Law&Crime Sidebar - The Case Against Alec Baldwin: Actor Faces Trial for Fatal 'Rust' Shooting

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

More than two years after a gun held by actor Alec Baldwin went off on the New Mexico set of the film “Rust,” Baldwin is preparing for his manslaughter trial. The bullet from Baldwin’s gun hit the film’s cinematographer, Halyna Hutchins, and director, Joel Souza. Hutchins did not survive. Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the film set’s armorer, was recently found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 18 months in prison. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber does a deep dive into police body camera video and interrogations from the day of the shooting, plus what we learned from Gutierrez-Reed’s trial and its possible impact on Baldwin.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can submit a claim in 8 clicks or less without having to leave your couch. To start your claim, visit: https://www.forthepeople.com/LCSidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson

delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible.

Alec Baldwin was the actor on set that pulled the trigger. Alec Baldwin? Yes, sir. Please tell me she's still alive. Did you say 500 live rounds of cover? No, I said there was a total of 500 rounds of ammunition. That is a mix of blanks, dummy rounds, and what we are suspecting, live rounds.

Does Alec Baldwin himself face the potential of criminal charges? All options are on the table at this point. He's a multi-award winning actor, known for films like The Hunt for Red October and Beetlejuice and the popular TV series 30 Rock, but Alec Baldwin, will soon be taking center stage in a New Mexico courtroom as he stands trial for manslaughter. Authorities charged Baldwin after a gun he was holding on the set of the film Rust went off, resulting in an injury to the director and the death of the cinematographer Helena Hutchins. This is a full deep dive into it all from Alec Baldwin's background to Rust,

to what evidence and legal arguments we can expect at his upcoming trial, it is all straight ahead. Sidebar. Presented by Law and Crime, I'm Jesse Weber. 66-year-old Alec Baldwin got his start in acting decades ago. Many of you have probably seen his work. He rose to prominence in the 1980s when he starred on an NBC soap opera called The Doctors, and then he really hit it big in Tim Burton's Beetlejuice movie back in 1988. From there, we have The Departed, We Have Married to the Mob, The Marrying Man, the Aviator, Pearl Harbor, and the list goes on and on and on. Baldwin also appeared multiple times on Saturday Night Live, appeared in several Broadway shows in the early 2000s.

By 2006, he was once again skyrocketing to fame with his role as Jack Donaghy in the NBC show 30 Rock. He's also listed as producer on the later seasons. And just before 30 Rock's 100th episode, Baldwin earned his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and he was the subject of a 2019 roast on Comedy Central. Bottom line, he is definitely a well-known celebrity to most people. and has had quite the career so far. But then, we go to October 2021. Baldwin and writer-director Joel Sousa started work on a Western called Rust, a Bonanza Creek ranch to ghost town outside of Santa Fe, New Mexico.

During filming on October 21st, Baldwin, who was starring as the film's lead, also a producer on the film, he was supposed to just pull out a prop gun. But instead, when he drew his weapon, it fired a real bullet. And that bullet hit both Joel Sousa and cinematographer Helena Hutchins, wounding Sousa, and killing Helena. We're going to get into the details of what we know happened that day in just a moment. But first, we want to tell you a little bit more about Helena Hutchins. So she was born in 1979 in Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union.

She studied at two different universities, getting a degree in international journalism. She worked on documentaries in Eastern Europe as an investigative journalist. She met her husband Matthew, who's American. They had one son together. She was living in the United States at the time of her death, but was reportedly very proud of her Ukrainian heritage. When she moved to Los Angeles, she was encouraged to apply to the American Film Institute Conservatory, where she completed a master's program. In 2019, she was named one of the 10 up-and-coming directors of photography who are making their mark,

this by the American Society of Cinematographers. Helena was director of photography or cinematographer on several problems. over the last few years, including the PBS series, a town called Victoria, a short film called Sunday's Child, and the 2020 movie The Mad Hatter. So clearly Helena Hutchins had a great deal of experience when she stepped onto the set of Rust. But all of that sadly ended in a horrible, horrible accident. So now let's talk about October 21st, 2021. What happened that day? We know from interviews with the onset armor Hannah Gutierrez-Reed and Alec Baldwin, and various other crew members that a gunfight scene was supposed to be filmed after lunch

inside of a small church at the ranch. Baldwin was supposed to pull the gun out of his holster and point it towards the camera, which had several people standing behind it only a couple feet away. The weapon was a Colt 45 revolver replica, which was not supposed to contain any live rounds. Now, the gun was reportedly checked very briefly by Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. Again, the armor on the set. She explained that to police later that day, an interview. Yeah. Clarify a little bit.

So prior to lunch, the guns, you had the mouth. Yeah. And where were they when they were out? They were inside with all the camera crew and everything. You know, COVID, everything happening right now. They don't really like a lot of people in there. Okay. And so usually I'm like hardly allowed in there unless there's actual firing happening.

Okay. Yeah. Were you inside this morning? I walked in there and I handed the business. I've been there and I handed the gun to Alex a couple of times and Alec took it and everyone was there with him. Alec? Alex. Okay.

Oh, okay. So you handed him the gun this morning. Yeah. Does he pass it off to anybody or will be able to see that? At one point, Dave had it, the assistant director, but he was just sitting in with it and then I saw him and I was like, okay, this is fine, he's just sitting in and then I walked out and, and, you know, he was just sitting in. walked out and yeah and how do you know that Dave had it I handed it off to Dave while he was sitting in for the shot okay um all right so you guys were the only three handlers prior to lunch Alec um Dave me Dave was after lunch okay Dave was after

lunch um yeah that should have been the only ones um um um you know that should have been the only ones um maybe Sarah possibly, but yeah. Because they're showing our little table and we're pretty much there all the time. Okay. But what happened is when Baldwin pulled out the gun, it fired a single shot. Now Baldwin has defended himself publicly swearing

he did not pull the trigger. In fact, he spoke to George Stephanopoulos on ABC News saying, well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger. And Stephanopoulos asked, So you never pulled the trigger. Baldwin responds, no, no, no, I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never. Now, the bullet hit Helena Hutchins, who was standing behind the monitor, and the bullet traveled through her chest and into director Joel Sousa's shoulder. The script supervisor called 911. Emergency crews were there just minutes later.

Helena was flown by helicopter to the University of New Mexico Hospital where she was pronounced dead. Susa was taken by ambulance to a medical center in Santa Fe to be treated for his gunshot wound. He was able to offer a lot of information to police before he was sedated for surgery. Let's take a listen. Can't tell me what happened? We're filming at Vananza Creek Ranch. Uh-huh. What was that, 25 or something?

We were rehearsing in the church set. try sorry i'm trying it's okay take a very loud bang and it felt like somebody kicked me in the shoulder and then i was down on my ass and then i looked over and see the cinematographer helena hutchins with blood coming out of her back holding a what i'm sorry with blood coming out of her back okay she was between me and i think where the gun went off and i think it went through her and indompson And usually the guns on set, are they usually, what kind of guns are to use? I mean, they just... They're in the western, so it's all the old best style.

Okay. And usually they're filled with blanks though? What they generally do. I, I believe is the armor will keep the gun what they call it clean or cold. Mm-hmm. When they hand it over for rehearsal, meaning they show it to the actor, they show it to the first AD, and they say, they all agree that there are no rounds in it. And then when pictures up, they will have different sizes, different types of blanks,

they'll call it a quarter mode or a half load. And then the acquisers walk through on where you're doing something that this blinks are still dangerous. But they tell me there's a bullet in you. Is Helena still alive? Who? Alina? We're going to have to find out about how in just a little bit here, okay? Please tell me if she's still alive.

I'm sure she's fine. She's just not here. This is like a movie. Now, back at the film set turned crime scene, investigators were trying to determine what happened and when it happened. So as Joel and Helena were loaded into an ambulance and helicopter, an officer tracked down Alec Baldwin. How's going, sir?

So my understanding, you were in the room when the, lady when someone was the gun yeah okay all righty well I know your name so it's it's a um let me give with my lieutenant and see see where we want you to where we want you to hang out okay whatever you want to yes sir all right give me just a second A-L-T. So I got the immediate four people that were in the room, Alex Baldwin, the actor. He's the one who pulled the trigger.

Do you want me to have him sit tight or... Yeah, you're going to have to sit tight. Sit tight in the unit. I have the armor in here. This is all their stuff. I have the gun used is in there. And I got the two people that were in the room. Okay.

You want to have Alec Baldwin take a seat in the back one unit or... Um, no, we know we know we're... Is that what we know? Yeah. We just need to say, is he in a trailer? No, he's right there in the gray and black. Okay. All right.

So try to keep him away from everybody. Okay. Have him to talk to anybody? Okay. I can just have him sit with him in my unit. That's fine. Okay. Are you doing okay?

No, I'm not actually. Okay. Yeah. Crazy series events. So we're requesting that you, requesting that you and Ms. Kutera's conduct interviews back at the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office. Yeah, and if an associate or... Okay. You tell me what to do. Okay. We would appreciate that and then we'll...

When do you want me to do that? We're gonna probably go right now. So can I take my car, that's my car, go back to the base camp, get rid of the wardrobe, get my clothes, and then I'll follow you? Yes. I think... No, that's okay. I think we might, I think we might, I think, I I don't know if this is suspected blood or real blood? This is fake. Fake, okay. This is all theatrical. I'm going to talk to me. Okay.

I'm going to talk to our crime scene technician and see what she had suggested or would like. In the interesting time, go back to my base camp, giving them everything. My street line, I'll be down at the base camp waiting for you. Okay. They know with my trailer and I'll just wait for you. I'm out of whatever you're telling me. Right. Okay.

You know, I'll be down at the base camp. I have a trailer there. Okay. Let me give them the wardrobe back, put my street clothes on, gather my personal life, and I'll be going to go right of the place. Yeah, yeah, that sounds good, sir. And we're going to go talk to Ms. Gutierrez right now because we're going to request the same information.

I'm going to ask the armory specialist. She's a little shaken up. So just leave that stuff on, sir. Yeah, leave them on right now. So I'm going to talk to my crime scene tech? Let me know what you want to do. All right, sounds good, sir. Officers separated Hannah Gutierrez-Reed from the rest of the crew,

putting her in the back of a squad car where she was sometimes seen crying. In fact, at one point, an officer escorted her to the bathroom and learned that Gutierrez-Reed was pretty new to the industry. I just kind of wish that any of my coworkers could stop seeing me because I already feel super bad. Okay. Okay, cool. Oh, yeah, I just, I don't want to go back. Okay.

I just wanted to get out of here and never show my face in this industry every time. Oh, I wouldn't say that. Oh, I would. I'm like the only female armor in the game, and I just, I just got my whole entire career. Have you studied armory, or did you go to classes, or how did you get into it? My dad's the best, one of the best armor is in the entire world. They trained me, and I'm a fucking failure.

By the way, a little background on that. Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's stepfather, Is Thelred, a long-time movie armor? He spoke with media outlets after the shooting defending his daughter. And then we have the Santa Fe County Sheriff, who announced what happened in a news conference and gave details about all the evidence that they were collecting from the film set. The first deputy arrived at 2 o'clock p.m. and EMS arrived at 201 p.m. It was later determined that Helena Hutchins, the director of cinematography, and Joel

Sousa, the director, had been shot while rehearsing a scene on the movie Rust. During the initial investigation, it was determined that actor-producer, Alec Baldwin, was the person that fired the weapon. We identified two other people that handled and or inspected, the loaded firearm, prior to Baldwin firing the weapon. These two individuals are armor Hannah Reid Gutierrez and assistant director David Hall. All three individuals have been cooperative in the investigation and have provided statements. Over the last few days, our investigative team has been

working diligently to conduct interviews, execute search warrants, and collect and process evidence from the scene. During this process, we determined that there were a limited amount of movie set staff present in the area where the actual incident took place, although there were approximately 100 people on set. Through the execution of search warrants, we have collected about 600 items of evidence. These include but are not limited to three firearms, approximately 500 rounds of of ammunition and several pieces of clothing and assessments. We believe that we have in our possession the firearm that was fired by Mr. Baldwin.

And back to Alec Baldwin. Once he got changed and he was out of his costume, Baldwin joined detectives in an interrogation room. I'm at the police station of the sheriffs and they're about to interview me. How was everyone at home? How are the kids? The kids are great. The kids are great.

Did you tell, hold on the second, please. Did you tell Carmen what's going on? No, I did. Okay. We've done this for two weeks and we did it the right way every day. Every day. You're on a set. You rehearse.

They're bringing what's called the cold gun. The gun is if you're completely empty, the chambers, or there is a cosmetic piece. So, for example, if you're the camera and this is going to sound silly and specific, but if I'm pointing a gun close to the camera, you want to see into the cylinder that there's material in there, cosmetic materials. So those rounds are cosmetic rounds. They put them in and you rehearse, or even in a shot when you don't fire. I pulled them up, and you see there's some material inside the cylinder. They'd hand me a cold gun, no charges. They always hand you a cold gun with nothing in it to rehearse.

And then when you shoot, if you are shooting loads that are flash loads, and they're usually in three denominations, quarter half, a full load round, so that the flash is bright, and the sound is loud, louder, loudest, full load is artist. So if you're outside, you want a full loud sound or a loud sound or inside, you could do a quarter of a lot. Right before you shoot, everyone preps, who puts the ear plugs in, some put headphones on, the camera's there, very open, there's a loose-tight screen, but you're the camera operator, and there's the camera, so I should we shoot off camera, you never shoot into the lens, and you shoot it as a flash and a sound. Now, I went

to lunch. She disarmed me. I sat down. She being... Hannah, the armaments person. When she was always handled the guns, there were 99% of the time. So I would, if I had a cosmetic rifle with no ground that I could I hand it to one of her assistance. I'm sitting there, she disarms me, we go to lunch, we come back for lunch and they hand me

the revolver, the cult. And they, I just like so mean, it's in Hannah again. They arm me. And you're assuming, as we've done every time that it's a cold gun for the rehearsal. And I put the gag in the shot here in the camera because I have a coat and I have a holster and I pull the coat over it and I kind of cut my hands like I folded my hands. And then I'm going to slowly sneak the revolver of the colt out and turn and shoot these other guys or try to shoot them. I take the coat over the thing and the camera's there. I believe, my recollection is she was there, turned a bit like talking to him.

So I think she was hit in the right armpit. but this is all I know and that is I take the gun out in the rehearsal where he wants it very dramatic and very something I'm trying to sneak up on them I take the gun out

and then I take like as it clears as a barrel clears the whole turn and cock the gun and hear it turn and cock the gun the gun goes off it's supposed to be a cold gun nothing

no flash charges nothing now this is a puzzle to me and this is making me very emotional about you know but in my time And I'm older now.

But when I was younger and I was shooting guns and filth, I've never seen a theatrical flash round with the material. Went through someone's armpit came out their body and hit somebody else in the shoulder. I'm wondering if your department is prepared to go find out what comes out of his shoulder surgically. Is that a live round? That's what we are actually looking at. Is that a lot? Because I don't make any sense otherwise. The detectives spoke with Baldwin for about an hour.

And then they delivered the devastating news. I do have some very unfortunate news to tell you. She didn't make it. Yeah. So Joel's still at the hospital, but the other person involved didn't make it. It doesn't want you to hear it outside of here. Is there something we could do for you? Um, that is that Jonah is the one that?

What? What? Jonah? The one's up there? Um, yeah. Okay. Would you want Jonah in here with me? You want to? What do you want to do? Do you want to make a call? You can get it. We should go.

In a tweet, the day after the shooting, Baldwin said, quote, there are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Helena Hutchins, a wife, a mother, and deeply admired colleague of ours. I'm fully cooperating with the police investigation to address how this tragedy occurred. And I am in touch with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Helena. Talking about a big legal case like this makes me think of the largest personal injury firm in the country. Morgan and Morgan, our proud sponsor here on Sidebar. This is a firm that has secured verdicts and settlements in the millions. This is a firm

that doesn't just accept lowball offers but fights for what you deserve in compensation. This is a firm that makes the whole process as easy as possible for their clients because from submitting documents to talk to your legal team, it can all be done from your smartphone. And this is a firm that doesn't have an upfront fee. No, you only pay them if you win. So if you're injured, you can easily start a claim at for the people.com slash LC sidebar or by dialing pound law that's pound 529 on your phone. Now Baldwin wasn't the only high profile actor starring in Russ. No, Jensen Ackles, probably most famous for portraying Dean Winchester on the CW show Supernatural and most recently the boys on Amazon Prime, was supposed to portray a U.S.

Marshall in the movie. So he also did an interview with detect. and had nothing but praise for Helena. So I was standing just outside the church right off the porch there when the gun went off. And again, they were just setting up a shot of him pulling out the gun and showing him. You know, she was very kind of involved in every shot. You know, this is, I'm usually kind of directors being a little bit more of like, okay, I want to see this, I want to see this, but Joel was more of like, this is the scene. Elena, how are we going to shoot it?

And so she was really, for all the purposes, she was the meaning of director of photography. She was directing all of the camera shocks. She was very, very passionate and amazing at it. But she would get right in there. She would even move me, like, finding the light and stuff, just right. So she was very, very hands-on. Some people don't do that.

A lot of people don't do that. They'll just sit in there, you know, chair. behind the monitor, just be like, you know, on the radio telling people to do things. She was very hands-on, so she was standing right there next to Reed and looking at the monitor on the camera, asking Alec to show her what, you know, show me your action. So he was just showing her the action and then it went off. I don't know if he was just drawing back on a hammer and his thumb slipped and that was enough of a spring to to get forward and hit that primer or what but I'm sure he's told you and so I heard

the shot go off there shouldn't have been any shot go off because a it was a setup there was no cameras rolling there was there wasn't supposed to be around a blank to be shot in that particular camera sequence and nobody else I got out So when it went off, I just, it just sounded different. I mean, a real round sounds different than a blink. And I didn't immediately think that it was. I just was like, what the . And so I spun into the church.

I saw Joel down screaming. I saw Elena seated. And I could see, she was, her back was to me, but I could see the blood pool. the blood pooling on her khaki jacket. And so I just started yelling medics. And, yeah, and then that was about it. Then I just stood back.

I kicked myself for not running in there and doing something, but I don't know what I would have done. Filming on Rust did eventually resume, moving from New Mexico to Montana in April of 2023. No release date for the film has been announced. For the next several months after the show, shooting. There were a ton of lawsuits. They were filed back and forth between crew members, the production company, cast members like Baldwin, and of course Helena's family. The Hutchins

suit ended with a settlement, the details of which were not disclosed. But what we do know is that Matthew Hutchins, again Helena's husband, is now a producer on the Rust Project. That was part of the deal. Then we go to January 2023. Baldwin put out a video in which he talked about rumors that he wasn't cooperating with Santa Fe investigators. One of the quick note, any suggestions that I am not complying with requests or orders or demands or search warrants about my phone. That's a lie. This is a process where one state makes the request of another state. Someone from another state can't come to you and say,

give me your phone. Give me this. They can't do that. They've got to go through the state you live in. That is a process that takes time. They have to specify what exactly they want. You can't just go through your phone and take, you know, your, uh, your photos or your love letters to your wife or what have you i really don't know but but of course

we are 1,000 percent uh going to comply with all that we're uh you know perfectly fine with that and then just days later prosecutors announced that baldwin and gutierrez reed would each be charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter which they were charged with the two were also hit with a gun enhancement charge that carries a five-year prison term, but that enhancement charge was later dropped. This came after Baldwin's legal team argued that he was charged under the firearm enhancement statute that did not exist at the time of the shooting. The first assistant director and safety coordinator, Dave Halls, had already accepted a plea in this case, a connection with the onset shooting. Remember, he's the one who apparently took the gun from Gutierrez-Reed

and handed it to Baldwin. Now, there has been some dispute on who actually handed the weapon to Baldwin. In the end, he was charged with negligent use of a deadly weapon. During a virtual plea hearing halls, pleaded no contest to the misdemeanor charge. In addition to six months unsupervised probation, he had to pay a $500 fine, performed 24 hours of community service, take a fire safety course, testify in all hearings involving the shooting, and have no contact with co-defendants or witnesses. Then we fast forward to April 2023.

After the first special prosecutor and the DA both stepped aside from this case and new special prosecutors were brought in, charges against Alec Baldwin were dropped. But was announced at the time that the investigation was active and ongoing. And that investigation led to a grand jury proceeding. And in January of 2024, the jury indicted Alec Baldwin once again. for involuntary manslaughter. He answered a not guilty plea, and he waved his arraignment. As for Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, she went to trial the next month where she was convicted. She was sentenced to the maximum of 18 months in prison, and that is where we now go into

Alec Baldwin's trial. Now, there was a lot from the trial of Hannah Gutierrez-Reed that could very well be relevant in the upcoming trial of Alec Baldwin, that you may see again, evidence that is both helpful to the prosecution's case and other evidence that is helpful to the defense's case. And that's what we're going to talk about right now. Some evidence and arguments that may make their way into this trial. For example, if we're going to preview what an opening statement could look like from the prosecution in Alec Baldwin's trial, a preview of what this case is about, a preview of what to expect, I want you to listen to special prosecutor Carrie Morrissey, what she had to say about Alec Baldwin in her closing arguments in the trial of Hannah Gutierrez-Reed.

The defense. Alec Baldwin is to blame for acting like a prima donna on the movie set and bossing people around. This is Hollywood, for heaven's sakes. I would imagine that's relatively common. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that his conduct was right. I am the person who indicted him.

alec baldwin's conduct and his lack of gun safety inside that church on that day is something that he's going to have to answer for not with you and not today that'll be with another jury on another day did mr baldwin also contribute when he pointed the gun at people and pulled the hammer back and regardless of what he said to george stephenopoulos pulled the trigger yes he is And again, we'll deal with that another time. So that sets up perfectly what we can expect in a prosecution's opening statement in July. When we say involuntary manslaughter, we're talking about recklessness or criminal negligence. My understanding, there are two theories by which the jury could find Alec Baldwin guilty. A, he negligently handled a firearm. Or B, he acted without due caution and circumspection.

that he committed an act with total disregard or indifference for the safety of others. Now, remember the accusation here, right? The accusation is that he pulled the trigger during a rehearsal when it wasn't necessary for him to have a real weapon, let alone to pull the trigger. And especially when the armor wasn't around. Yeah, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed wasn't in that church. The argument would be that as a seasoned actor, and moreover, as a producer on the film, he should have known better.

He, as the producer, was in control of this set. He created an unsafe working environment. He rushed the crew. He was a rogue actor. No pun intended, but he basically did things that he shouldn't be doing. And I'm going to get into that a little bit more. So one of the key pieces of evidence that we can expect to see at Alec Baldwin's trial is the claim he didn't pull the trigger. And I imagine prosecutors will play the infamous interview that Baldwin did with ABC News, George Stephanopoulos,

where he said, I didn't pull the trigger. I would never point a gun in anyone and pull the trigger at them. But then, I would imagine the prosecution will once again call Bryce Ziegler, FBI Firearms Examiner, listened to what he said in Gutierrez-Reed's case. Did you form an opinion about whether the handler would have to pull the trigger of the gun to make the gun fire? My opinion is that the only reason this occurred is because of the

occurred is because of the breakage. So in order to move the trigger away from the hammer that's typically accomplished by pulling the trigger. So in this case, the only way that was possible is because the trigger actually fractured. Okay. So in order for you, just so that we're clear, in order for you to make the gun fire without pulling the trigger when it was in the full-cock position, you had to break it. That's what I had to do in my lab. I can't account for all the other possibilities that may have existed in some hypothetical scenario, but this is the result as I tested in my laboratory. It would not fire without pulling the trigger in the full-cock setting without being broken.

Okay, essentially what we're hearing is the only way the gun could go off without pulling the trigger is if you basically break the gun. And that will be very strong evidence to show Alec Baldwin must have pulled the trigger. Now, Alec Baldwin could argue he didn't realize his finger was on the trigger, that he wasn't lying when he told George Stephanopoulos that. But where I think the defense will really put their focus is on the fact that this gun was destroyed by the FBI during testing. So how can we really know if it was a mechanical issue that caused the gun to discharge or not?

In fact, his team tried to get the case dismissed on those grounds. And I wouldn't also be surprised if they call their own experts or expert to suggest that the gun could, in fact, go off without pulling the trigger. So it might be a bit of a battle of the experts. But now let's talk about video evidence that will probably make its way into Baldwin's trial. Now, again, the idea here is that Baldwin went off. script, right? He did his own thing, which again is problematic for his case. While the defense might say that it's not Baldwin's job to check the gun, it's not his job to load it, it's not his job to know if it's loaded, and certainly as the jury in Gutierrez-Reed's case determined,

it was ultimately her job to keep a safe set, no matter what. But what I imagine the prosecution will say in Baldwin's trial is he too is to blame. He was unpredictable. He was reckless. He was dangerous? Yeah, Gutierrez-Reed should have stopped it, but he, too, is to blame. And as the producer, who, as you're about to see, was seemingly directing people what to do on set, the prosecution will argue he has a responsibility there. For example, I want you to see something. This was the rehearsal inside of the church before the gun went off. And I want you to listen to what Russ crew member Ross Adiego had to say about this very specific move that Baldwin does on camera.

Okay, ready? Okay, ready. Ready? Ready? And set. Ready and action. The blocking that you were describing as a person as a person who was working in the room, were you were you were you expecting mr. Baldwin to pull the gun all the way out like like what

we just saw in those clips in the blocking of the ECU what's the ECU extreme close-up okay I was not okay my under go ahead my understanding was it was just to kind of reveal that weapon coming out of the holster to the camera. But this idea of Alec Baldwin going off script, this was amplified a lot more when we heard from Brian Carpenter, a firearm safety expert. So a clip was played of Baldwin allegedly firing a blank gun during a take for the movie. Watch what happened. I'm going to shoot right. Do you want to go on the other side of the camera? I don't want to shoot toward you. Okay. I want to shoot close to you. Here we go. Okay. Here we go. Ready.

Go! Go! Can you give us an idea? Is it important when we hear, when you're on a movie set and you hear the word cut, is it important that the actors not continue to fire the guns? Yes. When you say cut, everything stops, and it's not just from a creative standpoint, it's also from a safety standpoint. Keep in mind, you're dealing with stunts, special effects, explosives, et cetera, et cetera. So in the word cut has said everything should see. immediately. So in this instance where Mr. Baldwin was firing the gun after the word cut, is there anything that you would have done? I would file that under the category of going as the whole thing goes off script. He went off script there and fired for whatever reason that I guess he felt he needed to, but I would have probably said something to him about that

as well. The idea is that Alec Baldwin seemingly fired after cut that this was reckless. That's the argument that prosecutors would use. But there's more. All right here in the path of the gun. Could you please move? Did you hear that? Tell us what's going on there. It sounded like Ms. Gutierrez attempting to correct the fact that she knew that Baldwin, Mr. Baldwin, was pointing that weapon in an unsafe manner, and she was attempting to move the crew out of the path of where he was pointing it and knowing that it was loaded with blanks. When you drop your arm, that means he's 10 feet away.

I can't see how close it. I want to be almost up by the time he gets in. No, I'm going to go into this. Well, let me show you something. Hold on. Step back to your original mark. So 1,000, 2, 1,000, 3, I'm getting up. Then when he drops his arm, Helena, he drops up.

That means Brady's close. I'm going to start to really get up. Do you see anything concerning here? He's doing what we saw previously in one of the other videos with the stunt performer. He's using the weapon as a pointing stick. It's his finger. And I imagine the prosecution will also say that whether the gun was loaded with live rounds or not, Baldwin shouldn't have been doing any of this.

Because listen to what carpenter says when questioned by Gutierrez-Reed's lawyer, who seemed, again, to want to cast all the blame on Alec Baldwin. Listen to his response. In the review of this case, you're not certain when those live rounds appeared, I said. What day, is that right? No. Okay. Or how they got it said? No.

Okay. But in any event, Mr. Baldwin at that moment should have still treated that weapon as if it was loaded, going back to the other rules. Correct. Now, Carpenter would go on to state it's the responsibility of the armor to step in here to correct this behavior. But Baldwin shouldn't be doing this. There was an argument put forward by the defense. And I wonder if it's going to be co-opted by the prosecution in a way during Baldwin's trial, that it was very hard for anyone to tell Baldwin, no, to tell him what to do. that it would be hard for the armor to tell him to stop,

because listen to this exchange. One more, one more, one more. I forgot the recall. Right away, right away. Let's reload. Here we go. So, Helena. Hi.

What? Here we go. Come on. Well, I had to go closer to the Danny did, so. We should have two guns and both were reloading. How many movie sets do you think you've worked on in your career? A hundred. That conduct that we're seeing on the part of Mr. Baldwin, is that typical conduct from an actor on a movie set?

No. Why not? Well, number one, he's basically instructing the armor how to do their job at that point, telling him that we should have had the gun my second reload, you know, hurry up, give it to me fast, fast, fast. This is that moment. This is that moment I spoke about earlier. This is that moment that you need to stop and say, no, I'm not going to hurry up. I'm going to slow down.

And we don't need to be, you know, passing off weapons this fast or loading guns this fast. This is creating an unsafe and nerve-wracking situation to lack to describe it in more layman's terms. always on any kind of live training, exercise, military training, or whatnot. You don't want to put people in a nervous position that creates. Now, you can stress a level of stress that's necessary in realism training. And of course, what places Alec Baldwin in a different legal position than just a regular actor was his title and position of authority. When filming in New Mexico,

Did it appear to you that Alec Baldwin was the boss? Yes. Did you ever see anybody tell Alec Baldwin no? No. And in terms of the structure, did it appear that other producers were below him? Yes. This is the way to think about this. Producer control over the set.

That's what I imagine the prosecution will argue to this jury. Now let's move on to a different aspect. of the prosecution's case training so prosecutors will try to show that alec baldwin or they will seemingly try to show that alec baldwin had an obligation to attend weapon safety trainings but well listen to what hannah gutierrez reads said about this in her interview with police what do you teach um actors or crew members when it comes to gun safety so it really um also depends on the actors, too. You know, like big ones like Nick Cage,

if they tell me, or if they tell the director, like, you know, they don't really care to do it, I can try to teach them for the most part, but like a lot of the times they might not even listen to me or really pay attention or be on their phone. Alec was on his phone, a lot of that entire thing. The actors were distracted even, too. And I tried to do my best to work with all three of them.

paying attention during safety class adds into that theory of recklessness or negligence. Little side note here, by the way. So prosecutors had been trying to force Gutierrez Reed to testify at Alec Baldwin's trial. The idea is that they would grant her immunity. We actually did a whole sidebar on this about how prosecutors could legally compel her to testify, even though she was convicted and is going to fight her case on appeal. But recently, the judge in this case decided not to allow this to happen. So she will not be required to testify. So what that means is that seemingly the only time this jury in the Alec Baldwin trial will hear Hannah Gutierrez read speak is from videos like her interview with police. Now another thing I would think prosecutors

will try to introduce, and this is particularly true, should Alec Baldwin testify, is to strike his credibility. For instance, here is Detective Alexandria Hancock, and I want you to listen to what she said happened when she spoke to Alec Baldwin. Now, as part of your investigation, you concluded not only that Hannah was not in the church at the time, but that she had handed the weapon to Mr. Halls? Yes. And did you also conclude that Mr. Halls had handed that to Mr. Baldwin? Yes. However, there were opposing statements at the beginning of the investigation.

Okay. There were conflicting statements at the beginning? Yes. So yeah, credibility issue here to make that argument. Other hand, you could say, look, this is a traumatic event. It's not surprising in these kinds of events for people to get confused, to mix up details. So maybe it's not the most important aspect of the case. And by the way, Dave Halls, who I mentioned before was the assistant director who pleaded no contest negligently using a deadly weapon for how he handled the weapon that day. Now, before I get into what came out of Gutierrez-Reed's trial, that may be helpful to Baldwin's defense. I'm going to talk about that. I want to highlight something else for a second, something else that came out before this trial. It concerned a prosecutor's filing. So the prosecutors filed what's called a notice of intent to introduce evidence of crimes, wrongs or other acts. Generally speaking, you aren't allowed to present that kind of evidence to a jury because it's unfairly prejudicial.

It's not relevant. You can't say, well, we're going to show you evidence of this person's character, so he must have acted that way in this particular incident. You can't say somebody has a propensity to do this kind of thing. There is an exception. You can say that this evidence is actually intrinsic or directly connected to the crime itself. You can say you were presenting this evidence to prove something else like motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, lack of an accident. The prosecutor's right in this filing quote, in this case, evidence of defendant's conduct between October 12th,

through the 21st, 2021, so again, before the actual shooting, outlined in the introductory section, as it relates to the firearm in issue in this matter and his handling thereof is relevant because it is part of the crime of involuntary manslaughter as it shows defendant's recklessness or criminal negligence on October 21st, 2021 when he shot and killed Helena Hutchins. Defendant's acts are intrinsic as they conform to a reckless mens rea present on October 21st, 2021. That's the mental state. And this is, of course, when the defendant, they say, shot Helena Hutchins. So what do prosecutors want to show at trial? They say, quote, one, Alec Baldwin used his gun as a pointer directing crew members. Two, discharge the revolver

after the filming was over and cut was called in violation of rules governing the safe handling a firearms unset. Three, the defendant shot several scenes wherein he placed his finger on the trigger of the revolver where the scene did not require any shooting of the firearm. Four, rush the armor to reload and crew members to work at a faster pace. Five was inattentive during the firearms training conducted by Ms. Gutierrez and was distracted by texting, facetiming family members and making videos for his family's enjoyment. Six, engaged in horseplay with the revolver while making videos during his firearms training

while using pole load blanks. Seven, displayed erratic and aggressive behavior. during the filming of Russ that created potential safety concerns. Eight displayed reckless behavior as it related to the use of a firearm, such as pointing it and firing a blank round at a crew member while using that crew member as a line of sight as his perceived target. And nine after October 21st, 2021. So after the shooting, was insistent that he not be required to follow safety recommendations made by film set safety experts on the continuation of the filming of Rust in Montana. So if prosecutors are able to actually introduce evidence like

this, this could be potentially quite problematic to Baldwin's defense. Now let's talk about the defense. So as I mentioned, the defense will probably spend a lot of time on the gun, how the actual weapon in this case was destroyed by the FBI, that we can't know for sure if it was in a condition that it could be misfired or if it could malfunction. Also, the idea that he is not to blame, right? They'll say he's an actor. He's not the armorer. It's not his job to know if a gun is loaded or not.

He assumes it's safe because Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the armorer, had handled it. And that applies the same way to a producer. Yeah, he was a producer, but he was a producer more in name than in practice. And even so, does that make him responsible for firearms on set? It seems Baldwin will put the focus and blame on Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. she was just convicted. I mean, some of the worst evidence for her and maybe the best evidence for Baldwin was in her police interviews. I went back through a bag that I had. This bag had like a bunch of loose dummies in it. And I went through and I checked all of them and I put them into

two boxes. And so we had two boxes of 45 long cool dummies that were mine from the last show. And they were in my car for like two weeks. I jumped right off of the old way into this. I was barely home for like a week so he told you to check your sweat yeah and what you had to take it yeah so you authorized me to bring yeah to be clear she admitted that she took ammunition from another production round she left in her car for two weeks and put them in boxes for the rust set prosecutor said that is not proper safety protocol here but there's more is exactly what it looked like was in there. Okay.

And that one doesn't have any holes. The last one, yeah. Honestly, that box of dummies might have some wonky ones in it. And we got that, I think, a week ago. Have you ever, in your history of working, encountered wide rounds on a sec? Never. Okay. And how do you know that?

Because every dummy I've ever shaken has been a dummy and the other ones have holes in the side and I've never experienced the round that look like a dummy and behaved like a blank or anything. So, yeah, I am shaking all of them most of the time. Most of the time? Most of the time? Look, the argument that worked for the prosecution to convict Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was that she wasn't diligent. And as much as she said, she was rushed and she was working to. jobs and she couldn't do the proper safety checks, the jury didn't buy it.

The idea was it was her job to slow things down. It was her job to make sure no live rounds were in the gun. It was her job to make sure a shooting on set does not happen. And remember, the prosecution suggested that the live ammo came from her and not the weapons and ammo supplier, Seth Kenny, from PDQ props. Once again, this is lead investigator Alexandria Hancock. The live ammunition that you seized from PDQ props, what did you do with it? We submitted all the live ammunition for testing with the FBI.

And did you receive information that the live ammunition from PDQ didn't match the live ammunition on the set of rest? That's correct. It didn't match at all. And going back to the shooting, I can imagine Baldwin's defense team will say, this was the armorer's fault because the gun was in her possession and it was her job to check it along with Dave Halls before this weapon was handed off to yes our client Alec Baldwin again just an actor did miss Gutier as leave walk away from the cart with Mr. Baldwin's

gun yes and who put the dummies in mr. Baldwin's gun Hannah you indicated that you only saw three or four, you didn't see six. I don't recall her fully rotating the cylinder. Okay. You don't recall her fully rotating it? I do that. Okay. And even though the cylinder wasn't fully rotated,

did you let that safety check sort of pass. I did. Okay. Were you criminally charged in this case? I was. And did you enter a no-contest plea to negligent use of a firearm? I did.

I was negligent checking the gun properly. In your experience, should the armor ever leave a gun with anyone else and leave the area? Not a live weapon, no. And when I say live, I mean, a weapon. capable of firing a round or a blank. I also think that there could be an avenue for Alec Baldwin's defense team to argue or to suggest, okay, you want to say he didn't intend safety trainings? Well, guess what?

If it was conducted by Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, what good would that have been? I wasn't the only one breaking the rules. It seems like no one knew what to do, including Hannah-Gutierrez-Reed herself. So don't blame me for not paying attention or going to trainings. I think that's a fair argument. Do you see anything concerning in this video? The number one thing is muzzle discipline. That performer, that stunt performer, I'm assuming that's a stunt performer out there,

has got what appears to be live weapons, and he's got zero muzzle discipline. He's holding the shotgun, and if you'll back it up to the beginning, he points it almost directly at, I believe it's Joel Sousa. Well, from what I can see from the camera angles is I don't know if she's present here, and it appears that they have live weapons out. without her presence. If she were present, I would ask that she, well, I would think that she would tell that performer that you need to put the weapon pointed down at the ground if she's standing there with him. Did you see anything noteworthy in that clip? Muscle discipline, but more

importantly, there was a weapon exchange that occurred with, I didn't see a safety check between those weapons. And did you just see Ms. Gutier's come into the frame? I did. Okay, she's carrying the double-bill shotgun, it looks like. muzzle end up is that a proper way to carry that gun it is not is that a safe way to carry that gun it is not so with all that said this was just a mere preview of what we may see at the upcoming trial of alec baldwin beginning on july 9th and we plan to follow this trial for you every step of the way we will be putting out episodes doing breakdowns of the testimony and the day's events so hopefully you can check that all out and remember despite the evidence alick baldwin is innocent

He has to be proven guilty. And in a case that in many ways is unprecedented, we will see how this all shakes out. But at the end of the day, we can't forget that this isn't about Hanna Gutierrez read. This isn't about Alec Baldwin. This is about Helena Hutchins, who tragically lost her life in an accident that should never have happened. That's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time.