Law&Crime Sidebar - Judge Locks Up Catholic School Counselor for Having Sex with Student

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Emily Nutley, 43, told an Ohio judge this week that she believes losing her family, job, teaching license, and reputation is punishment enough for having sex with a student. Despite her appeal for leniency, the judge handed down a prison sentence instead of probation. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber reacts to the courtroom drama with criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Sarena Townsend.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: If you received Depo-Provera birth control shots and were later diagnosed with a brain or spinal tumor called meningioma, you may be eligible for a lawsuit. Visit https://forthepeople.com/lcdepo to start a claim now! HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger, Christina O'Shea & Jay CruzScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I really did not want to have sex with her, but she insisted she would not leave me alone. I wish more than anything I could go back in time and undo the choices I made and the boundaries that I allowed to be violated. Cameras caught the moment a Catholic high school employee found out she's going to prison for engaging in sex. with a teenage boy in her office. We're going to be taking a look at what mother of three, Emily Nutley, as well as her victim, had to say in court as the judge officially sentenced her to years

behind bars. Welcome to Sidebar. Presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Hey, everybody. This is a law and crime legal alert. If you receive Deppro-Provera birth control shots and were later diagnosed with a brain or spinal tumor called meningioma, you may be eligible for a lawsuit.

That's right. Morgan and Morgan is investigating claims that patients weren't properly warned about this risk. It's free to check, just takes a few minutes, and you don't pay unless they win. So scan the QR code on screen, click the link below, or head over to 4thepeople.com slash LC Depot to see if you qualify. Let's talk about 43-year-old Emily Nutley. She was the director of academic services at a private all-boys Catholic school in Cincinnati, Ohio. and that is when she was arrested last year. She ran a program at St. Xavier High School, also called St. X, that was supposed to help students who were struggling academically.

But instead, officials say, she used that program, that position, to prey on vulnerable teens. In April, Nutley entered a guilty plea to two counts of sexual battery for having sex with a 17-year-old. According to prosecutors, the teen boy met Nutley, was married with three children at the time, by the way. in 2023 through the school's learning center. In documents that were filed ahead of Nutley's sentencing, the prosecution laid out a timeline of Nutley's grooming campaign. Assistant prosecutor Elise Dieter said that Nutley was the aggressor, sending nearly constant text messages to the teen,

talking about everything from his grades to the sports he was playing. And eventually, Nutley kissed the student and started sending him explicit photos. Prosecutors say she sent at least nine nude photos, text messages that said things like, what would be wild is that when the whole school is at mass, I gave you the best bleep of your life in my office. Now, the sexual relationship reportedly took place between November and December of 2023, with Nutley and the student reportedly having sex in her office at the learning center, as well as a local park.

Nutley apparently gave the student special treatment as well as gifts and food and $100 allowance every month. And the answers, by the way, to a school tax. in advance. Now, the Cincinnati Inquirer reported that by 2024, the student wanted out of this relationship and he wanted to be released from getting help at the Learning Center. And the following fall, the teens' grades had plummeted and he was failing three classes. One teacher noted that he was not the same person that he had been the previous year. And rumors that Nutley and the student had been having sex or sexual relations spread around the school. This is

according to the inquire. And eventually, it made its way to the principal. So an official investigation got underway when the victim went to school administrators and told them what had been going on. Nutley, she was fired. She was arrested. She was charged with sexual battery. That's the backstory. That's the backstory. So to talk about what was said during her sentencing this week, as well as what her punishment will be, I want to bring in criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Serena Townsend. Serena, thank you so much for coming here on sidebar. It's great to see you. Thank you so much for having me. Serena, she decided to accept responsibility, enter a guilty plea. Does that by itself indicate she's remorseful or feels bad about what she did

and will play what she had to say in court? Or is this just a situation, I got no defense. I got nothing to defend myself with a trial. Truthfully, just the entering of a guilty plea in and of itself does not necessarily mean that she actually is remorse. To be honest, it sounds like they had a plethora of evidence, solid proof that she did what she was accused of doing. And it was in her best interest, frankly, to take a plea. I am sure that, you know, by pleading guilty, she's going to have some favor to, you know, thrown her way, that she's going to face less time of incarceration than she would if she had gone to trial and lost. So I don't think it necessarily means she felt bad. What would have been a defense at trial?

Well, consent is not a defense because the age is the age. I mean, you cannot have a sexual relationship with an underage child. So that's out. Misidentification is out, right? Everybody says she has, the prosecution had text messages, the pictures. That's out. I mean, there's really not much you could do to defend this horrible, horrible act. So, again, I do think that this plea deal was in her best interest.

Again, before we go to what happened in court, when you hear this story, does it play out like other cases you've heard? Is it like textbook grooming? Is it textbook abuse? Or is this one a little different? I've seen way too much of this in my career, Jesse, and also in watching your show. This is pretty textbook. That doesn't mean that it's less horrifying just because we've seen it before. But this just plays the same rulebook as any other person in this type of situation, taking

advantage of a vulnerable person. We see it over and over again. We see somebody in a place of power, abuse that power in a hideous way against people who are vulnerable. They start slow. They start with flirtations. They kind of test the waters. They see she probably didn't just do it with him.

She probably saw, you know, who might be. receptive, who she could take advantage of more than others. And then slowly she built the trust and then of course got what she wanted. Well, let's talk about sentencing. Okay. So during sentencing, Nutley's lawyer said the implication in pretrial reports that his client wasn't sorry for what she did, that was unacceptable. The state's assertion is that there's a lack of remorse. That's contradicted by every therapist report. Emily's own words. She submitted a letter to the court that was attached to the sentencing memorandum she would also like to make a statement to the court this afternoon and the words of her family and friends you saw in the sentencing memorandum multiple letters that were submitted on her behalf what she lacks your honor is deflection she takes full responsibility for her actions without excuses and without shifting blame she openly acknowledges the harm she caused and confronts it head on rather than minimizing her conduct she has committed herself to meaningful change through consistent and ongoing therapy.

Her response is not one of avoidance, Your Honor, but of reflection, growth, and a sincere effort to make amends. The state also cites to this court a pretrial misstep trying to deflect against the fact that Ms. Nutley has no prior criminal history. This pretrial misstep was her attempting to drop off Christmas gifts to staff at St. X. Emily contacted me to see if that would be acceptable. I spoke with the prosecutor's office, and it was determined that, in fact, it was not.

acceptable. That was stopped. The gifts never got delivered. The issue was brought to the court's attention. It was addressed and there have been no violation since then. That moment is not evidence of defiance, Your Honor. It was an isolated lapse by a woman in an emotional crisis who's since shown full compliance. Now the defense attorney said that he believed probation would be the best option for sentencing. Take a look. Emily's already been subjected to extraordinary and irreversible consequences. She has lost her career. She has lost her license she has lost her marriage and her place in the community she will live under are those things I can consider under the sentencing factors I believe that

you can she's also going to be a tier three registrant for life meaning that she has to register every 90 days for the rest of her life this is real punishment it's immediate it's ongoing and it's lifelong she's been assessed by multiple experts your honor including the court clinic and the Hamilton County Probation Department and deemed to be a low risk to re-offend. In fact, her risk assessment was so low it needed to be manually adjusted up just to qualify her for supervised probation instead of unsupervised probation. This is an emotional case for everyone involved. But the facts and information support a sentence of probation. Prison will not increase public safety. Serena, what's your reaction to the defense's arguments there?

look you know you have to advocate zealously for your client and he's doing a nice job uh i i think but i don't know how persuasive it's going to be i don't know that a judge is going to take what he's saying um into account to the extent that she would reduce the potential sentence all the way down to probation it is possible i have seen cases that you know are similar to this where probation was the end result in cases like that it's usually because the person doesn't have a prior record. They have shown, you know, remorse and maybe the complainant is willing. You know, a lot of times a judge wants to know how the family feels, how the actual victim feels. And they do take that into consideration when determining the appropriate sentence,

too. So, you know, I think he's doing what he needed to do. Mental health might not have been a actual defense to this. How much of a factor is it in sentencing? Assuming, by the way, that we're dealing with a legitimate mental health issue, as he seems to be suggesting. Right. I think a judge would have to be very convinced that there was a real mental health issue that led to this. I don't know that the evidence in this case really supports that. It does seem to lean towards she knew exactly what she was doing and maybe she's sorry she got caught, but it didn't seem like mental issues were really what was driving this. Of course, like we were talking about earlier, what could possibly be.

the defense here. Again, there's really not much you can go with. So I'm not necessarily surprised that her attorney is trying to mitigate things by saying there was a mental illness here. Well, as I alluded to, Nutley herself was given the opportunity to speak to the court during this sentencing. And here's what she had to say. Your Honor, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak. I stand before you today overwhelmed with shame, guilt, and regret. There is no excuse for what I did and I will not try to offer one. I crossed a boundary that never should have been crossed and I violated the trust of someone who needed to be protected and respected. I live every day with a heavy burden of knowing that I

caused that harm. I see clearly now that the way that I acted which is clearly out of line not only with the law but with the human basic the basic human decency that I've lived my whole life trying to live by. I carry that truth with me constantly and it makes me sick. I think every day about the impact of my actions, not just on the victim, but on his family, his friends, and the entire Sanex community. In addition to losing my job, the license to do what I love, and being registered as a lifelong sex offender, I've lost my husband, my home, my family, my friends, and my reputation in the community that I love. I'm a mother of three children, and I have to look at them knowing that I've failed them in the most serious way imaginable. Instead of being viewed as their role model, I have caused harm and embarrassment.

I will never stop feeling the weight of that and will spend every day to attempt to rebuild those relationships. I'm asking for the opportunity to prove myself on probation, where I can continue rehabilitation instead of incarceration. I do not take that lightly, and the lifelong consequences of my actions are felt every day. I will continue my tier treatment program that I'm already an active participant, and i'm committed to take every step required of me to serve our community not because it's mandated but because i owe it to the court to the person that i've hurt and to myself i'm engaging with professionals who are helping me understand why i made these choices and how to take responsibility for every part of them i wish more than anything i could go back in time and undo the choices

i made and the boundaries that i allowed to be violated i always got everyone else the help that they needed but failed to look in the mirror when I was at my own lowest point. I wish that I'd ask for help sooner. I'm not asking for forgiveness because I've not earned it. I know that people may just see me as my worst mistake, and maybe that's what I deserve, but I will spend the rest of my life trying to make amends through my actions. Thank you, Your Honor.

Serena, a couple of questions here. What stands out to you about that statement? The one thing that really stood out to me, that was problematic in her statement, because I thought overall was well drafted, perhaps by her attorneys, was that she says that she wished she had asked for help sooner.

She never did ask for help. That's what stood out to me, is she tried to rely on that and, you know, say, you know, I know that I needed help and I should have just asked for it sooner. I mean, she's only going to seek this treatment after she was caught, after she kind of was confronted

with all of the evidence that they had against her. So it doesn't necessarily feel genuine. Other than that, you know, I do feel like it was a well-written statement. It was well-stated. And she has definitely suffered consequences. I'm not going to lie. I mean, losing, she's lost everything. So she certainly has already received some of that already. Does it actually factor into the judge's decision? Well, you know, I don't know that it does because you could you could really argue that most defendants lose a lot when they're found guilty. Yes, this is a specific situation wherein a sex crime, you also have to register as a sex offender, which really does kind

of top the worst of the worst types of punishments that you could endure to have to have, you know, be embarrassed that way. But every sex offender, everybody who's convicted of a sex crime or most felony sex crimes at least has to register. So I don't think that a judge is going to say, oh, you know what? You know, you have to suffer by registering as sex offender. You've lost your husband. Those are choices that you made. I don't know that a judge really takes it into consideration because it's true of most people who make bad decisions. Is it bad that she was reading and not just saying, you know, memorized or saying from her heart? That's a good question. I think that some people are a lot more comfortable speaking without reading. But that's a very

nerve-wracking situation to be in. I mean, you're basically begging for your life. And I don't think it's necessarily uncommon for people to read. I think it would have struck worse if she was reading it in kind of a robotic way. I felt like she was able to convey some emotion, despite the fact that she was reading words off of a piece of paper. So I'm not completely offended the fact that she read it. Well, she wasn't the only one who had a statement. So the victim was also given a chance to give an impact statement. And he chose to have the assistant prosecutor read it aloud for the court. Let's watch. The most important question here today, the victim in this case, who is president in the courtroom, he's prepared this statement for me to read. Judge Branch, thank you for

listening to me and for reading all of my family's letters. This entire situation altered my high school experience and altered my life. It left me confused, lacking self-work and depressed. When the abuse started, I didn't realize how I was being taken advantage of. I didn't know what grooming was until I was sitting in class after it had happened

and realized that's what she did to me. I really did not want to have sex with her, but she insisted. She would not leave me alone. She told me she would kill herself when I tried to end it. I didn't know how to get out of the situation. I finally decided that I didn't want her to do this to anyone else.

I told the truth. What transpired after was even worse, the social media, constant harassment and pestering, even this past weekend at my state championship, the other team's student section yelled, Where's your teacher, and her name through the whole game? I can't get away from this. away from this. I have a hard time trusting people, especially authority figures. Judge Branch,

I am respectfully asking that she be given the maximum penalty being 10 years. Thank you. You know, Serena, it's not every day that we cover these cases. We actually hear the words from the victim, right? And to hear that, you kind of get a sense of what the impact is. A hundred percent. In contrast with her statement, this statement actually sounds like, like he wrote it. You know, it doesn't sound like somebody penned it for him. It sounded like his words, which made it even more genuine. And it's true, you know, you're a kid.

And the most important thing to you in that very moment and in your life are these, you know, games that you play in and your reputation amongst your peers. And it really does take a toll on somebody. It's no, it's not like it ends when the actual abuse ends. It continues, it persists. And he's going to be traumatized for quite some time. So, you know, as we mentioned earlier, the decision by the judge on how to sentence her is going to somewhat be based on what the complainant wants to see happen here and you hear what he wants.

You hear that he does want her punished and that he did feel very much taken advantage of. And it wasn't just his statement. The victim's mother and father also gave statements. Now, to be clear, for their privacy, the camera remained pointed at the defense. just keep that in mind as we listen to this no one would ever force a victim of sexual assault to return to the scene of the assault day after day causing the trauma response to reactivate in their brain however due to the defendant's actions that's exactly what our son has been forced to do just to be able to graduate through high school he used to be a child who believed the best

in everyone sadly now he constantly questioned people's motives a brain affected by trauma has changed forever, and this will always be something that he will have to live with. In the case of his athletic career, this crime has absolutely destroyed his confidence in himself and his confidence to leave our home, live independently, and play sports in college. What should have been a junior and senior year of joy and playing sports he loves with his friends has turned into two years of hell and shame, being talked about online and at school for people who had no idea of the pain and suffering he was going through. This crime was ruined who our son was as a person and an athlete due to the constant torment he was going through

from other students, teachers, and strangers. I'm thankful that our son was brave enough to be willing to tell the truth and suffer all the shame and harassment in order to stop her from victimizing even more additional children in the future. And my job as a daddy, ever since the day that I found out that I was having my first child was that they will never have to face the demons that I've already fought. So we sought out the best places for him, whether it would be sport or academics,

and that being same thing for high school. And we really thought that we had found the culture and community where he would be safe. Where the monsters didn't live. I didn't have to fight the monsters because I had monster and fighters with me. Because of the anger, the hurt, anguish that my child has gone through has destroyed my relationship with my son and there's

nothing more sacred to me than the love of the father for his son and the son's love for his father. I have three words that we have been so tight all of our lives up to this moment. And when that happened to shadow everything, that's not something that you can get back. Serena, you talk about the impact, you talk about the harm that reverberates, not just for the vix. but the relationship he has with his parents, that was very, very compelling. It was compelling indeed. And, you know, we may not realize it

until we hear these kinds of statements just how much it affects not just the survivor, but of his family, his friends. It affects a lot of people, and they are victims, too, in a way. You heard the mother talk about things that maybe we didn't need to worry about 25 or 30 years ago.

which is social media. I mean, there's this constant reminder and publication, I guess, of this incident that didn't exist before social media was so big. And so he has to live with this and he's faced with this not only in his own community and when he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night, but also across the country in the world because it's just, it's reported and it's repeated all over again online. And the prosecutor also made arguments to the judge, encouraging the judge to send a message and impose the maximum sentence allowable under the law.

The defendant stole the victim's innocence. This is the fact that I contemplated growing up because I did not want to embarrass the victim. Not that he should be embarrassed, but losing your virginity is supposed to be special with someone you love by a sacred act. and Nutley took that from the victim. She stole it. The fact that the defendant blamed the victim in this case is astounding to the state.

I know the court read my own victim, so it's aware of my disdain, but I have to say it is purely cruel to abuse a child and then act as if it was their fault. This victim feels extreme guilt. He has been drugging the media, harassed. He is hoarding, and he will be for a long time. His relationships now are all going to be skewed by the way she changed his brain.

He will put these painful memories on a metaphorical shelf and hopes to never remember again that they will come crashing down on him at some point without his doing because of what she did. His mental health is at risk. And for all the men and media in the room think, boy, this female prosecutor doesn't think this kid is fine. He's a legend. He's slept with a hot teacher. He's the man.

They should be ashamed of themselves. If you're thinking that, I guarantee you haven't been in this position because you'd feel awful for the victim. You'd know the long-term effects of this, and your archaic reaction is what makes the victim feel even more alone, even more depressed, even more confused. On Facebook last night, there was an article posted with a comment section. Some of these comments were truly concerned. I saw one comment that said, arrest the kid, and another, where were teachers like this when I was in high school?

I saw another saying, she'll get probation while a man would get years in prison. They were unbelievable. This is a victim. Little girl or boy, male or female defendant, it does not matter. Someone, and possibly, Your Honor, can put a stop to this rhetoric.

Serena, a lot of things there. First of all, in your experience, does it matter? Does the gender matter whether or not the perpetrator is a male or female? educator or teacher, do they get disproportionate sentences? And number two, it's exactly verbatim to what Chris Hansen, who I have on all the time, he says, you know, they always think this is a young boy's fantasy, right? The damage has to be illustrated, has to be articulated, you're hearing

it from the victim, you're hearing it from the family members, you're hearing it from the prosecutor. This is not a harmless crime. It's not a harmless crime at all. When I was a sex crimes prosecutor, I prosecuted both men and women for this exact crime, including a female teacher against a 17-year-old boy. So these things do happen, and we in society need to understand and appreciate that the male victims are just as much a victim as the female victims who are, you know, groomed and abused. Unfortunately, to answer your first question of whether it's supposed to be different based on the gender, it's not supposed to be. The law treats everybody, the same technically, but what we see with social perspective and people's opinions and society

in general is, yeah, he should be high-fiving his friends down the hall. He's the man, like the prosecutor said, you know, and he just got to sleep with a hot teacher good for him. Absolutely not. There is severe trauma that happens as a result of these acts, and we cannot underestimate that. With respect to sentencing, I do see sometimes that there is disproportionate sentencing. Whether it's done on purpose or not, I do think that, you know, subconsciously, sometimes women get away with more than men do in these scenarios. During her presentation, the prosecutor also showed these graphic text messages and an explicit photo of Nutley on this large screen in the courtroom. The information that was put up in this slideshow today was salacious. It was there to invoke a reaction, and it is the reason we did not have a trial.

Ms. Nutley stepped forward and took responsibility for her actions, but that's not good enough for the government. They had to put all that crap up on the board so that all of these cameras can see it and so that this court can get inflamed and say she's going to prison. Well, Serena, it does kind of give you an idea of what a trial would have looked like and what the jury would have seen. But again, for what it's worth, our cameras didn't show those images, by the way. But is it going too far or is it fair? It was evidence. Yeah, you could make the argument either way. I think the prosecution probably did want to, you know, jab it a little bit extra and show something that might not have been necessary to show. But at the same time, it does counteract the defense argument that she, you know, didn't really do much harm or that she was remorseful. I mean, it is, you could argue that the prosecutor had every right to show the judge exactly what evidence they were dealing with, because let's be honest, the judge has to make a decision here with respect to the punishment that this woman

is going to face. So yeah, technically they could have done it. Did they have to do it? Maybe not. But I understand why they chose to. Well, what happened? In the end, the judge seemed to split the difference, giving far less than the family and the prosecution and hope for, but way more than Nutley wanted. Take a look. But really, this final factor that I look at is remorse. And I I'm so looking forward to you speaking today because I really wanted you to tell me that you were remorseful. And I don't want you to use those words. I don't care if you don't say the word apology. But what I was looking for was for you to say that you acknowledge the harm that you cause this young man and pretty much ruined.

the rest of this high school career. I didn't see it. I didn't hear it. I don't think, I don't even know if you read the reports from his family, the letters from his family. But what I learned from reading that is that your behavior destroyed his confidence in himself, his education, this college career,

his scholarships for sports, his relationships, he feels guilty, he feels shame, and he's the victim. You're now, I mean, hear or see anything that you acknowledge about it. It's not that you caused him the same trauma you suffered as a child of sex abuse. You knew what this would do to him. First, I want to address the family, his ask, on the maximum prison term, which is five years on count one, five years on count five, to be served consecutively, I do find I could make those consecutive findings, which means the possible maximum sentence is 10 years.

And I considered that, and no one addressed the consecutive findings and any of their materials as dates not asking for consecutive, but I looked it up and I thought about it, and I've considered it. But when I balance everything, I do not think a 10-year prison term is the just term here. And you don't have to agree with me, but I just want you to know I did consider it seriously. And I did think about the officers 18 months because I thought that was an interesting number, and I appreciate today that you've adjusted that number. And I have looked at other cases. My staff looked up other cases. I think the median average was, the median and the average was three years, like cases like this. And I did consider probation.

I think talked to lawyers who practice in this courthouse. I love probation. I have a 90% success rate of the 90% of the people I've put on probation in the last four years have not gone to prison. I find that to be a success. But in this situation, I believe that the proper sentence is three years in prison on count one, three years on count five to be served at the same time for an aggregate sentence of three years in prison. The parole board must put you on a period of post-release control of five years after you get out of prison.

And these sentences, and you are also subject to tier three sex offender reporting restrictions, which I'll go over in just a moment. All right, so Nutley, who had been out on a 30, thousand dollar bond was immediately taken into custody and serene i got to say i cover verdicts all the time sometimes you can't even get a read on a defendant they're emotionless her on her eyes her face

it almost told the whole story she seemed to be shocked that the judge didn't agree with her right she probably thought she was being remorseful the judge didn't seem to be that way and also the idea of when she realized she's going to prison probation wasn't on the table like her eyes widened. That was such an interesting reaction. It seems to me she didn't think that she was going to spend time behind bars, right? Yep. And that also goes to show that she might not have appreciated the harm that she caused. She might not have appreciated just how bad her actions were. She might have thought that she was going to skate by with probation because maybe other people have in her situation. Or again, maybe she just really did not think it was a big deal.

or as big a deal as the court's thought. Well, you know, she learned her lesson there. She got years in prison. I do think that the judge made the right decision here with that time period. And yeah, she was absolutely shocked. And you hope that this sends a message to would-be predators out there. I will tell you the prosecutor's office doesn't believe that there are any more victims of Ms. Nutley. And it is just quite a conclusion to quite a case.

Serena Townsend, thank you so much for taking the time. Really, really appreciate you and look forward to having you back on the show. Thanks, Jesse. Always a pleasure. And that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcasts.

I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.