Law&Crime Sidebar - Top 10 Wildest Moments of Alex Jones' First Defamation Trial

Episode Date: August 6, 2022

Jesse Weber and Law&Crime Network's Executive Producer Cathy Russon break down the top 10 most outrageous moments in the Alex Jones trial!GUESTS:Cathy Russon, Executive Producer at Law&Crime Network: twitter.com/cathyrussonLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerGuest Booking - Alyssa FisherSocial Media Management - Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaCoptales and CocktailsThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. views shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. I'm now going to read the answers given by those jurors, just the answers. Question 1A, $50,000. Question 1B. $10,000. Question 1C, $50,000. Question 1D, no dollars. Question 2A, $1.5 million. Question 2B, $500,000. Question 3A, $1.5 million, and question 3B, half a million. Is this your verdict? the 10 of you who signed it. With the jury awarding the plaintiff's millions in the Alex Jones trial, we take a look back

at some of the wildest and most explosive moments. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. All right, let's talk the Alex Jones trial. Now, as we've reported, Neil Hesslin and Scarlett Lewis, the parents of six-year-old Jesse Lewis, who was tragically killed in the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. They filed a lawsuit against Alex Jones. and his company for defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Why? Well, because of the comments that Jones made casting doubt that Sandy Hook was a real shooting. He, in fact, called it a hoax and even went so far to say that Hessland's recollection of cradling his Den Sudd's body was fake. Now, since Jones didn't follow through with court orders in this case, a default judgment was entered against him, meaning he lost. He was automatically found liable by the court. The question in this trial and the question for this jury is how much does he have to pay to the parents?

Well, the jury came back and they awarded over $4.1 million in compensatory damages. These are damages meant to compensate the plaintiffs for what the harm they suffered and for what they lost. After all, these were people who were threatened by Jones supporters over the years. But that was a lot less than what they were asking for, which was $150 million. but we can't forget that this is only part one of the trial. The jury actually also has to decide punitive damages. Now, these are damages meant to punish a defendant for particularly bad or egregious conduct, really bad wrongdoing and to deter them from acting in this way in the future. Now, at the time of this recording, the jury has yet to come back on that amount. So what we decided to do

was to go through the top 10 moments from this trial. And joining me is a very special guest, the person who clipped out these moments and posted them on her Twitter account in rapid-fire succession, the person who has been following this case as religiously as me, executive producer at the Law and Crime Trial Network,

Kathy Russon. Kathy, welcome to sidebar. Hi, Jesse. Glad to be here. Great to have you. Let's just start with the jury's award for the compensatory damages, the 4.1. It came in. We were watching it together. What did you think? Well, they asked for 150 million. And so it sounded like a big number when it came back. I wasn't surprised. I knew that they would

award in the millions. I don't think I really knew what to expect, quite frankly. A little interesting tidbit, though, is when I tweeted that out, somebody responded back, well, that's just five days of work for Alex Jones because I'll talk about later in some text messages he says he made $4 million in one week last year or the year before or something. Yeah. And actually during the closing arguments on the punitive damages, that was an argument that was made by the plaintiff's attorneys that he can make that money back in a day in a week. So it's not really. So it's interesting to see where they go with the punitive. Look, $4 million is still $4 million. And Alex Joe's on the stand said, look, anything over two million is going to crush us, but I don't know if that's entirely true, Kathy.

So I actually think we should start with, want to talk about the credibility of Alex Jones. Let's talk about it. So this is the big bombshell that happened the other day. And this is when Alex Jones, he had taken the stand. He testified in his own defense. And he was being questioned under cross examination by the plaintiff's attorney. And under cross, they hit him with this revelation. this revelation that Jones's attorney accidentally sent all of Jones's text to the plaintiff's

attorney let's watch Jones you know how an iPhone works right you've had like contact messages for several years now yeah what does it mean if the messages are in blue whose messages are those whose phone is this taken from I don't know what's going to tell you no I mean I just I turn the phone over and take stuff off. Can I have you look in the very bottom below the very bottom left corner? Is that your phone number? Yes. So you did get my text messages. And I said you didn't. Nice trick. I thought that's not. Yes, Mr. Jones. Indeed. You didn't give this text message to me. You don't know where this came from.

Do you know where I got this? No. Mr. Jones. Did you know that 12 days ago, 12 days ago, your attorney's messed up and sent me an entire digital copy of your entire cell phone with every text message you've sent for the past two years, and when informed, did not take any steps to identify it as privileged or protected in any way, and as of two days ago, it fell free and clear into my possession, and that is how I know you lied to me when you said you didn't have a text message about it. did you know that I see I told you the truth this is your Perry Mason moment I gave them my phone and mr. Jones you need to answer the question no I don't know this happened but I mean I told you I gave him a phone over and you said you said in your deposition you searched your phone you said you pulled down the text did the

search function for Sandy Hook that's what you said mr. Jones correct and I had several several different phones with this number, but I did. Yeah. Of course. I mean, that's why you've got it. No, Mr. Jones. That's not why now. My lawyer sent it to you, but I'm hiding it. Okay. Mr. Jones, please just answer questions. There's no question. Mr. Bankston also only asked questions. All right, Kathy. So aside from the fact that the animosity between these two is so palpable, I have to ask you, do you think that Jones didn't know? that his attorneys had done this. Do you think he was just hit with that on the stand?

Yes, I do believe. I do believe we saw a moment that does not happen in real courtrooms across America. It's not law and order. It's not Perry Mason. There aren't these big bombshell surprises that happen. They just don't. We have rules about that. So that honestly took all of us aback. He has in several depositions pre-trial over and over again said he has no text messages about Sandy Hook. He's lied and lied and lied about it. And so they caught him. And it's because his attorney, it's a law clerk apparently or an illegal assistant sent an electronic link to the plaintiff attorney. And also that included and she included his attorney Raynaud in that email with a link to some stuff. What they didn't know is that link included

everything and everything and everything and the dog like medical records, text messages. There was nothing, attorney-client privileged emails, conversant, everything got sent to the plaintiff's attorney 12 days ago. And then when Bankston, the plaintiff's attorney got up and said, when we realized, we had our people download, whatever this link was, they sent. And when it took up so much of our server, we thought, what is this stuff? And when we realized what had happened, I emailed Mr. Renal, and I told him, do you know that you gave us all? this. And Ms. Rennell said, oh, ignore that. I'll send you a new link. That's what Bankson said. And Nixon said, to this day, right now, today, Your Honor, there was no new link. So if he had discovery, he was sending me, he didn't. And he never wants asserted privilege on anything he sent

me. What a mess. Total mess. What a mess. And look, for Alex Jones, it's problematic, because obviously the jury is probably wondering, should we believe him when his text messages are basically contradicting everything that he's saying. And there was all. Also, I have to find a very interesting, there's questions of whether or not he committed perjury, and if he's going to be brought up on perjury charges. And we know that the January 6th Commission, who's been trying to get his text messages, well, now that they're not privileged, they might have access to them. So the fact that this happened in real time, and we saw it unfold, is just amazing, right, Kathy? Incredible. It's really a moment you don't see in real life.

Well, can I just say that I think one of the most surreal aspects of this trial is, is when we saw Alex Jones, who has been adamant in the past, this whole case was that he was adamant that Sandy Hook didn't happen or that he cast doubt on it, to say in open court that he was wrong, that was a big moment. Let's watch. You refer you to the end of 2014. We've had a video received in evidence of you stating your belief at that time that no one died at Sandy Hook, that the whole thing was fake.

Do you understand, as you sit here today, how crazy that is? I have said before that there have been so many lives and so many things in the past, and I was under a lot of pressure, and I truly, when I said those statements, when I say something I mean it, that I really could believe that it was totally staged at that point. And I was basing that off of really Steve Pachennick, who is, has been a very prestigious person. Do you understand now that it was absolutely irresponsible of you to do that? It was, especially since I met the parents. And it's 100% real, as I sell the radio yesterday.

And as I said here yesterday, it's 100% real. And the media still ran with lies that I was saying it wasn't real on there yesterday. It's incredible. They won't let me take it back. They just want to keep me in the position of being the Sandy Hookman. My son got in front of yesterday. There was a projection speculation as to what the media is Mr. Jones is just being on the show. Sustained.

So, Kathy, on one hand, I have to say, it was, I mean, his best defense and something for him to admit that he was wrong. But I also love that he turns it around and says that he's the victim. and the media conflated his words and made him the bad guy for years. It's just like not that surprising on that end either. Oh, Alex Jones is definitely a victim. He always thinks he's a victim. But so, okay, great moment that he says on the stand, I 100% believe it's real.

The problem with that is they were able to show that right now, currently last week on his show, right now in the last couple months, several times where he says things like I feel horrible as a father and then he says if children died in Sandy Hook why does he say if so he's still putting something out there for the viewers and so his his words and there was this message

wasn't this message where he compared the response to the COVID-19 pandemic to Sandy Hook so two years ago so he said he understand he said that, you know, years ago, he realized this is 100% true. But they were able to show the text messages that they weren't supposed to have that Alex Jones didn't think they had, where two years ago, he's speaking with one of his writers, the producers, on a text message about how Corona, and that guy saying, you know, coronavirus is fake. It's Sandy Hook all over again. And Alex Jones says, yeah, yeah, I get what you're talking about. So he and they as an organization

still either don't fully believe it's 100% true or are very happy to lead their listeners down a conspiracy road still with Sandy Hook. You know, there's a part of me that felt that maybe he was really apologetic and he felt bad about what he did. And then he goes on his show and insults the plaintiffs. He calls Neil Heslin Slow, says that he might be autistic. And then this was the part that shocked me. This is the next part we got to go into.

is after court, after the judge leaves, after the jury leaves, he goes up to Scarlett Lewis and Neil Heslin, shakes their hands, and apologizes until he's quickly stopped by one of the plaintiff's attorneys and fireworks just erupt. And that he's slow. No, I'm slow. I'm slow. I'll be honest on here. not talking anymore if you're not doing that's not even thought that's not the way this goes I think I think I'm autistic too I mean I'm autistic too buddy I mean can you can you explain that to me why he did that so he did that so the exact order of Vance is Scarlett Lewis actually went up to Alex Jones after in a very kind, loving gesture.

As far as I'm a mother, I'd have never walked up to him. So she's a much bigger person. He got done testifying and everybody left. She brought him a bottle of water and what it looked like in her other hand, she handed something very small to his other hand. I believe it was like Tylenol, ibuprofen or something because he'd been complaining about his tooth that he had pulled and that he'd been in pain. believe that she gave him water and maybe some anti implant. I know something like that, something over the counter because he said, oh, thank you. I appreciate it. So she made that gesture. Then he takes that opportunity to say to her and you can't hear everything. But you can

tell us, obviously he's apologizing for whatever. We don't really know. Right. And then Neil kind of walks into the picture, the father. And, and he said, you know, again, like, I'm sorry. And Neil does not look like he's as happy. You know, Alex reaches out his hand and Neil does shake. it. But then the attorney gets involved. And he says, do you want to be sorry for calling him slow and autistic? And then Alex Jones said something again, you can't really hear. Then the attorney says, we're not doing this. We're not doing this. And then it was like, and then Alex Jones goes, fine, show him some more of your fake videos. And so, right, fake videos. So he still thinks there's a conspiracy going with Sandy Hook. And the attorney says, or the trial for sure. And the attorney goes,

Oh, shut your mouth. And he says, why don't you make me shut my mouth? I mean, come on. Now, no jury and no judge was there. But this all happened. And then somebody, I think it might have been Neil, but it's off camera. But somebody says, my son is autistic or my child, something like that. It makes a different kid.

And that's when Alex Jones goes, I actually think I'm autistic. I'm like, okay, all right. Okay. Can you just stop talking? Just stop talking. it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's I always ask myself is Alex Jones playing a part right is this all for the show but because on one hand he goes on a show and he insults the plaintiffs then he's apologizing to them is it two different people is he what's really the main motivation

it just seems so surprising to me that he chose to do that and look you mentioned the judge wasn't there and I think it was probably a good thing well clearly that the jury wasn't there but maybe that the judge wasn't there because the judge and Alex Jones, they have gotten into some heated exchanges. Let's take a look. You believe everything you say is true, but it isn't. Your beliefs do not make something true. That is what we're doing here.

Just because you claim to think something is true does not make it true. It does not protect you. It is not allowed. You are under oath. That means things must actually. be true when you say them. Don't talk. You're already under oath to tell the truth. You've already violated that oath twice today in just those two examples. It seems absurd to instruct you again that you must tell the truth while you testify,

yet here I am. You must tell the truth while you testify. This is not your I got to tell you, I've never seen this kind of interaction really between a defendant and a judge, let alone a judge saying that a defendant has just lied on the stand. So if you're talking about perjury charges, having the judge make a statement like that is huge. What was your reaction to that? There's so much to unpack in just what we just saw. one, the judge says on the record that Alex Jones has lied at least two times under, oh, I would say that's perjury charges coming or should be.

Secondly, she says, oh, by the way, by the way, what he lied about was saying that he complied with discovery requests, which he didn't, and that he was bankrupt, which is not necessarily true. He might have filed the company that owns Info Wars for bankruptcy, but that doesn't mean make it bankrupt. Correct. He told the jury, I complied with all discovery orders. No, the entire reason that you have default judgments against you in all these cases is because you would not comply. You would not turn over all your financials. You would not turn over everything. So, and she said, and just because you may have filed bankruptcy, I don't know that. I read that. But just because a person files for bankruptcy does not make them bankrupt. So stop lying. And she said, just because you think something is true it's not i mean there was just so oh and the best part is this is not your show yeah well i mean

i think a lot of people who are anti anti anti alex jones they love this because someone's putting him in his place and this is not his opportunity to just interrupt and get out his message there are courtroom rules there's courtroom decorum and he has to follow it do you think that she's been the judge gamble has been fair though from what you've seen she's been more than fair look This is what we do for a living, Jesse. We see inside the courtrooms all across the nation every single day and how all different judges work and all different districts and jurisdictions work. Alex Jones has been able to come and go as he pleases in that court.

He shows up mid-testimony with an entourage, walks in, sits down. She doesn't say a word to him. He doesn't come or he does come. She doesn't order him to be there in person. He literally does what he wants. And I think she's been very patient with him. And also, she's getting a lot of love on social media, a lot of love for how she's handling him because she's no nonsense, but she almost like talks to him like your mother would. Like you are not allowed to say that.

Do you understand? And then he'll go to say something and she'll say, don't talk or she'll say sit down. So I don't think she's being unfair at all. I think, I mean, I just think of like, think of the written house judge or somebody else. that could have just really go off on him. I think she's handling him just right. Well, watching the way he's been behaving, the question is, does he take this trial seriously?

And that was brought into question. Judge Maya Gamble comes from CPS, who has been exposed for human trafficking and working with pedophiles. That's what you mean when you say you're taking this seriously. I take this as serious to cancer. He says he takes him. I'm sorry to laugh, because this is a very serious subject matter, but you can't make this up.

You really can't. He says he takes the trial seriously, and yet on his Info War show, they're trashing the judge. He is trashing the judge and the jury and the plaintiffs in real time as the trial is going, almost on a daily basis. The man, he, the nerve of him. But what he said in that clip, he went on his show and said, the judge used or works or comes from CPS, because she used to be like a family corridor, she works in that, comes from CPS, which we know has already been linked to child sex trafficking. Okay. And so you're on. And then that's why he

says, so you really think you're taking this trial seriously? I take it as seriously as cancer. It's like he has no respect for anything or anybody or any subject or topic or he has, he's told, he said the juror on his show, these jurors are blue collar workers that don't know anything about. They've never heard of me. But he said blue color like a put down. Yeah, he said they don't know what planet they're on. They don't know what planet they're on. And honestly, I tweeted that with a comment that said, I would think that works in Alex

Jones favor if the jury had never heard of him and don't know who he is. Well, here's the thing I'll say. I think he's defending himself off air because he needs the donations. He if he needs money coming in right now as he's, by the way, I think they even says on InfoWars were under attack, he needs to maintain his support from people. And if he has a product that people respond to as outrageous as it is, he's going to keep feeding it. And look, I think, Kathy, this might have all started with the infamous gum incident.

Let's turn to that. That's good. You're going out, Mr. Jones. It's not gone. What is it? Because you're not allowed food or gum of any kind in the courtroom. I had my tooth pole a week and a half ago. And it's, I have, I had some laws in our earth.

earlier and it's been causing you to have some pain. So you're chewing on your gauze? Would you like to show you? No, I just want you to answer my question. No, I was massaging a hole in my mouth with my tongue. I'm here, right here. I don't want to see the inside of your mouth. Oh no, there's no gun.

Hold. Sit down. Sit down. And if you wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, you might have until the camera later caught him putting something in his mouth. in his mouth. I'll ask you, Kathy. You think he was chewing gum or what?

I actually don't think he was chewing gum when she asked him. I do think he was probably doing what he said, which was massaging the hole in his mouth with his tongue, way more information than anyone wants. And the thing is, she's been on that kick because his attorney has been, has, has, has chewed gum and she's chewed him out a couple of times. But the way Alex Jones responds is very childlike. So he's like opening his mouth. Do you want to see? Do you want to see? Turns around for everyone in the courtroom to see. I'll show you. I'll show you here. Do you want to see? Do you want to see? Literally like my child would. And she's like, I don't want to see the inside of

your mouth. Sit down. Doesn't it feel like an S&L skit? It's crazy. Yes. Yes. It's great. Esedal can't even do this because it's already been done in real life. Mr. Jones, put your tongue away. Mr. Jones, I don't want to see the inside of your mouth. And, like, look, he is trying every which way throughout the course of this trial to say it's unfair and that this is a witch hunt and everyone's coming out for him. So, yeah, that's what he's trying to show. I mean, when this came out, it was, it was something.

But I will tell you, I don't think it's fair to say that Judge Gamble has only directed her agitation only at Alex Jones. We've seen it directed at a witness, and this is Owen Schroier. This is another host on InfoWars, and apparently she wasn't happy that he didn't follow the court rules. You testified just today that you or a guest or a co-host with Mr. Jones on Tuesday. Is that right? Yes.

And you testified. testified that you did a show and then a second show, is that right? Yes. And what were the topics of those two shows? I mean, were any of the topics of those two shows this, this trial? Yes. Okay. Did you and Mr. Jones talk about anything that happened at the trial?

I don't recall exactly what was discussed. Are they still available for viewing? I believe so. So you think you talked about the trial? you talked about the trial without talking about what happened at the trial? I'm not not sure. Well, you just told me that the topic included this trial, didn't you? Yes. Okay. And I'm asking you, did you talk about what happened in this

court? You said, I don't remember. Well, I just don't recall the exact details. I'm not asking you for any details. Did you talk about things that happened in this Yes. Didn't Mr. Raynall inform you that you were under the rule? What rule? So is that a no? Did he have a conversation with you about being under the rule? He did. He told me I'm not to watch any other witness testimony. Did he not tell you you weren't to speak with any other witness?

Um, I don't believe so. Did he not tell you you weren't supposed to discuss anything that happened in this courtroom during the court room? in this courtroom during your trial? No. Okay. And so from there, she turned her attention to Alex Jones' attorney and Dino Raynau.

Mr. Raynaul, on Tuesday, when you invoked the rule in this case, I also, in addition to reading what I just read, read the following portion. Counsel,

inform your other witnesses that the rule has been invoked and the effect of the rule. Did you hear me say that on Tuesday? I did your honor. Did you follow my instructions? Clearly not the way you're on. I can assure your honor that they did not discuss anybody's. It will be easy to find out if they discussed the case, won't it? Certainly, Your Honor, I misunderstood based on my experience and my practice.

Because you're just a brand new lawyer, right? Enough with the awshucks. I don't know the rules of court. Now, I want to make it clear. Anyone who might be a witness needs to be informed tonight about the rule, that it has been invoked and what it means, which is that they will not speak to any other person, except one of the lawyers, not a party, lawyer, about anything having to do with this case and this trial.

Do you understand, Mr. Raynall? Crystal. Thank you. Do not get on her bad side, Kathy. Enough with the all shucks, man. I mean, it was as if he was looking down, kicking rocks with his hands in his pockets. So this is all about witnesses are told they cannot discuss the trial with other words. witnesses. They can't share their testimony with other witnesses. This is the rule that's invoked in

trials everywhere. And it was invoked. And Rinal is the one that asked for it to be invoked on day one of the trial. And this is when we first learned. So this, this was like day three of the trial. And we learned that on day one, Alex Jones had Owen on the show. And they were talking about the trial. And so that's what that was all about. Now, I will say a little bit in Rinald's defense, what he was trying to say, because I could read between the lines, but he decided not to go any further, is when they had gone on air, there really hadn't been testimony that happened yet, just opening statements. And so that's, I think, what he was trying to get at about they didn't discuss testimony or their testimony or anything like that, but he decided to just shut it down.

He wasn't going to argue with her anymore. But he's become a big central part of this as well. I mean, first he flips off the opposing counsel in court. Then he does this. He doesn't instruct the witness about the rule. Then his office or his team mistakenly sends all the tax messages of his client. It's not great. Crazy. I mean, just crazy that he, I don't know. I don't know if he's going to get the wrath of Alex Jones when this is all said and done or what, but there have been so many missteps from that side in this case, just in the last two weeks. Well, the argument is are they purposely doing that to get a mistrial? I mean, everyone, everyone argues can you really get a mistrial because he's already been found that he defamed right so that was all right so now we're just talking about damages i guess the mistrial would be collect a new jury and have jury hear the damages but i don't think so you know honestly people think that a lot about defense attorneys that they try and purposely get um which is illegal by the way effective counsel whatever i really on attorneys have a pretty big ego and i really don't think that they get up there and

purposely want to show that they're a horrible attorney. I don't see that. Real quick, before I let you go, Kathy, we covered the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial. Now we're covering this. Do you see similarities in the response online or people as engaged with this trial as they were with that one? Yes, crazy. I don't know if we'll ever see another one like Depp Heard, but the numbers are very, getting

very close to Depp Heard. The difference is in the Depp Heard trial, the comments and the viewers were really skewed to depth and and the minority was for heard um i would say it's definitely still majority for the plaintiffs and sandy hook and but there are a lot of alex jones supporters and followers and so the comments that are left on our youtube and on my twitter um they're out there and they are staunch and i have to say i received an email to our tips line that was horrific let's just say that from an Alex Jones supporter. So he's very polarizing.

Both of these trials have similarities in that way where it's like celebrity. I put that in air quotes. I don't know if Alex Jones celebrity, I guess he is. And people are fascinated with it and outraged on whatever side they take. His popularity is one of the central reasons in this case, why they're trying to go after so many damages. Obviously, the supporters threatening the plaintiffs. But also, as we talked about earlier, the more support he gets, the more money.

he could be getting as well so it's fascinating to follow kathy loved having you here on sidebar breaking it down for any everybody should follow kathy uh on twitter and kathy what is your twitter handle for everybody to follow at kathy russin russon i want to add one thing jesse if i can so we can just bring this full circle jesse lewis was six years old and he was a first grader and when the shooter's gun jammed he yelled at his classmates to run and he's been credited with safe classmate's lives at six years old. And these parents have been through something so horrific and they deserve to win this case. And they deserve any amount of money that that jury awards them because of what Alex Jones did on top of the most painful thing they'll ever go through.

So I just wanted to bring it back around to Jesse Lewis. And I think that should be the lasting memory of this case more than the antics in the courtroom. But Kathy, I think we'll leave it right there. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Jesse. All right, everybody. Thanks for joining us here on Saibar. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast.

Cybar is produced by Sam Goldberg, YouTube manager, Robert Zoki, and Alyssa Fisher as our booking producer. And, of course, our video editor, Michael Dininger. I'm Jesse Weber. Speak to you next time. You can binge all episodes of this law and crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.