Law&Crime Sidebar - Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt Were Likely Intimate: Daughter

Episode Date: January 11, 2025

Shari Franke, the eldest daughter of former mommy vlogger and current Utah inmate Ruby Franke, released a tell-all book on Tuesday. “The House of Mother” recounts instances where Shari realized her mother and business partner Jodi Hildebrandt had likely been intimately involved, as well as a confrontation between the mother and daughter after child protective services was called. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber goes over the most shocking revelations from the new book with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/sidebar to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger and Christina FalconeScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. When police arrested Ruby Frankie in 23, her eldest daughter Sherry's first thought was that her young siblings were dead. That is according to her new autobiography, the house of my mother. We are getting a look at what Shari revealed in that memoir, including an apparent affair her mom was having with her business partner as Ruby sits locked up in a Utah prison for felony child abuse. Welcome to Sidebar. Presented by law and crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Yes, we are revisiting the Frankie saga. And more specifically,

this update regarding the dynamic between child abuser Ruby Frankie and her daughter, Shari Frankie, that was explored in a new book. Now, before we even get into that, I have to talk a little bit more about Shari and this family, because you see, Shari had grew up in front of a camera. The now 21-year-old was the oldest of six children, all of whom were featured on a popular YouTube channel, started by her mom, Ruby Frankie, her dad, Kevin Frankie. It was called eight passengers, chronicled their lives in Utah, eventually amassed millions of followers. But in 2023, Ruby and her new business partner, disgraced mental health counselor Jody Hildebrand, were arrested for the twisted child abuse of Shari's youngest sister and brother. These crimes were exposed when her 12-year-old brother escaped from Jody's home ran to a neighbor who called 911.

He was emaciated. He had duct tape on his wrists and ankles. His nine-year-old younger sister was found inside the home. It took a long time, by the way, for an officer to actually coax this terrified girl out of that small room. In fact, at first, police believed the child was a boy because her hair had been cut short. According to investigators, both children had been subjected to horrific abuse, including being denied food and water, being made to stand out in the hot sun for hours, physical labor, subjected to physical violence. And it turned out that Ruby had written about much of this abuse. in a journal. She and Jody reportedly believed that they were doing God's will by using punishment

to exercise demons that had taken over the children. Both Ruby and Jody, they eventually entered guilty pleas to four counts of aggravated child abuse. They were sentenced to spend at least four years in prison, but that could balloon up to 30 years. It all depends on what Utah's parole board ends up deciding. Now, of course, nothing even close to that level of trauma or abuse was ever shown in eight passengers' videos, but there were red flags. There were definitely red flags. Online sleuths uncovered clips that Ruby had posted to social media where her oldest son talked about having to sleep on a beanbag chair for months. There was a clip of Ruby saying how she refused to take her youngest daughter's lunch to school when her daughter forgot it at home. But you go back

to Sherry. So the family's home was in Springville, Utah. But Ruby had started spending these long stretches of time away with Jody Hildebrand. And at one point in September of 2022, Shari had called Springville police asking them to do a welfare check at the home. She had claimed that her brothers and sisters had been left at home alone while their mother was in St. George. Shari told them that she got a call from a neighbor who said that the kids have been alone for five days. As for Kevin, the kid's father, he apparently had been forced out of the home, reportedly at Jody's suggestion, was living elsewhere. He claims to have not known what was going on with his children during that time. He had filed for divorce from Ruby once she got arrested, and Kevin

told the Salt Lake Tribune that Jody had told Ruby that they shouldn't answer the door if the Department of Child and Family Services came knocking. Without a warrant, social workers or police couldn't enter the home. By the way, Kevin is now working with the Utah legislature to update child welfare rules, saying there are too many loopholes in the system. But again, going back to Sherry, she had moved out of that home, was reportedly estranged from her family, attended Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. And on the day that Ruby was arrested, Sherry had posted a photo of police in her old neighborhood,

saying only, finally. And then in a separate post, she wrote, Today has been a big day. Me and my family are so glad justice is being served. We've been trying to tell the police and CPS for years about this, and so glad they finally decided to step up. Kids are safe, but there's a long road ahead. Please keep them in your prayers and also respect their privacy.

And since then, Sherry Frankie has given a few updates on social media about her life, especially what we're going to talk about now, the release of her autobiography, The House of My Mother, A Daughter's Quest for Freedom. And also, by the way, she announced over the holidays that she's engaged. And in the post, she wrote, I'm excited to share that I'm engaged. However, for me, this is the end of me sharing my private life. I've had my voice in agency taken for so long, and now I'm putting my foot down. I'm not going to talk about my wedding, future husband, or future kids.

I'll continue to advocate for kids who didn't have a voice. So you'll still be seeing me. Don't worry. But this is closure for me. I'm moving on with my life, and that's true freedom and joy. Please respect my privacy and the privacy of my future family. And don't speculate or pry. This is my wish and my gift to my family. And by the way, we also recently told you about Sherry's testimony in front of the Utah legislature committee about family vlogging.

And Sherry says her mom's obsession with fame and money meant she had to grow up online in front of millions of people. So she's now advocating for stricter regulations to protect other vulnerable kids. By the way, if you follow us here on Sidebar, you know we try to put a lot of episodes out a day. It gets kind of busy here, kind of hectic. But we have a sponsor who has made one part of my day not only easier, but actually rewarding. It is called Upside. Now, if you don't know what is, it's awesome. It is a free app that gets you cash back on Daily Essentials, like,

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on your first tank of guess. Hope you can check it out. But now I want to talk about some experts from this book, House of My Mother. So to do that, I want to bring in forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober, to talk more about this. Dr. Boba, thanks so much for coming here on Sidebar. Appreciate it. Great to be here, Jesse. Now, first, Dr. Bober, writing a memoir for many, maybe who might be cynical of this, you know, there are people who could say, oh, this is just a cash grab, but it might be deeper than that, right? Others might see this as a cathartic way to help them, to help someone, right? It's a cathartic way to tell their story and share this story, especially for somebody who was advocating for other children that might be in a similar

position. What's your take on writing a memoir like this and what effect it might have in the person writing it so just you know it's easy in our cynical society to see it as a cash grab but as you said i think it might be something deeper it could be something therapeutic for her or cathartic and if she could spread her story and other kids out there are touched by this or other families and that causes them to come forward then i think it was all worth it right i mean we know that one in four girls and one in 13 boys are abused every day in this country over half a million victims of child abuse every year. So I think this is a good opportunity to put the word out and try to get people to come forward. And I think this story really just exemplifies our society and how obsessed we are

with image. I call it sometimes the Facebook fallacy or the Instagram illusion, how we project a certain image to the world, but nothing could be further from the truth. So I think this really shows that. And it's not easy for someone to recount these episodes either, right? Oh, absolutely not. I mean, in a sense, she's re-traumatizing herself. And that's what happens with kids in this country who go through abuse. And we call this in our field adverse childhood experiences. And it sets them up in the future for all sorts of problems, not just depression, anxiety, and substance use, but diseases, chronic diseases like heart disease and cancer and obesity, all from childhood abuse. And that has a tremendous economic toll on society as well. So I would argue that this is good public health. good public policy to get the word out. Now, going to this memoir, Shari makes some stunning allegations, okay? And one of them is that Ruby and Jody may have been romantically involved. So according to Sherry, the upstairs of the Frankie comb was off limits. And we know from interviews that Kevin did with police that Jody had moved in with the Frankies and that she had apparently

been having these visions. Now, Ruby was supposed to be helping her during these times. Kevin wasn't even allowed to go upstairs without their express permission. This is according to Sherry. And now there have been rumors swirling about that Ruby and Jody's relationship, what was going on since the beginning? Were the two just business partners? Were they friends? Was it more? So Shari writes in the book that she went back to her old bedroom once while the women were away in order to get something. And she was, quote, confused about what she saw. The room was bathed in the soft glow of candles. The air was heavy with the scent of lavender and vanilla wafting from the massage oils on the dresser.

I quickly grabbed what I needed and got the hell out of there, feeling like I just walked into someone else's honeymoon suite. The only thing missing was rose petals on the bed. And Shari says that the two women condemned queerness very publicly in their connections videos while embodying it privately. And Shari says in the book that she would have supported Ruby and Jody if they had come out publicly as a couple and said it would have been much more preferable compared to the life of secrets and lies that they were living and forcing other people to live

that way too. So Dr. Bober, again, it's interesting to hear that because there's, you know, what the public face was and the public message versus what might have been going on behind closed doors. You know, we hear stories like this all the time, right? This is what we call reaction formation, right? People who, for example, hate gay people, but then they're questioning their own sexuality. people who are out there championing the cause of protecting children and they themselves are abusing children. So I think this is actually a fairly common thing. But again, it's, you know, the old saying that with people you get two things, what they want to show you and what you want to see. And, you know, look, we don't know for sure what the status of that relationship was,

but would it make sense to you that there was some sort of romantic element involved based on the allegations, based on the closeness of these two women? Do you think it affects that? the analysis in any way? It does in the sense that it changes the boundaries, right? So it changes the agenda of the parties involved. And if someone is romantically involved, that would be inherently a conflict. And maybe they wouldn't be so quick to report things and to be upfront if they had a romantic interest in the other party.

I want to also take a look at this piece that Sherry had shared with People magazine. Because in it, Sherry remembers confronting her mom and confronting her about what I mentioned before leaving her siblings home alone. So this is what it says. Ruby's face contorted with anger and hurt. I can't believe you called the police on me. On me, she began, her voice rising. After everything I've done for you, after all the sacrifices I've made,

how could you betray me like that, Shari? How could you be so selfish? The words hit me like physical blows, but I stood my ground, that I wasn't alone, that I had support beyond the toxic web of my family. selfish, I repeated, finding strength in my voice. I was worried about the kids. They were alone for five days, mom, five days. They're fine, Ruby snapped.

They're old enough to take care of themselves. This is about you, Shari, your jealousy, your need for attention. I felt a bubble of hysterical laughter rise in my throat. How could she twist this around, make it about me? But then, wasn't that always her way? Dr. Bober, your reaction? I think Ruby is very cunning and very minnesota. manipulative. And I think she's using that against Sherry to try to control her, to try to make her feel guilty.

But I think Sherry did the right thing. I think she was trying to protect these kids. And Ruby knew how to manipulate it and how to twist it and basically make herself the victim. Interesting for somebody who claims that she was controlled by Jody Hildebrandt, that she was exerting that level of control too. Or she takes no responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to to that in a bit. I want to get to that in a second because it's important to lay this out and then talk about what Ruby had to say. So the idea also, by the way, that the kids, you know, the kids take care of themselves. And it goes back to that idea, Dr. Bober, of self-sufficiency. We all want our children to be self-sufficient to a point, but these are young children. And I always found

it interesting. She wants them to act like adults, but she punished them and took away their food in water and force them to do things as a child. And I find that so disturbing, that level of, you know, again, it goes back to that other video that was posted where her young daughter, her youngest daughter was expected to bring her own lunch. And if she starts, she doesn't eat, she doesn't eat. What does that tell you? So there are different styles of parenting. This was what we would call authoritarian parenting, which is based on strict rules, high expectations, no room for negotiation and harsh punishment. That was taken to the extreme here. Authoritative parenting, on the other hand, is parenting that's based on firm but fair expectations, open communication, sort of negotiation, encouraging independence, but still doing it in a nurturing environment.

But the point is, you can't put the burden on the children who lack the emotional and intellectual maturity to make these decisions. And you certainly can't punish them like adults when they have a childhood understanding of their environment. Yeah. That's one of the more disturbing aspects of this. Going back to this passage, though, from Sherry's book, it continues, this isn't about me, I said my voice steadier than I felt. It's about the safety of my siblings. It's about doing what's right. Ruby's eyes flashed dangerously. What's right? You have no idea what's right. You're just a child playing at being an adult. Your siblings are terrified of you now for calling the police on them. Ruby's face hardened, her lips twisting into a sneer. One day, Sherry, you'll come crawling back to me, begging for my forgiveness, and it'll be

hard for me to give it to you, but I'll be gracious. I'm not going to apologize for telling the truth I said, my voice quiet but firm. Dr. Bober, what do you make of that interaction? It almost sounds like she's talking to her like she's a possession that she owns rather than a child that she's supposed to nurture, and that's very disturbing. And then it continues, I could feel the tears streaming down my face hot and sticky on my cheek. weeks. You've always hated me, she whispered. Ever since you were five years old, I could see it in your eyes. The way you looked at me, the way you judged me. You've never appreciated everything I've done for you, all the sacrifices I've made. That's not true, I choked. I never

hated you, Mom. I was just scared of you. You know, that is very, very telling, right, Dr. because it almost reminds me of some of Ruby's journal writings, where she talked about not recognizing her youngest children anymore, even describing her son as a snake who slithers and sneaks around looking for opportunities. A lot of biblical imagery there, but, you know, it's interesting because this is some of the ambivalence that we see in victims of abuse. They know they're abused, they know they're hurt, they're beaten down, but yet they still have an instinct to protect their parents. So they have these conflicting feelings of wanting to be helped, but also wanting to protect their tormentor

at the same time, which is very distressing for them. But this is such a, if you take these, this conversation is true, that is a very deep-rooted, I don't know if the word is resentment towards her children or anger towards her children, but for her to say that to her own daughter, it says something about Ruby Frankie that might go deeper than just her interaction with Jody Hildebrandt. Probably it says something about Ruby's own trauma and her own childhood. She didn't learn this parenting style from thin air or from Google. I mean, this is something that she probably experienced herself, and maybe she wasn't equipped

to really raise these kids if some of these allegations are true. But Dr. Broba, for her to say this, does this seem like the same woman who when she pled guilty, We talked about it before. She apologized for what she did. She blamed Jody Hildebrand. She said she was manipulated. That 180 at the time was shocking because you wonder was she just asking for leniency. How could she go from being so brainwashed?

I remember the videos of her not even responding to police when they were asking her questions to her saying these things or allegedly saying these things to Shari Frankie. And now, you know, she realizes the fault in her way. She lost her children. She did everything wrong. Did that seem genuine to you, especially now we're learning about these other new conversations? It's difficult to know. It's one of those things. Did she change her tune because she got caught? Did she change her tune because she wanted leniency from the court? Obviously, she has an incentive.

She has an agenda to say what the court wants her to say, what she's supposed to say. Did she really believe it? It's very hard to know. You know, as far as what Sherry Frankie believes, she spoke to Good Morning America upon the release of her book. And she said, I think that meaning her mother, I think that she's as sorry as she can be, what she has done is so bad that I don't think her mind allows her to kind of fully comprehend the guilt of all that. And so I think that she probably genuinely believed everything she said. I don't believe it, though. What do you think about that? Well, I think what she's saying is sort of what I said before, that that is the best apology that she is equipped to provide, that you're not going to get any deeper than that.

and maybe she just doesn't know any better. And she cannot take on the full weight of what she's done because emotionally she could not handle it and it would be too much for her to bear. You know, Dr. Bober, Shari also said this and I wanted your perspective on it. Sometimes I'll see myself in the mirror and I'm like, oh my gosh, I look like her

or I sound like her, but I don't want to be anything like her. Dr. Bober, children who are escaping the pain inflicted by their parents, this must happen a lot. their faces are reminders, right? Absolutely. And usually one of two things happen. Either the cycle of abuse continues or the child grows up and decides that they don't want to be anything like their parent with their own children. Do you ever see a reconciliation here?

You know, you ever see them? I don't know if Shari or any of the children would ever be open to it. But in your experience, do you ever see, you know, whether she's still in prison or when she gets released, Do you ever see Ruby Frankie making amends with her children in some way? Maybe down the line, but I'll tell you something. I think if the kids are able to forgive, maybe it will be more for them and their peace than it will be for Ruby. Maybe they'll come to terms with it. Maybe they'll find their own peace and be able to forgive her so that they can move on,

not necessarily for Ruby's benefit. And I believe Sherry Frankie had told ABC Good Morning America about forgiveness. but what that looks like, we shall see. Dr. Bober, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate you taking the time. My pleasure, Jesse. All right, everybody. That's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar.

Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this long crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.