Law&Crime Sidebar - ‘I Wasn’t Sobbing’: Emotions Run High in Trial of School Shooter’s Mom

Episode Date: January 26, 2024

Jennifer Crumbley and her husband James are being tried separately in Michigan after their teenage son opened fire inside a high school in 2021, killing four students. The prosecution called out Jennifer Crumbley’s defense attorney, Shannon Smith, for her reaction to a video of the shooting played in court. Smith insisted her reaction was reasonable and restrained. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber breaks down the most heart wrenching moments from the first day of testimony.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Go to https://dealdash.com/LawCrime100 for 100 free bids with your first bid pack purchase now!HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Jennifer Crumbley didn't pull the trigger that day, but she is responsible for those deaths. Band-aids don't stop bullet holes. And that's what this case is about. It's about the prosecution attempting to put a Band-Aid on problems that can't be fixed with a band-aid. Trial is underway right now for the mother of a school shooter. Despite this being the very beginning, there's already a lot of drama in this courtroom. We are going to be breaking down the compelling moments so far from the Michigan case of Jennifer Crumbly.

Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Okay, so a very important trial is happening right now. Unprecedented is a word that I would use. Because this is the first time in the United States that a parent is on trial for involuntary manslaughter for their child's mass shooting. Yeah. Now, Jennifer and James Crumbly, they are the parents of the Oxford High School shooter who killed four students, injured seven others in November of 2021. It's happened out in Michigan, and we have now been seeing the rare move of charging both his parents with involuntary manslaughter for their alleged roles in their son's crime.

Jennifer, James Crumbly, they each face four counts of involuntary manslaughter. James Crumbly's trial scheduled to start in March, but according to prosecutors, James Crumbly bought a semi-automatic handgun for his son and then didn't secure it properly. The state also claims that the Crumblies knew their son was having all of these mental men's. health issues, but didn't get him health. Things like he was hearing voices and was experiencing delusions, hallucinations, and in fact, allegedly asked his parents to take him to a doctor for help, and instead, James told him allegedly to suck it up and his mom laughed. Now, days before the shooting, a teacher allegedly saw the eventual shooter researching

ammunition during class, and when the school contacted his parents, they allegedly didn't even respond. Prosecutors say that Jennifer Crumbly, though, sent a text to her son saying, quote, L.O.L. Laugh out loud. I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught. Then just hours before he would eventually open fire inside of his high school, a teacher allegedly saw a note on the shooter's desk that said disturbing things like, thoughts won't stop, help me, blood everywhere, along with the drawing of a gun and a bullet. The Crumblies were called to come to the school at that point. They told school officials that they would get the teen counseling,

but they did not take him home. So he returned to class, and soon after he started shooting. The shooter, who was 15 years old at the time of the massacre, he was sentenced to life without parole in December after he entered a guilty plea to 24 charges, including first-degree premeditated murder and terrorism causing death. Now, the defense attorneys for the Crumbly said hope to avoid a trial altogether, even appealing this issue to the Michigan Supreme Court,

but the court issued the following ruling, saying, Quote, an order of the court, the application for leave to appeal the March 23, 2023 judgment of the Court of Appeals is considered and it is denied because we are not persuaded that the question presented should be reviewed by this court. So that means the trials for both Jennifer and James Crumbly will move forward with Jennifer up first. James's trial, as I said, is in March. Okay.

So let me explain, if I haven't explained already, why this is so unprecedented. The idea here is that Jennifer, we're going to stick with her trial because she's up first, that she was a cause of the shooting, that she knew there was a risk, it was foreseeable this shooting could have happened, and she disregarded it. She acted with gross negligence. Now you might be saying, that's impossible to find someone guilty of manslaughter given these circumstances.

I would say not so fast. Why do I say that? Because we covered another case on law and crime. It was out of Massachusetts where a young woman named Michelle Carter was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter for the death of her boyfriend, who a judge determined encouraged him to commit suicide. after she pressured him to do so over the phone, through text, through phone call. She wasn't even there.

So this idea of expanding the use of involuntary manslaughter to unique situations, it's not that foreign. But okay, take a look at the opening statements from day one. This is the opportunity for each side to lay out the case. Opening statements were delivered on Thursday. And here is prosecutor Mark Heist. I want to introduce you to Anna St. Giuliana. Madison Baldwin, Tate Muir, and Justin Schilling. They died on November the 30th of the 2021.

They weren't in a car crash. They weren't sick. They were murdered in an act of terror committed by Jennifer Crumley's 15-year-old son. Jennifer Crumbley didn't pull the trigger that day, but she is responsible for those deaths. These kids were gunned down inside Oxford High School with this gun. It's a six-hour, nine-millimeter handgun, purchased four days before the shooting by James Crumbling, Jennifer's husband and father, the school shooter.

This was a purchase celebrated by Jennifer on Instagram. These are her works. This is her post. Mom and Sunday testing out his new Christmas present. My first time shooting a 9mm, I hit the Bullseye. i hit the bull's eye the evidence will prove that by the time this gun was bought the school shooter was in a downward spiral that had begun months before the evidence will also show you that jennifer crumbly was aware of that despite her knowledge of his deteriorating mental crisis despite her knowledge of his growing social isolation despite the fact that is he

legal for a 15-year-old to walk into a gun store and walk out with a handgun by himself, this gun was gifted. You will also learn that despite all of that background, this firearm was not secured in a way to prevent her son from getting access to it. The evidence will also prove to you that even with all of that, on November the 30th, Jennifer crumbling was still given the opportunity to prevent these murders from ever happening. Instead, she chose to do nothing. Now, the evidence will show you that she didn't pull the trigger, but she's responsible. But there is no claim that she gifted that fire on her son, knowing he was

going to commit the attack. There's no claim that she wanted him to commit the attack. So how can she be held responsible when her son pulled the trigger? And the answer is, She's not charged with murder. She's charged with involuntary manslaughter. You see, murder is an intentional killing. Involuntary manslaughter, by definition, is unintentional. It's rooted in negligence. That's what this case is about.

It's about Jennifer Crembley's willful disregard of the danger that she knew of. That's why we're here. We're not here to talk about good parenting or bad parenting. It's not illegal to be a bad parent. ain't legal to be a bad parent we're not here to put restrictions on gun owners that's not our job that's not your job that's for lawmakers we're not here to talk about who else might be culpable or who else you think shared some blame you

will learn about the media November the 30th you may not like the fact that neither the school counselor or the dean of students searched school shooters back back that's okay that's okay because that does not mitigate mitigate Jennifer Crumbley's culpability. You're going to learn a whole lot about James Crumbley and their son. But James, he's not on trial today. He has another trial in front of another jury. Their son, his case is over.

He's already been charged and convicted in sentence for terrorism causing death and first degree murder. Today is Jennifer's turn to stay in trial. And you will evaluate the evidence as it pertains to her in her own. So it's not that she intended for the to happen. It's that she disregarded a foreseeable and substantial risk. She created an environment for this to happen. That's the argument. Again, pretty unique, pretty novel, but it could work. And I'll say if you're going to charge a parent with involuntary manslaughter, these are the kinds of facts.

This is the kind of case that you need. But that is one side, right? It was the defense's turn to counter what the prosecutor just said and try to tell their side of the story. Here's attorney Shannon Smith, who started off her opening, with maybe kind of an odd statement. On my way to court today, I blasted Taylor Swift to warm up my voice and calm my nerves. And there was a line in one of her songs that summarized what this case is about. Band-Aids don't stop bullet holes. And that's what this case is about. It's about the prosecution attempting to put a band-aid on problems that can't be fixed with a band-aid.

The prosecution has charged Jennifer Crumbly with involuntary manslaughter in an effort to make the community feel better, in an effort to make people feel like someone is being held responsible, in an effort to send a message to gun owners, and none of those problems will be solved by charging Jennifer Crumbly with involuntary manslaughter. It's the same effect as when your child comes to you with a boo-boo and you give them a band-aid that they put on, that doesn't take away the pain, and can't undo what's happened to them. And in this case, A Band-Aid will never bring back the lives that were lost by Hannah, Justin, Tate, and Madison Baldwin. And the evidence in this case is absolutely horrific.

Much of the evidence is going to make you sick and disgusted and scare you, traumatize you and quite frankly there's no reason the evidence needs to be shown mrs crumbly myself everyone in this courtroom agrees that on november 30th 2021 the worst possible thing happened some killer swift lyrics to start off with look not the weirdest thing i've heard remember in young thug the prosecutor used references from the jungle book to start off her opening. Anyway, the idea here is that we need to hold someone accountable, right? Society demands it, let's hold Jennifer Crumbly, but that's not right. Let's continue on with the defense's opening statement. Prior to November 30th, Jennifer Crumbley was the mother to a 15-year-old

son, and she did not have it on her radar in any way that there was any mental disturbance that her son would ever take a gun into a school that her son would ever shoot people. The evidence at trial is going to show you that Jennifer Crumbly did the best she could as a mother to a child who grew up into a teenager and had no way to know what was going to happen. You will hear testimony that the school never notified Mrs. Crumbly that the shooter was having a, quote, rough time when he spoke to the school counselor. You will hear testimony that the school never notified Ms. Crumbley that previous work found in the shooter's files showed that it leaned. a little bit towards the violence side when you evaluate that evidence and know what she knew and what she didn't know and learn the context behind the slivers of evidence this prosecution's

presenting you will see that this was absolutely not foreseeable this was absolutely not expected and i am going to ask that you find jennifer crumbly not guilty of involuntary manslaughter So you can start to see, A, she didn't know what was going on with her son, and B, put the blame on others like the school. Jennifer Crumbly is actually starting to shift responsibility to James, not surprisingly, since their trials were severed, separated, arguably, for this reason. But the idea, well, James bought the gun, not Jennifer. James maintained the guns in his house, not Jennifer, it was his job. There even reports that Jennifer was blaming her husband in jailhouse communications. But okay, so you can see where both sides are going to take this during this trial.

Okay, we're going to get back to this case in just a minute, but listen, although we're talking about some very heavy subject matter right now and not to take away from that in any way, I do want to just thank one of our great partners and sponsors here on Sidebar who helps support this show, Deal Dash. Now, Deal Dash is very cool. Why? So Deal Dash is an auction website. It's been around for 14 years, and they have some awesome deals, these sorts. super exciting auctions. The way it works is you buy bids and then you bid on things that start at $0. Everything from the site starts at $0. So then they gave me actually $100 to start out with, which comes out to $770. Not going to lie.

I have my eye right now on this red ATV that's going for pretty cheap. I just don't know what I would do with that in New York City, but I guess that's besides the point. But okay, you might be saying what's the catch, right? Well, you're going to pay up front to bid. So, for instance, here, after you sign up, they ask you to buy 400 bids for 30 bucks, which means you can bid 400 times in any of their auctions. But they have some seriously quality items here.

I mean, they have these watches. They have copies of Spider-Man 2, the video game. That's awesome. I'm a big superhero guy. I mean, they even have a 2023 Lincoln Aviator for under $18,000. Now, as Deal Dash for everyone, no, some of the auctions can take hours or even days on end. so you really need to invest the time for bidding. But if you like bidding on auctions and you've got time in your hands to figure out how it works,

you can get some pretty sweet deals. So check out deal dash.com when you sign up, use my promo code Law Crime 100, and you get 100 extra free bids on your first bid pack purchased. And if you don't win an auction using these bids or you don't like it for any reason, contact DealDash. You're going to get your money back. No questions asked on your first bid pack purchase. So the downside is really.

limited. It's worth a try. So do me a favor. Check out deal dash.com slash law crime 100. But once opening statements wrapped up, the prosecution called its first witnesses. Let's start with Molly Darnell. Molly Darnell is a teacher at Oxford High School and one of the seven people who was shot. She testified that she heard a commotion in the hallway, then three loud pops and slamming doors. That's when the principal came over the loudspeaker and announced a lockdown. Now, according to Darnell's testimony, the shooter didn't hesitate the fire at her. I lock eyes with him,

and I instantly see that movement. And I jumped to the side. What happened after you jumped to the side? As I jump. And was the night, did you ever get the night lock installed at that? The night lock is not installed at this point. Okay. So when I move, I kind of jump and turn my body this way at the same time.

Okay, for the record, you're motioning, turning your shoulders to the right. To the right. And I feel like my left shoulder moves back a bit, and I feel a burn like hot water had stung me. Where did you feel that? In my arm. Which arm? In my left arm. Okay.

and you're pointing to your right below your shoulder yeah and are you are you standing up are you sitting down are you i'm standing up at this point in time um i feel that hot that hot burn go through my arm um and i turn back there was a window in the back of my room that leads out to the courtyard and i see a bullet hole i put the tourniquet on And it, I'm in my head, I'm thinking, okay, what, what do I do next? What's like the next move here? And my daughter taxes me. She didn't go to Oxford High School, but she went to a neighboring school district.

And they had heard through social media that there was a shooting at Oxford High School. and so she sent me in a message and she just said, Mom, are you okay? And I responded to her that I love you. I'm sheltered in place, and I'm fine. You didn't tell her I was shot at home. It's pretty harrowing to hear, but also from a legal point of view,

it's important to hear because the prosecutor, has to prove that a shooting took place, right? That's fundamental. A shooting took place. People died. People were injured. You need to establish that before you even get into who's responsible. The next person to testify was Christy Gibson Marshall, an assistant principal at Oxford High. She testified that she heard shots and actually moved toward them to try to make sure everybody was okay. She encountered one of the victims who lost his life, Kate Muir, laying on the ground in a hallway, that's when she encountered a shooter. Did you say anything to him?

When he got close enough to me that I could, when we were sharing the hallway, so he was kind of walking down the center and I was kind of over to the side. So that's, we're probably what, three feet apart. I asked him if he's okay. It just didn't seem right that it would be him. So I need to back up just a little bit. When you saw, you didn't know who it was at first, a student down the hallway, you said he had lowered his arm?

I knew it was a shooter when he was down the hallway. Okay. Could you see if he was holding anything? I could see a gun. At that point, were you, was he walking towards you or away from you? He's walking towards me. It was when I realized it was Ethan that I didn't think he could possibly be a shooter as what happened. the shooter is what happened i think i know i said i knew it was a shooter down there because i could see

i can rationalize that that is a gun he is putting that gun down he just shot something you said you said something to him yeah i it seems so odd that it was him so i said buddy are you okay what's going on and when he didn't respond to me and he looked away that's when i know it's him that he was the shooter. Did he point the gun at you? He did not. What did you do at that point? I got on the walkie, and I told, I told my team that I have eyes on a shooter and I have a victim.

And prosecutors showed surveillance video of Gibson Maxwell in that hallway with the shooter. Everybody in the courtroom was pretty emotional from Gibson Maxwell to the defendant, to her attorney, to even the jurors, is according to people in the courtroom. Defense attorney Shannon Smith even appeared to sob during some of the testimony, and that was addressed when the jury was out of the room by the prosecution. This court upon the defense's request instructed the prosecutors not to show emotion. You instructed the prosecutors to tell our witnesses not to show emotion. And you instructed us to tell that our victims.

I don't think that's actually what I said. i understand the ruling your honor i do you're concerned about influence of the jury i i have i take no issue with it but it was a difficult thing it's difficult and we're doing it and then to have not just the defendant her lawyer sit there sobbing so that i did not sob i just want to finish your honor i just want to finish i i just i think if if that is the instruction we are trying really hard to respect the court's instruction because i understand the reason for it okay i didn't tell people not to show emotion i some of that is involuntary um but there there have been times in this courtroom during trials when people will show facial expressions or well or you know

things like that or make comments i understand this is a very emotional situation for everyone here right i if someone was audibly sobbing in the the audience i would hope that they would exit i and as you said you know the reason for it i didn't tell anybody not to show emotion i i guess some emotion is involuntary so i i guess i'm asking what you're asking of me i just i think it just it should apply to both both sides daughter first of all i was not sobbing and this is horrific this is her i've never seen this before it's horrific that's why we asked the court now to play it i this is horrific i don't know how the cross made this she's watched it a hundred times i've had it you've had this video

for two over two years i don't know i don't have this video i have to go to their office to watch it i you've seen it no i i haven't because it's not necessary it's not relevant to my client's case we already litigated this but we're we're doing our best we were not sobbing or making a scene in any way all my eye makeup still on i checked my camera i'm not gonna i'm not i'm not having i need to run to the bathroom i need a break okay okay we're having a break that's what we're doing and you got to keep your voices down because i'm sorry the the walls are cardboard in here so i'm sorry okay everyone here is human right everyone here is human i understand that i just i'm striving really hard to give both sides of fair trial and if if people don't at

least try to check themselves to exit if it's that excruciating which I know it is I you know I'm not a robot I'm trying to keep myself from sobbing I'll do it at six o'clock tonight okay I appreciate that your honor that's all I'm okay we don't have the option to leave the court we're trying our best we're We're trying. I promise you we're trying our last. All right. Thank you. Everybody needs to take a deep breath. Look, definitely, an emotional case for everybody involved here.

And as you saw, there was a back and forth about whether defense counsel had seen that video beforehand. So seeing it, hearing it for the first time, it's kind of understandable. But look, a jury of 12 will decide Jennifer Crumbley's fate. There are five alternates there as well in case any of the jurors have to leave or are dismissed for any reason. and out of the 17 total people picked for the jury, there are 10 women, seven men.

Their decision would ultimately be historic. Again, this is the first time in history that a parent has been charged with manslaughter in connection with a mass shooting. Trumbly faces up to 15 years in prison if she's convicted. The trial is expected to last a few weeks, and we are going to be keeping a close eye on it and bring you the most important updates as they develop.

That's all we have for you here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time.