Law&Crime Sidebar - Ruby Franke’s Oldest Son Speaks Out

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

Chad Franke, the eldest son of former family vlogger and convicted child abuser Ruby Franke is opening up about his experience growing up in the family’s Utah home as their fame grew bigger and bigger. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber spoke with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober about a new documentary on the horrific abuse that led to Franke’s arrest and imprisonment.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/sidebar to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger, Christina O'Shea & Christina FalconeScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. If I hear you one more word, get out. Chad Frankie, the son of convicted child abuser Ruby Frankie, is speaking out in a brand new documentary. We are going to break down these revelations and what impact his mom may have had on him. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

Do you want to start dating? Like, I don't know if I've ever asked you that. I just assumed that you didn't. Because you've never asked. I wouldn't care if I started dating, but I'm 13 and I feel like I'm too young. Okay. I'll probably start doing around 16. Okay.

That's fair enough. You know that you can always come talk to me, right? You ever want to. Good talk. Okay, we got to talk about Chad Frankie. He is a key figure in the saga of his mother, Ruby Frankie, the mommy vlogger who started the popular YouTube channel 8 passengers. that had hundreds and hundreds of videos of her and her then husband and kids

boasted more than 2 million subscribers only for her to then turn into a convicted felon. Yes, she and her business partner, Jody Hildebrand, pled guilty to child abuse charges, and they are sitting in prison for the incredibly physical mistreatment of Ruby's two youngest children. And while we have covered episodes before about statements from Kevin Frankie, Ruby's estranged husband who filed for divorce, her eldest daughter, Shari Frankie, who not only wrote a memoir and testified at a legislative hearing advocating for the protection and compensation of children of content creators. And on that note, by the way, as we talked about in a previous episode of Sidebar recently, the words of the couple's other two daughters, they wrote letters about family blogging as well. We've heard about them. But now we are hearing from Chad Frankie, and we are hearing from him in a brand new document.

I want to quickly thank Upside for sponsoring this episode of Sidebar as we continue our coverage of the Frankie case. And it is great if you don't know what it is. It is a free app that gets you cash back on daily essentials like gas, groceries, food. I pump my gas. I can use Upside. I go out to lunch, I can use Upside. Maybe I go to 7-Eleven and get some gum or Tic Tacs. I can use Upside. Why not get cash back when I do all these things, right? And yes, this is actual real cashback. It's money that appears in your Upside app that you transfer right into your bank account. So once you have the free upside app you claim an offer for whatever you're buying on upside you pay as usual using a debit or credit card you follow the steps on the app you get paid so to find out how much you can earn

click the link in the description to download upside or scan the QR code on screen and make sure to use our promo code sidebar because you'll get an extra 25 cents back on every gallon on your first tank of gas chad is a key figure actually you may recall that sherry in her book she accused her brother of becoming more and more rebellious and acting out and he knew how to manipulate people and how in August of 2018, the family had the opportunity to do this big brand collaboration with Universal Studios Hollywood. They were even given early access to the park to do some filming. But Chad had apparently been obstinate, refused to cooperate. He photo bombed Ruby's solo shots, that kind of thing. So he was banished back to the hotel while the family stayed, but you

got to get this, according to Sherry. Chad managed to sneak out, take a taxi back to Universal studios and he basically was like hanging out in the park on his own. Now, Ruby, Kevin, they were apparently livid. They decided they had to take some major steps to get Chad under control. By the way, Chad was featured very heavily in so many of these videos. So a lot of people knew who he was. But that is when Ruby heard about Jody Hildebrand, this licensed mental health counselor who was gaining a reputation as this miracle worker within the LDS community. Now, Shari wrote in her book, they were on a mission to find the perfect person to crack his code and rewire him to their liking, which is how the monster came into our lives, referring to Jody Hildebrand.

Now, Jody Hildebrandt, who had been counseling the family, suggested that the Frankies send Chad to a wilderness camp for troubled teens in Arizona. It's called Anasazi, and the Pope was that it would straighten him out. Now, Shari says that Chad actually enjoyed much of his time there. He was able to be out in nature. He didn't have a camera stuck in his face 24 hours a day, but after what was a 49-day program, which cost $13,000, by the way. It was back to Utah, back to content creation and back to his one-on-one sessions with his new therapist, Jody Hildebrand. And then there is the beanbag video. My bedroom was taken away for seven months and then you give it back like a couple

weeks ago. I don't think our viewers know that. I'm sleeping on a beanbag. I'll sleep it on a bean back since October. And they gave my room back like two weeks ago. I'll give you the reason why I lost my bedroom. I think so. I think this is the reason. At least this is the reason that's been in my head. It's pretty funny, but now that I look back, it's pretty depressing. No, we never told our viewers that I woke up at two in the morning and told him that we're going to Disneyland and he has to pack and you got up and made his bed all neatly and then packed all his clothes in the suitcase and then he walked up the door and I'm like, he was like, what? And he's all happy has his sunglasses on and I was like, we're not going to do you in. And he started crying and

hitting him and then you went back to bed in tears and then so that that was that was not the reason you lost your room but that was the other reasons because I pointed a BB gun on his face pointed a BB gun at his face and hung him on the basketball it's not funny basically basically Chad the day I got home to Chad came home from Anasazi and... Like, I want to try junking the basketball and I lifted him up on the ring. And he was... And he left him there.

And he was just hanging on there. Do you think it's funny because... And then I walk out. If you think it's funny, then you... That was seven months ago. Maybe you need longer without a bedroom. It... No.

It was not funny. Chad showed that he was not able to manage himself sharing a bedroom with... So when we moved, the bigger room in the basement was automatically his, and I didn't have a room, but we, like, put one on hold for me. So a lot of you are like, hey, that's not fair because Chad got the bigger, the lesser bedroom and... The smaller bedroom. The small bedroom. The big bedroom and Chad got the smaller bedroom and... Bigger bedroom also had a bathroom.

But what you guys didn't know was... Chad didn't get any room. any room. He didn't, he didn't get anything. He was sleeping on the floor in the family room. Can't emphasize enough how important that video is because apparently after that video was published, this couple, Kevin and Ruby, received a wave of criticism by viewers. They were calling them abusive and, you know, looking into their lives and looking into their past videos. The channel was eventually shut down and actually, according to Kevin Frankie and this new Hulu documentary, which we're going to be talking about. That video, according to Kevin Frankie, quote, was the spark that blew the

powder keg. When this video hit, all hell broke loose. Viewers started calling them sick. Now, the reason I have been talking so much about Chad is because he is featured quite heavily in this new documentary airing on Hulu. It's called Devil in the Family, the Fall of Ruby Frankie. And it features interviews including with Kevin, Sherry, and Chad. And it's Chad we really want to focus on because we haven't heard a lot from him during the course of this whole saga. You just wanted to show the view of a Mormon happy family, but they only saw what we wanted to show them. Okay, so to break down what Chad had to say, I want to bring back onto sidebar, psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, a doctor, thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate you taking the time.

We talked earlier this week about those legislative hearings about content creation and children, so I'm happy to have you back here to talk once again about the Chad Frankie, yeah, the Chad Frankie situation. Now, I know you haven't had the opportunity to meet or interview any of these individuals, but putting that to the side, I am interested in your analysis and your view on all this. So first, let me ask you, is it important for them to be able to tell their stories in this way on a documentary? I do think so. I think it gives them some sort of validation, you know, probably somewhere between half and three quarters of us have been through some sort of psychological trauma. And part of that process, which is deeply personal and nonlinear, is to, of course, recognize and accept the trauma

and also to have your feelings validated, your emotions validated, you know, anger, fear, shame, humiliation. These are all part of things that people go through when they're traumatized. So I do think it is important for them to be able to tell their story to the world. and I think that will give them some sense of validation and empowerment. One of the things that Kevin actually said is, quote, one of the things that's been so frustrating for me has been feeling silenced or muzzled, not being able to speak and having people make assumptions that just aren't accurate. This is my ability to take control of my own story and speak in my own words.

Now, I want to talk about Chad. So in one scene, there's a video where Ruby appears to order Chad to smile. and he says, you know, I hate smiling at lenses, okay, and you can see he's uncomfortable. Now, Chad would go on to say in his interview, I really don't want anything to do with YouTube. It bugged the crap out of me. I hated it. And there was a time, maybe even a year or more, where I truly hated her, referring to Ruby Frankie, his mother. Doctor, what do you take away from that? Well, I think they had tremendous resentment against her for not being able to be their true authentic self for always having to play to the camera. After a while, I think a lot of anger

was building up and it finally boiled over. If that resentment starts at a young age, how does it build exactly? Is it different than if some resentment builds at a later stage at life? I mean, particularly young children, what should we be thinking about there? So obviously with young children, they may act out. So you may see things like stomach aches, like throwing up, not wanting to go to school. These are things you would. would see in really young children. But as kids get older and they're able to verbalize their feelings, they're able to communicate these things better. And then in teenagers, you might see apathy, you might see substance use, engaging in impulsive or risky behavior. These are all

communications to the adults around them that they've gone through some kind of trauma or they might be depressed. What are the dangers of putting a child through all this, putting them on camera, putting them on YouTube, putting them for the world to see? We talked about it in our last episode, but obviously it's been amplified because of the documentary. What are the dangers of this? Well, you know, kids, when they're being raised, they're supposed to go through certain stages of development, to develop their own identity, their independence and autonomy. If they're constantly on camera, and we've seen this with other famous people who started out, for example, as child actors or entertainers, for example, Michael Jackson, they never get to

develop a childhood. They never develop those peer support network. they never get to be a kid. And so the problem with that is that can affect their development in so many different ways from their romantic relationships to even something like trying to find a job because they don't have that social competence. They don't have the ability that an adult would have that they would learn in childhood to become an independent person. And that's why I think these conversations are important, the conversations that are coming out during the course of the documentary, the conversations that were coming out during the legislative hearings when you heard the letters from the children when you heard from Kevin and Frankie. You know, it's important

to understand and put in context about what it means to put your children on a social media platform or a YouTube platform for the world to see. Now, I have to mention this part. So another point in the documentary, he basically, Chad, accused his mom, Ruby, of blowing up off camera. And there's a difference between the image she put on, you know, a passenger's and what was going on behind the scenes. He says that she would spank, whip, take the belt out and whip my butt, pull down my pants, whip me. And Sherry even said that Chad was beaten so badly that she had to ate him. She had to clean blood off the walls. Talk to me about that, doctor. If that is true, beating your own child like that, aside from the physical effects of that, what are the

psychological effects of that? Well, there is abuse here on so many different levels. levels, you know, psychologically, emotionally, physically. Kids who are abused have all kinds of problems, not all of them, but many of them do. Again, depression, anxiety, PTSD, problems with sleep, problems with their romantic relationships going forward. It's very important for those kids to get therapy and sometimes they need medication to move forward. But this is a process that can take years, you know. It's important for them. to reestablish safety to remove themselves from that situation as quickly as possible and to be in a warm and nurturing environment and she clearly was unable to provide that and was doing it really

for very nefarious purposes why how can a parent do that how can a parent particularly if you're talking about ruby frankie who's putting off this image you know to the world to see even when she was working with jody hildebrandt but now we know what was going on behind the scenes with her two kids how can you create that separation? This is the face I'm putting for the public, and this is what I'm doing behind the scenes. Well, I think you would almost have to look at her background, right? What was her relationship like with her parents? How did she learn these parenting skills or lack thereof? It seemed really at the end of the day that projecting this image for profit, for notoriety, for fame, that became her first priority. So, I mean, I think you have to question it even from

the beginning of what her motives were. And they clear. were not benevolent and she was willing to put the kids up basically for sale for her own for her own notoriety and fame as i mentioned um chad was forced to have these therapy sessions with jody hildebrand and in the documentary he explains how he had to quote just put on a happy face in the effort to you know hope to get rid of her but he claims hilda brant saw right through him he she knew that he was lying about how he was feeling she called him out on it He said she really kind of just read through me and that really excited my mom that there's finally someone out there who isn't going to take my bull crap anymore.

So she was hooked on from that moment on. And we know that this resulted in Jody Hildebrand attaching to the family more began counseling Ruby and Kevin and Sherry. Talk to me about that, doctor. The idea of Jody Hildebrandt inserting herself into their lives. but the way she approached these counseling sessions. Yeah, you know, it's really, I'm very conflicted about where Jody fits in. You know, was she so persuasive that she was able to get them to do these things

or were they so open to suggestion that they were willing to do them? I mean, I think it's probably some combination thereof, but I think they do bear some personal responsibility in all this. It does feel almost like a cult in a way, right? You have someone who might be very charismatic, who's very dynamic, who's telling you to do something. And then you're being isolated from all the people around you that could say, hey, this is wrong. This person is taking advantage of you. But you engage in these behaviors because you really have almost no social referencing point, right?

You're isolated from people that could tell you that something is wrong here. So I think that is a very interesting dynamic. Yes. And let me ask you this. how does a person like Jody Hildebrand justify this? I mean, she was obviously pled guilty to these horrific charges. She, in her apology, it wasn't even really apology to the court. She said she loved the kids.

How does somebody like her justify what she did? You know, I would have to talk to her to find out to see what she would say, but I'm sure there's some rationalization in her mind. But I will say, I think there's all. larger commentary here on our society right you know whether we're talking about posting something on social media whether it be instagram or facebook people are always trying to portray a certain image and very often that image is different than the reality so in the age of social media of reality tv where you know something that seems as every day as the comings and goings

of a family has been essentially monetized i think we as a society bear a lot of of responsibility for causing this, not necessarily causing it to happen, but causing it to continue. And finally, when the beanbag video came out, you know, that's when all hell broke loose and the truth and the facade, you know, was finally broken down. But I think as a society, it's something we really need to look at. Who are the people that we are elevating and why are we doing it? What is the motivation? Are we looking for some kind of distraction from our lives? Because it seems like we're more interested in the image and the projection than the actual substance. That's fair. I hear you. I hear you. I will ask you, though, treating Chad, treating a child

is different than treating an adult, right? Isn't there a sense of sensitivity? You have to approach it differently? Yes, absolutely. You know, children obviously have a different level of emotional maturity that you have to be attuned to. You have to approach things differently. They have to feel safe they have to be able to trust you and that comes with building a rapport and building an alliance and that occurs sometimes it takes a while for that to happen talking about the trust listen to this so chad this is according to chad in the documentary he and kevin his father were essentially kicked out of the house when he was 17 years old by his own mother ruby and in a similar fashion to what kevin had said after ruby was arrested he felt that this was the right thing that this was the right

thing that he trusted Jody Hildebrand. Chad saying how he quote really believed Jody and my mom were God's chosen people. Jody was a business woman and she could pray on the week. She knew how to hit on a pain point, the biggest pain point for people in order to turn it into profit. The idea of agreeing to leave the house because that was what was best for the family, believing, you know, the words of Jody Hildebrand, what do you take away from that, doctor? Yeah, again, again, it feels very much like a cult, right? Jody is very predatory. She knows how to exploit people's weak points. She knows how to, you know, seek out and exploit their insecurities. And so, you know, when they hear advice from her, they believe it must be the right thing. But Chad probably did not

have the emotional maturity to go off on his own, to build a life for himself. So clearly, it was very misguided. And of course, we know Kevin was living away. separately from Ruby and the rest of the kids when she was arrested that he didn't know what was going on. He claimed that. He felt that he had to do this for his family. And it's interesting because Kevin tells People magazine, we were both really indoctrinated that we needed complete isolation in order to heal. And that if we were interacting with anybody that was contrary to the messaging that Jody and Ruby wanted us to accept and ingest, then we were being selfish and we were breaking the boundaries and the rules of the separation.

And he says his whole motive, Kevin says his whole motive and purpose was to get his family back. Dr. Bober, what do you make of that? Again, right out of the cult playbook, take your pick, Jim Jones, David Koresh. That's exactly what they do, right? You isolate people from the people that care about them, for the people that can give them contrary advice and you indoctrinate them. And Jody was very skilled at that. There are a lot of people who look at this and say, I hear it, I get it, but they still don't understand how Kevin could stay away and not even reach out to his children. But I will just say, if you look at the full 360-degree picture of this case and you hear all of Kevin Frankie's interviews with police, I think you'll get a different kind of picture of maybe what was going on. So it's hard to judge because I think once you go in there and see what this environment was like, it's,

scary to say the least now kevin also told people there's still a lot of pain there's still a lot of healing that i work on each day but it just looks and feels different now dr bober what is kevin's journey going to look like so kevin obviously is going to have to process the trauma uh he's going to have to rebuild meaning and purpose in his life or what we call post traumatic growth, acceptance, self-compassion, and ongoing self-care, reconnecting with others. But, you know, I want to say something. There's a larger message here about trauma. You know, some of the most interesting trauma work was done by Steve Southwick, who was one of my mentors. He was the deputy director of the National PTSD Center and Dennis Charney.

And what they looked at was they looked at the flip side of PTSD, of post-traumatic stress disorder. They looked at resilience, which is bouncing back from adversity, okay? And what they found was they interviewed all these people who had gone through horrible trauma. And the one thing that they found that was the one unifying message, and it seemed somewhat counterintuitive, was that when the people were asked if they could erase their trauma and they could make it go away like it never happened, they all said that they would not want that to happen, that they embraced their trauma because their trauma made them the people that they are. So trauma is not an on and off switch.

It's a process. It's about rebuilding your life and redefining meaning. It's like changing the emotional thermostat. And so those people, just like Kevin, are people that will have to find new meaning in their lives and a new sense of purpose. But maybe at the end of the day, they will emerge as stronger and more resilient people.

And you believe that for Chad, too, because I was going to ask what his journey looks like. And also, do you ever anticipate or preview what reconciliation with his mom might look like if that would ever to happen? I think it's going to take years to rebuild that trust, to get past that deep sense of betrayal. But I do think it's possible. Dr. Daniel Bober, thanks so much for coming on. Difficult subject matter, difficult case. But look, it's very interesting to hear their words, particularly chats, because we haven't heard so much from them.

thank you for taking the time. Appreciate it. Thanks, Jesse. All right, everybody. That's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Thank you so much for joining us. And please check us out and subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. Law and Crime series, ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.