Law&Crime Sidebar - Ruby Franke: Johnny Depp’s Lawyer Reacts to Horrific Photos, Videos in Child Abuse Case

Episode Date: March 30, 2024

Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt’s crimes against Franke’s two youngest children are in the spotlight as Utah officials release hours of video of the home where the young children were abused for months. Both Franke and Hildebrandt entered guilty pleas to aggravated child abuse and were sent to prison. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber analyzes the most chilling evidence against the two abusers.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Get 50% off of confidential background reports at https://www.truthfinder.com/lcsidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. He said he was tied on the ground with a rope. That's where the wounds came from. But why are you coming into my house without a certain voice? We'll explain it after this. But that doesn't make sense. Jody denies everything. She denies having anything to do with this, and I was shocked. The evidence Utah police had against former influencers and convicted child abusers,

Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrand, has been released to the public. And honestly, it is even worse than many of us have expected. We're analyzing some of the biggest revelations from the evidence release with Ben Shue, famed defense attorney for actor Johnny Depp during his defamation trial. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. The abuse that Ruby Frankie's two youngest children endured started to come to light in August of 2023 when Ruby's youngest son identified as R.F. managed to escape from Jody's home in Ivan's Utah and run to a neighbor asking for him to call the police.

Yes. Hi. How is wondering if he could do two favors? Well, what are they? taking me to the nearest police station. Well, actually, just one's fine. What's going on, son? I have a seat there.

It's personal business. Have a seat. What's your name? It's how you did it. New video files released by Utah official shows us what RF look like when he got to that home. Amaciated with. duct tape on his wrists and ankles. It is a horrifying site. And then EF, his younger sister, nine years old, was found in a similar condition inside of a closet-like room in the house.

That launched a huge investigation into Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrand. They were ultimately arrested, charged, pled guilty, and sentenced to consecutive terms of aggravated child abuse. For that, I want to bring in Ben Shue, famed defense attorney who represented Johnny Depp during his massive defamation trial. He's a friend of the next. network, friend of the show, friend of mine. I feel good saying it. Ben Shue, good to see you. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me, Jesse. Great to see you again. Great to see you. Let me just start off. We just watched that video of Ruby Frankie's youngest son asking for help. And thank goodness he did, because a big question is if he didn't, would he or a sister even be alive? What was your reaction to seeing that? Well, Jesse, I am the father of two boys, one who just celebrated his 12th birthday.

And I became emotional watching that. Children that age are really vulnerable, as you know, and it was just pathetic and heart-wrenching to see. Yeah. And, you know, we know what first responders encountered when they race to that home. Let's take a look. How did you get the ropes on you? Who did them? You're not in trouble with me.

Okay? We're just trying to figure out what's going on. our main focus right now is you okay who put the ropes on you what's to help you what now obviously it was bleeped out um this is a minor child but having said that when I look at this kind of evidence Ben it's not surprising they pled guilty I don't know how they would have mounted a defense when you have this kind of evidence these kinds of victims explaining what happened I agree with you, Jesse. There's no defense of that. If you look at him, he's so emaciated, he's wasted away to nothing, and how anybody could torture a little boy like that or a little girl, because the girl was also treated horrifically. It's beyond comprehension.

Let's move on. I want to get your reaction to this next part, which I thought was fascinating, when officers knocked on the door, the home of Jody Hilda Branch, she answered, apparently already on the phone with her attorney. Police officers open up. Got movement right here. Right there. Contact. Got moving my door! Open the door! Jody?

I need you step out. I have my turn. That's great. Step out of the house. No, I'm not going to step out of the house. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa! Go! Wait a minute, how do you come to my house?

Look! Take one into my house. Just have a seat right there. Do you have a search warrant? Have a seat right there. Do you have a search warrant? Have a seat right there. I'll explain everything after.

I have a seat right there. Do you have a search warrant, sir? Control 12X-11, can you hold the air? We're searching the house. I can tell you what's in the house. Okay, just have a seat right there for me. Do you have a search warrant? We'll explain it after this.

You can't just come into my house without a search warrant. We'll explain everything after this, ma'am. We will get more to that in a little bit, but your initial reaction to seeing her being taken out of that house so that they ultimately do find that nine-year-old girl in there. Again, extraordinary. And as you noted, she had the presence of mind or consciousness of guilt to know to call her attorney.

And but to have the temerity to call the police, to call them, their conduct into question when she had a tortured girl inside her house is nothing short of extraordinary. She may not think she did anything wrong, which will get into. to in a little bit. But let's focus on Ruby Frankie. We will get to Jody Hildebrand in a minute. So this is the mother of those two children, found to be basically starving. And from the time the police detained her at Jody's home, she didn't say a word to officer. She was very silent. She was held in a small living room or living area with an officer monitoring her. And after more than an hour, a female investigator comes in to pat her down and put her in handcuffs.

Take a look. All right. Well, it feels good in the air. Hey, I've already asked this, and I move it, so that you're already detained, but I'm going to be taking back to the police department. Okay, so I'm going to be pop up if I can fit through here. You want to put on one of our vehicles? Yeah, you want. Okay, just place your hands on your back for me. Perfect.

And then, right now, I can put a finger in each of these, okay? and I'm just going to double up this so they don't tighten up on you on the way out there. Where's your car? Yeah. You don't have anything on me that I should know about correct? Any weapons, anything that we're going to find. Before you put you in a police vehicle, we need to search your person to make sure you don't have anything on you. Is there anything you have on you?

Okay. I'm going to search you before we put you. in his car. That's just protocol. So I'm just going to have you step right over here. And then just widen your waist, right in your stance. Yep, perfect. Are you wearing the Burma? Okay. I'm just going to go like this through and make sure you don't have anything. So then later on, Ruby revealed in a jail phone call that she deliberately didn't say anything to the officer. Seems like that was the advice of her counsel or something that she thought from the advice of her counsel. And once they're at the station, the officer monitoring Ruby tells the investigator that they might have

trouble getting any information out of her then you're a defense attorney a lot of the time that's the advice don't say anything until you have a lawyer she really took it to heart didn't even say like no i don't have a brought just shook her head very stoic what'd you make of it yeah i i was struck by the the contrast you noted between her and hilderbrand that she was much more passive when you really would have thought the opposite this is the mother of these two children of the six children and she acted, you know, completely without any affect or emotion, you would have, you would have thought the opposite. Would that have hurt her a trial?

I mean, because on one hand, you could say, look, she didn't want to say anything, she's waiting for attorney. But if that video like that played at her trial, would somebody, would the jury look at and say, she seems really cold, really defiant, almost annoyed at officers? And we'll get into it a little bit, but do you think that would have hurt her? I do, Jesse. I think that would have been, I think that would have been very negative for her at trial. and that, as you suggested, that may have played into her ultimate decision to play to the four accounts.

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You can easily do that on TruthFinder. And right now, you can get 50% off of confidential background reports. Just go to truthfinder.com slash LC Sidebar. Hope you check it out. So let's now take a look at Ruby's police interview or maybe I should say lack thereof. look. So first are you, do you live down here or, or do you live up north? Do you want to talk to me about where you live or how many kids you have? So we just spoke with your husband and he said you guys have six kids. Are those all together? Are those all you more kids?

I can wait all day. So it's up to you if you want to talk to us about what's going on. Would you feel more comfortable talking to one of us? Maybe I can step out for you know. Or if you feel more comfortable talking to him, I can step out. I'll wait tired of a lawyer. So Ben, again, very stoic, doesn't, only wants a lawyer. How do you think that would play?

What is your reaction to it? Again, I think it plays very poorly, very unnatural for a mother who was accused under suspicion of child abuse for her not to defend herself or to make some kind of excuse to act like a professional criminal and seek out a lawyer. It just, I think it would play horribly to a jury. And we know that when you request a lawyer that can't be used against her, right? I mean, that wouldn't have necessarily been used against her. It's her right to have a lawyer, although maybe it could. I guess the question I have is when I look at that, I remember during her sentencing, and we'll get to it in a little bit where she talks about this distrust that she has of law enforcement.

But, you know, some people could look at that and say, you know, maybe she was so manipulated by Jody Hildebrand and this organization that, no wonder she didn't say anything to law enforcement. I wonder from a defense perspective, of course she's going to act that. way. She was manipulated into thinking law enforcement were the bad guys and that what she was doing was right. You think that could have ever been a viable defense? It could have been a defense. Whether it's viable really depends on the gullibility of the jury. But I think you're right. I think a defense lawyer in that position has to be creative and has to come up with an alternative theory to explain as much of the objective facts as you can. And that of being brainwashed or so thoroughly manipulated by

the other defendant is as good as a theory as she could have come up with. Well, I will tell you, once Ruby Frankie was locked up, she had these phone calls with her husband, Kevin. And at first, right after the arrest, she seems almost indignant that this happened. Take a look. This is the witchment. The devil's been after me for years.

That might be a reference to the idea that she's faced criticism for years about the video she posted. But a few months later, Ruby had completely changed her tune, or seemingly, saying that time away from Jody Hildebrand helped to realize that she had been brainwashed. Let's play that. Jody denies everything. She denies having anything to do with this,

and I was shocked. I was like, what? And I'm still telling Lamar, like, you know, all of the justifications and all of this. You know, I'm talking like a criminal. I sound like a mad person. He was so patient with me. He was so patient with me.

He would just look at me and, like, kind of dumbfounded, like I said, two plus two is seven, and I really believed it, and he would just stare at me. I'm like, what am I saying? That's so off. And, but that's because I really believed it. But then when I heard that Jody was not talking like that, she was denying the whole thing, it told me she knew all along. And then I was like, crap, what am I?

down. And that's when things kind of started turning. I was like, she was, she's not been honest. I didn't know she wasn't honest. I didn't know she was lying. And it's like, what else has she been lying about? Where else are, have I been deceived? So, Ben, that certainly seems like a 180 there. What's your take on it? Yeah, it's definitely a 180. Whether it's convincing or not. I don't find it convincing at all. I mean, these are her children. And she had the ultimate responsibility. She and her husband had the ultimate responsibility over their well-being. I understand that he left back in 2002, and I wonder to what extent, what inkling he had of what was going on. He says he had no idea this was going on, that he was living separately. Remember,

these are two people. If you take everything they say is true, they were part of this organization. They were part of these programs where they were made to feel that isolation was the best thing, that he had to repent for his sins, that he didn't really understand what his sins were, that Ruby was warped up in all this. And I'll give you an example. So Ruby entered a guilty plea to four counts of aggravated child abuse. And as part of her plea deal, two of the six counts were dropped. But at her sentencing in February, Ruby seemed, or at least tried to come off as remorseful. And it seems consistent with what we heard in that phone call. For the past four years, I've chosen to follow counsel and guidance that has led me into a dark

dilution. My distorted version of reality went largely unchecked as I would isolate from anyone who challenged me. I was led to believe that this world was an evil place, filled with cops who control hospitals that injure, government agencies that brainwash, church leaders who lie and lust, husbands who refuse to protect, and children who need abused. My choice to believe and behave this paranoia culminated into criminal activity, for which I stand before you today, ready to take accountability. So, Ben, what do we think? You think she's telling the truth? Did she really come around, or is she just trying to find some sort of leniency?

Because, again, while the judge couldn't set the ultimate sentence, the Board of Pardons and Paroles will, and I'm sure anything that she says will be used either for or against her. But you tell me, you believe it? Personally, I don't, but I'm not a mental health expert. It certainly was her best move to act contrite and to go along with the program and to appear to be taking responsibility. But I just think the depth and the repetition of the acts to which she has admitted suggests something far darker. All right. Talking about more sinister, more darker, let's move on to Jody Hildebrandt because her co-defendant, she was a therapist offering mental health guidance, life coaching advice through her business called Connections.

At some point, summer of 2023, Ruby moved into Jody's home and Ivan's hours away from the Frankie family home in Springville with her two youngest children, RF and EF. And based on some of Ruby's journal entries, it seemed that Jody believed the children were possessed by demons needed to be fixed. In fact, Kevin Frankie, in his interview with police, talked about almost a supernatural element when it came to Jody Hildebrand and things would be moving and shifting and noises and the children.

She thought she was possessed. It was weird, weird stuff. But going back to what we played earlier, when police showed up at her door on August 30th, she was irate that officers didn't show her a warrant. What your perspective on this? But why are you coming into my house without a search warrant? Well, explain it after this.

But that doesn't make sense. You come into my house and do what you want, and then you tell me you don't have a warrant? No, we'll explain why we did. But don't you have to have a warrant? Not at this moment. We're here on exigent circumstances. And I'll explain it after.

after this, after my sergeant and the officer are done clearing the house. You are supposed to announce yourself and explain the purpose. Not yet, but I can do that with you on the phone. But again, there won't be any dialogue. We received a report of an emaciated juvenile that had duct tape around his extremities that was asking for food and water. And based on that information, there are other people

the home, so we're ensuring that there is nobody else in the same condition. Talk to me about exigent circumstances and what's going on here, Ben. I thought the police handled themselves extremely well. That is an exception. And when you have one child who has evidence of being tortured and indicia that there might be others in danger within the premises, it seems like they were well within their rights to proceed. In fact, I thought they gave her an extraordinary amount of due process under the

circumstances. Quite remarkable that, as you said, she came out swinging. I guess the best defense is a good offense. Now, Jody was arrested. She was taken into custody. Investigators put her in an interview room as well, but unlike Ruby, Jody does speak with them a bit. We're just here to talk, to your side. And right now we're just asking you just a cool questions by telling you lived here, that kind of thing. The watch she made detective movies. How ya? Which one's your favorite? Me too.

You can't. Honestly, I sit there and I'm married and I sit there and watch those with my wife and I say that we don't, that's not how we do. That's not right. So don't take, there's some good ones out there, don't even wrong. Most of them are probably in the office. We're not as mean. I won't get up and beach up. We don't do that.

We just want to get to know you a little, so if you just kind of want to share a little about yourself and and what brought you down here? So I trust my turning. He said, don't say anything. And I said, I have nothing to hide. And he's like, I know that, but just let me be there with you when we talk. So you guys seem nice people. Yeah.

I'm not having to be difficult. This is really, if you knew all the pieces, I think you'd have a lot of anything for what's going on. That's really lower. That's what we're looking for. And you're an adult. And the thing about our interview, if we ask you any questions that you don't want to answer, you can just tell us, I don't want to answer that question.

But we do want to have a basis and an understanding of what's going on in that home or what went on up north that brought them into your home. And so if you want to share any of that and you don't want to answer any other questions, that's okay. I'd like to just tell you, but I don't know who you are. I don't know if you're going to flip my words. I don't know. And that's the good thing about cameras. everything it's pretty much double recorded audio video and it's for the safety

for you and for us because we don't want to flip your words and this will all be pretty much right there to support you so we're not going to use anything against you he's an honest good man his church I trust him why would he say that to me then I don't know your attorney be honest well I'm just saying he's he's a good honest man yeah I'm an honest person as well, so we get a long rate. And he just said, do not say anything. The whole reason we're sitting here today is we just, there's a lot of questions we have that we just may be a misunderstandings, but we just need to clarify.

I know, and I'd love to tell you if he were here, because I don't know, I don't, I don't, I don't know what's going to happen with what I say, you know? I, I watch, I'm a psychologist. I've watched people flip things all the time. So I get it. And I sit on your side. I get it. Now, Ben, Jody, did end up deciding that she would have to wait for her attorney to be present before she answered any more questions. I can't, I don't know if I falter so much because in a way, she's saying, I want to tell you my side of story.

I do. My attorney's telling me to wait. I don't know if that's bad advice or a bad position to be taking there, given the circumstances. Yeah, her affect is quite different. I mean, we saw how defiant she was when the. police came to her door, to me, she looked extremely scared at this point. The reality of her predicament seems to have really hit her. She seemed almost like a different person the way she was reaching out as far as she thought she could and to try to engender some sympathy by the

police officers. But she also said something interesting when she referred to her own powers in her professional capacity of being able to manipulate and twist the words of others, which I didn't think was the right purpose of a therapist. I wonder if she would say, no, I'm not saying I would do it. I'm saying I watch how people do it. Maybe that's how she would defend herself. But I wonder what she would have told them. I imagine that it could be very consistent with what we are about to hear because, or maybe not.

because when she was locked up, Jody's phone calls, jailhouse phone calls, always recorded, as we were discussing earlier with Ruby, but her jailhouse phone calls were recorded. And it kind of gives you an idea of her reaction to her arrest. Not sure this is what she would have said to investigators, but let's listen to this. It feels like I was being set up to end up here. I know that sounds bizarre. I mean, I should be here. I haven't done anything wrong. Nobody wants the truth.

Nobody wants the truth. Nobody wants the truth because these kids, you know, I told Doug, I woke up, the spirit told It's all the devil, I mean, you've seen him. I mean, I've known you, what, for five years, you've watched him, come at me, come at me, come at me, come at me, come at me. And you're exactly right, because he knows, I know what he's doing, and he uses these kids, and he uses all of us as the adults, the parents that don't hold the kids accountable. So now it's abusive to make a kid sleep on the floor. It's abusive.

Or it's abusive to, you know, that's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. You can't even raise your kids anymore. He doesn't seem really animated. He seems like, you know, the pictures are going to destroy you. And I'm like, we didn't do that. We didn't do that. Those pictures we did not do.

He did that to himself, yes. If we put that on him and then he rubbed around and cut himself, yes. But we didn't do that. things there. One, it almost seems to me like a justification for their tactics, but also that the injuries are not attributable to what they did, almost blaming this 12-year-old boy for what he did to himself. What did you make of that? That's exactly how I took it. She was angry at RF for causing his own injuries, which, you know, in the context of what we know that this kid was essentially waterboarded, put under water with a hand over his mouth.

his nose. I can't imagine anything more terrifying for a boy or any behavior that a boy would do that would justify him being bound with duct tape and not fed. I mean, there's just no excuse for that, but I agree with you. Her take seems to be very angry as if she somehow is the victim. And I will tell you, those jailhouse phone calls were previewed by the Washington County attorney during Jody Hildebrand's sentencing to give an idea that she's never been remorseful. So we listened to what she said on that jailhouse phone call, couple it with the fact that, yes, Jody took a plea deal, she pled guilty to the same aggravated child abuse charges as Ruby. But at her sentencing, she didn't seem nearly as remorseful as Ruby did. And again, based on those jailhouse phone calls, it doesn't seem like she accepts any responsibility. Let's listen to this. I sincerely love these children. I desire for them to heal physically and emotionally.

One of the reasons I did not go to trial, so I did not want them to emotionally relive the experience which would have been detrimental to them. My hope and prayer is that they will heal and move forward to have beautiful lives. I am willing to submit to what the state feels would be an appropriate amount of time served to make restribution as an outcome. What do we think, Ben? I hate to sound cynical, but I don't buy it at all. I think it's completely different from that jailhouse call, which sounds uninhibited, and her true feelings, which is that these children were somehow demonic or, or,

at least causing of their own problems and that she was doing what was right and that she was the one that nobody else wants to hear the truth and she was the one who gave them the tough love that they required so i don't think she was contrite yeah and both ruby and jody they were sentenced to four terms to run consecutively one after the other in utah it's not actually up to the judge to decide the sentence instead it's up to the board of pardons and paroles to decide when they're released we're talking about a one to 15 year sentence for each charge but my understanding is the law indicates they can't serve more than 30 years in total. So what we're really talking about is maybe four to 30 years in prison for each of them.

But Ben, overall, after looking at this, do you think the videos, the photos, the audio calls, do you think this is all going to have an impact on the parole board's decision? And who do you think would end up serving more time? Boy, that's a great question. I think, Jesse, that it will have an impact. And I think even though you could argue that Hilderbrand, who was not, didn't even feign much contrition, would get a harder sentence or longer time, I think the board may well go back to the fact that Ruby is the mother. I mean, it's Ruby's responsibility. It doesn't get Hildebrand off the hook at all.

But who could possibly allow this to happen to one's own children? I mean, when you have a child, your life changes. It's not just about you anymore. It's about the child. It is her responsibility and that of her husband to make sure that no harm comes to them. So I don't think she gets a lighter sentence no matter what, no matter what contrition she may or may not have shown. I think she's going to do the long haul along with Hildebrand. What a disturbing case and equally disturbing materials that were released that gives us a lot more context, unfortunately, into what happened and a lot more details about what happened.

Ben Shue, always a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much, my friend. Thank you, Jesse. Great to see you. All right, everybody. That is all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series, ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.