Law&Crime Sidebar - Top 7 Explosive Moments in Alec Baldwin Armorer Trial For ‘Rust’ Movie Set Shooting

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

The prosecutors who accuse Hannah Gutierrez-Reed of negligence and evidence tampering rested their case Monday. Gutierrez-Reed’s legal team will now present their defense. The young armorer was in charge of all weapons and ammunition on the set of the movie "Rust" in New Mexico in 2021. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber breaks down seven major moments in the trial so far.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can submit a claim in 8 clicks or less without having to leave your couch. To start your claim, visit: https://www.forthepeople.com/LCSidebarThis episode of Sidebar is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/sidebar and get on your way to being your best self!HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. I'm like the only female armor in the game and I just f***ed up my one's own. What would you like, sir? We're trying to get to the truth. That's what I'd like. Well, then the failure was not Ms. Beteris Reid's, what you wanted to imply to the jury, it was Mr. Halls, wasn't it? Ms. Gutierrez-Reed loaded a firearm that killed my friend and injured a director. From nasty bickering between attorneys to tense moments on the stand to shocking videos taken

from the movie set, we are breaking down some of the more explosive moments in the trial of Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the former armorer that prosecutors say is responsible for the shooting death on the film set Rust. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. I will be the first to tell you that I knew when we started covering the Rust shooting trial, there were going to be moments, okay? I mean, we are talking about whether somebody should be held criminally responsible

for a tragic shooting on a movie set. But we have had, so far, some very, very memorable, explosive, tense moments so far, and that's what we're going to get into. Now, of course, this is the trial of Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. She was hired as the armor and prop assistant at 24 years old for the film Russ that was filming out in New Mexico. And back on October 21st, 2021, while rehearsing a scene inside of a church, actor Alec Baldwin was handling an 1880s prop gun when a live round went off, killing cinematographer Helena Hutchins and injuring director Joel Sousa. After a long investigation, involuntary manslaughter charges were filed against. against both Baldwin and Hannah Gutierrez-Reed in January of 2023.

Baldwin's charges were actually dismissed in April, but then refiled in January of 2024. You see, prosecutors said that they got a new analysis of the weapon from experts in ballistics and forensic testing, and it proved that the only way the gun could have gone off under those circumstances was if the trigger was pulled. And that's important because Baldwin had previously and famously claimed that he did not pull the trigger, most notably said that in an ABC interview.

While we now know that Baldwin will go to trial in July, trial expected to last around eight days, well, let's go back to Hannah Gutierrez read in the trial that we're currently in. So, as I mentioned, she is charged with involuntary manslaughter. The idea is that she negligently used the weapon, that she acted without due caution or circumspection, but she is also charged with evidence tampering for allegedly trying to get another crew member to hide a baggie of cocaine as police were investigating the shooting in keeping with the theme that Gutierrez-Reed ran a sloppy, unorganized, unprofessional

operation with her allegedly smoking marijuana the night before the shooting that she was hung over on the day of the shooting. Prosecutors seemed to be suggesting that the defendant wanted maybe to get rid of evidence. Now, the defense has taken the opposite position. They say that it wasn't that Gutierrez-Reed failed in her job. or failed in doing her job. It was that basically it was impossible for her to do her job, that she was taking on the responsibility of two roles. Alec Baldwin is both the lead star, the producer of the film.

He was rushing the production. Producers were at fault for not keeping a safe set. But that is the backstory. That's the backstory from both sides. Now let's get into some explosive moments. Okay. We're going to first go to the testimony of Ross Adiego. He was the Dolly Grip on the film.

set. And he was there when there were these accidental discharges that were happening on the Russ set. This is before the shooting of Helena Hutchins. And something that he testified to was that he didn't know if he had ever experienced before accidental discharges like the son of set. He claims that he expressed his anger and frustration about the safety concerns. But he was there on the day of the fatal shooting. I think Alec had drawn it once to kind of audition what he thought his action should be for Joel, and then he drew it again, and it went off instantly. I mean, a firearm went off in a small wooden church, so the concussion, ears ringing, that moment of panic in everybody, I think the first person I made eye contact with was

plus Helena I think Reed, I recall Reed and Surge moving pew out of the way to help Helena get to basically to lay Helena down and start tending to figure out what her injuries were

and he believes he knows where the fault lies saying this is not a case of sabotage Do you have any reason to believe that live ammunition was planted by disgruntled crew members who left that morning? I do not. Do you have any understanding of who the person was that loaded that gun? Yes. Who is the person that you believe loaded the gun?

The armor. And who's that person? Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. Major witness for the prosecution, right? But then, on cross-examination, attorney Jason Bowles, who is representing Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, grilled Adiego with some very tough questions and some tough responses followed. You've sued Rest Production and Alec Baldwin, hadn't you? I have.

You what? Yes. You have a pending lawsuit right now, don't you? As far as I know, it's pending, yes, sir. And your attorney's in the courtroom? He is indeed. Been watching your test. money? Clearly. See how you do? You'd have to ask him, sir. And you've sued Alec Baldwin

in Rust Production, but you have not sued Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, have you? Again, you'd have to talk to my counsel about who I've actually sued. Have you read the lawsuit? I perused it. You perused it. What does that mean? Did you read all the paragraphs, or did you just read page one and just said knock yourself out lawyer go ahead um i think i got past page one but since i'm not in your industry i don't understand what a lot of that is and i trust my counsel to represent me it seems like you're making a lot of opinions earlier in what armors do you file the lawsuit let me ask you this are you hoping that you can come in and testify here today and something happens to miss guters read it you can it'll help your lawsuit i'm hoping for just

Sir. Two people were injured on a film set. That has not only affected me, that has affected the film industry. And you want money for that? I want justice. Do you understand, or did you understand that the armor operates on Channel 1, and that's when that's called out on Channel 1 and it goes to David Halls? Did you know that? If it only goes to Channel 1 and Dave Halls, then somebody's failed at their job because their job is to let everybody know what's going on with Fire. firearms and ammunition on set. And were you aware then, sir, before you gave your testimony of the jury that that responsibility is Mr. Hall's then to call out, we're going to have a gun scene?

Were you aware of that? I'm aware of what Mr. Halls' responsibilities are, certainly. Okay. Well, then, why didn't you say that earlier, that when this was called out, you may have been on the wrong channel. Maybe Mr. Halls didn't call it out. Did you not know that? I don't understand your question.

I wasn't on the wrong channel. I'm on Channel 8, where I'm supposed to be, sir. Okay, well, then the failure was not Ms. Gutierrez-Reed's, which you wanted to imply to the jury, it was Mr. Halls, wasn't it? Ms. Gutierrez-Reed loaded a firearm that killed my friend and injured a director. No mincing words about how he feels and what he believes happened here. But moving on, you want to talk about some explosive, heated moments in this trial so far. Let's talk about the attorneys.

So again, we have Gutierrez-Reed's attorney, Jason Bowles, on one side. And then on the other side, we have special prosecutor, Carrie Morsi. And this happened, when I'm about to highlight, during questioning of Corporal Alexander Hancock from the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office, she was leading the investigation. And Bowles was questioning her about where exactly the live rounds came from. While the prosecution has asserted that Gutierrez-Reed brought the rounds onto the set, the defense has cast a doubt on that and focused a lot of attention on Seth Penny. This is the ammunition and weapons supplier for the film, who we're going to talk about a little bit later. Now, as Bowles is cross-examining Corporal Hancock,

you are hearing all of these speaking objections from Morrissey, and it's tense. Seth Kinney was the primary source of ammunition to the set. I will object to the form of that question. It is completely contrary to the evidence that the jury has heard, and Mr. Bowles knows it. Actually, Your Honor, I don't. And I'm asking your question.

is perfectly permissible to ask her if she disagree do you know what the discussed we're back to hearsay and so I want to make a hearsay objection I can't figure out what the exception would be to this and again your honor all worded in terms of her course of investigation and the effect and it's not for the truth I'm just trying to find out well let's see if it has let's see if it meets effect on listener i haven't heard that yet i guess my concern is is that what's going to happen here is mr bulls is just going to get a bunch of hearsay out the jury is going to hear say out and then maybe it doesn't have an effect on the listener and then hearsay is just out and then we've

just broken the rules of evidence so is there a way we can do this so that mr bulls doesn't get to spend the next time now why don't you just ask her if any text message between the two of them what, if anything, it had on the effect of the investigation? No, not great. Not great between them. But it seemed to get worse because things took an even more heated turn between the attorneys. This one is you can see these transcripts on the prep card. Question.

I don't know what is what you mean. It's what you made on the person. Is this what I did? It's what you email me. Okay. It's part of it. Can you think of it? Yes.

Have you reviewed every word? Because you should if you haven't. I've reviewed every word. I've listened to it. For the record, can we get the page numbers of the transcript that are being handed to the witness? I probably should have had those because you looked at them. I didn't take note of the age numbers. He has heard if he gave you her transcript, you can give her the page.

I believe it's page 28 through 32. You're not the one examined. Please let him answer. I will withdraw the request. Can I just read her statement? No, it's refreshing your memory. Okay. He wanted the quote, but it's refreshing your memory.

Okay. Okay. So you can remember from memory. What are you saying, Mr. Boltz? Are you speaking to me? Yeah, I'm saying. What would you like, sir? We're trying to get to the truth.

That's what I think. All right, you all, ask your question. I let you have coffee. let's focus here with our caffeine and ask if she remembers what was said to her. All right. Is that fine? Yes. All right. You know what? We're going to take a break.

We can spare you a little. All right. Please don't talk among yourselves or anyone else about the evidence we see if you're in court. Yeah, no love loss between those two, that's for sure. Well, Judge Mary Marlowe Sommer put an end to all of this. took a break, had everyone cool off, which seemed to be a needed thing. Now, that was somewhat overt, right? You can feel it between these attorneys. What I'm about to highlight now is something a bit more understated, but we kind of picked up some vibes during the testimony of Gabrielle Pickle.

This is the line producer on Rust. And one of the things she testified to was whether Gutierrez-Reed was getting the help that she needed to run a safe set. So, let me stop you. So when she asked you for additional armorer days, you gave them to her. Yes. Did you actually double the number of armorer days that she was originally scheduled for? Yes.

So I think you just testified that she had 10 armorer days total, is that right? That is to my, the best of my recollection, yes. At any point in time, did you... Did you express concerns to Ms. Gutierrez that she was leaving firearms unattended? I did in an email and then in person. Okay. Another important witness, right? Now, this is more visual than anything, but the looks from Gutierrez-Reed towards Pickle as she was testifying, it was something. side eye shaking her head doesn't appear from a viewer perspective to be much law of loss between

these two either but i will tell you the exchange when pickle left the stand the exchange between the two of them in my eyes chilly to say the least this russ case just shows that tragic unfortunate events can happen when you least expect that's the truth that includes when you get injured. It is so important to know what your rights are if you're ever seriously hurt and whether your injury could be worth millions of dollars. But that is where Morgan and Morgan, a crowd sponsor of Sidebar and the largest injury law firm in the whole country comes in. They are going to fight for the compensation you deserve. You know why they're so big? Because they win a lot. They recently won verdicts of $6.8 million in New York, $12 million in Florida and $26 million in

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in the comments. As we talk about some more explosive moments so far in the criminal trial of Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, I would say the videos of Gutierrez-Reed were pretty major, okay? Because here's an example. Here is the body cam of an officer capturing Gutierrez-Reed's reaction right after the shooting, where she is crying. Oh, my God. Just relax. Okay? I'm just trying to.

There's a whole lot of people here sometimes to secure everybody. You don't have to do anything, okay? Why would you ask for a medical unit to come check on Hannah? The way she was pretty much hyperventilating, and I didn't want her to pass out, and then we have a bigger problem. Now, those immediate reactions that we cover so many times on 911 phone calls, body cam footage, they are very, very telling. Now, on one hand, you could say, who could blame her, right?

A shooting just happened. Anyone would be freaking out. The other way of looking at it is is that she realized she messed up, and this is her fault. And that's why she's panicking. That's why she allegedly tried to get rid of the cocaine after the shooting, dispose of evidence that would show that she was sloppy and negligent. and that caused the shooting.

But that kind of acknowledgement that she knew she messed up, that was amplified by other explosive video from that day. I just kind of wish that many of my coworkers could stop seeing me because I already feel super bad. Okay, cool.

So, I don't want to go back. Okay. I just wanted to f*** out of here and never show my face in this industry ever again. Oh, I wouldn't say that. Oh, I wouldn't. I'm like the only thing. female armor in the game and I just

I just got my whole entire career. Have you studied armory or did you go to classes or how did you get into it? My dad's the best one of the best armor is in the entire world and then trained me and I'm a failure. Again, not the best evidence for Hannah Gutierrez-Reed but at the same time, her saying she's a failure

or saying it's her fault may not mean she's actually at fault and more details of that set and the investigation came to light. Okay. Now, I would say another major explosive moment came when a firearm safety expert took the stand, Brian Carpenter. And what he did was he basically went through videos that were taken from the Rust set. And he talked about all of the safety problems that were occurring that he was watching in these videos, such as actors pointing weapons in the wrong direction.

And this includes issues with Alec Baldwin himself because here is Alec Baldwin firing a gun with blanks and then listen to what the actor says. One more, one more, one more. I forgot to re-close. Right away, right away, let's reload. Here we go. So, Helena, hi. Here we go, come on.

Okay, I could have two guns and both were reloading. How many movie sets do you think you've worked on in your career? A hundred. That conduct that we're seeing on the part of Mr. Baldwin, is that typical conduct from an actor on a movie set? No. Why not? Well, number one, he's basically instructing the armor how to do their job at that point, telling him that we should have had the gun second reload, you know, hurry up,

give it to me fast fast fast this is that moment this is that moment I spoke about earlier this is that moment that you need to stop and say no I'm not going to hurry up I'm going to slow down and we don't need to be you know passing off weapons this fast or loading guns this fast this is creating an unsafe and nerve nerve wracking situation to lack to describe it in more layman's terms always own any kind of live training exercise military training or whatnot you don't want to put people in a nervous position that creates. Now, you can stress a level of stress that's necessary in realism training for military

and law enforcement. This is not that. This should be separate and apart from that. And even when that's being done under those circumstances, it's done in a control manner. But rushing with firearms and telling someone to rush for firearms is not normal nor accepted. You then see what appears to be Hannah Gutierrez-Reed rushing to reload the gun with round, from her fanny pack. Carpenter would say he would prefer to use rounds taken from a secured

box that were pre-checked, kind of another ding or dig against the defendant. Now, a few things here. This is important for the prosecution because it helps to show this wasn't a safe environment, and it is the armor's responsibility to keep a safe environment on set. Now, even though what we just played is in video of the actual shooting itself, this background information, these videos, they're important to provide context, context about how a live round was fired on this set, look at what was happening. And prosecutors say Gutierrez-Reed failed to act with due caution or circumspection. Remember, that's part of the involuntary manslaughter charge.

Now, on the other hand, these videos also establish, or helped to establish that Baldwin allegedly was rushing the production there, which I have to say will probably be used against him at his own involuntary manslaughter trial. But the issue for this trial on Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is that this could have been difficult for Gutierrez-Reed to do her job, as the defense has suggested. You have a young, 24-year-old female armor, a big Hollywood actor. It's intimidating. It's tough.

But as Carpenter pointed out, that was her job as the armor to stop and slow things down. And she didn't. She is rushing. But there is more. When you drop your arm, that means he's 10 feet away. I can't see how close it. I want to be almost up by the time to get it. No, I'm going to go into this.

Yeah. Well, let me show you something. Hold on. Step back to your original mark. So 1,000, 2, 1000, 1,000, 3, I'm getting up. Then when he drops his arm, Helena, he drops his arm. That means Brady's close. I'm going to start to really get up. Okay. Do you see anything concerning here? He's doing what we saw previously in one of the other videos with the stunt performer. He's using the weapon as a pointing stick. It's his finger. When Mr. Baldwin behaves this way and is using the revolver as a pointer, what is the responsibility on the?

the part of Ms. Gutierrez. To intercede and correct any unsafe behavior, now obviously, again, we're talking about the nuances of doing it. I would start off pulling him aside or talking to him individually and say, you know, if we could, let's be careful with that muzzle. Here we go, let's try it. All right here, like in the path of the gun. Could you please move?

Did you hear that? tell us what's going on there. It sounded like Ms. Gutierrez attempting to correct the fact that she knew that Mr. Baldwin was pointing that weapon in an unsafe manner and she was attempting to move the crew out of the path of where he was pointing it and knowing that it was loaded with blanks. Is there a problem with attempting to move the crew? That's one of the two things that should be occurring.

You identify the problem that created the fact that the crew was in an unsafe position and then you clear out the crew and she was attempting to I would assume I'm not correct Mr. Baldwin but try to make the crew in a more safe position So again highlighting that perhaps

the defendant was afraid to stand up to Baldwin the issue of course is someone died someone died as a result of failures in this production and whatever fear or apprehension she may have had the argument is it was her duty

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prosecution has suggested. The prosecution argues that the live rounds on the set don't look like the live rounds from Kenny's company. Now, Kenny testified that he started to see the blame was being shifted to him, that the live rounds came from him. That is something that he denied. So defense attorney Jason Bowles, who we've talked a lot about, he questions Kenny. And he questions him about comments that Kenny allegedly made seemingly placing the blame on his client, Gutierrez-Reed. Now, by the way, the men that you're about to hear about that Bulls and Kenny are a Joe Swanson. This is the manufacturer of the dummy rounds. And fail is Gutierrez Reed's father, who is a renowned armor himself.

And as you're talking to Joe Swanson and you ask him if they were in the box or the green ammo can, do you recall he's on the phone with you and you're asking if they were in the green ammo can? You said, as you're on the phone, I'm like, Oh, God. Well, I mean, still trying. Damn. Do you recall saying that? Vaguely, yes. You also recall saying, you said it twice. He said, well, she still didn't do her effing job.

Do you recall saying that? That sounds like me. Why did you say that? I think I was worried that it was going to be some of these rounds that that Thale had given to Troy Teske and had been using, you know, to shoot, right, shooting live rounds, that somehow they migrated in some of Thales' leather or, you know, through Hannah in some way, and that, again, we were going to be here saying Joe Swanton live ammunition when he's primarily

99.9% of the time he just provides movies and television shows with blanks and dummy rounds. So you just gave a long explanation and you just kind of blamed, try to blame Hannah in that, didn't you just know? How did I do that?

You gave the implication that you were worried that this was going to be some that Bill had and Troy was shoot. And again, that's to try to link it to Hannah. Isn't it? No. No, just telling you my thought process at that point trying to figure out where did this, where did the rust live ammunition come from? And was it going to, you know, point back to Joe Swanson? Okay. And do you recall on July 11th, 2023, you interviewed with myself and Ms. Morrissey? You call that, sir? Yeah, the Zoom meeting. Yes, I recall that. And do you recall, when I ask you the same question, why did you say you said i don't know and that was the extent of your answer you recall that

yes so back in july 11th 2023 your memory would you agree with me would be fresher to that time frame when you said it than it would be now well not if if i had reviewed things or or something else jogged my memory of that event so bowl suggesting that kenny isn't being honest about his answers, that his goal was just to put the blame on his client, and the back and forth continues about whether Kenny wanted Gutierrez-Reed fired. You were asked on direct if after this October 16th accident on discharge, you had had an argument with Ms. Gutierrez-Reed. Do you recall that?

By text message, yes. Okay. And you recall after that that you wanted to fire Ms. Gutierrez-Reed? It wasn't that I wanted her fired because it wouldn't be for me to fire her. She can tell me to go to hell all day long, and it wouldn't make a difference to the rust production. So if rust production is happy and they were, you know, Sarah Zachary said she's a great armor that I've seen the, she, the defense. defendant Hannah. She sent me the text message that the director had sent her after a big shootout on blank ammo shootout. Big, big shootout. Mr. Kinney, my question was pretty simple.

Okay. Let me ask it again. Okay. You just testified that you did not want to get, that you did not want to fire Hannah? Is that your testimony? It's not that I wanted her fired. She was doing a horrible job at props. That was an issue. Okay, you answered my question, and I just want to know. I had mixed feelings about it. Do you recall in your interview on November 1st stating she was just being an idiot?

I wanted Sarah to get rid of her. Collectively, yes. I mean, you know, even now, frustrated with her. but at the same time, you know, understand, well, you know, what she's up against. So it's a mixed bag of emotions and, and ultimately was not my call. My question was, was, did you remember stating that? Oh, yeah. Okay, that's what I asked.

Okay, so was he answering the questions? Was he being pagey? Was he being honest? Something for the jury to think about. As we finish up, I want to talk about another explosive, arguably bombshell, unpredictable moment that happened in this trial. And that is when we had Dave Halls testified. Now, he was the assistant director

who actually played no contest to negligently handling the firearm on the day of the shooting. He completed six months of parole. He admitted that on the stand. And he was there when Helena was shot. And Ms. Guderis appeared on my left-hand side with the revolver.

And she said, let's do the gun check. she opened up the latch to show the drum of the revolver she rotated the cylinder it was it was empty checked the barrel it was what was referred to as a cold gun and um miss gudier just took a few steps and gave the gun to mr wallow and that was surprising because it was always our understanding that Gutierrez-Reed had handed the weapon to Halls, who then handed it to Baldwin. Now, Baldwin originally said that Gutierrez-Reed had handed him the gun, but then he switched it and said it was Halls who handed him the gun. As for Gutierrez-Reed, she said that she handed the gun to halls and then walked out of

the church where the shooting had happened. And that was something that defense attorney Bowles pressed halls on. Isn't it true that you handed that firearm to Mr. Baldwin? It's not true. Do you know that your account conflicts with Mr. Baldwin? I am aware of that. And do you know that it conflicts with Ms. Gutier's Reef? I am aware of that, but I, however, in Mr. Baldwin's initial statement with Detective Hancock,

hours, a few hours after the incident on October 21st, when asked the question, who handed him the gun, he said Hannah did like she always did. And after that, he changed and said you had handed it to him, right? Yeah, he has. Okay. Right after this happened, the shooting happened. Do you remember you were standing outside with Mr. Baldwin talking with them, kind of near a truck? Yes. I do. Do you recall what you all were talking about? Were you talking about the events and kind of how this could have happened? Yeah. Yes. So you were kind of discussing and kind of trying to remember with each other what had occurred.

Is that fair? Most of the discussion was what could have, what was it that entered their bodies? So that's an interesting point. The jury is going to have to decide if Halls is telling the truth. Look, that is a major moment right there. Much worse for Gutierrez-Reed if she was the one who handed it over. Not only does it put more blame on her for what happened, but it would suggest that, that she and Baldwin weren't telling the truth about what happened,

or at the very least, weren't accurate in what they remembered. All right, everybody, that is all we have for you here on Sidebar. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. all episodes of this long crime series. Add free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.