Law&Crime Sidebar - ‘Really Drunk’ Mom Arrested After Newborn Twin Found Dead

Episode Date: July 11, 2025

Brennan Spencer, 33, is accused of second-degree murder after one of her twins was found dead at her home. Her boyfriend told Oklahoma City police that he and Spencer had split a 12-pack of White Claw alcoholic seltzer. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber discusses the sensitive and controversial case with criminal defense attorney Bradford Cohen.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/sidebar to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger, Christina O'Shea & Jay CruzScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller

that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. A two-month-old boy is dead. A mother has been arrested months after his death and authorities are saying she is to blame, murdering him in a drunken state. This is a confusing and sad case that we're exploring out of Oklahoma as we try to piece together what has happened and what we can expect next. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Hey, everybody. This is another law and crime legal alert. Did you know that children are being diagnosed with serious conditions like type 2 diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and the research is potentially linking ultra-processed foods to all this? Morgan and Morgan, they're stepping in to fight to hold these food companies accountable.

With decades of experience fighting large corporations, they're ready to stand up for the families who deserve justice. So if your child, under 21, has been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes or fatty liver disease, then visit www.4thepeople.com slash food or scan the QR code on screen to learn more. Strange but sad case out of Oklahoma City we want to talk about. 33-year-old Brennan Christine Spencer was arrested last week in charge with second-degree murder for the November 2nd, 2024 death of her two-month-old son, a twin, referred to in court documents, as RK. And when you look at second-degree murder, here's how it's defined that Spencer, quote,

unlawfully, willfully, knowingly, and wrongfully committed murder by failing to provide adequate care, supervision, or appropriate caretakers to protect R.K. from harm or threatened harm, which caused him to suffer injuries resulting in this death. Natural question, of course, is what is she accused of doing to him exactly? Okay. Well, according to a copy of an arrest affidavit that was reviewed by People magazine, Spencer had gone to sleep with newborn twins, so RK and LK. And when she wakes up, okay, LK is in her arms, but RKK is dead. dead at her feet. The problem is she allegedly had been drinking the night before. A lot. So the father of the children, James Kelson, told police that he and Spencer had split a 12 pack of

White Claw, the alcoholic selters. By the way, outlet KFOR reports that each can was 12 ounces and contained 8% alcohol. Okay. So when he and Spencer decide to go to bed, the last he sees are the two children, quote, laid in the bassonets at the foot of their bed. Then, shortly before 7 a.m., he wakes up, sees that neither Spencer nor the kids are there in the bedroom. He apparently goes into the living room, and according to the affidavit, he claims he sees Spencer asleep on the couch holding their daughter, LK, and RK, is at her feet. Now, according to the Oklahomaan, when paramedics arrived shortly after, the boy wasn't breathing. He was still warm. He had blood coming from his face and he was pronounced dead at OU Children's Hospital.

Now, Spencer reportedly told police that Kelson had told her to get more white-clad around midnight. So she claims she went to a 7-Eleven and then she gets home and falls asleep on the couch immediately, immediately, passes out. She apparently even admitted to police at one point in her interview that she was, quote, probably really drunk and quote, and I was drunk enough to just need to pass out. Detective Matthew Bermel, who wrote out the affidavit, explains how he took a look at the video from that store that Spencer claimed she went to, and he sees her arriving at 1.23 a.m., leaving four minutes later with cans of White Claw, and police apparently finds several of those cans, and by the way, the prior 12 cans in the trash, so corroborating this account of how much the couple were drinking. Again, you might be saying, how is she responsible for her son's death?

Well, according to the affidavit, the medical examiner determined that this little boy's probable cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleep environment. So you couple that with Deputy Chief Child Abuse Examiner Ryan Brown, who reportedly concluded that the newborn boy was, quote, a victim of neglect due to Spencer's, quote, level of intoxication and her, quote, awareness levels were altered. it's really highlighting how RK should have been in the bassinet because the conclusion is that the likelihood would have been that this child would be alive. The likelihood would have increased. So it seems we're talking about suffocation. The question is, was this just a tragic accident

or was this a crime? For that, I want to bring on in studio, by the way. I have him here with me. Renowned criminal defense attorney to the stars. Bradford Cohen. Bradford, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. here having me you know last time we spoke i uh i owe you a dinner over the ditty verdict you

called it correctly on that uh before we get into this i mean you're with me any quick thoughts on the ditty verdict and the ditty sentence i think the ditty verdict was the right verdict okay i think that's what they were going to prove i've said that from the first day he got charged i said the only thing i can see is the man act knowing what evidence i knew of that case and i thought okay maybe the prosecution has things that I haven't seen. So I think the verdict was correct in just a man act. Now the sentencing is going to be unusual, right? So people are guessing, is the judge going to launch him

because he knows all these other things that he allegedly did, which some of those things can't even be used in a sentencing? Or is he going to give him what a guideline sentence would be, which is like 20 months, 22 months. I think the judge is going to stick to the guidelines. I think he's going to give him under three years. That's my guess. But not time served and you can leave.

I don't think he's going to give him time. time served. Okay, I agree. We could always talk about this another day. But right now I want to get back to this case. This is an incredibly, incredibly sad case and confusing case. I'm still a little confused as to what they're exactly alleging happened. Do you get a sense? I mean, do you feel like you need more details at this point? Yeah, of course. So in these cases, these cases are always tough, right? Yeah, yeah. And they're tragic cases, they're horrible cases because it's not done purposefully, it's not done willingly, although they say like, oh, she got drunk willingly, she got drunk purposefully. The problem that they have is really how are they proving what

exactly happened? Was that baby sleeping on the couch? And she would have been to sleep anyways and maybe not been able to do something with that baby. They're saying it was an unsafe sleep environment. They don't even know really what sleep environment he was in. A lot of parents, a lot of new parents take their kids, put them in the bed, which is dangerous anyways. And there's all these smothering cases where the mom's not drunk, the dad's not drunk. And what happens is they just fall asleep, they roll over on their baby, and it's a horrible thing. They wake up in the morning. Now, what's interesting here, are they charged in those cases? Sometimes they are, because, you know, in some districts, they'll say, hey, you were negligent

because you put, just like this case, you put that baby in the bed and it shouldn't have been in the bed that was unsafe. It just depends on the state attorney, and it really depends on the jurisdiction. I've seen them charged, and I've also seen them say, hey, listen, we're not going to charge it and the right move on that case where no one's drunk no one does anything the mom might be exhausted because she just had this baby she's breastfeeding the baby in bed falls asleep rolls over on the baby it's a tragic case this case is unusual because of the amount of alcohol right yeah and the other fact that i think is really a good fact for them is that the baby was still warm when they got there it wasn't like the baby was dead for hours and i think

that if you look at, you know, even if she was drinking all this alcohol, which they say she was, and I don't know if they did a breathalyzer on her or not, at some point it dissipates. At some point, she's just asleep, right? And at that point, is she smothering the baby or is the baby just lying face down? And, you know, these things happen. So I think it's a difficult case for second degree. I think that it's going to be hard to really prove if they get the right experts, if they get the right defense attorney.

I think it's a tough case. It's just one of those cases where these are young parents, right? The likelihood that they're going to get an attorney that's going to be someone who's been in the business for 20 years is probably slim. Not to say that public defenders are not good. There's a bunch that are great. It's just they have so many cases to look at. They have only a limited amount of resources, as opposed to the state or the government

that just has unlimited amount of resources, hires experts, hires all these people. It's really, that's the key here. really, you know, although this case is tragic, it's also, it's going to give you an insight into the justice system. We always talk about a battle of the experts to try to determine what happened here. Do you think that's worthy for a defense attorney to try to get an expert to talk about what an alternative cause of death could have been for this baby? Because I don't know how much they're going to fight that the baby was seemingly asphyxiated or should they. I mean, again, it's so strange about, they weren't the level. of detail where they can say she rolled over on him or, you know, I don't know exactly

how the baby died, but do you think it's worthy to try to explore that and see alternative causes of death for this? So for me, I always explore everything and then I narrow down, right? So is it worth it? If the individual has the resources to do that, to me it's always worth it. It's always worth to explore every defense and then narrow it down to see exactly what the defense would be. Now, it just depends on the case, right? I mean, if the facts are on video, if there's something there, you're not exploring every fact. And even when a defendant comes

to me and says, hey, this is what happened. I get it, but I still want to explore everything. You know, like, and things happen so fast, you might not even realize how it happened. You might not realize like, oh, wait a minute, you know, the gun went off this way or this happened. You know, all these different little factors, when an individual tells you something, you still have to get an expert to look at it. You know, look at the Alec Baldwin case. Same thing. You need, he said, oh, I just took it out and it just fired.

Well, you need an expert to verify that. And then the experts were like, wait a minute, that can't happen like that. So you have to start exploring the different defenses. Were you surprised how long it took for there to be an arrest? Because I'll tell you, the assistant district attorney here, Meredith Harmon said it was the results of that autopsy report, which I mentioned before. That's what led to this. This is according to the Oklahoma.

And there is a period of time here from November to now. I mean, that's an interesting period of time. So I think normally on these type of cases, state attorneys really think this over. This isn't like a gut reaction pulled a trigger type situation where you want to file on this individual because it's a mom that just went through a horrible experience. No matter what you think of the mom, no matter if you think, hey, I would never do that. I wouldn't have 12 white claws. No matter what you think, it is a horrible thing for a parent to have to bury a child.

So that right there is the consideration to begin with. And you want some time period between, you don't want to arrest the next day if it's a case like this where, you know, now you have a mom that's been through this whole horrible thing and that just affects them even more. I think a lot of those decisions and a state attorney that thinks about it is a smart state attorney. Do they charge so aggressively, arguably aggressively, to try to work out a deal? Always. I'm always, I've never seen a state attorney on a major case or a case that's of note that files the right charges. They always file one or two steps up and then they try to negotiate a deal. And the same thing with the Diddy case, the same thing with any of my high profile cases.

I always feel, you know, if a kid gets caught with 20 pills on them and it's a high profile case, they charge it as trafficking. You know, you get, I wouldn't say you, but anyone gets caught with prescription pills on them, just a Joe Blow. they get charged with possession. So you see that quite often on these bigger cases where the risk is so high to go to trial that they try to work something out. In the Ditty case, why it didn't work out is because the offer was so huge.

It was like 20 or 25 years that it was worth taking the risk to go to trial. But here it's, I think I say this, because I cover these kind of cases almost every day, almost every week on sidebar about child abuse cases or child death cases. I always have to imagine prosecutors don't want this to go to trial.

Not that they don't think they're going to win. Do they not want to put a jury through it? Do they want jury members to see photos of the deceased child? I mean, it's going to be a really painful trial for everybody involved. I have to imagine that's a consideration. It always is a consideration. It's very painful. And also, there's a level of sorry that you feel for the mom.

I mean, the moms doesn't have a bunch of criminal history, and the mom hasn't done this before, or there's an M.O. of her getting drunk and doing crazy things. this is not a case that you want to go to trial and also don't forget this is probably not a case the defendant wants to go to trial because the defendant probably feels guilty herself right she probably feels like at some level i am guilty of something and that in itself usually works out a deal you know if they offer her a manslaughter if they offer her a reckless something along those lines where she'd get you know three to five or six years most likely a defendant would take that because they also feel a level of guilt in these type of situations. If this were to go to a jury, what kind of jury members would you be looking for here? I mean, do you think the case would really boil down to trying to appeal? You're not supposed to.

You look at the facts and the evidence. I wonder how much a case like this will be built upon emotion and going into it. And I wonder what arguments do you make to a jury? What kind of jury would you want in a case like this? Yeah, so this is a tough one, right? Because you think to yourself, oh, maybe I want moms that would relate, right? But it's like you also don't want. want a mom that would be you don't want an older mom probably she should have known better right

right you probably want a younger mom that it says like oh i've gone out some nights and i probably over drank and i probably shouldn't have done that but my husband wasn't drinking that night or something along those lines you definitely don't want a mom that's like you know 50 or 60 year old mom like my mom who would say like this is completely your fault you know if i went out at two o'clock in the morning and someone hit my car it would somehow be my fault because i shouldn't have been out to 2 o'clock in the morning. That's the kind of mom you don't want, although I love my mom, but she would always say that. Always blame me for something. You make a good point. I covered a lot in firearms cases. There are times where you say, oh, you want people on the jury

who own firearms, understand firearms. They'll be like, yeah, I know how to protect firearms. I know how to keep them safe. I don't want those people on the jury. That's a problem. Right? That's the problem. Would you do a bench trial, have a judge decide this case? I don't think you would on this type of case for the charge, if it's second degree. If they lowered it, if they said, hey, we're going on a manslaughter. Let's see, you know, if you want to go to trial, you can go trial with a judge. I don't see this being a bench trial on this case. I think you want a jury on this type of case.

If you're trying to walk your client or get a lesser, I don't see a judge giving a lesser. Don't forget, judges are people, number one, obviously. Number two is they're elected officials. So on these high-profile cases, I try to explain this to my clients, I try to explain to everybody. They are looking at public opinion, even though they shouldn't, right? They should just be neutral individuals, but they're not. They look at public opinion because those are the people that are voting them into office.

Now, in federal cases, it's a little different because it's lifetime appointment. But in state cases, I've seen state judges deny great motions to dismiss because it's a high-profile case and they can't grant it. You know, it's that type of thing that goes on. It just happens in state cases because they're elected officials. I hate to ask this question, but I have to ask, because I'm sure people are going to be writing in the comments why I didn't ask this question. But the point is, there were two people in that house. There were two adults. And if you take what we're reading from this where she allegedly went out to buy alcohol because of Jason, the father, is he, do you think he's concerned he might be facing charges of any kind?

I think any time in this situation, you always think that you could be charged as well. and to be quite honest with you, the real defense here is like, hey, he was telling, you know, he could have been, he could have done something. I don't know. I passed out on the couch. Maybe the kids were crying. He brought them out to the couch and put them on the couch. So that's really, those are the kind of defenses you have to think about and you start saying, hey, wait a minute, you know, between me and you, he was drunk, you were drunk, you passed out on the couch. You don't remember ever taking the kids out of the bassinet. He was just as drunk as you. Maybe he took the kids out of the bassinet. they were crying, put them on the couch. She would have to sign off on that defense. Oh, 100%.

She's not going to be like... And they have to turn on each other. But like, that happens a lot. That happens a lot with a husband and wife. Sometimes they'll turn on each other or blame each other. And then sometimes they both walk because the jury can't decide which way it went. Well, I don't think that's going to happen as of right now. Why?

Because if you... We checked out Jason Kelson's Facebook page after Spencer was arrested and he wrote, does anyone know any pro bono lawyers that would help me and mom with a state? V.S. accidental death of a child case. And this is, you know, I didn't even know the Facebook, but this is where I go back to the justice system, right? Now, they're looking for a pro bono lawyer, which I think is, it would be amazing. But at the same token, don't forget, there are expenses that come with these cases. Even if the lawyer is free, you try to get the government or the, or the judge

to sign off on, hey, listen, I'm broke. I need experts. I need this. It's, you're jumping through hoops. It is much better, in my opinion. to go with a public defender, then a pro bono lawyer that you're going to have to come out of pocket or you're going to have to ask the judge to cover expenses because every single expense the judge is looking at. But they will grant it at times. Oh, 100%. Oh, yeah. But the problem that you have when they grant it is like sometimes, like I just said, I like to explore different things.

The judge may say, hey, listen, I'm not giving you that. You know, that's something you're exploring. I'm not going to allow an expert on hand-to-hand combat. I'm not going to allow you an expert to do another autopsy. We already have an autopsy. That's where a public defender's office that's well-funded, I don't know if this public defender's office is well-funded, that's where that comes into play.

And don't forget, like I said before, I have seen public defenders that are unbelievable, better than private attorneys. The difference is that I carry four or five cases a year, you know, major cases. A public defender may carry 100 major cases a year. So it's just the attention that they can give each case. It's not the level, generally, of the lawyer.

It's the level of how far they can stretch out a public defender. I appreciate you say that because public defenders do get a bad rap. Oh, they're great. Listen, I've seen some that are so unbelievable in court. I've worked with them. I've worked with some that were unbelievable lawyers. And I always say, like, why don't you go out in private practice? But they love what they do.

They love helping people, and they love going to the office and looking over information and having the resources, unlimited resources generally that can help them win a case. By the way, I'll tell you, from a legal point of view, at the time of this recording, Spencer hasn't entered a plea. She remains locked up on a $500,000 bail. Is that high? Yeah.

And listen, it's a second-degree murder case. So is it high for a second-degree murder case? I think it's high even for a second-degree murder case, even where there was an action of, you know, a shooting or something like that. In her case, because it was accidental, I don't know what her priors are. Now, if she's got a list of priors, she's got DUIs and accident cases and all these different things where the state is going to argue she's a danger, then, yes, that a higher bond is appropriate. But if she's got no priors and this was an accidental death, it's an extremely high bond. And she might be able to argue for it to be lessened, right?

Yeah, she'll argue that it should be lessened. And I think that some judge may lessen that bond. But don't forget, in our society, in our criminal justice system, bonds are usually used. as leverage, right? So the state usually asks for a high bond. Look at the ditty case. I keep coming back to it. Because they feel like if they're in, they will be more likely to plea the case or come to a resolution and it won't drag on. It'll be a quicker case because they want to get out or whatever it is. So bonds are used as leverage generally, which is a shame because it shouldn't be. But that's what happens. Now our research indicates that she is facing right now 10 years to

life in prison if they were correct and that's quite a big range there for the circumstances like this what could she be looking at looking at if she's convicted so again it goes it boils down to what her priors are how she has behaved in the past and judges always look at that they are you a good person or a bad person you know do you go to church on sundays do you know do all these charitable events and this is a tragic now if she's just like a horrible person and you know she's drunk all the time and she's got all these priors I think you start edging up probably the 25 years right if she's a good person and you know the judge says like oh this is a tragic accident she's coming back down to that 10 now my opinion is the state probably is going to

come to some agreement and cap it so they'll say like hey listen if you plea or plea open or whatever it is we're not going to give we're not going to ask for more than 12 years or whatever it is you can argue for less so she'll argue down to 10 or they'll change the charge to a manslaughter and offer or just a straight deal of like, you know, anywhere from 8 to 12. That's my guess. That's the range generally for these type of cases where it's a complete accident and no prior criminal history. By the way, real quick, going back to the father of the children, if he's called to testify,

he's subpoenaed probably by the prosecution, and let's say he's like, I'm not, I don't think she did anything wrong. Like, can he be a combative witness and hurt the prosecution's case? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it just depends. Like, and that's where the state starts saying, well, we could charge you. You know, like, and that's why I keep coming back to, like, when there's witnesses for the government or the state,

generally speaking, they have something on those witnesses. And when those witnesses come to talk to the state or the government, the government usually says, hey, listen, by the way, just so you know, we could charge you with a crime. Now, tell us what happened. Yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden you're like, okay, what do you want to know? So that's how that happens. Look, this is a horrible case.

This shouldn't have happened. And even though we're trying to figure out exactly what happened, let me give you a statistic, According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, unsafe sleep practices, which we were talking about before, are the leading cause of death for infants between one month and one year old. And just to tie it all back, according to the Saperan obituary that's online and that is allowing users to plant a tree in memory for RK,

it reads, Sometimes the smallest things take up the most room in your heart. This would prove true with RK his brief life, touch the hearts of all of his family. of his family. It's a really, really sad case. It is a tragedy. And hopefully we get more answers as to what exactly happened here because he should still be alive. Bradford Cohen, thank you so much. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Always good to see you. Good seeing you. It's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please

subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.