Law&Crime Sidebar - How Will Alex Jones Pay Off Nearly $1 Billion in Damages?

Episode Date: October 16, 2022

A jury hit Alex Jones with almost $1 billion in damages owed to Sandy Hook plaintiffs this week. The question is, will the plaintiffs ever see that money? The Law&Crime Network's Jesse Weber and professor of bankruptcy law Bruce Alan Markell weigh in on the massive verdict.GUEST:Guest: Professor Bruce Alan MarkellLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Michael Deininger & Logan HarrisGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Billion dollars owed by Alex Jones. I personally don't have two million dollars. The company's almost completely out of money. We're in bankruptcy. There's two appeals. It'll take years. There's caps on almost all of this. This is just completely, absolutely made up. After a jury hits Alex Jones with an almost $1 billion damages award, will the plaintiffs ever see any of that money?

Bankruptcy Professor Bruce Markell explains. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. No surprise that we have heavily covered the Alex Jones case here on Sidebar, and of course, the monumental jury award that has everyone talking right now, a Connecticut jury awarded a former FBI agent and family members of victims in the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting $965 million in damages. This is for Jones's public comments on Infowars programs that Sandy Hook was a false flag event, that it was staged, that there were crisis

actors. And it was also shown how his engagement with his followers kept increasing as he kept spouting this off and how he profited off of this by selling products on his website. And the most disturbing aspect of all is that Jones supporters actually threatened and harassed some of the plaintiffs in this case. And this was a trial where Jones had lost by default judgment. The judge ruled that he automatically lost because he chose not to comply with court orders, discovery obligations in this case. So he was automatically found liable for various claims like defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress. So it just became a question of how much did he have to pay out to the plaintiffs? And on top of the $965 million in damages, he's also going to have to pay out attorney's fees,

and costs and the issue of punitive damages, which are punishment, punishment damages, seemingly will be decided later on by the court. And this also comes after another trial in Texas where a jury awarded the plaintiffs there, almost $50 million to be paid out by Alex Jones. And he has another trial coming up. So the main question that we keep getting right after this happened is, how is he going to pay this? Can Alex Jones actually pay this out? Will the plaintiffs ever see any of of this money. Well, Professor Bruce Allen Markell, he's an Edward Avery Harriman Law School Professor of Bankruptcy Law and Practice at Northwestern University. Professor, good to see you again. And I think the last time we spoke it, it was either on Jones or it was on Amber Hurd,

but you are an expert in the bankruptcy field. It was on Amber Hurd. And yeah, these celebrity problems keep arising in bankruptcy. They do. So let me ask you the $965 million question. Is he going to be able to pay this out? Are the plaintiffs going to see any money? Two questions. He's never going to pay the $965. I mean, that's a practical issue. I don't think he can generate that much income over the rest of his life. Will the plaintiffs see anything as the more interesting question? That's going to be a question that has a lot of moving parts. For example, we know that Jones has various and different entities through which his revenue from his podcast and his show goes through. Not all are in bankruptcy. He stated publicly he will not file bankruptcy. But I'll give you an analogy.

Analogies to O.J. Simpson. O.J. Simpson may have been found innocent in a criminal court, but the parents of Ron Goldman, who was murdered at the time, actually got a $30 million civil judgment against O.J. Simpson in 1997. People, and with interest, OJ. now owes them over, or close to $97, $98 million. OJs may be paid, depending on how you read, he's maybe paid half a million of that over the time. And it's not been a voluntary payment. They seized his heisman and they sold it at auction. They can, you know, once you have a judgment, which is what the plaintiff here have or will have soon, then all sorts of summary collection procedures are appropriate.

Now, bankruptcy can stop that and can regularize it somewhat. But if Jones is unwilling to file bankruptcy, then he's just going to be like O.J., which is basically he will go to whatever jurisdiction has the best protection against judgment creditors seeking to take his property. You mean he's going to move there personally? Well, he actually lives in Texas, and Texas has some pretty strong protection. protections for debtors. For example, the Texas Constitution says that you can have an homestead in an unlimited amount. So if he like found some money and bought a, say, a $965 million

house, which in Texas, I don't know, maybe that is a house, he could shield all of his equity in a house from the plaintiffs. You know, once it's in the real estate in Texas and it's his homestead where he lives, I mean, there's a there's a case that people talk about in Texas where someone who owed a lot of money built a 40-story skyscraper, which normally would not be exempted, but he put a penthouse on it and he lived in it. And so he exempted the entire skyscraper. Texas law is very favorable to debtors with respect. That in Florida are to quite favorable jurisdictions. And the history is in the United States is that if debtors wish to squirrel away their assets and hide it, it's very difficult for creditors like

the tort claimants in Sandy Hook to ever get finally paid. And someone who has proved to be as pugnacious and obstreperous as Jones has, you know, there's every reason to believe that he will take advantage of every avenue he could to shield his assets. But it has to be legal, right? So here's the thing. I understand he could go to the appeals court. He could try to appeal these judgments. He could try to appeal the default judgments. It's his right to do that. The problem is if he goes to the point where he's secretly hiding assets. Can't the plaintiff's attorney immediately, immediately conduct an investigation and has the court get involved in terms of fraudulent asset transfers? When can they start, you know, garnishing his wages or things that he's earning?

How far can he push it out? Could something happen in the immediate future? As I understand it, the plaintiffs in the Texas case have already initiated the fraudulent transfer investigation. And you're absolutely right. I mean, people have until it's collected the right to, to, transfer their property to anybody they want. Lawyers use the fancy term, alienate their property, but you can sell your property anytime you want. But if you do it with the intent to hinder, delay, or defraud, and that's the statutory language.

Creditors, then it can be set aside. But you have to know where it's going. You have to know when it happens. And that's why, so initially, I'm not sure, I've kind of read a fair amount on this. I don't know how many entities Jones has had prior to this where he's changed revenue streams or changed assets. I mean, for example, some assets, just take it one, Social Security, are completely exempt from collection.

So even if someone owes a billion dollars, their Social Security doesn't get touched. Certain pension rights, depending, I mean, O.J. Simpson's living in his NFL pension because the pension's completely exempt from creditor attachment. Now, what assets he has now, yeah, there are businesses that are in the business of finding where the assets have been hid. If they're international businesses, they often hire ex-Masad agents to go find the assets. But it's a question of you've got to find it to know to set it aside. And someone like Jones who has basically saying in a show, I can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and keep them at bay for years and they'll never see a penny, I'm sure he is thinking about transferring his assets someplace else. And there are places where you can transfer the assets that no one can touch. For example, obscure, but it's used a lot.

I mean, the New York Times said to the extent of a couple trillion dollars, the Cook Islands, a former protector of New Zealand, exists in the Pacific Ocean. They don't recognize U.S. judgments. They don't recognize U.S. fraudulent transfers. If you can transfer your money there, the only person who can get it out would be Jones. And even if Jones is under order from court to turn over that money, the Cook Islands law says if you're compelled to transfer the money, we don't have to honor the request.

So lots of people, people are doing this all over. There's a really funny story out of Canada where someone tried to do this, where they actually tried to ship a FedEx box full of cash to the Cook Islands. What could go wrong? Yeah, right. You know, by the way, I know Alex Jones watched our live stream of the verdict going down. He might be listening to this sidebar and made actually listen to what you're saying and do this. I do want to ask you something real quick, though.

This is completely your excitement. I'm just reading about it, but bankruptcy mediation, do you think it would be in the benefit of the plaintiffs right now to work out some sort of resolution? And I guess that's another way of saying a settlement with Jones that they could work out a payment schedule. And maybe that's the most immediate way that they could see some sort of money. Is that realistic? How does that work? It's possible, but I would say not realistic because of the parties involved. I mean, I do mediation. I did mediations as a judge, I do mediations. Now, mediation's only work of both sides want to settle. And a good mediator finds a way to breach gulfs and understandings between the parties to get them

to understand that a settlement is always better than litigation. That's taken without any question whatsoever. My worst mediations have been when someone doesn't really want to settle. They've been told you go to mediation and so they'll just sit there. I've had, for example, student loan agencies kind of come to mediation, cross their arms, and go, we're not settling, we're just here because we were told to be here. And if Jones takes that attitude, it's not going to be, it's not going to be helpful. Also, on the plaintiff side, maybe they're not looking for money. Maybe they're looking for justice. Maybe they're looking for some type of showing that, yeah, I mean, we're not looking to make money off of this. We're looking, well, they will get some money and

and there do that money, but maybe they're looking for something more than that. Mediation doesn't give you that. And you put them in the hot seat and you keep them in the hot seat for this. I will ask you real quick, we have about a minute left. The question that I always see with this and which complicates it, if he was found liable for defamation and intentional wrongdoing, can't he not seek protection from the bankruptcy court? I thought that that, if you commit an intentional wrongdoing, the bankruptcy court is not going to be your savior. Nuanced answer. He can file bankruptcy. He gets the benefit of stay in all litigation, but the debt will not be discharged. So, I mean, it's like if someone

punches me in the nose, they can file bankruptcy and get rid of all their credit card debt, for example, but they can't get rid of the debt for which they caused me injury. And so, I mean, $965 million is probably a large amount of what Jones owes generally. And so it wouldn't help to discharge that. But he might file it just to stay the litigation so that he could work out a mediation. But everything I have read would indicate that's probably not what he wants to do. complicated, complicated, but so is this whole situation. Professor Markell, thank you so much for taking the time and explaining it. I think our audience will really appreciate what's going to come next in the Alex Jones saga. Appreciate it, Professor. Thank you for inviting me.

And thanks everybody for joining us here on Sidebar. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. Speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.