Law&Crime Sidebar - Ruby Franke's Youngest Victim Speaks Out

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

Two of Ruby Franke’s daughters released statements about their childhood experiences as YouTube stars, as they showed support for a Utah bill that would regulate earnings from content creation. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber discusses their comments with psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:If you or a loved one have suffered physical or mental health issues due to video games, visit https://vgclaims.com/Sidebar to answer less than 10 questions and check your eligibility to file a claim!HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger, Christina O'Shea & Christina FalconeScript Writing & Producing - Savannah Williamson & Juliana BattagliaGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that will

keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Vlogging my family, putting my children into public social media was wrong and I regret it every day. More of the children have convicted child abuser Ruby Frankie are speaking out about their time as content fodder for Frankie's YouTube channel 8 passengers. Her now estranged husband has been pushing for legislation to protect child influencers, and the kids who were in the spotlight for so many years are making sure their voices are heard too. Welcome to Sidebar. Presented by Law and Crime, I'm Jesse Weber.

The six children of mommy vlogger turned convict Ruby Frankie are likely used to being observed. I mean, after all, their mom, Ruby Frankie, started her family-oriented YouTube channel 8 Passengers in 2015. From there, she would go on to post more than 1,300 videos of her family, eventually amassing a following of more than 2 million subscribers. But now that success of 8 Passengers is raising a lot of concerns about questionable parenting, possible abuse. We know that she's a convicted child abuser now.

So there is a big push to make sure that at least one part of content creation, is better regulated. And that is the earnings, the earnings that are meant to go towards the children. And in a little bit, we are actually going to hear the words of Ruby Frankie's estranged husband and some of her children during a recent legislative hearing out in Utah. But before we even get to that, I got to talk a little bit more about this. There's a lot of moving parts. So I want to bring on psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, who honestly has not only incredible expertise on this, but also one of the best backgrounds of any guests, that we have always makes me wonder why we're here in New York and not Florida. Great background,

Dr. Bober. Good to see you. All right. So talk to me about just generally the dangers of putting children on social media, YouTube, particularly at such a young age. Well, listen, you know, this is where we are now. It's sort of the attention economy, right? And the units of currency are sensationalism, superficiality, and fame. But, you know, growing up, I didn't have Instagram influencers, but there were still child stars. And we know from other child stars that appeared on the screen derive a lot of their self-esteem from external validation, that a lot of them are really people that missed out on their childhood, right? They had role confusion. They had trouble distinguishing between their on-screen persona and their real life. And that could lead to

anything from anxiety to depression, just burning out in general. And then, of course, there's all the body image issues, the financial exploitation. So there's a lot going on here for child. stars and child actors and influencers. And here's the thing, right? So this picture perfect image that Ruby Frankie put out on the internet for everybody to see, that all came crashing down in August of 2023. You see, by this time, Ruby had moved on for May passengers to a new venture called Connections with her apparent business partner and co-defendant Jody Hildebrandt. Two of Ruby's oldest children, Shari and Chad, had turned 18. They were out on their own. But that meant the other four children. They were still under Ruby's care, or they were supposed to be. During this time,

Kevin Frankie, the children's father was living away from the home, apparently at the suggestion of Jody, an alleged mental health counselor who believed Kevin had a pornography addiction that was harming the family. Ruby had told Kevin he had to stay away for at least a year before they could work on their marriage. And Kevin says he followed those instructions. And that meant that when Ruby and Jody were arrested in southern Utah for abusing the two youngest Frankie children inside of Jody's own home, Kevin hadn't spoken to his children for months. And that's what he told police when they questioned him the day the women were taken into custody. We're going to play you a portion of this. And again, keep in mind what he's saying now. And then also think about

what we're about to play you in a little bit from this recent Utah legislative hearing. Just you have to imagine what he's been going through. So let's play this. When all the kids left, Ruby took all of them. No, yes. She stayed in the house and I moved up. Okay. And did you ever try to reach out to the kids, drop by the home, or was there? I honored the, you know, separation boundary that we agreed to. So what was your separation? Did you have a no contact order in place?

Order? No, this was between my wife. So what did Ruby ask of you when you separated? Did she ask you not to contact the kids? Ruby invited me to leave the home while I thought about the choices that I've made in my life in a way that I've treated her. And so I left. And how long had you and Ruby been married before?

We were married in 2000. So about 22 years? When we separated, we were going on 22 years. Okay. And during your marriage, how was disciplining your kids? How would you discipline your kids? Um, yeah, I'm not going to answer that question. Okay, that's fine.

Have you been since separated or since they looked here in the city of Ivans? Have you communicated with your wife regarding, like, disciplining with your kids or their care or their physical well-being? No. So she's doing this on our own and just telling you how your kids are? She's not talking to anything about what you know. Hey, real quick, before we go any further, I have to tell you about these recent allegations against the multi-billion dollar video game industry that claim that video games are engineered for addiction. The claims include trying to make sense of the hold that video games. seem to have over people where they just can't put the controller down. Every win triggers a hit of

dopamine and that creates a cycle of compulsion which disrupts daily life. It harms mental health. But our legal sponsors are taken on the industry that is at many times allegedly put profit over safety and they're working to potentially get compensation for all of those impacted. So if you were a loved one have suffered physical or mental health issues due to video games, then visit vG claims.com slash sidebar to answer less than 10 questions and check your eligibility to file a claim. Now look, a lot of people still question how much. much Kevin Frankie knew about what was going on inside the home, including any instances of abuse or harsh discipline. But Kevin has always maintained through his attorney that he didn't know

what Ruby and Jody were doing. And he filed for divorced after Ruby was arrested. Now, Dr. Bober, again, we're going to play a little bit of Kevin Frankie recently in this legislative hearing. But to me, he still felt like in the throes of trying to come to terms with what was going on. And still heating Ruby Frankie and Jody Hilderance advice to stay away. Just your quick take on what you observed in that beginning part in that for initial interview. Well, it was interesting how he would not answer the question about how the kids were disciplined. Maybe if he had come around more, maybe that would have been a firewall or a guardrail to this happening. But the fact that he wouldn't answer how he actually was involved in disciplining the kids is interesting to me

because it would indicate that maybe what he was going to say was not something that was acceptable and that he didn't want people to know that or he was just trying to protect himself without an attorney present look here's the interesting part this treachery with ruby frankie and jody hilderang going on in ivan's this was only uncovered when the youngest frankie boy who was 12 at the time managed to escape from jody's compound go to a neighbor asked him to call 911 the boy's younger sister was still inside joddy's home inside a closet it took hours of coaxing to get her to come out and both children were emaciated they showed obvious signs of abuse including bruises the boy had duct tape on his wrists and his ankles and it turns out ruby apparently was under the delusion that she had to hurt her children in order to

help them expel some sort of evil ruby ended up pleading guilty to four counts of aggravated child abuse while she took some accountability for her actions she also pointed the finger at jody hildebrand who she said brainwashed her. Jody also entered a guilty plea. Both women were sentenced to spend at least four years in prison with a maximum sentence of 30 years. It's going to be up to the parole board to decide if they've earned the right to be released before then. And as news spread about Ruby's arrest back in 2023, there were some folks online who pointed out that there had been a few accusations against Ruby Frankie in the past because of her behavior on social media and in the eight passengers videos. In fact, according to a tell all book released by Shari Frankie, again,

couple's daughter. Things started to really fall apart when Ruby approved the posting of a video where her oldest son Chad talked about being forced to sleep on a beanbag chair for months as a form of punishment for pranking his brother. Ruby eventually took that video down, but the damage was already done. Everybody saw it. And soon as Ruby became involved with the so-called life coaching business of connections, she eventually stopped posting on a passengers. And YouTube eventually removed the channel, although an exact reason was never provided. But in the aftermath, of the arrest, as the four youngest children were handed over to the Department of Children and Family Services, Kevin started to work with Utah lawmakers, and that's what we're going to talk

about. And it was to update state law when it comes to family vlogging and child influencers. And since then, he and Sherry have appeared in legislative hearings to give testimony about their experiences online, especially in the world of YouTube. And Sherry shared her story back in October. I don't come today as a daughter of a felon, nor as a victim of an abnormally mother. I come today as a victim of family vlogging. My goal is not to present any idea of a solution to this problem, but to shed light on the ethical and monetary issues that come from being

a child influencer. When children become stars in their family's online content, they become child influencers. It is more than just filming your family life and putting it online. It is a full-time job with employees, business credit cards, managers, and marketing strategies. The difference between family vlogging and a normal business, however, is that all the children are employees. Children from before they are born to the day they turn 18 have become the stars of family businesses on YouTube, Instagram, and other social media platforms. Utah is specifically a hotspot for family content due to the LDS culture around family and the goal to share the church with the world. We also have large families, which makes family content more lucrative.

Specifically, many parents filmed their regular family life as an online video blog. called a vlog, but I want to be clear that there is never, ever a good reason for posting your children online for money or fame. There is no such thing as a moral or ethical family vlogger. At first, family vlogging is an alluring business that can bring high revenue. For my family, it became the primary source of income, as is often the case with most full-time family bloggers. Many child influencers are paid for their work as I was, and this money has helped me in my

adult life. However, this payment was usually a bribe. For example, we'd be rewarded $100 or a shopping trip if we filmed a particularly embarrassing moment or an exciting event in our lives. Or other times, simply going on vacation was expected to be payment enough because most kids don't get to go on regular and expensive trips. Never mind the fact that the child's labor is actually what paid for the vacation or trip. There is no long place to guarantee that child influencers get any money from their work. If a family account does not become an LLC, parents are taxed heavily. for paying their children.

But parents also receive tax write-offs for the regular clothes that they wear, the gas money used to drive places, and even the houses they live in. Anything that is filmed can be written off. And even after registering their business as an LLC, there is no guarantee that children will get paid. Any payment that does happen is under the table

with no paper trail. And how do we determine how much a child should make from appearing in family content? What price is worth giving up your childhood? But despite any monetary payment children may receive, don't let this excuse the 24-7 labor that these children are subjected to. As a child, I was fully aware that I was an employee. The business was successful when I was happy,

or when I shared my hardships with the world. Some of our most popular videos were when my eyebrow was accidentally waxed off, and the whole world saw a crying teenager when I just wanted to mourn in private. Or the time I was violently ill and got the leading role in the video that day. My friends became scarce because dates were filmed, and none of my friends wanted to be on camera. The camera never stops, and there is no such thing as a break from filming. At the time, I tell you I had a choice in what was filmed,

but I've come to learn that every child influencer, in a way, suffers from Stockholm syndrome. Dr. Bober, what strikes me about that, listening to her account, is what effect that would have on a young child whose most private moments are now exposed, having the camera in their face 24-7. I mean, this is a hearing about how they should be proper. really compensated for the work that they done they did and we'll get to that a little bit but just talk to me about what you take away from that very disturbing uh i think the problem is is our culture that celebrates this and finds it acceptable to exploit children to monetize

celebrity to treat them basically like circus animals where they're essentially compromising their mental health so that their parents can be famous they are unwilling participants in all of this, and they will pay the price when they become adults because they have sacrificed their childhood and their mental health to do this. And that is what I find the most disturbing that we as a society in our culture celebrates this and signs off on it. That is something that I don't think is admirable. Yeah, I was just going to ask you, what effect could this have on children? Not saying this is going to happen to the Frankie children when they grow up, but what effect would this have mentally on them? So it really depends on the child. But certainly,

higher chance of depression, anxiety, substance use disorders, problems in their own romantic relationships, receiving all their validation from fame and celebrity, effects on their self-esteem, their body image. There's just countless things that can go wrong here where this is not a good thing. Utah State Representative Doug Owens, he sponsored a bill to update the state's laws when it comes to children contributing to their household finances. And he spoke recently in from the House Business and Labor Committee. Take a listen. What we're proposing with this legislation is two basic concepts.

One is child performers ought to be paid like the traditional actors. There ought to be some money when they reach adulthood if their parents are earning a lot of money or the other content creators earning a lot of money. Other states have enacted a provision like that, California, Illinois, and Minnesota. And the other thing it does is it allows the child a right when they reach adulthood to have the content removed from the internet. Now, you can kind of see it there, but sitting right next Representative Owens is Kevin Frankie, and he was invited to provide a comment too.

I have three statements to read. One is my own, and two are statements that were prepared and written by two of my minor children at their request, and I will be reading them verbatim to you. I'd like to also clarify that these statements went through the process of approval, in the juvenile court, and the judge agreed that these statements could and should be read to this committee. Now, the first statement was from one of the middle daughters, who was at the home of a family friend when her mom was arrested.

So she would have been around five or six years old when Ruby thrust her and the rest of the family into the internet spotlight. First, a statement by my daughter, Frankie, age 16, on her behalf, this bill should be passed. Smiley face. Had it been in place when my family was doing YouTube, my mom would not have been able to withdraw all of my savings I had from doing YouTube. This bill will prevent other kids from having to go through the pain

of realizing that the compensation for years' worth of time and effort is suddenly gone. Another thing this bill would do that should have been done a long time ago is give adults over the age of 18 the right to have monitored images and videos of themselves taken off social media platforms from when they were kids. As kids, you don't realize what you're subjected to. Really, you're selling your life, your privacy, your body, and stories to the entire world. And as a child, you're involuntarily giving up all of that. You're selling your childhood. Though there is no amount of money that can make

up for that loss, the least that can be done now is making sure the child is getting paid for her work and has the right to remove it and walk away if she wants to. Dr. Bober, talk to me about that aspect, right? You know, for an adult who doesn't feel they're getting properly compensated for the work they do, there's a number of different avenues, there's a number of different ways they feel. For a child who is basically making the claim that the money was taken away from her by, you know, her mom, right? Essentially, basically, that's what is being said. Or in general, children of parents who are vlogging or doing some sort of internet work or YouTube work, that feels like

a totally different dynamic. Well, you know, the whole thing is cringeworthy because clearly these children don't have the emotional or the intellectual maturity to consent to being in these videos to begin with. But again, this is a situation where the legality has not caught up with the technology. So a lot of what she's saying is true, which is if you're going to exploit me, if you're going to take away my childhood, the least you can do is pay me for it. So again, it is disturbing to hear that. But I think she is right, especially given that very often these kids don't really have a choice in the matter. So they should at least be compensated for it. Now, as you heard, Kevin had a few statements to read. And he also read a statement from his youngest daughter. Remember the

little girl who was found in the closet of Jody's home in 2023. So while the focus of her statement was on her time as a minor YouTube celebrity, you can tell it wasn't just the physical abuse that she endured that made her childhood especially hard. The next statement I'd like to read is from my daughter Frankie. Frankie is 11 years old on her behalf. As you may know, my name is Eve, and I would like to share my ideas about this new proposed law. I think these new rules will keep the children of Utah more safe because I know more about the horrible situation that a lot of kids are in right now more than anyone.

When I was on YouTube, I thought nothing was wrong. I felt, quote, unquote, happy. But I really wasn't. When I started getting older, I realized the YouTube channel had ruined my childhood. But at least I got some money, right? Oh, right. I actually didn't because my mom withdrew all of it in 2023.

I worked hard for that money. I acted like someone I wasn't in front of that camera, and I earned that money, but I feel like my mom used me for money. I know many of the YouTube channels out there today deny this and say their channels are different, and their kids choose it and don't act in front of the camera. But every YouTuber parent expects their kids. to act a certain way. Even if the kids themselves do a channel,

they deserve the money, not the parents. You all might be saying right now that my dad told me to say these things and is using me, but that is not true. This statement was actually my idea. If anyone is using their kids, it's the YouTubers filming them for money. I'm not saying YouTube is a bad thing.

Sometimes it brings us together, but kids deserve to be loved, not used, used by the ones that are supposed to love them the most. I know I am stuck with the trauma of you too, but for some kids, it's not too late. Even now, I can barely make friends because my whole life I was the center of the attention. But now, without even realizing it, I seek attention from others or I feel like they don't like me. When those people think I mean, then those people think I mean. And when many of these young YouTubers grow up and they don't have the money they earn, and they need to rely heavily on the internet and their parents to survive, then you will know that I'm right. I've said all the reasons I like this law. I want those parents who love their children, but don't believe me to know I'm right.

Please listen to me. Your kids deserve better lives, and this law will help that become a reality. So Dr. Borber, aside from the fact that an 11-year-old wrote a letter like that, pretty unbelievable, you hear from her the effects that this has had on her. And it's quite detrimental to her life. Oh, absolutely.

But I have to say, for an 11-year-old, as you said, this is actually pretty mature reasoning and understanding. And she's right. It wasn't as if mom was putting this money aside for a scholarship or a college fund or something like that. She was purely being exploited for financial gain of which she was not going to receive any of it. So I think that that's an important point.

But at the end of the day, he still had to deal with losing her child for all her mistakes, for all her missteps to be aired for millions of people to see. And that has potential to be extremely damaging psychologically and deeply compromising. Dr. Bober, is there any scenario and how would it work where they rebuild a relationship with their mother? And would that be beneficial to them in any way? Because you're talking about, look, for Eve, right? She was the one who had to be rescued from the abuse of her mother. okay and on top of the fact that she says her mom took all the money from her as well you hear

sherry frankie talk about her mother is there any scenario where you see them rebuilding a relationship with her in some way would that be beneficial to them in the long run you think and again i can't by the way i know you haven't spoken to them i haven't spoken to them i don't know but i'm always curious in these cases where parents are either accused or convicted of abusing their children Is there any way that that relationship should be established and how could it be established? Well, listen, we're talking about a betrayal on the deepest level, a violation of trust, right? You know, parents, their main job is to keep a child safe. And the complete opposite happened here.

So as a child psychiatrist, I have seen parents who have subjected their children to horrific abuse. And it's taken years, but maybe the relationship can be repaired. but right now it's very raw it's bleeding so to speak and i think it would take a long time a lot of therapy for both parties but i do think it's possible but i think there would have to be a lot of forgiveness and rebuilding of that trust and that also includes with kevin frecky because he read from his own prepared statement as well and said straight out that he regretted putting his kids in front of the camera my name is kevin frankie i'm the father of sherry frankie and and the former husband of Ruby Frankie.

I am a former family vlogger who is intimately familiar with the world of family content creation on social media. I have my own story and journey to share when I'm ready, but obviously now is neither the time nor the place to do that. Today I want to be direct and clear. Vlogging my family, putting my children into public social media was wrong, and I regret it every single.

day. Children cannot give informed consent to be filmed on social media, period. If we as adults cannot understand the emotional and psychological impacts of sharing our lives to millions of strangers online, how can we expect our children to understand them? Few, if any, legal protections currently exist for those children, and I believe it's time to change that. I support representative Owens' bill. And I believe it to be a great first step towards protecting child influencers here in the state of Utah.

And there is much more to do in the future. Dr. Bober, a few things I want to hit on this. So when he talks about, you know, the idea of this is not the time that he's going to share his story and work on his journey, what is that journey for him? Because, again, couple that with the video

we saw at the beginning of the show, right, when he's first coming to terms of what his wife is being arrested, for he left the family to do work on their marriage didn't contact his kids to see him now right two years later talking about this what is that journey for him well it's really a good question ironically in some way maybe he is trying to get some sort of attention from his own journey at exploiting that in some way i would like to know what he means i would like to know his role in all of this and he hasn't really told the whole story so that's what i would be interested to know

what he knew and when he knew it and how he could have done better. That's what I would want to know. The other counter argument to that was he was manipulated by Ruby and Jody. And he stayed away because he thought that was he was a bad person. He was told he was a bad person. He wasn't helping his family. He needed to stay away to rebuild their marriage. Have you seen that before, that level of manipulation? I have, but I think the common theme here is that everyone says they were manipulated and no one takes responsibility for their behavior. So I think there has to be some responsibility placed on the individual and everyone just can't say that they were manipulated.

So both can be true at the same time. Do you believe that Ruby Frankie was manipulated? I believe that she knew more than she said she knew and that at some level she knew that her behavior was wrong. Now, later on in the hearing, Representative Owens made it clear that the bill would focus on people, quote, making a lot of money, that the rules and regulations they want to implement would be for people making $150,000 or more from their online content.

So you set aside the money for kids in this case to be placed in a trust. No one spoke out in opposition to the bill. A lobbyist named Dave Davis did speak on behalf of content creators that he represents, but said they're neutral on the issue. They can make it work if the legislature decides to move forward with it. And the House Committee approved the bill known as HB 322. So it went to the full House of Representatives for a vote where it's our understanding. It also passed.

So now it needs to pass the state Senate before landing on the governor's desk. Dr. Daniel Bober, thank you so much for taking the time on this, you know, really disturbing case. Interesting update to say the least. And look, hopefully if you look at what can be a positive light from such a devastating situation, the proper legislation is passed that brings more attention to what is going on in the YouTube space or the family vlogging space and children are protected, at least financially protected in some way, maybe that's a better. that could come from this. But my gosh, as we've talked about throughout this program, you just think about the detrimental effects. This has all had on those young kids.

We can only hope some good comes from it. Yeah. Dr. Bober, thanks so much. Really appreciate it. My pleasure. All right, everybody, that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.