Law&Crime Sidebar - Murderous Mom-Daughter Duo Poisoned Dad's Chili, Root Beer Float: Investigators

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

Jackson County, Tennessee authorities have added additional charges in the case of a mother and daughter who allegedly used multiple toxins to try to kill Harold Allen, apparently succeeding in December 2022. Marsha Allen, 52, was found dead of an apparent suicide when police caught on to the alleged scheme. Her daughter, 30-year-old Ashley Jones, was jailed on charges of murder and attempted murder. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber discusses poison as a murder weapon and what’s next in this case with forensic pathologist and medical examiner Dr. Michelle DuPre.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can submit a claim in 8 clicks or less without having to leave your couch. To start your claim, visit: https://www.forthepeople.com/LCSidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger and Christina FalconeScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that will

keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. A mother-daughter poisoning team? That's the allegation authorities in Indiana have leveled against two women accusing them of putting deadly poisons in a man's food and drinks not once, not twice, but five times before he finally succumbed to the toxins. We're piecing together the most important parts of this timeline with a forensic pathologist and medical examiner. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. We've got a wild one for you today, an alleged criminal conspiracy that ended with one of the conspirators behind bars and the other

apparently taking her own life. This is a case that has a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot of characters. There's a lot of moving parts, but we're going to walk you through it. So first, we have to go back to December 2022. That is when 52-year-old Harold Allen, known to many in Freetown, Indiana, as Peanut, died suddenly just before Christmas. This was after some mysterious health episodes that we're going to get into. And the family holds a funeral for Harold and his obituary is full of photos of him with his wife, Marsha Allen, as well as other family and friends. But now let's fast forward to September 2023. And Jackson County, Indiana deputies are investigating a burglary at Marcia Allen's home. Now, here's the thing.

You know who else was living with Marcia? Her daughter, her 30-year-old daughter, Ashley Jones. Very important here. So what happens? They end up arresting two men. Nathaniel Napier, Stephen White, both men in their late 20s, and they told authorities that they didn't actually plan the burglary. No, they say it was Ashley Jones, Allen's 30-year-old daughter. But here's the thing. Alan had reportedly told police that she suspected her daughter might be involved because the burglars knew the combination to her gun safe. And as part of that investigation, law enforcement, they take a look at Allen's cell phone. And what do they find? They find themselves investigating a much different and much more serious crime. They allegedly found

messages between Alan and Jones, this mother and daughter, plotting to poison Harold. So now you see how it comes full circle. Okay, before we go any further, I have someone who's going to go on this journey with me, this complicated journey. I'm joined right now by Dr. Michelle Dupree, a forensic pathologist, medical examiner. Thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate your time. First, let me just start off.

How typical are poisoning cases? They're actually more common than you think, but they're not the most common. And we find oftentimes that women are the one who use poisoning as a method to kill someone because it's sort of hands off. They don't really have to get too much involved with that. Is it usually in these kinds of cases, and I know the poison can be different, the circumstances can be different. But would you say it's kind of harder to find a culprit? Well, you think a lot of these cases, I mean, it's difficult to say because I would say to you,

Do they go undetected? Can you not classify it as a killing, but you wouldn't know? I mean, how many times do these cases end up where it's, you know, we don't have a suspect. We don't have a culprit. It's a way of killing someone without leaving a trace. You're absolutely right. That's entirely possible because poisons, depending on what the poison is, they react differently. And they may take six hours, eight hours.

They may not even happen until, you know, a day or so later, depending on how it was administered. And so putting someone at the time that it was actually administered and who that person is can be very difficult. When I talk about this, by the way, it's pretty clear that Jones is going to need a good lawyer in this case. So much evidence. I mean, in all the cases we talk about, it's stressed how important great legal representation is. And how can I say that without mentioning our incredible partner and sponsor Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm? Because the truth is, getting injured is very scary and you need to know your legal rights. Morgan and Morgan with over 1,000 attorneys, a dedicated team of specialists and investigators,

a track record of multi-million dollar verdicts and settlements. This may be who you want in your corner. Also, so easy to get started and move through the process because with them, it can all be done from your smartphone. So if you're injured, you can easily start a claim at for the people.com slash LC sidebar. We have to go through these details because there are multiple episodes here, and I'm so happy to have your expertise. I want to go back now to October 2023, and this is when Jones, again, this daughter, reportedly confessed to deputies that she ordered ethylene glycol off the internet. But she insisted it was her mother who put this toxin in her in Harold's drink, that it wasn't her. Now, talk to me, doctor, about what ethylene glycol is.

actually it's a chemical substance. It's easily available. It's often found in things like antifreeze. It is odorless. It is colorless. And it has sort of a sweet taste. Oftentimes children get into it by mistake because it tastes good. So again, it's undetectable usually when that person is taking it. They don't have a reaction to it because it tastes good. And in other words, if I were to tell you that they allegedly put it in a root beer drink, this person would not detect it? That is very likely the case. And it's extremely dangerous.

How quickly can someone get sick from it, die from it? Do you need to, is it need to be large quantities or just even a small amount can be lethal? Well, even a small amount can make someone very ill. And certainly the larger the quantity, the worse, the effect, and the sooner that it takes effect. But it basically makes your body shut down, your kidneys, your liver, all of that shuts down.

And you go into seizures, convulsions. And it can obviously cause death. And, you know, unfortunately, haven't we seen it been used as a murder weapon in a lot of cases? Yes, we certainly have. Well, okay, so let's go back to this. We'll get back to the glycol in a minute because it doesn't end there. So Jones was arrested, detained with no bond. And to this day, she remains behind bars in Jackson County, Indiana.

She's awaiting trial in 2025 on multiple charges, including murder, conspiracy, consumer product tampering, attempted murder. as for Alan, she reportedly died by suicide the same day that a search warrant was to be served for her home, October 2023. Now, this is just the beginning because I wanted to walk you through some multiple episodes of alleged poisoning or attempted poisoning. Remember, she's charged with attempted murder here. So according to a supplemental probable cause affidavit, detectives serve warrants on Apple for the contents of an email address that was connected to the purchase of half a gallon of ethylene glycol in December of 2023, the month that Harold died. And it turns out it wasn't just ethylene glycol that Jones was allegedly buying.

No, going back to the affidavit on September 14th, 2022, and 11.04 a.m., the Topaz Moonchild email account, this is the one that was associated with Jones, received an email from eBay confirming an order for pong pong dried seeds. Doctor, what are pongedong dried seeds? Well, this is very unusual. It's an absolutely interesting case. This is a plant that is native to Asia and in that area, Singapore there. It actually used to be used as a sort of a truth serum. It would be fed to people who were accused of crimes. And if they died, then they were guilty. If they didn't, if they survived, then they were innocent. But again, this is something that can crushed up and can be very deadly when taken and you can get them pretty easily online right

apparently you can and this is not something that in a normal toxicology report it isn't something that we would normally search for you know when we do a toxicology case and suspect poisoning we need to have some idea as to what that poison might be because a normal assay or test may not include that particular substance what is this toxin due to someone's body well again it begins to shut down the whole body. It decreases your heart rate. It can cause you to have arrhythmias. It can cause you to have seizures. It affects your blood pressure. It affects almost every part of your body, and it decompresses that. And if treatment isn't given, and we don't really know of a specific antidote for it, again, it can be deadly. And I apologize if you hit upon this,

I'm just thinking about it, but is it easily detectable? No, it isn't easily detectable. No, Absolutely not. Wow. Wow. All right. So this continues. The probable cause affidavit notes that the seeds were sent to the Allen home and the ethylene glycol, by the way, would be shipped to the same address in December. So you can kind of see how they're building a case here, a pattern. And the purchases were also linked to Allen's debit card as well. Now investigators say that while Alan and Harold were out to dinner, this was at the end of November, Jones used a coffee grinder to crush the pong pong seeds. into a powder, mixed it up with ingredients for brownies, and Alan made those the next day. And the affidavit included a text exchange between Alan and Jones on November 26. It reads at 10.20 p.m. Jones texted, how's it going, L.O.L. 12 minutes later, Alan allegedly sent back a photo of what appeared to be Harold holding a half-eaten brownie on a paper plate. And Ashley responds, ooh, let me know when it's gone, L-O-L. He ate almost all.

It was large but good. I think he ate most of it, don't you? I think so, followed by a smiley face. So given the context of what we're talking about, very, very chilling messages here. Now, just minutes later, Alan texts his daughter that Harold is asleep, snoring. But then a few minutes after that, she says that Harold is in the bathroom and he's moaning. Now, the next day, Harold called out sick from work. Eventually, he had to go to the emergency room.

again you said it would be really hard to detect this doctor are you surprised that he survived this yes to some extent but also depending on the amount and because it was veiled in some other type of substance like the brownie again the effects would be somewhat lessened so unfortunately apparently you know it he would he did survive he just didn't get enough of the dosage Can I ask you, this could be a very stupid question, and I'm curious about it, if you have these toxins in your body, and we'll get to multiple attempts here, can you detect it in the body for a while, for months to come? Does it leave any kind of marking in the body? Because I'm just wondering if they're trying to prove this case, and they do an autopsy on this man, would they be able to detect anything like these seeds or these, you know, these different kinds of, powders, these different toxins, even if it was months ago or a year ago or weeks ago, just generally speaking, how much can the body retain trace evidence of a poison? That's an excellent question. And again, it really depends on the substance.

Many substances like heavy metals, for example, are detected for months after that. They can be detected in hair follicles. And at a normal autopsy, we retain tissue to be tested at a later date, should we need to. We retain things like the kidney and the liver, which is where a lot of these toxins are actually processed. So depending on the time frame and depending on the toxin, yes, it may be detectable. But again, depending on that toxin, if it's been weeks or days or months, it may not be detectable. Yeah, because so if this happened like what the month before, there's a possibility it could still be in his system, so to speak. So let's go back to this.

There are these text message logs and they show Alan and Jones were texting in the lead up to the ER visit and they were wondering why Harold wasn't dead yet. Jones said to Alan, okay, well, we can discuss things tonight or tomorrow, whatever. We're fine regardless. End result never changes. I love you. Alan responds, love you too. I just want it done, L.O.L.

Jones says, me too, like beyond over LOL, but we got it. Then Alan writes, like, what's taking so long? Now, as Harold recovers from the hospital visit at home, there are other several very concerning text messages that are exchanged. For example, from Jones to her mother, he's an ass, you've been so nice, and he's hanging on by a thread. It's so long because he's big. Or this, from Allen to her daughter, he is not presenting like the stories. And then the following day, according to the text messages, Alan and Jones allegedly decide they must have done something wrong with the seeds. because Alan says, quote, his exact words, I am feeling a lot better since drinking Gatorade.

Jones says, well, we need to reorder Allen, WTF, Jones, probably can't be cooked, but did do some damage. Doctors, is that true? Does the body retain the negative effects for a period of time? Yes, it certainly can. And again, depending on the toxin. In this case, the pompon seeds take effect three to six hours after ingestion. and depending on that dosage, depends on how serious the symptoms are. In other words, and correct me from wrong, if you, and this was a question I had towards

the end, too, as we talk about all the potential substances that he was poisoned with or allegedly poisoned with, does it continually weaken the body for a period of time that you try poisoning at this time, try poisoning this time, by the third time that comes around, even if you give a small dosage of something, has your body already become weakened because of all these toxins? Absolutely. It can be. And particularly, again, with something like heavy metals, small dosages over a long period

of time, and then that one last little drop can actually be the killing dose. But yes, many toxins can evolve over time like that. And again, if there are different toxins that are used, if they both act on the same part of the body, like the liver or the kidney, then yes, it can be devastating. Well, I got another toxin to talk about because investigators say that Jones then went to Etsy and bought what's known as water hemlock. Talk to me about that, doctor. So hemlock has been known since the beginning of time.

In fact, it's what Socrates used to commit suicide. It is from a plant. It's basically indigenous to many parts of the U.S. in fact. And put into a tea, that substance can then be consumed or ingested and can be lethal. How lethal? Is it immediate? Is it that dangerous of a toxin? or does it need to be put into doses at a period of time?

Well, one dose can certainly kill you, depending on the amount of that. And again, it has very similar symptoms to the other poisons. In fact, this one causes hypertension or high blood pressure. It can also cause seizures. It causes respiratory failure so that your lungs begin to not work properly.

And then that, of course, can be lethal. So what happened here? Well, Alan reportedly added it to a bowl of chili as well as a drink, but Harold, while he wasn't better, he also really wasn't feeling much worse. Alan even goes as far as to wonder if they were actually sent real water hemlock. They thought maybe they got the wrong thing. That's what the allegation is.

So, doctor, again, any reason he survived this if they're giving him this amount? And he's in a weakened state because of the other toxins. Again, it was dosage dependent. And it was somewhat weakened because it was in another liquid. But he just didn't get a large enough dosage, fortunately. Now, there is clearly, as you can see, a lot of information contained in these text messages. And we could go on for hours and hours and hours about it because there really is a lot. So here's what we know about the timeline.

On October 11th, 2022, Alan allegedly ordered the pong pong scenes from eBay. On November 25th, Jones made brownies or allegedly made brownies and used the coffee grinder. And the next day, Harold got very sick, had to go to the hospital. December 1st, Jones placed an order for water hemlock on. Etsy. And then on December 9th, Jones allegedly asked Alan about making chili and leaving some in the microwave for Harold. December 10th, text messages seem to indicate that Harold is drinking a sprite with poison in it. On December 12th, he's allegedly given a margarita with poison in it. And then on December 19th, the women allegedly put ethylene glycol in Harold's

root beer float. And the next afternoon, December 20th, paramedics get a call about an unconscious person and Harold is dead on arrival. Now, at the time, there was no foul play suspected. Things have obviously changed. So, doctor, let me just go one more time. I laid out that timeline. What do you think all of those toxins had the effect it had on his body? Is it definitive that we can say it was just the ethylene glycol? Or do you think it was a combination of everything that allegedly was ingested into his body? Well, certainly the ethylene glycol was the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, and the kidneys and the liver, they probably did suffer some damage. And so that had an effect on that. When this goes to trial, or if this goes to trial, do you anticipate

the defense calling their own medical expert to suggest that this was not a case of poisoning because it seems pretty straightforward? I don't know how you would argue otherwise, but tell me if I'm missing something here. No, absolutely. I would expect them to do that simply as a matter of course, but certainly ethylene glycol is not something that we find in any food or any substance that a human should be ingesting. So even the suggestion of finding that in the toxicology report would certainly indicate foul play. And just to make it clear, it would be easy to prove, I mean, would there be any way that a defense expert could say, we can tell you the cause of death that was from something else, that it was from natural causes, or is it

easy to show that the poison and the poisons are what caused his death? I believe it would be fairly easy to show because there's actual physical damage to the tissue crystals form and the kidneys and things of that nature, but also I think their their defense would probably be that he ingested it intentionally claiming suicide rather than homicide. Yeah, I don't know if that one's going to work. And look, I've said it once. I've said it a thousand times on sidebar. As a prosecutor, you don't need to prove motive to get a conviction. But important, the jury still needs to know the why. You need to tell that story. And so you might be asking, okay, one thing you didn't mention, Judge Jesse, is why did

Allen and Jones allegedly want Harold Gunn? And the answer is, allegedly, a classic one, money. Yes, according to deputies, Jones allegedly texted with one of the men accused in that burglary of Allen's gun safe and indicated that the crime was financially motivated. She even allegedly brag, helping her mom access Harold's phone so she could empty out his retirement fund and his savings. And in a twist that no one saw coming, the family was also apparently running a marijuana growing operation out of their basement. So you have to wonder was the goal to have Harold out of the way? Any profits would be split with, instead of it being split three ways. It would be split between the two of them. I wonder if it's something the prosecution will move

forward with. Now, the prosecuting attorney says that he does plan to seek a sentence of life imprisonment without parole, providing two possible aggravating factors here that not only did Jones allegedly killed Harold, but she tortured him for weeks in the process. Jones jury trial is scheduled to start in January. Doctor, I'll just give you the floor for final thoughts, comments, concerns about this case. It's a different one. It might be similar, right? I mean, similar alleged motivations, poison, but it feels, oh my gosh, that timeline of what this guy allegedly went through is just awful. This is diabolical. I mean, this is what movies are made of, you know, to try and poison someone with three different methods, three different toxins in that period of time, and to be so

persistent. This is diabolical. This is absolutely awful. Yeah, and I feel, again, feel so bad that idea of torture what he had to be going through for these weeks is just it's really really upsetting and my heart prayers go out to Harold's family having to deal with this and go through this experience it's a tough one and thinking about who's allegedly responsible really tough case but listen doctor thank you so much for coming on really appreciate it I really needed your expertise on this one and you did not disappoint so thank you so much thanks for having me All right, everybody. That's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.