Leap Academy with Ilana Golan - Betting $250M on Women’s Sports: How Rejection Became Kara Nortman’s Superpower | E130

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

At a 2015 World Cup match in Vancouver, Kara searched nine stores for her daughters’ jerseys and found none. That spark of “joyful irritation” became a movement to build teams, build community, and build an industry. In this episode, Kara joins Ilana to share how that moment ignited Angel City FC, how she, along with her partners, managed to create one of the most valuable women’s soccer teams in the world, and why she embraces rejection as a growth strategy. She breaks down the tension between patience and urgency, the power of finding joy in pursuing one’s passions, and how to choose partners who amplify your mission. Kara Nortman is the co-founder of Angel City FC and managing partner of Monarch Collective, a $250M investment platform driving the growth of women’s sports. A former investor at Upfront Ventures and operator at IAC, Kara brings decades of experience turning bold ideas into lasting movements. In this episode, Ilana and Kara will discuss: (00:00) Introduction (02:03) Realizing the Market Gap in Women’s Sports (04:16) Turning Inspiration into Action (06:44) Finding Joy Through Volunteering and Community (11:54) The Birth of Angel City FC (17:23) Turning Rejection into Fuel (30:48) Breaking into the World of Venture Capital (31:42) Game-Changing Mentorship and Early Career Lessons (33:47) Discovering a Passion for Tech at Battery Ventures (44:19) Building Angel City and Redefining the Playbook (50:04) Launching Monarch and Scaling the Movement Kara Nortman is an investor, founder, and sports operator focused on advancing the women’s sports economy. As a co-founder of the professional women's soccer team, Angel City FC, she pioneered a community-first 10% sponsorship model that drove significant commercial success. Kara co-leads Monarch Collective, investing in women’s sports teams and related businesses across the U.S. and Europe. Previously, she was a managing partner at Upfront Ventures and an executive at IAC, where she helped incubate Tinder through Hatch Labs. Connect with Kara: Kara’s LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/karanortman Resources Mentioned: Monarch Collective: https://monarchcoll.com Angel City FC: https://angelcity.com   Leap Academy: Ready to make the LEAP in your career? There is a NEW WAY for professionals to fast-track their careers and leap to bigger opportunities. Check out our free training today at https://bit.ly/leap--free-training

Wow, this show is going to be incredible. So buckle up, and I'm sure you're going to enjoy it. But before we get started, I want to ask you for a favor. See, it's really, really important for me to help millions of people elevate their career, fast-track to leadership, land dream rules, jump to entrepreneurship, or create portfolio careers. And this podcast is all about enabling this for millions of people to see a map of what it actually takes for big leaders to reach success. So subscribe and download.

never missed it. Plus, it really, really helps me continue to bring amazing guests. Okay, so let's dive in. If you are in a place where you can take risk, even if you have a huge expense line and things like this, just look at how long you have to go and then try it. Kara Nordman is a managing partner of Mornar Collective, and she's the co-founder of Angel City Football Club. She also started all raise a movement to change the landscape of women in venture capital. What I discovered in the early days of being curious about women's sports was that I had something to offer that was valued. I wasn't going to be paid for it, but it gave me joy. I think we're in a stage of life where we all just want more, more, more. Something better or something you're missing out

on is being marketed to you on social media. And I actually think what we want is... I'm sure there's also a journey of rejections and hardship and doubts. What made it a success? My husband said to me last night, he's like, you realize you're in the rejection business. Like, you get so much rejection. And I'm like, you're right. But I love getting rejection around our fund because our our guest today doesn't just talk about change. She just jumps all in. and drives it. Kara Nortman is a managing partner of Monar Collective, the first investment platform exclusively dedicated to investing in women's sports. And she's the co-founder of Angel City Football Club, which quickly became the most valuable women's soccer team in the world. She also started

all raise, a movement to change the landscape of women in venture capital. I met Kara when she was a managing partner in upfront ventures. I've been following. her for years. And, you know, at that point, she backed some of the most ambitious entrepreneurs of our time. Kara, thank you for being on the show. Thank you for having me, Lana. I'm thrilled to be here. Yeah, it's going to be so fun. But first of all, I have to ask, women, sports, like, how did you even decide to go for that? Yeah. I mean, I'll back it up and say, you know, one of the reasons we call it monarch, and I won't go through the whole story right now, is following your energy and serendipity. And I very much did that with women's sports. I mean, I wasn't an athlete growing up. People always asked me

if I played soccer. I did, but actually my main sport was basketball and then crew. But no, I went to a 2015 Women's World Cup game with my three daughters, my husband, my parents, just to have fun in Vancouver in 2015. I had the time of my life. Sometimes I think I just hadn't had fun in a while. I was a 39-year-old working mom of three. And I was like, oh, this is what fun feels like. And so, you know, what do Americans do? they have fun, they want to spend money. So I ran around Vancouver trying to buy jerseys for my daughters at nine stores, couldn't find them. And it was sort of surprising to me that you had this event where you had hundreds of millions of people and now billion people

watched the last women's world cup finals. But there was like nothing to do with that energy when it was done. So the analogy I made, it's like you have a 90-minute gatorade commercial and then there's no gatorade in the store, you know? But everyone told me I was the only one. You're the only one wants Gatorade. And I was like, really? Look at Instagram. So there's a long story in between there and why women's sports. But ultimately, what I realized is it was the first place in my life where all the things I cared about on the nonprofit side or just the purpose side, community, joy, getting different people collaborating together, drove different outcomes. And you would, like, build different experiences. And ultimately, these, like, women's sports is about

gathering community, providing entertainment, providing joy. And so in a lot of ways, it's like the best type of consumer investing you can do, I think, you know, and no one else was doing it. And no one was, you know, we'll talk about building Angel City, but I had had this experience building the team with my two co-founders. And I felt that was replicable and that I could both drive a lot of returns and make people a lot of money by doing something first and early that I was passionate about that very few people actually believed in at the time. Now they do, but when we started, they didn't. So take me there to your thought process for a second, Kara,

because again, a lot of people are like, okay, I'm not finding a jersey, and they go home, and that's it. And for you, you decide to start this whole journey of raising capital and doing the things. And take me there for a second, especially in the beginning. Like, I'm sure people gave you a lot of hard time, a lot of, like you said, like nobody needs this. How did you even start?

If I were to write a book, or many books, one of them might be the art of the side hustle or not all your hobbies and passions need to be your job, right? And then if it's meant to be your job, it will magically turn into it. But I think we're all looking for things that bring us joy, right? And that might be mountain biking. It might be a cappella singing on the side. It might be having a glass of wine from Bordeaux where you study Bordeaux. For me, I am really curious and interested in lots of things. Like, I'll get interested in five or ten different things in a week. And most of them just go away, right? Like, what are you interested in when you read the newspaper? You go to something and you're like, huh, why is it that way? But the things that stick

around and you spend time on for no reason at all, and that was what women's soccer was for me coming out of that game, I think those are the things to pay attention to, but you don't necessarily need to turn them into a job or something you make money from. Like, you could truly just turn have an interest. So that's what happened with me is I just was so intrigued when I realized now looking at this moment of intrigue that I've had others like it. And it was like, how do you identify when something you're intrigued by sticks around and you actually put a ton of time into it? So I like to say, I was joyfully irritated and deeply curious that I so badly wanted to go watch Tobin Heath and Crystal Dunn and Alex Morgan and Abby Wambach

play, but I couldn't, and that I so badly wanted to buy these jerseys, and I couldn't, and that everyone was saying I was the only one, but my interest was so deep. So I started what now, in retrospect, looks like market research when I just started talking to people, and eventually, like, why is this the case? And how do we know? It's like, how do you know that I'm the only one? And then eventually I started being introduced to the players. So they were all starting businesses at the time. And I was a venture capitalist. I'm like, free advice over here.

And I became friends with a number of them and would help them as they were thinking about starting their clothing line or their community. And there was a lot of joy in just being different kinds of people. I operated in tech and venture capital. And they operated in extraordinary virtuosity on the field, but also were like these brilliant women who went to Stanford and UNC and UVA and had a lot to offer the world off the pitch as well. And then eventually I was introduced to the head of the U.S. Women's National Team Players, human woman named Becca Roo, who I sat next to actually in an Angel City game last night and is like there from day zero for me. And she asked me if I wanted to be an advisor to the union. So anyway, we can get into that. But it ultimately was just something I was

really interested in, like the way people get interested in Majan or EDM music. And when you find joy and interest in it and you're talking about it all the time, which I was, you just follow. And I created the space to follow it. My kids were finally old enough that I was allowed to have a hobby. And it just became, why can't I watch her buy them? You know? And I love that. And I do want to go there with you, Kara, because we're a big believers in what I call portfolio career. I think that is part of the future anyway. Like I think gone are the days that you just do this one thing for 40 years and retire with a golden watch and a party. But what I also loved about what you said, Kara, and I want the listeners to absorb that. volunteering your time is an incredible way to assess if this is something that you love to do more seriously. Like, I think it's just so beautifully that you just said, hey, let me try to help these people and see if this is taking me somewhere. I think we are so wired to think about efficiency and transactability and did I get an ROI on my time or like an idea of what makes us happy, right? I got to fit in the run or the push-ups. And, like, I mean, those things do make us happy.

You know, my husband, who's been an incredible partner, but also I realized recently, like, he's an executive coach, but he became that kind of mid-career. I realized he'd been coaching me my whole career. He's always encouraged me and our kids to truly understand what intrinsic motivation feels like. He has me do this thing sometimes where he's like, just rate your energy. After every person you meet, everything you do, your day, truly understand where you're finding subtle pockets of joy or energy and where you're doing things out of obligation and a lot falls on either side, but a lot falls in between. And so I think this idea of like when you actually

truly allow yourself just to like understand what lights you up and not need it to be anything, it's a hard thing to do as an ambitious American. My youngest daughter at that game, I think, was like three or, no, five, how old was she? She was like, 2015. Actually, she was pretty young. But my youngest daughter was old enough that it was like, oh, I could begin having a hobby again. And for a long time, I just was a workaholic, and I always loved what I did. You know, I loved tech and learning tech and working with founders or being a founder. But I finally realized I had this space for something that could just be mine. And people asked me all the time, did you do this for your kids?

And it's been a powerful thing for them to see something that they understand and that I think inspires them. But no, I did it for me. I really was curious. And I loved it. And I loved this community. So I think it's just like letting things sneak up on you, but then bringing the awareness to like, oh, how do I get serious about like really wanting to spend time on this thing?

Otherwise, we're so busy. We don't make time for things that don't make money or drive success in other people's eyes. And I think we're all looking for a community. And so I think we're in a stage of life where we all just want more, more, and it impacts all of us, right? this gluttonous stage of development that we're in as a world probably right now. Or it's always like something better or something you're missing out on is being marketed to you on social media. And I actually think what we want is real relationships, people we can call

up last minute and say, do you want to go on a walk? And one out of every two times they may say yes and do it. And then I think being in service and being in service around things that we have something unique to offer where we feel valued and where we can like partner around the things that we're not as good at and not feel shame around it. And so that is really what I discovered in the early days of being curious about women's soccer and then women's sports was that I had something to offer that was valued. I wasn't going to be paid for it, but it gave me joy. You know, I could bring these players in the union into understanding kind of my world a little bit. And you can do that as like a parent, as a friend, as in anything. And I think we're all

pretty lonely and not doing enough of just that. I think we are living in a world that there's just endless possibilities. And there's this constant game between I'm going to look at it from the 30,000 foot view of what else is possible and what do I want to say yes to? But then you also want to focus. And at the end of the day, just start like, okay, do I want to make this real or not? And so you're helping the union, before we go back in time to your career, I want to kind of close a little on this like because you created something incredible that nobody was there. Nobody almost cared about. And you brought it to a whole different level. Take me to that journey for a second. Yeah. And maybe I'll like try to like line it up to your sort of portfolio career. I think it's like a portfolio of just interest too and having the right sense of urgency. around each one in your portfolio. So I have a deep sense of urgency around my job, right?

And then my kids. And it's sort of like I'm always balancing that and my husband, you know. But I had sort of like a moderate sense of urgency around women's soccer. And there were other things I was just as interested in as at the time. And so if I think about it, it's like the interest began in 2015. I don't think I met Becca for a few years, you know. And so at that point in time, I just was like, Thinking about it, I remember I couldn't get a jersey. I finally got a jersey from a friend of mine who worked at WME, which is one of the big agencies here. And it was Carly Lloyd's jersey. I was trying to get actually Megan Klingenberg's jersey. Carly scores a lot of goals. Megan stops a lot of goals at the time. Or I'd be at an event or dinner or somewhere, you know, I'd talk to a friend of mine who ended up on our board at Angel City being like, why doesn't women's sports get put on traditional media distribution? He's like, because, you know, you

you can't get sponsors. And by the way, that wasn't right, right, for women's sports. So there were a lot of people who thought things that were like not first principle thinking, that were kind of, and we can get into that if you want to. But I think it's a portfolio of interest and just being ready for serendipity to show up, right? Like I got introduced to Becca Rue by a woman named Heidi Patel. She runs the biggest impact fund, maybe in the world, at least in the U.S., rethink impact. And she's like, God, my friend Kara.

and she calls me something else. I have a lot of nicknames. They're all PG, but he's always talking about women's soccer as this example of X, Y, and Z. And I'm going to introduce her to Becca. She spoke at an event we threw, and she was amazing, and that happened years later. And then Becca was like, you know,

and we had these constant little butterfly effects. You know, Julie, my co-founder at Angel City, who's the CEO of Angel City, I played basketball against her in high school. We had to pick up women in tech, basketball game and literally was at that game. I was like, hey, Julie, I'm working on the soccer thing. Do you want to come hear about it? Go to a game with me on the men's side. She's like, sure. I'll watch any sport once. So anyway, there's all these little things that

showed up, but they didn't show up immediately versus like, I think about COVID. And I think COVID played a role in all of this. I think a lot of things played a role in all of this. But COVID was the first time in my career. I wasn't traveling a ton. I had a time to slow down and really, like, think about what lit me up. But I picked up a lot of things during COVID. I mean, I became a downhill mountain biker during COVID. So I picked up, like, women's sports in an even bigger. I mean, we were already off and running with Angel City,

but it is when I started thinking about, like, how does this scale even beyond a team? And so I think it's just, like, presence to know when things hit you, to realize what people may be important to, like, allow things to marinate and go away, but also to allow them to come back. And then for me, it's about people. Like, I'm inspired by, like,

having accountability with people who kind of begin to see what I see. And I do see certain things earlier than others, you know, where it's real. And then it's sort of like, if I find an accountability partner and I'm working with someone who gives me energy, and sometimes this is like somebody

who just makes me want to write and it's a friend. But other times, like, you know, Natalie Portman and then Julie Irman, finding the two of them, I was like, oh, these women see the world the way I see the world. And then it was like a one plus one plus one equal 35,000, you know. But it marinated for a while before I got there. I think we're also impatient creatures, right?

Like we want everything yesterday and it should be big and famous, right? And I think it's interesting to see, like, how do you balance between the venture capital operations, tech operations hat that you have, which probably was a lot of go, go, go, go, go. And then on the other hand, the patients who just kind of simmer in this and give it a shot. Yeah, no, you're actually really making me think about this real time because there's certain things in my life right now that I'm not taking my own advice on. I'm not feeling patient around, you know, and it's like, oh, I want this outcome now. And if it's not happening, just the idea that I could sit in the gray and let it be,

knowing hopefully I have another 50 to 70 years to live or another day. None of us knows. So I think the things we really want and need to happen that are a core part of our identity or like our day-to-day happiness, whether it's work, relationships, whatever, it's really hard to take this advice. So I'm going to try to take my own advice. If you're feeling stuck underpaid or unappreciated or you're simply ready to take your career in life to the next level. I have the perfect solution for you. We have a program that helps you fast track and leap your reputation and career. Become the best version of yourself. Get the dream role you deserve, move up to leadership, jump to entrepreneurship, or even build a portfolio

career. This program helps hundreds a year and it will help you gain the income, influence, and impact that will transform the second part of your life. Watch our free training today at leapacademy.com slash free hyphen training. The link is in the show notes. Now back to the show. I wanted to talk to me for a second from the moment that you're saying, you know what, let me, you know,

I simmered in this, I met these people, I know I can add some value. What makes you say, okay, this is what we're doing and now you're starting to create this partnership and raising capital. Like, take me for a second on that journey

because I'm sure there's also a journey of rejections and hardship and doubt. So take me on that journey. My husband said to me last night, he's like, you realize you're in the rejection business. Like you say you don't love rejection, but you get so much rejection. And I'm like, you're right, but I still don't like in certain context. In other contexts, I'm like, reject me. Listen, it was this confluence of things that happened and always played a really big role in it. So I have this interest in soccer. I'm trying to think what else I was interested at the time. I've always interested in personal development and self-improvement. So I got really interested in how do I be better? How do we build great

cultures? But I came across it very scientifically. And during this time, I also was getting really interested in things that my family of origin would consider woo-woo. You know, personality profiling, enneagrams, astrology, how do you construct teams in a way where you really understood people's energy and motivation and core vice and not just kind of their tactical skills. So I'm always curious about like a whole lot of things. Right now I'm reading about Margaret Thatcher and the coal mines and the, I'm going to just sound really smart here for a second. I'm sort of being forced to read it because I'm doing a fellowship at the Aspen Institute, but I'm also really enjoying it. Like I feel like I'm back in college. So I have a portfolio of

things. What really got me serious, though, about what led to Angel City was, I think finding, like, purpose in creating kind of the nonprofit I was involved in starting in the beginning, Allraise. And then the friendships that came out of that and realizing I was making like real friendships, not like, how do we do deals and who's going to send me what, but real friendships with women at my stage of career, female partners and venture capital firms, because we had a joint project to work on. So to make that concrete, things got, I think, pretty serious around the time

that we were starting Allrays. And there were 15 of us right now. It's like the whole industry and it's been built 10 times over by extraordinary people. Page CEO is incredible. You know, Eileen Lee and Jesselie, who got it going. But there were 15 of us in the beginning

who were just like, hey, there's a bunch of weird stuff going on in tech, you know, and a bunch of things that were just really upsetting to us. And I was one of two people from L.A. who flew up to the Bay Area and just started working on like, how do we help female founders and women in venture firms? And we launched a bunch of projects, female founder office hours, a data project to look at the percentage of women in venture funds and GPs, a bunch of things around that. And I kind of like was responsible for business development with other organizations because there was a number starting at the same time

and then running a female founder's office hours event in L.A. And so I just started working with a lot of the women, Jess Lee, Eva Ho, Kirsten Green, and we all became friends. And through that, I realized I ended up getting to know a lot of the women in Hollywood involved in Times Up and other things like that. And then eventually we had, I mean, this is actually a fun part of the story. So I'll get, I'll get crystallized here. We had an event where kind of women from different parts of the business industry, from Hollywood to tech to finance to media. together to just sort of collaborate on how do we get to know each other and how do we bring

how do we just help more women get into senior roles and underrepresented people and they asked me to speak on stage to represent tech and at the end of that time it was a small room was 150 people I said a bunch of things like let's make the room bigger how do we bring men in how do we bring more women in but I said while we're here go make a new friend in an industry where you probably are never going to do work and just make a new friend get their number go out to a meal and see if they're weird, block them, but maybe you'll make a new friend. And the person who came up to me

and gave me her number was Natalie Portman. And we went and had a meal and we talked about everything in the world. In the last 10 minutes, I told her about my work with the U.S. Women's National Team Players Union. She said, how can I help? And then I brought her in,

I mean, she has many more Instagram followers than anyone else I knew who had asked that. And we threw an event together to bring her actress friends. I brought my tech friends and the lead-up to the 2019 Women's World Cup. You can still find the picture of her

and Eva Longoria, Benizzo Boudo, and Jessica Chastain. And I brought my tech friends, you know, Ali Rosenthal and Claire Hughes Johnson from Stripe and I don't know, there's just a ton of people down there, Layla Sturdy.

And like everyone loved meeting each other and sort of like new friendships were emerging. And then eventually Natalie looked at me and it's like, why don't we start a team? The idea had never crossed my mind. And I went to the men's teams and said, like,

how can I help you start a team for free? I just wanted to to exist. And so I can go from there, but ultimately, like, I would say no one really believed in it. And I said to Natalie, aren't you, are you crazy? Like, I think you need to be a billionaire much later in life. And she said, no, I think we could do it. Don't you know how to do that? And I'm like, well, I know how to build teams and raise capital, but like, I don't have a stadium in my back pocket. But so I went to the men's teams and then I realized, well, we have a bunch of stadiums in L.A. and ultimately, I was doing a lot of work to try to get other people

to say yes and own all of it, but I was doing a lot of work on it. And Natalie was doing a lot of work on it. And she said, is this how it works in your industry? Right. And I'm a venture capitalist at the time. You do all the work or we do all the work and somebody else owns it. And I was like, huh, no, there's something called founder equity. And so we just kind of completely switched our mindset and we're like, I was like, oh, I'm in the business of building things, but also pricing risk. What would be the risk of me and Natalie and then Julie starting this like you would a tech company and owning 100% of it as founders, not having a license to operate in LA, not having a stadium, but having like a real plan as to how we would do that. And then we ended up raising just shy of

a million dollars after a long process and many people being like, you guys are nuts. But three weeks before COVID at, you know, a $6 million valuation, we gave away 10, 15% of the company, but we owned 85% of it, right? And then COVID came. And then you're like, oh, my God, we got to figure this out. So anyway, that's how Angel City started. And I would say it was as someone who's like grown up in business and in this world, it was very organic. We started Angel City in 2019, but I started thinking about this in 2015. And it was a four-year journey of just not having an agenda and just following my interest and getting to know the players and the union and everything else. I'm sure, first of all, there's a ton of rejections on that one million

dollars. Is there a moment where you're saying, am I kidding me? Like, what on earth am I doing? Natalie and I met, I don't know, 2018, maybe 2008, early 19. Getting Julie involved was like, you know, a major milestone in retrospect, right? And Natalie and I took her to an LAFC game, August of 2019. And that's when we really started working like two in the morning on this. And Julie and I were sending decks back and forth and Natalie would give us feedback and, you know, really trying to like refine the model. How much revenue could we drive? And like just get ready to like, okay, we got the team. We can do this together. You know, who are we going to go to at Lisa Stadium, all this stuff? And we got a lot of people close to yes, and then they would pass in the last moment.

It was like, what kind of investor are we bringing in? And actually at the game last night, someone was reminding me about one investor I really wanted. He ran a very big private equity firm, a bunch of my friends had worked for him at one of the big banks, kind of all the things. Like great investor, great operator, great human, had really supported all different kinds of people rising in his organization. And I remember he called me, I think it was January, and said, I'm going to pass and I still remember why. And I was just like on the floor like, God, I thought this was it. And so I'm a pretty like, if I believe in something, I'll keep going.

But I also always gave founders the advice, like eventually you have to take the signal and your time is valuable and maybe you're wrong, you know, like at some point or you figure out how to do it without needing capital. But Julie would pull me up. And the same thing, like when she had those moments, I'd pull her up. So a lot of what I think made this work, ultimately, was Julie and I were never down at the same moment. We kind of gave ourselves April as the deadline. And we got the capital, you know, kind of closed in February.

But I remember, like, January being really low, really low. Wow. Wow. I didn't know if I was raising $50 million or $500,000. I knew ultimately it was probably going to take $50 million, you know, an adventure you'd raise, like, a $4 million. dollar seed and then you're whatever crazy series A's are now. You're $10 million, $20 million series, and you just go here. It was like we did it in a way that was like different.

To my knowledge, I think we're the only C-Corp in sports, you know, and it was a kind of a founder-driven thing. Every other team has the concept of a control owner, which we ultimately had and we brought in an investor to be that. But, you know, I mean, a couple investors to be that at different stages. But it was like, I could, I didn't know. Like, we initially went out looking for someone who was going to own 90% of it. Maybe we'd get an equity pool as founders and be our control owner and backstop everything

and be ready to put in 50 million. So there was a lot of learnings around like, you know to go to Cedar Series A investors if you're starting a tech company. I'm like going to family offices and some funds and then our friends, some of whom who happened to be famous. And, you know, and so it was very confusing. How much are you raising? How do you price it? Are you doing round? Is this more venture like or is this more sports like? And we ended up more venture like and then more sports like.

But it was like a real journey of what is our product market fit even in finding the right funding. Capital. Yeah. That's incredible. I mean, especially because you did come from, again, you have a ton of tech. We'll talk about it in a second and a ton of investor in venture capital. And still just hearing your story, I think is really, really important because I literally wrote this quote, you are in the rejection business. Like I think every single person that is driven and wants more from their career, from their life will eventually push their limits to be in the rejection business. And I think the bigger you're trying to aim, the more rejections you're going to face. Yeah. I mean, it's a takeaway from talking to you today. It's almost like you can like segment

rejection. There's some rejection is comfortable for me taking. There's other rejection that hurts every time I get it, you know, and it's like the ones where you think it's going to happen and then it doesn't in the last minute or like you don't feel seen by someone that you have like a deep relationship with versus like, you know, this just isn't for me. And up front, now that I raise capital for a fund, right, I run with my partner Jasmine Robinson Monarch Collective, where $250 million women's sports fund. And we raise that fund also when like another one doesn't exist. More will come, but there's some real first-mover advantages where I love getting rejection around our fund because it's just like those people often become my friends because

what we do is really different. We're going to really differentiate in how we make people money. We're in this risky symmetry that no one else is in the most mature parts of the women's sports ecosystem. And there's a whole lot of people who are like, well, this isn't for my university. And by the way, like a lot of university endowments are like this very much is for my university. It's uncorrelated. It's culturally impactful. It's differentiated. All that stuff. But if you then stop and are like, okay, I'm not going to get this order for the thing. I know. Some of those people have become my really close friends. And then they come back to me. They're like, why aren't you pitching me? I'm like, because I thought we were friends.

And so it's almost like segment rejection. And where is it hard for you? And where is it easy? And then what are the other things in life behind that rejection that could be positive on the personal relationship front, my husband rejecting me and like, hey, I want to go to this festival. We can't go to that festival. Wait, why not? Because I always want to do more than he does. So anyway, I think it's interesting to segment rejection, understand where it's easy and where it's hard. Because I think as human beings, we're all in the rejection business if we're trying to find purpose and work, passion in love and in relationship. And we're looking like for plans. Like how often do you invite yourself to someone's house? If you did it more often,

you'd probably have more of the plans you want. And if people could just say no, you might be having more of the plans you want to have. So with this in mind and with how you look at rejections and pitching people and not being afraid. And I'm hearing a lot of things about also like looking at a big, huge, humongous projects and instilling it into smaller projects. But let me take you back in time for a second to how did you even get into the venture world

in the first place, like, again, there was like Morgan Stanley and Battery Ventures. Like, take me for a second to like a little bit back in time. How do you even get into this pretty crowded, male-dominated area? Like, how did you even get in? I grew up in the San Fernando Valley in L.A. I did my undergrad at Princeton. I studied politics and did a side of a lot of other things, economics, et cetera.

But honestly, I didn't really have a background in finance. And then coming out of school, I was deciding between working at Morgan Stanley in their captive private equity firm, which was. very quantitative, very specific, you know, sit around build big models all day and night, or going to work for a consumer protection nonprofit. Unfortunately, you can't do that anymore, but those were like my two interests. And in a way, what I'm doing now, it's like bringing those two together. Combining, yeah.

Honestly, I mean, I actually ran into one of the guys who convinced me to go work at Morgan Stanley this week at this, like, event where I was talking to university endowments and pensions. And I was like, God, would I even be in this room if it wasn't for this. guy who had taken me to a meal. And what he said to me was, Kara, if you come to Morgan Stanley and you do well and learn finance, you can do all your other save the world stuff. You know, you're going to have a skill set to go save the world. So go get a skill that like scales across bold. And so it's a little bit of the life advice that, okay, yeah, you should follow your passions. But also, what do I tell my daughters on a world of AI? What are the skills to have?

What are the skills that could really span across a lot of different things? And so that was good advice. And then honestly, you would interview with different groups at Morgan Stanley. You take the job and then you didn't know what group you were in. And I just ended up in like one of the maybe two or three there that was the most quantitative, hardest. I'd never used Excel. I'd never taken a finance course. And I'm like, I'll go do the hardest one.

But I was scared. I mean, it was scary, you know, and I was wearing nylons and suits. But I did it. And, you know, I did pretty well, but I also realized the things even then that made me feel different. And they weren't things I necessarily felt good about. I think sometimes I say it took starting a professional women's soccer team in my 40s with two other women to have confidence in myself and understand where what I saw differently was a positive. And everyone says they want cognitive diversity in their firms. But I think the hard thing is when you think differently

in a firm, and if you've actually spent the time to, like, gain credibility and learn how that firm works and learn how that industry works. Like, you can't come in day one and be like, here are all my ideas and they're better than yours. But if you've done that, it's very hard to not feel like these are bad or wrong, or I must not be getting it right. I think that's disproportionately female, but it could be male as well, like, you know, if you come from a different socioeconomic background, different race, a different kind of family. And so I guess what I would say is one of the things that was different about me at Morgan Stanley was like, I seem to want to become the expert on like back in the day DSL or cable modems or unbundling local loops,

which was like what tech was in the, you know, 1997 when I was there. And then I was reading books like electrical engineering for non-electrical engineers and being asked to send conferences. And then once I cold called a company that I thought we should look at, and I'm working on leverage buyouts, right, in health care and chemicals. And they're like, you can't do that. You can't call companies. You just model quietly and sit in the room. And I just got really passionate about tech. And I was actually, I did sit in a room of a board of this telecom company with Rick Frisbee, who was the founder of Battery Ventures. And he took a liking to me. We had a meal. And he was like, why don't you come work for us? And I mean, it wasn't that easy. But I interviewed

to work for them along with a lot of private equity firms and hedge funds. And, I took a 50% pay cut. I remember my dad, who's a doctor, being like, why is everyone else you're working with going and making more money? And you're taking a pay cut to go work at Battery Ventures. But it just felt like the gold rush to me. I love learning about, like, the protocols and OSI stacks and super nerdy stuff. And I just found that a lot more interesting than a manure business, you know,

a buyout on a manure business. And I love the innovation. So that's how I ended up at Battery. And then it's a whole story from there. but I learned a cold call and sourced and I loved it. And it turns out, like, wetting those two skill sets of, like, learning tech, being able to go out and generate business and, like, sell things you believed in. And then being able to work on what you, you know, it's like you, you, what is it? You eat what you kill, I guess.

So I do the due diligence. And then eventually I would even get the board rolls. So I was given my first couple board rolls, a battery in my mid-20s. And I was learning from Tom Crotty, Rick Frisbee, Todd Degger. All these guys who went on to either start other firms or like build one of the best firms around in battery ventures. And I think one of the things that I literally just talked about was somebody, I was like one of the best pieces of sitting on a board is that you, yes, obviously you get to help and, you know, et cetera and with your, you know, and share knowledge, et cetera. But the biggest thing is you sit with really smart people and you learn from each other. It's like it's pretty amazing.

But then you went into the tech. By the way, one other quick thing I'd say, too, is like it was a different time in venture. And a lot of ways I make the analogy to the way it is in women's sports now where it's like there are not very many firms looking at and doing what we're doing. But yet, like, when we invest in the Boston expansion franchise and they buy in it at $50 million and the last franchise went to Denver, you know, 100 and whatever it is, 20 million, like we are there as Boston's partner.

We're working every day with them on stadium financing, building. the executive team, and we're doing it at a much lower valuation than just the right to operate in another market. So you're downsized protected, right? And your upside as venture-like, but we were the only ones working on it. And it requires, like, stakeholder relationships and operating skills and coming out of Angel City, my partner came out of the 49ers. Venture wasn't that different back then. There were five firms in Boston, five firms in the Bay Area. Now there's thousands. It's an efficient market. But it was inefficient back then. And so I also, like, you could price things reasonably. You could exit reasonably and generate five to 10x funds because the market

was behaving more responsibly, you know, and it was much more fragmented. And so it is one of the things like I learned being not just at battery. These were like really high integrity, hardworking, low ego guys, just like hustle harder, do the right thing, never sit on more than six boards at the time. And it's kind of a similar model right now in women's sports. And so I've thought a lot about that, you know, as well. And the analogies there and how different venture is now where it's so much of it is marketing and it's such an efficient market, you know? So then you decide to become an operator, right? I mean, there's like IAC and Urban Spoon and you're in those executive level roles. What do you feel are some of the maybe hard lessons that you learned in, you know,

when you switch from venture to actually an operator? Because I'm sure it's very different experiences as well, which I'm sure you're also bringing in today. Yeah, I mean, to the extent people who listen to this are thinking about, like, am I an operator and am I investor? I think a lot of people go through that journey. And I always say, am I well-suited to both or ill-suited to both? But I think, ultimately, what I've realized over the course of my life and career is I'm a very operationally oriented investor.

And you can kind of hit either side of it, but knowing how to structure, be disciplined, be intellectually honest, and, like, walk or chase. you know, and price risk is a real skill set, right? And I learned that at Morgan Stanley and private equity, at battery ventures, at upfront ventures and at IAC, where I started an M&A and ended up co-heading the M&A group. And there we were very creative structures. I worked for Victor Kaufman, who was Barry Diller's right hand, and it's still a mentor to me. And it was really about how do you generate, you know, EBITDA, or what they called OIBA. But every structure was different. And in a lot of ways, actually, that's what I now really.

really my partner, Jasmine Robinson and I do at Monarch. Every deal is structured differently, and then, you know, it's, but the risk outcome is the same. But the operational side I always really valued because I think there are two kinds of investors who emerge over time. There are those who are portfolio managers and sort of generally know how to price risk, manage a big portfolio, and are more passive. And then there are those that are really operational hands-on. And your portfolio size is an indicator. You may say you're operational in hands. on. But if you haven't scaled a huge operating team to go alongside a big portfolio, it's hard to do that. And so I'd always wanted to be an operator. I'd worked for my

summer in between my two years at business school at Microsoft. I'd always been placed in corp dev. Like, everyone, nobody wanted me to be an operator. And so IAC was this opportunity to come into M&A, do something I knew how to do. And if I did a good job, IAC had a reputation for taking senior executives in corporate and giving them a chance to operate. And it was one of my most fun, most intellectually honest. I loved the job. And it also a meritocracy, you know, like there are two women in corporate, me and Chana Fisher, but it was a really like much more cognitively diverse group.

And, you know, like we were in a way really disciplined, but we'd come in and be like, how do we get something in front of Barry that moves his brain? And then how do we like beat each other? up in the nicest way possible to find out it's something IAC should do. And so while I was there, we spun out Ticketmaster, HSN, Lending Tree. We also incubated Vimeo at a college humor. And then I moved into these operating roles where I ran a bunch of businesses. Some were falling knives. Some were high growth. So Urban Spoon, super high growth. We took it from 1 million to 30 million users, first iPhone product. I was part of led the team when we were building out of Salesforce,

rolled out a competitive product to Open Table, ended up selling it to Open Table. But also city search, which was going like this when I was given to it. I ended up playing a key role in incubating what became Tinder while I was pregnant with my third child and recruited Sean Radin and just that was incubated out of L.A. for a mobile incubator where this became, I think, the main thing that generated returns and is obviously the heart and soul of a dating business now. So there was a lot of diversity there. And so what I would say is I love building things. Right now, what I'm loving building is monarch as a firm. So we have an investment product, but we are building a company at Monarch. Many of the people we hire come out of operating

roles at the MLS or the NFL or a big team in England and we train them to be investors. And then we have excellent investors who are great at structuring, but we're building it much more like a company than a firm. And so what I'm doing now is the best of both worlds. I think a lot of the journey is just knowing what you personally love. And then honestly, finding a great partner who compliments you. And I've really found that at Monarch and I really found that at Angel City with Julie and Natalie. Which is incredible because that's also one of the hardest pieces. I think where I started hearing about you and we talked a little bit about it is in upfront ventures. And was it your first partner role in a, you know, pretty prominent?

You're next to Mark Suster, who is very vocal like you see, you know, at least at that point, was like, I don't know. Like, we saw him all over. What was that like? I mean, everyone I've worked with and for in my career has been extraordinary at something. And I think this in general is a thing to get in touch with. Like, we all have spiky superpowers. And, like, Mark, for example, like, it was just incredible how he would see talent and bring it in and really understand sort of, like, how to build a fund, right?

And the LP side and all the other things. But I think for each, it's something I think about is, like, where does everybody, spike. I was actually writing up, I'm going through, like, thinking through our next fund right now because pipeline's really good and, you know, and we have, you know, a lot of interest coming in and the like. But I, you know, I know that this word used to irritate me, but now I love it. I was going back to first principles. I'm like, what is really different about us? What is our differentiated product before we invest, after we invest, what, you know, how has Monarch become this brand and then like why do we have the right to win and then why do people want to work here

and work with us and you know there's a lot of things in there first mover our operational value add product etc but one of them was like we really have 10 xers in terms of people and they all spike on something and then i have gone above and beyond to figure out with my partner jasmine how do we be collaborative internally how do we pass the baton back and forth and when do we double up on things, which we do a lot, where somebody's strong at one thing and somebody else is strong at another thing. And so I think being at upfront and all the firms that came before that, it's like each one of them I took something away that, you know, I mean, I started Monarch in my mid-40s. And I wasn't necessarily, you know, a lot of things I've done that people now know

me for, Angel City, which for those who don't know Angel City, it was the first majority female-owned female-led professional sports team in the country. We went from zero to 30 million in revenue our first year and had more season ticket holders than two professional teams in L.A. And we really proved out the commercial model for a women's sports team was viable. We built their first P&L. And then a lot of the other teams, there were a lot of people who have been doing work for a long time, but everyone said a professional sports team in L.A. wouldn't work, another one, like essentially an 12th one.

And so I think we showed that, you know, if you build an incredible experience, butts in seats and you have a product on the field that people just don't get, but is as fun, if not more fun, than anything else out there, it can work. And we exceeded our initial forecast in our first year live by 4.2X. How often does that happen in Ventures? So I just want to mention that. What happened? What made it a success?

For Angel City, I would say, like, it really was a unique dynamic between me, Julie, and Natalie. I mean, so first of all, like, I do think the market timing was right for something like us to emerge, but it was hard. I mean, it was the hardest six years of work in my life until we brought Bob Eager and Willow Bay in as our control owners. And we're all still very involved and have equity stakes and Julie's the CEO.

But, you know, it was like, I mean, did we create the market or was the market ready? I guess we could have that debate. I think it really was like Natalie had this sort of like very, like we were all mission oriented, but she really held it. Like, what does it mean to have?

representation. I remember we had certain conversations around like stadiums, where we're going to have rooms where people could nurse and how are we going to create an environment that really stood for our values. Julie just like ran through walls. And so did I. In a way, Julie and I had similar skill sets, but we both could sit in the complementary nature of them, you know, and like fundraising, building a team, getting sponsors on board, building community. I'd say one thing like Julie was out at every community event. We did 300 community events and we pioneered a new sponsorship model. We donated 10% of every sponsor contract into a community cost. So DoorDash, we broke records. They were a $10 million contract for our chronic kit, which is unheard of.

And we hadn't sold a single season ticket or had a single player. But we'd go to dinner with these people and we tell them the vision. And I think we inspired people to believe it was possible and that change things. And then now it kind of blows my mind. You know, like when I go to games, even last night, I got a note from my friend who was in from the Bay Area, my friend Michael, who said, I get it now. This is a community. And I'm randomly bumping into someone I grew up with or my teacher from preschool. I like just, it's so, and I've, you know, I grew up in L.A. I know these people, but that's the case for everyone. Like, I'll meet, I'll just meet different groups of people who are like, have a whole group of friends that they meet there and they

love. So that was Angel City, and I think it was like, honestly, we just killed ourselves working on it. At some point, I realized this was my life's work, and it wasn't, you know, to be a managing partner over a traditional venture capital firm. And I had to recognize that. That was a big change for me because I loved up front. It was where I thought I would spend, like, I thought I'd be in venture the rest of my career. I got this job. I thought I wanted. And so one might call that a midlife awakening, but I listened to it and it was scary because there wasn't the concept of monarch out there. And I didn't know if I was going to ever make money, right? And I have three kids and live in LA. So I think it is really finding that thing and when it

speaks to you and it may speak to you in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, your 50s. Ariana Huffington didn't start her first business until her 50s. So I think it's just being ready for that when it shows up and then finding people that you can walk with who inspire you and knowing when to run through walls and take risk. We're a big believers, especially now that we see people leaping again, again, that the pace of change is ripe that you're going to change anyway every year or two, right? And it might be in the same place, but then in the same place, you'll change functions, you'll change responsibilities, you'll change whatever. And it might be in different industries or it might be a portfolio, or it might be another venture that you're after. So I think you will

find those, like, you're just going to need to leap again, again, and adapt. But now, you know, let's go with Monarch because, again, like at some point, you decided to leave this incredible venture that you were part of. And that might be scary. Yeah, it was really scary. And by the way, one quick thing just on what you said. So we wrote a, you know, a case study for a business school on Angel City. And there was a fair amount of interest in doing that. And one thing I realized that was important to me was that we put it in a class that was not a sports class, even though like we love the sports classes and we've done cases in sports classes, but the how we built Angel City, I really wanted it to be in a class

where many people who think they know what they're doing, which I thought I know what I was doing when I was 28 and graduating from business school could think about like, you think you know what your application is, but actually like finding the thing that's uniquely yours to do may come at different times. And it may be an area that you're very insecure about, you're nervous about the world doesn't see. So I wanted to inspire people to do that. And so Julie and Natalie and I wrote the case with Harvard, and it's in their kind of like second-year elective with Jeffrey Rayport scaling ventures. And it's, it's everyone. Because I think these things pop up sometimes, you know, when you least expect it. And the story of that to me is transcends sports, right?

And so monarch's similar thing, honestly, I had a like a spiritual moment in a cathedral in Spain, as ridiculous as that sounds. It does. I was in a cathedral of civil with my husband and daughters, and I had this moment where I was like, it takes hundreds of years to build these cathedrals. And when we go to Europe, we visit cathedrals, we visit the Coliseum, we visit palaces. Again, one of the reasons we call it monarch, building new kinds of monarchies that can spend the stand the test of time, the yin and the yang, the black, brown and white, the male and female. But I was in this cathedral, and I'm like, I'm laying the brick in the middle of a cathedral that there's a lot of them, you know,

And it was a really good one, but, like, I see something and feel something in women's sports, which is really just consumer or community, right? Like, if you think about women's sports or sports, the men, like, the whole ecosystem is probably a half a trillion dollar total addressable market. The women's side is a couple billion, and it was like a hundred million when we started. So it's a venture market growing quickly. It's a fraction of the men's side. But if you think about it, these are like monopolistic consumers.

IP platforms. There's no reason why this can't be trillions of dollars and it's a half a trillion now, but the women's side is teeny. But like that segment, if you do things a certain way, like Angel City or like the New York Liberty or like teams we're looking at now in Europe and you build the cap table in a certain way, you get the best talent in and you drive financial outcomes. You can also drive cultural outcomes. You can get a different fan base in. You're going to get different sponsor partners and activate them in different ways. So if you go to a Liberty game now, And I was there last week with a bunch of RLPs after a wonderful industry event we threw where we explained everyone how the market works.

You know, they have their Fenty cam. And it's like was Fenty and it's great. It's like a kiss cam, but with women and their makeup or men in their makeup. And, you know, you look at all the sponsors that are coming into teams like Angel City, Liberty, you know, Boston, Unity, which is another one of our investment, San Diego Wave, another one of them. it's a whole category of, like, brands that are getting, that have never advertised in sports, period. Like, there's no reason the women's side couldn't be bigger. But I think, like, Monarch started for me there.

I wrote this little Jerry Maguire memo, and I'm like, I got to go do this. I got to build something where we can help more teams, leagues and rights, but, like, teams, be more like Angel City, where we can come in as a large shareholder, work alongside family offices. In some cases, we help them bid and understand the market. entirely. In other cases, we come in later side by side and we'll bring, like, we bring talent, we bring brand sponsors, we bring our brains, we bring, you know, and so I wrote this memo and then I went looking for a partner and Jasmine and I just really hit it off. She has this extraordinary background at Bain and then the 49ers. She was in every operational role, you know,

more or less, you know, it's just a star when they moved from Candlestick to Levi's. And we shared a similar vision when, honestly, many others didn't. Now a lot of people do, but when we came together, you know, a handful of years ago, this was exotic. And we set out to raise 100. We ultimately realized the right fund size was 250, like, and we, that was our hard cap, which is a nice thing to say as a fund manager. But we have a very disciplined strategy where we're only focusing on the most premium brands, teams, leagues, and rights that can have cultural impact and drive, can drive financial returns in a way that are unique. So that's how it started with a memo and a partner who was a great compliment to me.

Ah, this is so beautiful. So right now, I think you, are you guys raising again? Or are you gals? We're raising again for my life. We're not raising right now, but we're always meeting, we're always meeting like mind. I mean, we also care about impact. We're an impact fund. So we really look for values alignment in every part of our ecosystem. And if you come to our LP meetings, it's like some of the top family offices and institutions in the and they're the most fun, right? And so it's like deep intellect and deep joy. And we say no to people on occasion. And keeping like that alignment is important. But we're always, always, always meeting new LPs and the like. And we try to spend time getting to know each other far in advance because it is a real two-way relationship. And so anyway, but yeah, we, I'd say pipeline

is really exciting and strong. We do a lot of thesis-based work. So we try to, like, we'll have Theses we're running that we won't invest in for two to five years, but we're mapping stakeholders in a new sport or a new country. So we invest between the U.S. and Europe, soccer, basketball, golf, tennis. We spend time in volleyball, hockey, cricket, rugby. But we spend the most time in those first four sports where media revenue is up into the right and where we can get the core business to break even or better. So it's really like a venture-like market with a growth, equity kind of risk profile. And it's fun. And we help people learn. And a lot of those people go on to buy their own teams. Like sometimes I don't become investors and monarch, but

like side-by-side partners or just friends in the ecosystem because we're all operating together in these leagues. And hopefully we can help a lot of people learn like, why would you invest in women's sports versus men? What's the right president profile for a women's team versus men or a chief revenue officer? Or like, how would you build a season ticket holder base and challenge your assumptions? Because for many of the best teams, the overlap with the men's team in that market is like less than 10%. So, where do you kind of look at doing things the same? But what you do differently is maybe the most important to build Real Madrid or the Cowboys or the Lakers or Dodgers because that's where you

are in women's sports. We don't know who all those teams are going to be. They're being built right now. And they may be worth many billions of dollars over the course of the next couple decades. And that's so exciting because it is changing everything in the ecosystem. So I'm inspired by this conversation, Kara, and what you guys are doing. And I mean, We have an all-female firm. We look to hire, though, like, in an open way. And so we put every, every job spec out on LinkedIn. It's been incredible to see the response just from that. You know, even we just made our first hire over in Europe and London to see the amount of people with interest, you know, over there. But I think we really do try to think about how to build a firm that can look at every investment in an intellectually honest way. You know, and just, and so I think I'm personally passionate. about just sort of how do you build financial institutions too in a way that it's not just different to be different, but like that were culture skills because I think people enjoying their jobs is how you be 10x in the thing you're excellent around. So thanks for the opportunity to

talk about it. It's, you know, sitting next to Beckeroo who runs the national team players union last night, she said, have you look back at the last seven or eight years and everything? You're like, you know, and it's just, I don't get to do it as often, but it's hard work, but I have a lot of gratitude for being able to be on podcast like this occasionally and talk about it. So thanks for having me. Oh, it was so fun. So maybe, maybe, maybe summarize that. If you would look at yourself 10, 20 years back, what would you want to know? Oh, God. What would you tell yourself? I got the chills when you asked me that question. You know, I think operate out of abundance and not fear. And when you're feeling the fear, you just can't make it

go away, but like sit in the pain and the fear. And it's, you know, I have a good life. I'm really grateful for it. I've learned a lot of things, you know, over the years. I've been to like, I did a lot of executive coaching and a lot of things to like make this change, you know, and feel responsible for earning income for my family. And I have a really good life. And, you know, went to the Hoffman Institute. Anyone has some self-improvement questions. I'm your woman. But I would say lean in. I guess I'd say like when you're filling the pain, personal pain, professional pain, know that don't run away from something, sit in it. It's always better to run to something and know what you're running to.

And, you know, like figure out ways to like actually figure out ultimately, you know, I have this executive coach that was life-changing. Her name's Diana Chapman. She's started a conscious leadership group. She changed my life probably more than anyone other than my parents, my husband, and my husband and my kids. And, you know, she talks about aliveness and just how you find it and then just like how you just keep getting curious and not defensive. And I think I would say gratitude, look for the joy.

And then if you are in a place where you can take risk, even if you have a huge expense line and things like this, just look at how long you have to go and then try it. And then no one you're going to stop. And it's going to be okay. Like, it's going to be okay. As my husband always said to me, and I married well, we can always sell our house and go live in this area and earn money this way or that way. And I didn't always believe him. He has more of that mindset than me.

But I think pick your partner well. If you can, pick your partners well, people who help you move through the low moments and anxiety. One foot in front of the other some days. Like when it's hard and you're not feeling the inspiration, just wake up and put one foot in front of the other and wait for the magic to show up and when it does grab it. That's so good. Kara, thank you.

Thank you for coming to the show. Thank you for sharing all of this. Thank you for what you're doing. And this is just beautiful. Thank you. Ilana, thank you for having me on. This was fun. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. If you did, please share it with friends. Now also,

if you're feeling stuck or simply want more from your own career, watch this 30-minute free training at leapacademy.com slash training. That's leapacademy.com slash training. See you in the next episode of the Leap Academy with Ilan and Golan Show.