Law&Crime Sidebar - ‘Traumatizing’: Jeffrey Epstein Survivor Speaks Out Over 'Horrifying' Abuse in Exclusive Interview

Episode Date: January 12, 2024

Elizabeth Stein claims she was assaulted, raped, and trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell when she was a teenager. She’s now suing Maxwell, as well as Epstein’s estate. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber speaks with Stein and her attorney, Jennifer Freeman, in an exclusive interview about the recent release of court documents related to Epstein and Maxwell’s heinous activities and how she plans to hold people accountable going forward.Polaris/National Human Trafficking Hotline: https://humantraffickinghotline.org/enHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. It takes a lot for someone to talk about the worst things that ever happened to them. In an exclusive interview, we sit down with Elizabeth Stein who has come forward as a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein, and she gives her take on what the release of all of these newly unsealed documents mean for Epstein accusers, the potential harm this can cause and what she is doing to turn this horrible event in her life into a positive for others. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime.

I'm Jesse Weber. So we've tackled each document dump in the Jeffrey Epstein saga this past two weeks or so. But there is an aspect to all of this that we haven't touched upon yet, and I will explain that. But first, Epstein is, of course, the deceased financier and sex offender, who died from an apparent suicide in his jail cell in 2019 while awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges. He had been accused of procuring minor females for the purposes of sexual assault. He had previously pled guilty in 2008 to soliciting a minor for prostitution out in Florida in a very controversial non-prosecution agreement that saw him avoid more severe charges at

the time. Now, as accomplice, Galane Maxwell was convicted of her own sex trafficking-related charges in 2021. She was sentenced to 20 years behind bars. And what has been happening is that all of these documents have been unsealed and publicly released in a litigation, a lawsuit between Maxwell and Epstein accuser Virginia Joufrey. This was a defamation case that was settled, but the media outlets have wanted to see what all of these documents were in the case. Depositions, photographs, court filings, who is named, who are their real names, who are their identities? While New York Judge Loretta Preska, who's been overseeing this, she ordered that all of the.

these materials, thousands of pages, could be unsealed. And the names unredacted, saying most of this information has already been released or is known, and there's no ongoing harm. Although, I believe that at least two Jane Does have tried to fight for their names not to be released, and they have, I believe, till the end of the month or so, for this to be resolved. And we have been breaking down all of these documents for you here on Sidebar, including the big names mentioned and what this means in the overall context. But there is something we have. haven't touched upon yet. We haven't had the opportunity to speak with an alleged survivor of Jeffrey Epstein about what the impact of this document release will have. And that is important

to address. Let me bring on right now, Elizabeth Stein, who has come forward as a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein, and she is also joined by her attorney, Jennifer Freeman. It's great to have you both here. Thank you so much for taking the time and your debut on Sidebar. Thank you both. Thanks for having us. Yes, thanks. Good to be with you. So, Liz, we actually talked before this and you informed me, and I didn't know this, and I don't know if a lot of our viewers and listeners know that at the time of this recording

today is actually Human Trafficking Awareness Day, and January is Human Trafficking Safety Month, which, again, is so poignant that we're having this conversation right now, and I'm so happy to have this conversation with both of you because we haven't had an opportunity to talk about the survivor side in this Epstein news cycle. So I wanted to start off, Liz, for the past two weeks, you know, we've been seeing a lot of this. And before we even get into the impact of these latest documents, can you just briefly explain to our listeners, to our viewers who aren't familiar, what your connection is to this,

what your connection is with Jeffrey Epstein and Galane Maxwell, and why you decided to come forward when you did? Certainly. So when I was a student at the Fashion Institute of Technology, as part of my schooling, I did an internship at a Fifth Avenue retailer, and it was there that I met Gillian Maxwell as a client. And she came into this store one day and was shopping with me, and she befriended me. And the first day that I met her, she introduced me to Jeffrey up steam and that's how I became involved with them yeah and and I don't even want to get into more of the details because you've talked about that extensively and you know it it's it echoes what

a lot of what we've heard so far what I'm really interested in knowing and what we haven't had an opportunity to talk about there has been so much focused in the past week and a half two weeks on you know the details of these documents and what they're what they matter in the overall legal scheme. But you spoke to me about something and I hadn't, you know, really appreciated it. And I don't know if our viewers or listeners have. What the impact of this document release has on someone like you, has on the other people have come forward. If you can explain that. Sure. I think that, you know, one of the pieces that we really haven't heard a lot about in the media is what the impact of this all is on survivors. I think that, you know, all of us, you know, all of us,

who have come forward and told our stories, it's taken a lot, you know, it takes a lot for someone to talk about the worst things that ever happened to them. And to some extent, I think that you are able to, I don't want to say control the public narrative because that's not what I mean, but I think that when you tell your story, you're telling your general story without all of the details. And I think that one of the things that we need to consider is that this document release is a release of all of the intimate details of these survivors' experiences. So while people might know that these women are survivors, they might not know the minutia of what their experience was. And I think that it's important to remember that this is retramatizing to survivors.

It's one thing to have the public know generally that you're a survivor of human trafficking. It's another thing to have them know the very gory details and the most intimate secrets of your life to just have that out there in the public is really difficult. And I think that, you know, the thing that has really been missing from this conversation is survivor voice. It's what is the impact on us. and for a lot of us, you know, this is a sex trafficking ring that went on for decades and all of the survivors are at various places in their recovery and to be bombarded by this constantly in the news and to feel the invalidation that nothing's really being done about it is consistently triggering to the victims.

And I was curious, and Liz, I'll ask you this, but I'll start actually with Jennifer, you know, the legal point of view in terms of having Judge Loretta Presco released these documents, which, you know, Liz explained these were, this was a litigation between two people, a private deposition, they might not have known that these details were going to be released. When you saw this as somebody who represents a survivor, did you agree, you know, Jennifer, with Judge Prescott releasing all these documents for everyone to see? I think it's really a big issue because when you, especially because there was a confidentiality

order in place, in this case, like, there. There are in many cases. However, I think they had to know that there was a possibility of this. And if you read the documents carefully, like Ms. Dufre's deposition, you'll see that her lawyer was very concerned that even if there is a confidentiality order, at some point, this might get out. And Liz, what's your take on it? I think that it's a really difficult situation, right?

I think that there is the public that wants to know what happened, and then there are the private individuals that are involved. So I think that Judge Prescott really had a difficult decision to me. I think that a lot of times when people are looking at these things are not necessarily always looking at things through a trauma-informed lens. And I don't know if that came into consideration when she decided to unseal all of these documents. I think that it's difficult, like I've already said, it's difficult to release all of these intimate details that, you know, someone may have had to walk through in a deposition that

they thought that was going to stay within the confines of the deposition and the litigation that they were involved in. So, you know, I can see why Judge Prescott did this, but I also don't know if it's necessary for the public to know all of these intimate details about the survivors to know what the story is and to know that the people that were potentially involved in the story. Yeah, I was wondering, Liz, like, when this comes out, it's very hard to avoid it. I mean, the media, it's on every national media story. We've been covering it.

You know, there's articles about it. Did you stay away from reading the details? Did you learn something new about it? Or you said, look, this is already stuff that's been out here. You know, I didn't learn anything. I didn't, you know, discover anything that I didn't already know. I think that what would shock us all the most is if we found out anything that shocked us, right? I think that we're hearing a lot of names that we've heard before.

We may be hearing a name or two that we hadn't heard or maybe someone that had been suspected of having some association with Epstein. And maybe that was confirmed in the release of these documents. I can say for myself, you know, ever since the Epstein story broke in 2019, it has felt, you know, like a consistent bombarding by the media every time I turn on the news or pick up a paper or go to read anything. And I think that, you know, anyone who was, would be in my situation would have to limit their, you know, media consumption just to kind of save their sanity because it's really easy to get drawn into all of this, and it can feel overwhelming to just kind of be hearing about, you know, your life experience on the news all the time. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I don't think a lot of

people understand that. I mean, this is like, it's like one thing to just explain what happened, but to really read the details and hear what happened, it's horrifying. And, you know, I think a lot of people are now assessing, you know, the aftermath of all this. And I wanted to pose this question to both you, Liz, and Jennifer, but like, you know, moving forward, from this, you know, was there anything in there, you know, that you looked at it and you said, wow, that's a, you know, that's a name that I didn't think of it. That's, that's, it happened the same way to me because a lot of people are saying, well, what, what about accountability? Maybe the release of this information, someone else will come forward and say, corroborate one

of the accounts in here that they didn't know about before. Was there anything in here that you said, you know, now I can take action. Now I see something that, you know, that I didn't know before. One of these names. Is there anything like that? For me, there wasn't. Yeah. And I think that what we're really focusing on is what the names are, what the names are, whose name was released in this document release. And what we're not focusing on is that sex trafficking is a crime.

These are crimes that need to be pursued. And these are people that, you know, need to be questioned as to whether or not they have any knowledge of these crimes, and involvement in these crimes, and that is a point that's really being lost in the media. We're talking about the celebrities and the politicians and the public people that are being named, but what are we doing about these names? I think that it's also important to stress that just because someone has been named in these documents doesn't mean that they've necessarily been involved in any wrongdoing, but I feel like they definitely deserve to be questioned to find that out. Yeah, and Jennifer, I'll throw that to you

too. I mean, a lot of people want to know what's the legal impact of all this moving forward? Unfortunately, in terms of criminal prosecution, there's limited remedies available. What can you really do, given that many times the statute of limitations have run on these kinds of claims, which is one reason why we turn to civil remedies. And that's something I've been working on as the chair of something called Child U.S. Advocacy, which is trying to change, reform these civil statute of limitations so that people do have some measure of remedy. Because there is very little, generally, you can do, given the age of these claims, you know, they're so long ago. And talking about accountability, obviously these documents are literally.

with so much information about Galane Maxwell. I know you're limited in what you can say, but I know that you filed a lawsuit only a couple of months ago against Galane Maxwell under the New York Adult Survivors Act gave people a one-year window to file a lawsuit for sexual assault claims that would otherwise have been time-barred. So I know you can't talk about the specifics of the suit,

but what can you tell us about it? I think that the Adult Survivors Act is a really important piece of legislation. I think that it's important for people to understand that trauma disclosure is not a linear process. You know, it can take a victim years, even decades, to kind of put together what their experience was and to be able to speak about it. And so I think that, you know, in our legal system, we bar people from being able to pursue litigation through statutes of limitations that are really, you know, arbitrary, I guess, in my mind. The crime was committed. So, you know, if you didn't report it in five years or 10 years or whatever the statute of limitations is for your particular case,

does that mean that it didn't happen? Does that mean that you don't deserve to be made whole? I don't think so. So I think that, you know, New York is one of the states that has really led the way, both with the Child Victims Act and the Adult Survivors Act, in giving survivors a look back. period. I think it's unfortunate that the look-back period was only open for a year. I think that we need to change legislation so that statutes of limitation are more akin to, you know, these kinds of disclosures, but I think that it's a step in the right direction. This case is emblematic of what can happen when you have the reform of the statute of limitations because she does have a remedy. And we are continuing to work on statute of limitations.

in New York and other states to try to make sure that there is a remedy available because otherwise there's no accountability. Otherwise, you know, what often I see so many times, unfortunately, is a lot of depression and anger because there's no way to move forward. You had also told me, and it's my understanding, that you might be going after the FBI. Am I understanding that correctly? You are understanding that correctly. We have filed what's called a submitted, what's called a notice of claim, which is a statutory prerequisite to bringing a claim against a federal agency like the FBI. And we will be filing a lawsuit in the near future against the FBI to find out why when Maria Farmer, one of the victims, one of our clients, when she reported Epstein and Maxwell and others in 1996,

the FBI did nothing. And then why, in 2006, when she reported again, they did nothing? And why was another of our clients trafficked at the very time that he was supposedly, Epstein was supposedly being investigated in Florida, yet she was trafficked in New York and at his little island? How could this happen under the FBI's nose? Do you have a theory? We have lots of theories, but we really would love to be able to get the

information to understand what really happened here. Did they just not care about these young girls? Was there some kind of, this is just an allegation, confidential relationship with Epstein, so the government knew what he was doing and allowed it because he was serving some function for the government? We just don't know. And it's really hard to know without a litigation, without having the facts getting to the bottom of what really happened. And for anybody who needed a crash course in litigation, clearly seeing this litigation between Maxwell and Joufrey, you see how much information can actually come up. Liz, I want to talk to you in a minute about the work that you're doing because I think it's incredible and I want people to know about it. Before we do, as we're talking

about accountability and the impact of these documents, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you sharing what the traumatic experience of these documents being released can be for people. In terms of what you're hoping for, you hope that the people who are mentioned, that they face tough questions, if not legal repercussions, that they face tough questions by people in the media or people who are associated with them. Do you hope that that starts a different conversation from the release of these documents? Absolutely. You know, I think that it's important when we're hearing these names.

It's what is the implication going to be on these people? Whether it's legal, whether it's professional, are we going to continue to support these people? Are we going to allow this to continue to happen? And I think that, you know, we are looking at a case where there are hundreds of victims. This is a crime that has hundreds and hundreds of victims. Yet there's only one person that's been held accountable and that one person is a woman. Now, please don't get me wrong, Gileane Maxwell absolutely deserved to be held accountable. But the sex trafficking ring had to have operated with other people.

Where is the accountability for the other people? Where is the accountability for the men that we were trafficked to? Where is the accountability to the government who knew that this was happening for decades? Where is the accountability? Why has this just been a sensational media story and there's been no accountability? This is a crime. Human trafficking is a crime and we need to find out. what happened and how these people are involved?

And are there any efforts being made on your behalf to get those answers from these people? One thing that we're doing is filing and pursuing the FBI, the claims against the FBI. That's fair. And Liz is an important part of that as well. So, Liz, I wanted to talk to you now about really something incredible because what happened to you is horrific. And it could cripple someone's life. And I've covered these kinds of cases before. You have actually managed to take something so horrible and turn it into a positive where you're helping people.

Can you explain what you do? Sure. Well, I think it's important to say that this does cripple your life. And this did really impede my life for quite a long time. Right now, I am working in anti-trafficking work. I'm working for a legal nonprofit. it. And I really feel very strongly about doing this work because nobody understood what happened to me. You know, for decades and decades, people were looking at the outer symptoms of trauma

that I was exhibiting, the depression, the anxiety, the post-traumatic stress disorder, the ways that trauma ripples through women's lives might not look like what you would think it looked in a textbook and I think that part of the work that I'm doing is trying to educate the public trying to make people understand how to be more trauma-informed when they're looking at things like this and to understand what the implications of someone being trafficked are and I think that for me it was a really really long road but I knew that I was stronger than what happened to me. And it's really important for me to kind of help others

who are on the same journey that I was on for a long time and to effectuate policy change in any way that I'm able to. Yeah. Liz is a goodful role model for others. And one of the things I'm so proud of Liz about is stepping forward and showing that you can step forward. You can move forward.

you can admit what happened to you, which is something that we find so difficult. So many people have struggled with that. Yeah. And again, it's remarkable because you're able to help other people, and even like just talking right now about what they're going through and having people understand, you know, that this document release. And you said it so well before because I always had to explain it. This is not the Epstein list.

This is not like, you know, oh, we're going to get an understanding of everybody that committed this crime. It was part of this sex trafficking. It's been sensationalized. So bringing it back down to reality, not only from those documents, but also bring it down to reality for how this is affecting people is so important for, I think, everyone to know. And I appreciate you saying that. You know, I go back to this, and I think about the list and I think about all the documents. There are right now, I believe, and Jennifer, you can correct me, there are, I believe two people who are asking the judge not to be identified. And it's not entirely clear who these people are.

That is the next step to sort of getting a little bit more information. What do you think about that? They're trying to, by the way, just to be clear, these are Janos who are trying to make sure their identities are not revealed because the judge did allow the identities of so many people to be revealed in these documents. I understand one of them has alleged that she is in danger, in physical danger of violence if her name is released.

So I certainly understand those concerns. And is this going to be another, I mean, frankly, so far it has been a bit of, for someone who's worked in the field, perhaps like you, who kind of knew what was going on, it has been a little bit of a much ado about nothing, in that there weren't that many revelations through these documents. So would there be more with these two? just don't know. But I do, I do appreciate Judge Preska's care and to make sure that, you know, at least this young woman is protected. And Liz, you know, going again to it, it seems that as far as

I can tell, you know, the people who are identified, there wasn't a lot of objection on their part for all this coming out. And when it's been released, they've gone to a lot of denials. They said, you know, they've gone to older denials, older statements that they've made. And, you know, my biggest concern is that this gets, no, it doesn't, it's not talked about, you know, it gets swept on the wrong, you know, it was a sensationalized for two weeks, but like, you know, I think the fact that you didn't see a lot of these people identified making a big fuss of it. Did that tell you anything? Did that make you feel a certain way that you're not seeing some of these people really addressing

as much as they could what was said in these documents? Certainly. Like I said before, just because someone was named in these documents doesn't mean that they are guilty of any wrongdoing. However, because they were named in these documents, because of their association with Epstein, they need to be questioned and asked why. And I think that we're seeing a lot of people kind of run and scurry to kind of protect themselves and insulate themselves from the stigma that Epstein, you know, provides people. Yeah, it's a difficult, really difficult situation, and I think it became really political, right? I feel like both sides kind of used as a political weapon, and I was disturbed by that. What did you think about that, Liz?

It's very disturbing because I think that this is not a political subject, right? This is a sex trafficking ring, and there were politicians on both sides of the aisle that were associated with Epstein. And I think that the fact that people are using this, you know, kind of to do some legal posturing in an election year is really unfortunate because it has nothing to do with this election. And I think that, again, we need to focus on what the substances of these documents, why they were released, and focus on the crime. And Jennifer, just to pose up the conversation, you had talked to me, and I don't know if a lot of people, understand the finances of this, but there was money that has gone to the victims, to the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Galane Maxwell. Can you just briefly explain what that means for these people and what happened? Yeah, there have been various funds that have been

established, which victims can apply for. One fund was out of Epstein's estate, Epstein's Victim Compensation Fund, two other funds were established recently as a result of litigation against J.P. Morgan Bank and also against Deutsche Bank. So there have been opportunities for some paying attention to that. There's also another mental health fund that's coming up from the Virgin Islands, which was part of their resolution of their litigation. So we're really pleased about that. But one thing, thing that I think that, you know, putting the political side aside, one thing that this case kind of a little bit gets lost is this is really sex trafficking for the elite, as opposed to sexual sex trafficking that we think about. I mean, today there was just a big story about the Hillsborough County in Florida, which is where I am, Operation Renewed Hope, arresting 123 people. And, you know, these are happening in motels and hotels versus, on private plains and private islands.

And those got held accountable. Where is the accountability for these Johns? That's a good point. That's a good point. And, you know, look, it's a difficult situation because, and I always had to say this, with the release of these documents, these were depositions, these were statements of people. They were just in the middle of the litigation.

It's very different than a prosecution set of, you know, set of evidence trying to prove crimes were committed. everything that was said has to be looked at in context and has to be seen as an allegation and has to be see how it's backed up. So, you know, it's important for people to understand how these documents matter and what the impact of it is. Elizabeth Stein, Jennifer Freeman, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this conversation, how much I appreciated you coming on.

And it's kind of a great bow to this because we covered every aspect of this Epstein document dump and all of these different revelations, but to go back to the people. who were affected to go back to understand what the impact is to the people that we're talking about in these documents and who suffered as a result of the of epstein and maxwell i don't think it could have been more appropriate so uh elizabeth steinifer freeman thank you both and i wish you both the best of the block thank you so much all right everybody that's all we have for you right now here on sidebar thank you so much for joining us please subscribe on apple podcast spotify youtube wherever you get your podcast i'm jessey weber

I'll speak you next time. You can binge all episodes of this long crime series ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.