Law&Crime Sidebar - Russian Judge Sentences WNBA Star Brittney Griner to 9 Years in Prison

Episode Date: August 4, 2022

Brittney Griner is sentenced to 9 years in a Russian prison. Jesse Weber breaks down what's to come with attorney and Russian expert Jamison Firestone and lawyer and former ESPN legal analyst Adrienne Lawrence.GUESTS:Jamison Firestone, Russian Law Expert and Attorney Adrienne Lawrence, Lawyer and former ESPN legal analyst and Author of "Staying In The Game"LAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. I never meant to hurt anybody. I never meant to put in jeopardy the rest of the population. I never meant to break any laws of it. WNBA player Brittany Griner has been officially found guilty and sentenced to nine years of prison for drug smuggling and possession out in Russia. Reaction and next steps right now. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by law and crime. I'm Jesse Weber. This legal decision comes after Griner was detained in February at a Moscow airport for carrying vape cartridges that

contained 0.702 grams of cannabis oil. This is a violation of Article 229 of Russia's criminal code. Now, prosecutors were asking for nine and a half years, which is just shy of the 10-year maximum. And in addition to this nine-year sentence to a penal colony, she was fined one million rubles, which is about $16,300. Now, Griner had already pled guilty to the drug charges that she was facing, but this trial had to continue nonetheless, per Russian law. But right now, there is a question of geopolitical backchanneling to get her home. In particular, there have been talks about trading Griner and Paul Whalen, a U.S. Marine who's been sentenced to 16 years in a Russian prison on espionage charges to trade them for Russian arms dealer Victor Bout, also

known as the merchant of death, who's currently serving a 25-year prison sentence in the United States. But it seems that those negotiations have chilled after what the U.S. called a bad faith counteroffer from Russia. What to help make sense of this and talk about where we're going next, I have two very special guests with me. I'm joined by Jameson, Firestone, an attorney and Russian legal expert, and also attorney Adrian Lawrence, who previously worked as a legal analyst for ESPN, and she is the author of staying in the game. It's great to have you both here. Thank you. Thank you. So, Adrian, I'll start with you. What is your reaction to this decision? I mean, we knew that she would be found guilty. The nine years is what everyone's

talking about, right? Yes. So we did know that she was going to be found guilty. The fact is that the Russian prison system or the justice system there, when you're looking at damn near a one 100% conviction rate. It really doesn't leave you much in terms of wondering how is this going to ultimately come out. And seeing that she's been given nine years, that also, it's not shocking to me at all. The fact is we're in the middle of geopolitical conflict. And Russia seems to have a statement to make. And it has made that statement with the conviction of Britney Greiner. Jameson, have these drug laws in Russia always been so strict? Or is Greiner being made an example of? No, they've always been this strict. We had somebody fly through Russia, not even get off the air, not even go through customs and passport control, but just changing planes with a small amount of marijuana. And she was arrested also and the Israelis eventually had to trade to get her out. So the laws are strict. And if Russia thinks that they can get something for you, if you're a high profile person like Brittany is, then you're certainly going to have the book thrown at you in the hardest way possible so that they have somebody to.

trade. So I want to bring up that Griner made a statement before she was officially sentenced. She said, quote, I grew up in a normal house, a normal household in Houston, Texas with my siblings and my mom and my dad. My parents taught me two important things. One, take ownership for your responsibilities and two, work hard for everything that you get. That's why I pleaded guilty to my charges. I understand everything that has been said against me and the charges against me, but I had no intent to break Russian law. Now, before the sentencing, Brianner, said on camera that she had hoped for leniency. I made an honest mistake, and I hope that in your ruling, that it doesn't end my life here.

Adrian, I'm thinking, by pleading guilty, right, is that leniency? Is that why she got one year taken off instead of 10 years? She gets nine years. So that's what she gets for pleading guilty, just one year taken off. Is that leniency? You know what? That might be that Russian court's idea of leniency, but it definitely doesn't seem to be what we would consider leniency here in the United States for certain. But I think the situation

that we're really in right now is trying to effectuate some kind of prisoner swap. And the fact is that it's very rare for individuals who are in the Russian court system who've not been convicted and sentenced to beat parties to a swap. And so we knew that this had to come down the pipe. This had to happen in terms of her conviction and sentenced. And, you know, the fact that this Russian court decided on nine years of the possible 10, if they consider that mercy, I don't know what to tell them, but I just consider this part of the necessary process to do whatever we need to do politically in order to get Brittany Griner back on U.S. soil. And I do want to get into the trade talks, but before we do, Jameson, we cover trials on long crime all the time. They're televised.

We get to see them. Clearly that was not the case in this Russian courtroom. We didn't know what was happening. I mean, obviously there were reports, but we're talking about a different country, different set of laws. Did she have a fair trial in any way? No. and that was to be expected. Look, first of all, Russia has a conviction rate of 99.9%. To be accused is to be convicted. As she explained, she was asked to sign things when she didn't know what she was

signing, and they don't care. They routinely break their own procedural law, things that would have a case thrown out of court because the procedures weren't followed. They don't care. So to be to be accused is to be convicted. And this was a, and in this particular case, because it's so political, they were going to give her a very long time, because if you don't give her a very long time, then there's no reason to trade, right? I mean, if they gave her six months to be lenient, then the U.S. wouldn't be trading, wouldn't be trading an arms smuggler. So there was no fair trial at all. And just to follow up on that, Jameson, is this decided by a judge? I mean, I don't imagine a jury decided. I mean, what is the standard? We always talk about beyond a reasonable

doubt here in the United States. What do they have? At least on the surface, I'm sure there's some burden that you have to follow. Well, on the surface, the judge makes the decision. In practice, there is no way this judge made this decision. Simply impossible. This judge was told what decision to hand down. No judge would take the responsibility for this highly political case without actually making sure that the authorities approved it because the authorities want to make a trade. And you know what? It kind of makes me wonder, Adrian, the fact that she, put up this fight? Is this why she got the harsh sentence, right? I mean, sure, she pled guilty, but as Jameson just said, she wasn't read her rights. She didn't know what she was signing.

She even called an expert to dispute that she was carrying an illegal amount of drugs, the actual amount. I mean, they raised the question of, did she really meet that threshold of how much she was carrying? So do you think that this pushback actually resulted in her getting a harsher sentence? Well, I think, as my colleague noted, to be accused is to be convicted. I don't necessarily think that anything Brittany Greiner did helped or hurt her at all because her conviction was already certain from the jump as far as I'm concerned. And when it comes to the sentence that was rendered, again, the main goal is a prisoner swap here. So the judges, whatever they'd give is what they're looking to please whomever is in their political system who wants to make this happen. And so

giving her nine years, it seems to be very much something that is a reflection of creating a situation where the U.S. has to work a little bit harder to ensure that Brittany Greiner gets out. Because if maybe they gave her a year, maybe the U.S. would do less. But now with the reality that she's possibly going to be in this worker camp for nine years, that's something that just gives that incentive for the U.S. to actually deal and come to the table. You mentioned a penal colony. Do we have any understanding of what the conditions are of her detainment moving forward? It's my understanding that her conditions in terms of being detained weren't necessarily as unfavorable, the thought that she was doing okay. It was difficult for me to believe that this woman, who is six foot nine, would have clothing that fit her, shoes that fit her, especially in a woman's facility, also a bed in which she can sleep in and be comfortable.

And I do know that the women, I guess, that were in the cell with her, spoke some English, so she was able to relay with them. Also that there is reports that when she was initially arrested and detained, that she ended up kind of getting, creating rapport with the guards and that there were a lot of energy in terms of promoting her, so to speak, and lifting her up and speaking well of her as she does these walks to the courthouse. The reality is that we don't necessarily know what it's going to look like in these penal colonies for her and whether there's going to be any regard for her health or safety. So Jameson, Greiner's lawyer said, quote, we will certainly file an appeal. We are very disappointed by the verdict. As legal professionals, we believe that the court should be fair to everyone, regardless of nationality. The court completely ignored all the evidence of the defense.

And I guess the question is, what does an appeal look like in Russia? Well, I mean, nothing's going to come of it. But, I mean, we're going through formalities now. I mean, you make the best case. You try and present her. in the best light possible, which is why she kind of owned up to making the mistake. But nothing is going to come of it. Yeah.

I tell you what, I want to switch gears. I want to talk about these back channel deals that are going on to get Griner home back to the United States. And U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken said that the sentence compounds the injustice of her wrongful detention. And as I mentioned before, there was this deal for a prisoner exchange, but it seems that it kind of fell apart. And it's interesting because when they presented Russia with this deal for Griner and Whalen to be exchanged for Richard Bell, Russia, it seems, wasn't very interested that they presented a counteroffer that the United States called Ridiculous. So what does that tell you? Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, I'm a bit confused as to why we made the offer before she was convicted. Because once you make an offer to Mr. Putin, he knows you're interested.

So he just takes more, right? It's like Ukraine. He takes some of Ukraine and he takes a little bit more of Ukraine. So the counteroffer, which my understanding is didn't come through the same channels, but is probably legitimate, is that there was a Russian government assassin who killed a Georgian national from the country of Georgia, who was a dissident against the Putin regime. And he was in Germany seeking asylum and a Russian government assassin. went out and killed him, shot him in broad daylight. And so he is now served, that person that assassin is now serving a jail sentence in Germany. And we were asked to add that to the deal. Now, first of all, we can't ask that, add that to the deal because that person is not ours to give. That is a person who committed a murder in Germany. And I can't imagine the Germans giving him up under any circumstances, and rightfully so. So I think what we're in right now is

horse trading, right? Putin's going to keep throwing names out there. see what he can get the most he can get, and then eventually we'll take a deal. And I assume Victor Boot, the merchant of death, will be part of that deal since he's already on the table. But Adrian, isn't time of the essence here? Yes, on one point, we want to get Griner home as soon as possible for her safety and her well-being. But on the other hand, unfortunately, new cycles change. People's interests change. And so time is of the essence to make this thing happen right now. But then again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you let things cool off. you let the attention die down and we do something behind the scenes.

What do you think? Well, I do agree with you most definitely in terms of that, which is in the news cycle, is in the forefront of individuals' minds. And so now is the time to strike at the same time. It could be difficult for the U.S. to get a deal done if Russia continues to reach for things that are not accessible to the U.S. or readily accessible. Also, packaging the deal with Whelan, it can add all these extra kind of just other matters that can complicate the deal. But the fact is that the U.S. needs to strike and it needs

to strike now. And the Russians are likely going to take advantage of that. And it really puts a lot of pressure on the U.S. Secretary of State, in large part also because of the things that are going on in our nation, in particular, with the midterms coming up, also Brittany Greiner being a black, queer woman. And how the U.S. handles the situation is incredibly important, especially when it's asking for individuals of a particular demographic to show out when it comes to the vote. So there are so many things going on right now, and it's a really difficult situation to be in, but we're going to see where the U.S., where its priorities lie. Yeah, the timing of this is very interesting.

And just to follow up on that, there is a counter argument here that we can't ignore, and that's that if we make this deal right now, this jeopardizes us in the future. This is the argument that let's say we have an American going abroad, or Russian coming here, there's an incentive to grab them, make sure you get a hold of them on something so that they can be a future bargaining chip. If we make this deal with Griner, could there be a slippery slope? Well, I think it's a legitimate argument, but only when you're talking about certain nations and certain situations. And given the climate of what we're seeing with Russia and its attack on Ukraine, as well as the position it's in facing the sanctions

from the United States and the fact that the relationship between the U.S. U.S. and Russia is just strained so significantly that, yes, I think we should be especially concerned if there are American citizens who do enter Russia. At the same time, we know that the U.S. government hasn't formed Americans not to necessarily go to Russia unless there's something required or they have to be there. But the reality is that there are still Americans who are in Russia, who are detained for periods of time, like Mark Vogel, who is found with cannabis as well. And the U.S. did not give anything necessarily to try to bring Fogel back. So I think it's a matter of the situation, the high-profile nature of the individual, kind of the cards the U.S.

has to deal in the situation, and also the larger geopolitical climate. So I think it'll be rare in circumstances, but I think we need to focus on the fact that there are certain nations in which American citizens are not safe because of the larger geopolitical conflict and the fact that people will be taken hostage or dealt as though they are cards. Jameson, we've been talking about the prisoner trade. But aside from that, do you think that there could be a concession with the war in Ukraine as a deal point here with Griner? Do you think that could happen?

What would that look like? They probably want it. They're not going to get it. That's simply not going to happen. We have an international coalition based on sanctions right now and trying to weaken Russia and strengthen Ukraine. And I don't think that's on a negotiating table. I don't think that can be on the negotiating table.

There are too many, besides being against national interest, there are just too many players involved. When the U.S. starts to do that, then you've got the Europeans who are going to do something else and the British are going to do something, and it all falls apart. So I think these issues are going to be kept different, but it is traditional, for lack of a better word,

to trade people, to trade people who are being detained and we'll work that out. And I have confidence that we will work. get out. Jameson, this is a PR nightmare for Russia. I mean, it has been since even before the war in Ukraine, but obviously after the start of it, did you ever think that there might be, hey, let's be lenient with Brittany Griner in the eyes of the world. It might be better for us. They haven't done that. They've been pretty straightforward. They feel almost justified in what they're doing. I thought they might be lenient with her in a certain point, but they aren't.

Does that surprise you at all? Well, no. I mean, look, they're at war. And they don't have an image to protect anymore. I mean, the only people they're selling their image to are the Chinese and the Indians, right? They, because they want to keep selling them oil and gas. But they don't care what their image is right now. I mean, they have their own narrative. Their narrative is that we've surrounded them

and left them with no other choice, right? And they keep, it's a bit like Hitler during World War II. I mean, they bid off parts of Georgia and they got that, and then they bid off Crimea, and they occupied part of Ukraine, and they got that. And so now they're doing a full-scale invasion, and they don't care what anybody thinks. They do care about sanctions, but right now they're willing to put up with those sanctions, because Mr. Putin has his regime based on this now. He can't back down. Yeah, no, Adrian, I guess the question is, what lesson did we learn here?

However, this shakes up, how do we make sure this doesn't happen in the future? Well, I think it can be very difficult, again, with the nature of how other countries are operating, and we want to be sensitive to that. But then when we look at the larger picture of even just seeing why Brittany Granner was there and the fact that she has played in Russia for, what, some seven seasons, or this would have been her seventh season of coming, the thing is, is that it stemmed from unequal pay between women and men in an industry and knowing that she could get equal pay there in Russia or at least some kind of compensation. that is a better reflection of her work product and what she brings, you know, it's the fact that people in the United States will find themselves in situations where they are in other countries that are not as safe for them simply because they have needs that aren't being met in the U.S. So whether people go abroad looking for health care options that are financially affordable because the U.S. isn't providing that or even medication job opportunities, this is a reality.

And so, if anything, I think the message here, and maybe what we can learn is that we need to take care of our people better, and we need to actually maybe practice these principles that we preach as a nation. That's a really good point. That's very well said. Before I let you both go, Jameson, do you think that we are going to see Brittany Griner home within the year? I don't know. I would hope so. I mean, I would really hope so. And I think that, look, the number one thing, all this public pressure, without it, nothing would have.

have happened. I know that the State Department and the government tell you you have to be quiet. If you don't be quiet and you don't get under the president's skin, basically, you don't get out. Now, it does raise the price because, you know, as the more of an issue this is, the higher the Russians want to ask. But on the other hand, if we're not keeping all this media attention up, then she's not coming home. So I think that this pressure will be kept up. I think she will get home. And by the way, one thing I wanted to add to which Adrienne said, she's played seven seasons there. If she was being paid like an NBA champion, I don't think she'd have a second job in Russia. That's how different the pay scales are. Now is not the time to be in Russia.

She probably didn't get used to it and didn't realize how high risk it was because you get used to things, right? Like the frog in boiling water, it all seems normal. But I would hope that we get her home soon. Adrian, I'll give you the final word. What do you think? I am hoping that it will certainly be within a year. I think the WNBA is going to do its best to continue to raise her voice and to continue to ensure that people are focused on her. I do think that there are individuals on both political sides or teams, so to speak, who can leverage power to bring her home and may even do so, given me elections that are coming up. And so I think that that could potentially work in her favor. But I think at the end of the day, no matter what happens that the U.S. cannot give up on her. particularly because not only is she a gold medalist, but she is an individual who contributes to the United States and it's advancement and it cannot leave her behind. Adrian Lawrence, Jameson Firestone.

Thank you both so much for coming on and really talking about this subject. It means a lot. And before we let you guys go, Adrian, where can people find you? I am on Twitter at Adrian Law and I'm also on Instagram at Adrian Lauren. And Jameson, how about you? Well, I work as an attorney in London. it's fdadvisory.com.

Thank you so much again. And everyone out there, thank you so much for listening and tuning in and please subscribe to Sidebar on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast.

Sidebar is produced by Sam Goldberg, YouTube manager, Robert Zoki, Alyssa Fisher, as our booking producer and video editor, Michael Dininger. I'm Jesse Weber. Speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus.

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