Law&Crime Sidebar - ‘Very Shocking’: Bryan Kohberger’s Lawyer Claims Accused Killer Has No Link to Idaho Student Murders

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Bryan Kohberger’s defense attorneys claim the accused killer has “no connection” to the four University of Idaho students who were stabbed to death in their off-campus home in November. Kohberger’s attorneys are focusing on the “total lack of DNA evidence” found in the suspect’s apartment, home, office, and vehicle. The Law&Crime Network’s Angenette Levy breaks down the latest Idaho student murders developments with criminal defense attorney James Bogen.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Save 10% on your entire POM Pepper Spray order by using code LAWCRIME10 at http://bit.ly/3IGNFxvLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokePodcasting - Sam GoldbergWriting & Video Editing - Michael DeiningerGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa Bein & Kiera BronsonSUBSCRIBE TO OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Court JunkieObjectionsThey Walk Among AmericaDevil In The DormThe Disturbing TruthSpeaking FreelyLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. views shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller that

will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Brian Coburger's defense attorneys release new information about DNA testing from his car, home and office. The results they believe could help them as a court fight bruise over the genetic genealogy that led police to Coburger. I've covered a lot of crime stories over the years, many of them here at law and crime, and it always gets me thinking about how important it is to stay safe. This is Palm Pepper Spray, and it can help you do just that.

It's a small but mighty self-defense tool. Palm pepper spray shoots up to 12 feet using the strongest legal form of pepper spray available. It's safe and easy. You just point and spray. And if you want to try it, you can get 10% off. Just log on to palmpepper spray.com, put in the promo code Law Crime 10, and remember, if you or anyone else is ever in danger, always call 911. Brian Coburger's trial is set for October. And in newly filed court documents, his lawyers say none of the victim's DNA was found in Coburgers' apartment, home, office, or car.

The revelation came in court documents filed by Coburger's lawyer. employers, objecting to the prosecution's request for a protective order on the investigative genetic genealogy the FBI used to ID Coburger as a suspect. Prosecutors claim Coburger, dressed in all black, went into the house on King Road after 4 a.m. on November 13th of last year, and in less than 20 minutes, killed all four students by stabbing. Then they say he got into his white Hyundai Allantra and took off, driving a longer route back to his apartment in Pullman, Washington. The arrest of Coburger happened six weeks after the murders, so that's plenty of time to clean up. And a source had told me some time ago

that Coburger's car appeared to be bleached. But getting rid of blood can be incredibly difficult. Blood, of course, contains DNA. Coburger's defense team also claims prosecutors are hiding crucial parts of the investigation from them that they want to see, including the genetic genealogy the FBI used to build family trees that led them to the Coburger family. Investigators say Coburger's DNA was left on the snap of the Kbar knife sheaf left next to Maddie Mogan's body. When the test result came back to a single source of male DNA and it didn't result in a hit in a national database of known felons called CODIS, the FBI turned to genetic genealogy to try to find a suspect. The feds built the family trees from there and that led

them to Coburger's father and later him. Prosecutors do not want to turn that information over to the defense and have asked the judge for a protective order. In fact, prosecutors cite another case when they claim they shouldn't have to turn over that information, but the defense is having none of it. Coburger's attorneys say they should get to see the materials that led to their client being labeled a suspect. Coberger's lawyers also say that two other DNA profiles from the King Road home were run through CODIS, along with a male DNA profile found on a glove outside of the home. Coburger has, of course, pleaded not guilty to one count of burglary and four counts of first-degree murder in the murders of all four students. His trial is set for October.

Joining me to discuss the very latest and all of this new information about the case against Brian Coburger is James Bogan. He's a criminal defense attorney in Ohio. James, welcome to Sidebar. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Always nice to be here, Anjanet. Just off the top of this, there's so much new information that we've learned from these documents that were filed late Friday. The fact that Brian Coburger is facing four charges of first-degree murder and a burglary count for the homicides and for this awful thing that happened last November.

And his defense team is saying the information they've been given shows no connection between Brian. Coburger and the victims. As a defense attorney, your thoughts on their claim. Well, they're going to have to back them up at trial. If they're claiming there's no connection, there've been cell tower pings, which are not conclusive in themselves, then yeah, his touch DNA was found on the knife sheath. That can be addressed too by the fact that touch DNA can be transferred by more than just the perpetrator touching the item in question. For example, if I shake hands with you and then go kill somebody, your DNA will be on the murder weapon.

But you also have alleged messages on Instagram and some of the months leading up to this incident from Brian Colberger to one of the victims. Now, obviously, that's stuff that if the prosecution's alleging the stuff, they're going to have to back that up. So, yeah, there's a pretty interesting mix of evidence and arguments. here. And I want to be clear about this whole thing about the Instagram messages. That was reported by one news outlet and we haven't been able to verify that.

We don't even know if that's true. So that was one news outlet that reported that information, citing an anonymous source. There's been a lot of anonymous source information in this case, so we have to be really careful about that. But what I find interesting about is that. Yeah. What I find interesting about it is they're saying there's no connection. Then we move on to the DNA part of this.

The DNA part is them saying that what I find interesting, they're saying there's no DNA of the victims. And this is a crime that would have been incredibly bloody. We have four college students stabbed to death in a home. One of them, we know, Zana Kurnodal, according to her father, fought back. So there was some type of altercation there with a knife. And yet the defense team is saying in this filing that there wasn't any of the victims' DNA in this case found in Brian Koberger's home, his office, his apartment, or his vehicle that the state says he was driving that night of the homicides. So would you expect after a crime that is so bloody it had to have been that there would be no evidence of their victim's DNA in this vehicle? that's actually very shocking if you're on the prosecution side of this yeah that certainly

helps the defense now if there happens to be some evidence that he did some complete deep cleaning that's one thing that could possibly mitigate that for the prosecution but on its face yeah definitely doesn't help the prosecution if there's really is no DNA from the victims in either Mr. Colberger's car or at his home. And we did, as I mentioned earlier, up at the top of this, we had been given information I had back in January that he may have bleached this car. That hasn't come up in any court filings yet, but that is something I was told from somebody I consider reliable. Another thing that I find interesting about all of this is the fact that the defense, they've received 51 terabytes of information from the prosecution. That includes video evidence,

reports. They obviously have some DNA evidence, some DNA testing results back from the crime lab. They've been given that information, but they're saying the state is still trying to hide its case from them. And they're talking about the genetic genealogy that was used to identify a suspect in this case from that touch DNA that was found on the knife sheath laying next to Maddie Mogan's body. They cited a case, the green case, where they said, oh, look at this other case. In that case, the prosecution wasn't required to turn over the genetic genealogy information to the defense. So we shouldn't have to do it either. What is your take on that? Because I find that confounding that you would not have to as the prosecution, yet you wouldn't be required to turn over evidence that led you to a suspect. And you're citing all this information, but you wouldn't turn it over to the defense so they could defend their client. I think that's the fox guarding the henhouse expecting you to, expecting the judge to trust him. When the fox guarding the henhouse says, trust me, you don't have to check on the hens.

That definitely is what I'm thinking we have here by the state. Now, the defense cites a case of their own where they use the methodology from a facial recognition software, where another court found that that had to be disclosed and saying it shouldn't be disclosed to the defense to protect all those innocent people in the database and so on, that is completely going over the top. If they really feel the need to have those people protected, it can easily be done with a protective order

where only counsel is allowed to view it. I'm wondering, too, why wouldn't you just say only counsel can view this information but we're going to turn it over why why do you think that the prosecution is so loath to turn this over james because i would think that this would be pretty discoverable this would be kind of like exhibit a of discovery that should be turned over this is how you found our guy this is how you determined or figured out or tried to find out that my client was the suspect. So why would they not want that information turned over? I understand they're saying, oh, we want to protect the identity of all these other relatives,

but doesn't that seem like something that should be turned over? It does. And again, that's where I use my fox guarding the henhouse analogy. They're basically saying, trust the fox who's guarding the henhouse to say he's not going after the hens without checking on the hens yourself. And even just real basic, remember when we did math class when we were going up in school. It was always, show your work. You don't just give an answer. And that's another analogy I'll use here. How did they get to that conclusion? The state definitely needs to turn that over so the defense can adequately investigate that. Given that, this is a death penalty case. If the judge doesn't let the defense look at that stuff,

he's asking for reversal on appeal. There were two other interesting items included in the defenses kind of response to the state's motion for a protective order in which they said there were two other male DNA profiles that the prosecution, the police had run through CODIS, the DNA index system that tracks known felons. So it was two other male profiles found in the home. Then a third male DNA profile found on a glove outside the home. What is that telling you? If they ran these through CODIS, would those profiles be profiles they just couldn't identify from other people that had been in the house? Or are these DNA profiles that are on items of evidence that could be noteworthy? That depends. I mean, it depends on who these people are and how their locations can be verified.

I mean, quite frankly, at any crime scene, unless it was completely scrubbed down right before a crime happened, you're always going to have, multiple DNA sources multiple DNA found at any scene whether it's a car or a house and apparently this may have been a party house too with a lot of people going in and out so really the fact that there's multiple DNA here that doesn't really that's not really surprising to me because that's really the reality of it it's not like c s i where aha they found one hair by the suspect and there's nothing else at the scene no it's always a mixed bag at every scene. Yeah, and this house was a party house. I mean, we've seen the body camera footage. I mean, this is a house where kids were in and out all of the time, multiple kids,

whether it was women, men, what have you, a lot of people in and out. Plus, that glove that was found outside the crime scene, we've heard a lot of talk about that over the many months, people speculating that could have been the killer, leaving a glove behind, what have you. What I find interesting, though, is this house was a petri dish. It's literally a petri dish of DNA, and you find three profiles, one outside the house, two inside, that you decide to run through CODIS. So to me, I'm thinking those had to be profiles that they couldn't eliminate as belonging to other people who had been in the house and that they were thinking might be leading them to a suspect. Am I wrong? well again it's a mixed bag it could be if it could be anybody and again they're not they can't just

rely on a DNA hit they're going to have to look at who are these people where could they have been during the time of the murder they can't just say aha DNA and not look at anything else but yeah that just goes to my point that any crime scene is going to be a mixed bag of DNA and it doesn't really tell you when the DNA was left there it just tells you it was left there in some way, shape, or form. Another thing that the defense is arguing about, and we should mention Brian Koberger will be back in court on Tuesday afternoon in Moscow, Idaho. His defense team is saying, look, they filed three or four motions to compel now to

they want the judge to say to the prosecution, turn over what we're asking for. They're not giving us what we want. Also, they want all of these grand jury materials. The defense wants to kind of analyze the grand jury in this. case and see how the grand jurors were selected and whether or not the process was flawed, they want to get the indictment tossed out. And they're asking to stay the proceedings because of this. Brian Koberger has basically demanded a speedy trial, which is his right under the U.S. Constitution. But they're saying we have to stay the proceedings because we can't reach an agreement

over which grand jury materials we should be given. So what are your thoughts on that? The defense is not entitled to grand jury materials as a regular part of discovery. And really, this strikes me as a motion where they're more trying to make a record than anything else. Because in death penalty cases, you're going to file motions about everything, including the kitchen sink. And that's what I see it as. And again, grand jury materials, the only time they're admissible is, say, a witness who testified, the grand jury testifies. and before you the defense does cross-examination they can ask the judge to inspect the transcript of their grand jury testimony to look for differences and if there are differences then the defense is entitled to it to use it for cross-examination that's the only time i ever see grand jury stuff ever coming in i've had that happen a couple times but the grand jury is a closed proceeding and you're not entitled to grand jury testimony and other grand jury stuff as it's just as a matter of of normal discovery. So you don't think that judge, judge is going to say to the state, all right,

back up the truck and unload all your grand jury stuff. You think maybe he'll tailor something that lets the defense maybe have some items that they're entitled to? Well, the selection stuff, I've never heard of anyone asking for that. I can see why they are. Again, more to make a record, in my opinion. But maybe the judge might do that just to show, hey, it was a random, randomly picked group of voters or whoever else they make the grandeur list for prospective grand jurors and leave it at that. I don't see now if they sit there and went door to door and said, oh, you're pro death penalty. I'll get you, you, you, absence something like that, I don't see that motion going anywhere. Yeah, that's not how grand juries are selected or juries in general. So I don't see

that that's how they went and picked these jurors. You brought up the death penalty. We're still waiting to see whether or not the state files that notice and says, yes, we are pursuing the death penalty. Many people expect this to be a death penalty case because both sides have death qualified attorneys on the teams. So you would think that that was clue that they're saying, yeah, we're going to pursue the death penalty. But maybe not necessarily because they have about 30 more days or so, a little less than 30 more days to tell Brian Coburger and notify the court whether or not they are pursuing the death penalty in this case. Yeah, well, given how much news this case has gotten, I look at this from a political standpoint,

too. I don't see any prosecutor deciding not to seek the death penalty in this and not expecting political backlash. Well, James Bogan, we will keep a close eye on it and we appreciate you coming back on to talk with us about it and appreciate your time as always. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Anjanet. And that's it for this edition of Law and Crime's Sidebar podcast. You can download and listen to You Sidebar on Apple, Spotify, Google, and wherever else you get your podcast. And of course, you can always watch it on Law and Crimes YouTube channel. I'm Anjanet Levy, and we will see you next time.

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