test used when you're doing an evaluation in forensics

is to make sure that the person is responsible, accurately. And this test does that by not just asking people whether they have a symptom, but asking follow-up questions that draw out very detailed accounts of every single symptom of PTSD. And when you're really familiar with this disorder, which you need to be to administer this test, there are nuances in the way a person will describe their symptoms that have been shown repeatedly to indicate exaggeration or faking, there are also indications when somebody is clearly giving you a genuine response.

Again, this is great for Depp. But then, the first witness called by Amber Heard's side when they began their case is their forensic psychologist, Dr. Dawn Hughes, who had a completely opposite conclusion from Dr. Curry. Did you arrive at any expert opinions? Yes, I did. All right. I'm going, I'd like to start with your main expert opinions and then go through those. Can you please tell the jury what your main opinions were?

So like I said, there are opinions embedded within them, but the main opinion is that Ms. Hurd's report of intimate partner violence and the records that I reviewed is consistent with what we know in the field about intimate partner violence, characterized by physical violence, psychological aggression, sexual violence, coercive control, and surveillance behaviors. And what was the other main opinion that you had? The second main opinion was that Ms. Hurd demonstrated very clear psychological and traumatic effects or the exacerbation of trauma from those statements that Mr.

Dutt made through his attorney. There were three statements. that we evaluated to see how they affected her emotionally and psychologically, and it was my determination that they did. And did you arrive at any diagnostic conclusions? Yes, I did. And what were those? I diagnosed Misheard with post-traumatic stress disorder.

Dr. Curry testified that one test showed, quote, intentional exaggeration in the 98th percentile, meaning that she engaged in extreme levels of exaggeration, end of quote. Do you agree with that? I do not. Why? Because that test, the scale that she is referring to is the, it's called ATR, it's the atypical response scale. As I said, that combines rare symptoms and overendorse symptoms.

It's very frequently elevated in people who have high levels of distress. And then importantly, on this test specifically, it says do not use the percentile rank. It is in the manual. It is in italicies because the way that this test was normed, it was normed on people who have trauma. So it's what we call negatively skewed. That means it falls on the tail end of the continuum. It is not a normal curve where we would normally think of how a percentile would work. So you would not use the percentile rank on this test. According to Dr. Hughes, herd doesn't have borderline personality disorder.

She isn't faking the symptoms of PTSD. And in fact, Hurd is showing signs of being a victim of intimate partner violence, namely at the hands of Johnny Depp. I mean, talk about a tough job for the jury, trying to sort out which professional to believe here. Now it's possible, and we've kind of seen this before in other cases. The jury could say, you know what, I can't determine which of these experts to believe. I'm going to cancel both of them out and focus just on the other evidence in the case. But really, this is just a microcosm of a lot of the conflicting. testimony that the jury's going to have to weigh, and it is definitely not an easy job for them.

Thanks for joining us here on Sidebar. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. Speak to you next time. the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.