Leap Academy with Ilana Golan - How to Break Barriers in the Male-Dominated World of Combat Pilots | Michelle Curran

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

Michelle Curran defied the odds to become one of the most accomplished F-16 fighter pilots in the United States Air Force. Despite facing self-doubt, imposter syndrome, and the intense pressure of being the only female Thunderbird pilot, she persevered through sheer grit and determination. In this episode, Michelle opens up about her transformative journey, offering invaluable lessons on leadership, personal growth, and the impact of authentic vulnerability. Michelle Curran, also known by her call sign "Mace," is a former Air Force Thunderbird pilot and combat veteran turned speaker, author, and coach. In 2022, she left active duty to start Upside Down Dreams, aiming to inspire and empower others by sharing her barrier-breaking story. In this episode, Ilana and Michelle will discuss: - Michelle's unexpected path to becoming a Thunderbird pilot - Battling self-doubt and imposter syndrome - How she navigated a male-dominated environment - Balancing decisiveness and vulnerability in high-stakes situations - The immense pressure of being a public figure - Her transition from the military to entrepreneurship - The importance of showing up despite fear and discomfort - How small, bold steps can lead to significant life changes. - The power of vulnerability and asking for help - How to overcome fear and move forward courageously - And other topics…   Michelle Curran is a former United States Air Force major and F-16 fighter pilot who served as the lead solo pilot for the Thunderbirds. She has logged over 1,500 flight hours and completed 163 combat hours in Afghanistan. After leaving the Air Force, she founded Upside Down Dreams, a company focused on motivational speaking and writing. Her children's book, Upside Down Dreams, inspires young readers to pursue their dreams with courage. Michelle's authentic storytelling and message of overcoming fear have made her a sought-after speaker, featured on platforms like The Kelly Clarkson Show and CBS Evening News. Connect with Michelle: Michelle’s Website: https://macecurran.com/  Michelle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/macecurran/  Resources Mentioned: Michelle's Book, Upside Down Dreams: https://www.amazon.com/Upside-Down-Dreams-Michelle-Curran/dp/1637970757 

Michelle Curran, Thunderbird pilot, turn speaker, author, coach, callsign my ace. Michelle, how did you get started? We got a lot to cover just to answer that question. Thanks for having me, first of all. I'm excited to talk, and especially with our overlapping backgrounds. But I kind of stumbled into aviation. I was not in a military family, not in an aviation family. And I grew up in a small town in north-central Wisconsin, about 4,000 people, middle of nowhere.

I just didn't have exposure to that world at all. I was a good student, had good grades. And as I got to be like a junior in high school, my parents were like, we don't have a college fund for you. Let's figure out scholarship opportunities. And the military ended up becoming the way to do that. And so people would be like,

why'd you want to join the military? And I wish it was, I want to serve my country and be part of this bigger thing and have this purpose. But at that age, as a 16, 17-year-old, it was a means to an end to get a scholarship. But then once I got into that environment, I ended up really thriving in that kind of structured, high stakes, high stress environment. And halfway through college, I was a criminal justice major. That's what I actually graduated with. I wanted to go be an FBI agent eventually. But halfway through college,

we visited a base down in Florida and I saw two F-15 fighter jets take off in full afterburner up close. And it was just a jaw dropping, goosebump inducing experience for me. And I was just like, forget the FBI, I want to go do that. And from there was a lot of work that had to happen from deciding that was my dream to actually making it reality. But that was the path as far as joining the military and then becoming a pilot. So you just said that this wasn't in your upbringing, not something that you were aware of. Why this? I mean, the chances of actually making it is so slim. What made Michelle say, let me be, you know, whatever, two out of a zillion people that actually make it, Michelle? I was just thinking about that

recently. I just heard a quote about the odds just recently that made me think, did I even realize how slim the odds were? And I don't think I did. I was young. I was driven. I had a lot of energy. My back didn't hurt yet like it does now. I was just singularly focused on this goal. And I think that enthusiasm and that passion for it made me go after it despite the odds being very much stacked against me like you mentioned. And I don't know if I knew what I know now, if I would have done it or not, but I just did, right? And it was just focusing on one step at a time

and that's what I tell people that reach out now and they're like, I wanna be a fighter pilot, how do I do that? I'm like, don't focus on that as the end, like have that as your motivator, but you really have to do the whole eat the elephant one bite at a time thing because it's so overwhelming otherwise. And you just have to focus on that next thing that's closest that you need to do well on. And just doing that again and again is how I eventually made it there. But

yeah, two people in my class of 25 got fighter aircraft and I mean, others got screened out for medical stuff and never even made it to the class. So it is definitely a journey to actually make it happen. And it's incredible. And I think basically what you said is, I couldn't pay for college. So here I was becoming an F-16 pilot. Tell me a little more about that journey. Was there fear? Was there stress around it? How did your parents take it? Tell me a little more about that. I think my mom found it stressful to have me eventually flying fighter aircraft, but she was pretty good at not telling me that and just saying how proud they were. Once I left the military, she did tell me that she was glad that it was done. But while I was there, she did a good job of doing the stiff upper lip and being like, we're just proud of you.

So I didn't get any pushback from them. If anything, they were like, yeah, go for it. The process to get there, there though is lengthy, right? Like I'm in ROTC, which is one of the ways you can commission as an officer. So I'm doing that at the same time I'm going to college. I graduate with a pilot slot, which was already competitive to get that. I go off to pilot training. I spend two years at that base going through the formal one year of actual pilot training. And then all of these other little add-on trainings that you have to do like survival school and water survival, and then intro to fighter fundamentals, all these things. And that's when I got one of two fighter aircraft

for my class of 25. So that was really the moment where I beat the odds. And then I went off to learn to fly the F-16 for another year after that. And I did okay there. But as you move through these programs, everyone around you gets better. And so you might be the best at the beginning, but you start to find yourself in the middle of the pack because the level and the expectations around you just continue to rise. And I eventually struggled with that a little bit when I finally got to a combat squadron. But that was four years after I had decided that I wanted to become a fighter pilot. So it definitely took a while. How do you fight self-doubt, imposter syndrome? Do these things, do you think they're a little

not as big or paralyzing when we are younger? Or do you think you had some techniques to phase them? What do you think helped you, Michelle? I think initially I was doing well. And so in all of those formal training programs, you're just getting constant feedback. You're being graded on every flight. You know where your flight ranking is. And I was just continuously doing well. I was working my butt off. It wasn't just being handed to me, but I was getting this feedback of how great I was doing in the program. And so that was very motivating and that kept that self-doubt from sneaking in. But what I found later is I got to my first combat squadron in Japan and I felt like I had put in so much work and learned so many things. And then I get to an actual

operational squadron and I realized that that was just the tip of the iceberg. And as far as tactics, I know nothing. And I struggled there for a while because it was just so complicated. And especially coming from being a criminal justice major, everything was just new to me. And that's where I started to really struggle with self-doubt. So I don't think it was around being young or inexperienced. It was more about my identity being wrapped up in being a high achiever. And when that label started to waver, I kind of had an identity crisis.

And I was like, what am I doing? I'm not good enough to be here. Somehow I snuck through all of these programs. It's classic imposter syndrome. I was certain that all of my peers that were around classic imposter syndrome. I was certain that all of my peers that were around the same experience level as I was, were so much more knowledgeable and so much more sure of themselves than I was. And I know now, I've talked to them since then, that that was not the case. I was probably very average as a young wingman. But in my mind, I was just barely

crawling along by my fingernails and probably struggled for the first two and a half years feeling that way. And I actually had points where I would have walked away, even though that was my dream. And I had fought so hard to get there, where if I wasn't in a contract with the Air Force and didn't feel like there was some other option that wouldn't have been super shameful to choose instead of what I was doing, I would have pivoted because I felt so overwhelmed. I can relate to that, but share a little bit, maybe one of those hard moments that you need to, despite the fear, despite the, am I good enough to get back up and go on that flight or do the test or, you know, like still show up.

Yeah. And I think that's the antidote. That's the thing that keeps you making progress and eventually builds your confidence is to just keep taking action. Even those days where I was really nervous about a flight, where I was flying with an instructor that I was intimidated by, or I didn't feel as prepared as I wished I was, just showing up and pushing through that discomfort and going and doing the thing, a lot of times, it would actually go better than I had expected. And each time that happened, I proved to myself just a little bit more that I actually was capable. And so that tiny building block, one at at a time took a long time, several

years, like I said, but it eventually gave me a really strong foundation of not just believing in myself and confidence, but more believing that, hey, even if stuff doesn't go perfectly and does go wrong, I can persevere through that. I'm strong enough to deal with it. And I think the only way to really get to that point is to experience setbacks and just realize that you are capable of overcoming them. So it can be uncomfortable in the moment, but that's really where you have to put in the work. And that is key, Michelle.

And I hope all of you're listening to this because the challenges will always be there, but the suffering is a choice. And when you continue showing up, continue getting back up, continuing trying different things, you're always ahead of the game, right? And for you, Michelle, again, but you were in a male dominant environment. There was a lot of fear was flying. It gets speedy over there. I don't know if you felt sick to your stomach. I did. So there's also physical things that you need to go through.

How do you show up? Yeah, luckily I didn't deal with the sickness airborne. But as you know, F-16 is high G-forces. You're pulling nine times the force of gravity. So whether you're dealing with nausea or not, that is a serious stress on your body. And one of the things that happened to me when I was in Japan in those first few weeks of being in my new squadron is I had a near G-lock, which G-induced loss of consciousness. I know you know that, but for your listeners,

that's almost going unconscious from the G-forces, from the blood being pushed out of your head by the force of turning that aircraft at high speeds. And for me, I think I had been a little bit naive. Like I had kind of had this idea of what a fighter pilot was and what the job entailed. And as much as society does, I think I glamorized it a little bit. And having that near G-lock where I had complete light loss, so I couldn't see anything. I had blackout essentially as far as vision goes, but I could still hear and I was still aware of what was happening in the jet. So about as close as you can get without being unconscious. And then when we went and debriefed that after the flight and my instructor watched the recordings from my cockpit, listened to the sound of me straining against the Gs and

how it was getting sloppy and I was starting to get tired. And he was like, are you having light loss there? And then I told him where I was at. And he literally said to me, like, if you continue to do it like that, you're going to kill yourself. And I mean, other F-16 pilots have crashed because of G-locks. People have lost their lives. So it's not to be taken lightly. And I think at the age I was at, I just didn't quite understand how serious of a business I was in until that moment. And so that was that point where I was struggling and feeling like I didn't have the skills yet, along with being like, holy crap, people die in this environment when they make mistakes. And that was for sure a wake-up call, even though I knew that on paper. But

conceptually knowing it and then having experience are two different things. And then you layer in the gender thing that you mentioned, being one of two women in a squadron of 50 pilots and being new and feeling like I needed to establish my reputation and my credibility. I was just constantly walking this line of trying to figure out what I would be okay with and what I would push back on. And was it okay if I laughed at a joke that was inappropriate? Was I doing women that would follow my footsteps a disservice? If I did, why was I responsible for establishing what was acceptable in the squadron? Like if someone said a dirty joke, everyone would turn and look at me and wait for my reaction. So I felt this extra

burden of how I react will literally determine the culture of this unit. You know, and I'm 24 years old and I'm the youngest in the squadron. That's not my job, but it was. And so there's just so many different pressures from so many different directions. And the physical demands of the aircraft is for sure part of it. Being a woman in a male-dominated career field is for sure part of it. Being young and new and feeling like an imposter is for sure part of it. And when you add those all together, it felt debilitating for a while. How do you take that balance between vulnerability and basically showing up as a badass? How do you put that balance? Because

I think you're constantly on that balance. Yeah. And it can be hard to find, right? And there are moments when you have to be decisive. You can't let insecurity or questioning yourself make you hesitate in the aircraft. In that environment, you have to be decisive. You have to do the job that can have serious consequences if you don't. But then you have the other side of that where you do have to be humble and you do have to be vulnerable and you do have to take feedback. And figuring out the time and the place for each was just a learning process. And I think people want a lot of times, especially when they're looking for motivational or inspirational kind of advice, they want a black and white. Like You should always show up like this. But life exists

in the gray areas. And some of that you have to just feel out and find what works when. But what I did find eventually is that showing up authentically as myself and being willing to let people know when I needed help and be vulnerable with those around me to find mentors and ask questions and seek out experts when I felt like I didn't know the answer. Once I realized that doing that was actually not a sign of weakness, that's when my confidence and my skills really started to grow. And that's what eventually led me to apply for the Thunderbirds because three, four years before I did, I would have said there was zero chance that I would ever, ever do that

because I didn't think I was good enough to do that job. And while I was in Japan, going through that near G-lock, going through all that imposter syndrome, one of my ways of coping was to put this wall up and pretend that I had it all together, that I knew what I was doing, that I could do it all on my own,

that I essentially felt like I had to prove myself all the time. And so despite there being great people in that squadron who would have mentored me, who would have spent extra time helping me with the tactical areas that I was struggling with, they did not know I even needed help. Because if they came to me and asked, hey, Mace, how are you doing? What do you need? I would say I was fine. No matter how much I was struggling, I would say I was fine because I didn't feel like I could show weakness in that environment. And I think what you just shared is incredibly important. Even in leadership, we see it in corporate, we see it in entrepreneurship, we see it in a lot of

environments. There's a lot of leaders that are not really sure how to be leaders. So they're trying to become someone they're not. And they're always pretending that everything is okay. They're pretending like there's somebody they're not. And it's only when you actually start being more in peace with yourself, being willing to ask the hard questions, being able to ask for help, and only when you're really in peace with yourself is actually when you're becoming a great leader. And it sounds like you somehow learned it on your own. And that opened a whole new paradigm for you with the Thunderbirds. So share a little bit about some of those decisions that you needed to go through. Applying to the Thunderbirds was something that always intrigued me. It was that

thing that I would get excited about when I would hear people bring it up or see an email come in that they were hiring. But every time I would get this kind of anxious feeling like, oh, that's something I think I want, but I'm not going to tell anyone about it because I don't believe in myself enough to actually apply. And to get from the point of feeling like that and really struggling during that first assignment to the point where I actually had the courage to apply and then went on to fly there for three years and do what I'm doing now, a lot of growth had to happen. And that didn't just organically happen. I kind of had to make some decisions to make it happen.

And one of those was I moved, thanks to the military, to Texas to my next combat squadron. And every time you get forced to a new squadron, you're in a new city, all of a sudden you have new friends, you're in a new house, you're in a new unit. There's some challenges that come with that, but it's also an opportunity to decide intentionally how you want to show up and how you want to be known. And I had a lot of struggle coming from Japan. And I made a conscious decision that I wasn't going to wallow in that and feel like that was going to follow me to Texas, that I was going to reflect on it and be like, okay, what do I want to change about my experience? And what do I need to do to make that a reality? And that move just really gave me that opportunity.

It came at the perfect time. and I just realized that I had been just making all these decisions fear-based and mostly fear of failure and fear of judgment from others because I did feel like I was under a microscope and I had really shied away from opportunities that would have been good for me as a pilot and an officer and just growing me as a person

because they came with risk and they came with a chance of failure. And that was so scary to me in that environment that I just avoided it like the plague. And now I get to Texas and I realized that I'm going to have to start putting myself out there and doing some of those uncomfortable things if I want to be in the spot where I feel like I'm achieving my actual potential and I feel content and I feel like I'm showing up as myself. And I think just recognizing that and getting that perspective was really the first big green light that I got that started to make progress. And then as I

intentionally recognized that, I was able to identify when those opportunities were happening and when I was having that feeling of fear and risk aversion around them and be like, okay, hold on. Your gut is being like, don't do that. That's scary. But what do you actually want? And what decision will actually serve your goals? And so I was able to put myself out there again and again, even when it felt uncomfortable. And over time, I would say over maybe like an 18-month period of doing that very intentionally, I was like a completely different person. My confidence grew so much. My skills in the aircraft grew with that. My friend group grew, and I really had, I think really for the first time, deep authentic relationships with people,

both in and out of my unit. And I was so happy and so content. And I just never felt that way really in my adult life. And doing that and making that decision and having the courage to make a small, bold change, a small, bold decision really just built that confidence over time. And it took a while, but there's no quick fix, right? You can't just flip the switch and be like, okay, now I'm confident and I'm bold and I'm just going to start doing the thing. So I had to start small, but it really did pay off over time. And that's what eventually gave me the courage to say yes to the Thunderbird application, which has completely changed everything. One of the things that people don't realize is that those small imperfect steps that you do every single day, they're the ones that eventually

changed your lifetime, right? It's not necessarily this one thing. But what I also love about what you just shared is how you took a new environment, which some people will say that is uncomfortable to keep changing your environment. And on the other hand, you took it as an incredible opportunity to define the narrative, define what you want to be known for, to define who you want to become. And again, you learn how to make that comfortable or the uncomfortable comfortable, right? And to just reinvent yourself there. But to me also, one of the things that is

really fundamental in what you just said, when you start making decisions based on hope and dreams and your goals versus the fear and doubt, your life changes. But share with us, why is the Thunderbirds such a pivotal moment and what changed with it? I think applying to the Thunderbirds in the first place just felt like this huge leap of faith. Like it felt so uncomfortable and the interview process felt so uncomfortable

and intimidating and to go through it and then to actually get chosen, you know, that was again, proving to myself that I actually was capable of more than I believed. And that was a big one, right? And so I don't want people to think though that that happened. And I was just a really confident Thunderbird pilot showed up on day one. I again, found myself feeling like an imposter. I was more equipped really confident Thunderbird pilot and showed up on day one. I again found myself feeling like an imposter. I was more equipped to deal with it than I was as a new fighter pilot. And I think I dealt with it fine

as far as the flying skill. Like there was so much to learn flying formation and flying upside down close to the ground. And that is just not the type of flying we normally do in a tactical squadron. And so you almost feel like a beginner again. I think I knew to expect that. And I was like, okay, I'm going to go through this with a completely different mindset than I did when I was a brand new fighter pilot.

But the part that I still struggled with was now I'm a public figure. And again, being so few women flying fighters, I was the only female pilot for the Thunderbirds during the entire time I was there. And the fourth one to fly for the demo. And the team was around for almost 70 years at that point. So I immediately became under the microscope again. And now it's just not my peers around me. It's the American people and it's social media and it's news outlets. And so it was this huge opportunity that ended up setting me up to go be a speaker and an author. But it also felt like if I made the tiniest mistake, everyone was going to latch onto that in a different way than they did for my peers. And it also felt like there was an immense pressure on me to be this perfect

role model for girls, young girls and for women. And I compare it to being like a Disney princess, right? Like if you're dressed up as Cinderella at Disney World, you cannot have a bad day. You cannot have an off day because that little five-year-old girl that's coming up to meet you and that's what she's been dreaming of in this one interaction of 90 seconds

is the only time she's going to get to do that. That might be the 100th time you've had that interaction that day. And it can be very exhausting to be on and be outgoing and be charismatic and take photos and do all those things. But you have this internal contradiction because you feel so lucky and honored to be in that position that you feel like you can't ever say that it's hard. But it is hard. It is hard to be on all the time. And I did struggle with that. And again, feeling like I could show up authentically

and find my identity when there's all these expectations of other people. Social media adds another layer to that because you have all these keyboard warriors with their opinions that can reach out to you directly. And it's just crazy, but it did open so many doors. It continued to build my confidence. There were many uncomfortable moments.

There were many extremely rewarding moments. And it really helped me find my next chapter and my passion of being that role model and inspiring other people. And despite that being really difficult, it became the thing that I found the most rewarding out of that entire job. The flying kind of became secondary.

And that was what fueled me to go do what I do now. So that one assignment, having the courage to apply for it, getting hired for it, going through those three years, that sent me on a completely different trajectory than I would have had otherwise, right? I would probably either be flying for the airlines or still be in the Air Force. And I've only been doing this for two years. Who knows what's about to happen still? Who knows what the next 10 years look like? So many things will happen that would have never been possible

had I not applied to that team. It's just such a good example of taking a leap of faith, doing something that you really are excited about, but it feels uncomfortable pushing through that and all the things that can happen because of it. One of the things that at least I realize personally is that you really need to start creating an extra layer of thick skin

because there's always gonna be the people that are very inspired by you and they'll have ample of great things, but there's also gonna be the naysayers and people that always find something negative to say. How do you create that extra layer of thick skin, Michelle? I did not do it well at first, I'll be honest. You could ask my husband. I would get very, I think, angry when people would say something that I felt was so unjustified or so incorrect.

And it didn't happen often where I would get people that would take it to just an extreme level of hateful comments. But it happened a few times and I would let it ruin my mood. I would have it happen. I would be so angry. I would vent to my husband and then I would get busy with something else. And all of a sudden I would be like, why do I feel this anger? Why do I feel this nausea in my stomach of something's off? And then I would remember what it was. And it was that one stupid negative comment. And I hated that I was letting this person that they have no bearing on my life, that I was letting their opinion, their 30 seconds that they took to type something mean on the internet, I was letting it impact me.

How dare they, right? And the only way that I can stop that is how I choose to respond to it. And so initially I would get mad. I would be tempted to respond with some scathing actual to respond to it. And so initially I would get mad. I would be tempted to respond with some scathing actual type back to them, you know, actual response. That never ended well. And so it took a very conscious effort

of recognizing that we as humans have a negativity bias and that we will dwell on negative things even when there's so much positive evidence and making a rule for myself that I was just going to delete, block, will dwell on negative things, even when there's so much positive evidence, and making a rule for myself that I was just going to delete, block, and just shut that door, and not let it percolate through the rest of the day, the rest of the week. And that instead, I was going to think about all the amazing feedback that I had gotten, because there was always 100 times more of that than there was negative,

but I would be dwelling on the one negative thing. And so it took a very conscious effort. And depending what it is, I still will get a little angry occasionally about it, but I think I'm much better now about just having that minute or two of being like, who does this person think they are? That's not even true, blah, blah, blah. And then just be like, okay, if I dwell on this for any longer, they're winning. They should not be impacting my day. So now I'm better at closing that door, compartmentalizing that, setting it aside and being like, what about that really amazing book review I got about this three-year-old girl that has my children's book memorized, even though she can't read yet because she requested every single night for the last two months. Why don't I think about that? It's hard.

I'm not going to lie. It is hard to deal with the trolls online. And it's one of the prices you pay for putting yourself out there and being a public figure. But the rewards far outweigh it. The positive reach far outweighs the negative. We're so good at leaning on the one negative thing when we actually have a pile of hundreds of amazing things. But you see it when somebody gets a rejection, when somebody faces failures. We see it with every person that every driven individual. And one of the things that we talk to our clients about is how there's always going to be failures. There's always going to be the rejection.

The problem is, what do you make it mean? And if you take it down, you know, and you're willing to go down with it, again, we're an incredible meaning making machine. If this one thing derails everything that we do, that's a really hefty price that we're paying. So everything you said just resonates really well with a lot of the people because that's life, really. It is.

And I think there's a lot of things that we learn in high-performance aircraft that you can take into the rest of the world that can help with that. Because you think about an emergency in the jet, and your primal instinct is to have that adrenaline rush. And that can lead to that fight-or-flight feeling and not making the right decisions and letting your emotions and your fear derail you. And you're taught very early on that you have to compartmentalize, you have to pause for a second. And I know in our community, and you've probably heard it as well, they will say that slower is faster. Or they'll say wind the clock, the old school wind up clock

in the F-16 that's down by your right knee that no one actually uses anymore. And those things come from people making a knee-jerk reaction when something's going wrong before they have all the information and actually making the problem worse. And so you're taught to maintain aircraft control. That's the first thing to do. Even if you have something seriously wrong with the aircraft, maintain aircraft control so that you don't get glommed onto a gauge that's malfunctioning and fly your jet into the ground. And so I think there's a lot of analogies there that you can take into business or into life where when something bad happens, when something unexpected happens, pause for a second, take a breath, maintain your priorities

so you make sure you're not making things worse, gather some information, and then choose how you're going to respond rather than just reacting in the moment. And that's true whether you're in traffic and someone cuts you off and you have that initial reaction to go tailgate them and turn it into a road rage incident or an argument with your spouse

or losing funding for your startup. You can use that same methodology and that really sets you up for success and it gives you the time to just make that decision that's actually going to serve your end goal. And I think that's just so important, whether it's in the cockpit or out. And I love that you said that because again, when you create instincts based on just the stress, you will make the wrong decisions. If you, like you said, slow down for a second, let's prioritize, let's assess. You used to laugh in the F-16, you know, for every emergency, you reset for a second.

There's like, we had a little bit of jokes there, but there's like a little bit of, yes, let's slow down for a second to actually find the right thing and to make sure that we look at the right system and we experiment with the right system, et cetera. But there is a big difference from the military to eventually entrepreneurship. There's a lot of similarities, and I totally agree. We're facing fears, doubt, imposter, decisions, like all the things we talked about. And then entrepreneurship is still very unknown, very scary environment. Tell us a little bit about that move

because that's not an easy move as well. No, and I think one of my favorite things about it is also one of the hardest things about it. I was driven to make that move for a few reasons. My body was really beat up from pulling 9Gs for so long. I was having a lot of back and neck pain, as many fighter pilots do. I had met my husband when I moved

for my Thunderbird assignment to Las Vegas, and we had gotten married, and now I had a stepson, and they're very established in Las Vegas, so I wasn't really excited to be moving every few years because I knew that wasn't going to be practical for them. And then the third reason, and I think honestly the biggest one, was that I found this passion for using my story

and my own struggles to help other people get through theirs and seeing them go do big things that they didn't think they could do or seeing them push through the discomfort and push through the fear because I was willing to be vulnerable with them, that was just so incredibly rewarding that I couldn't imagine not doing it anymore. And I was like, I need to figure out a way to do this on the outside.

And I think speaking kind of just filtered to the top because I was getting requests to speak while I was still on active duty and I couldn't do them at that point. And I was like, wait, this is an opportunity for me to tell my story and use it to really impact others in a big way. And with that move though, there is no playbook, right? And I thrived in the military environment of here's the flight that you have to do. Here's your objectives. Here's your mission. Here's the risk. here are the other players on the bad guy side, here's what you have on your side. It's very challenging and high stakes, but it's very regimented.

It's very laid out. There are rules, there are regulations, there's a process for everything. Now to become a solo entrepreneur initially, where I am like Googling, how do I get a business license? QuickBooks, how the heck do I pay quarterly taxes? I didn't even know what I didn't know. And there was no rule book other than the

taxes part. And there was a lot of just trial and error. And what I found that was that showing up in a way that felt authentic to me when I gave my very first speech, I booked it before I had a speech written. I was like, okay, someone's about to pay me to speak for the first time. I need to nail this. And I sat down and I was like, I could show cool jet videos. I could talk about excellence and high performance and they would be satisfied. But what in my career did I struggle with the most? What points did I feel like I was on the floor, like giving up? And I started to write about those.

I sat down and wrote a script and it felt so cathartic to me to share that stuff because I'd never told anyone about any of that. And all the way from that first assignment, that near G-lock, the transformation I went through when I went to Texas, getting to the Thunderbirds and struggling with feeling like I wasn't the ideal Thunderbird, like I couldn't be this public

persona that everyone wanted me to be. Sharing all of that in a way where it was so relatable, because it was framed through my lens of experience, which was unique with the fighter pilot background, the Thunderbird background, but it was just the most relatable human problems that everyone struggles with. And so doing that felt so good and so authentic and I still love that part of it. And so it's that freedom of creative expression where I just get to be me and I just get to tell my story without hiding anything,

without anyone else's talking points. But what comes with that is there is no script and there is no playbook. And so you never know if you're quite doing it right. And you never know if you're quite missing out on opportunities because you made one decision or you didn't make another decision. And so it's a little bit of balance in there. And it's moments of extreme excitement and just feeling like you're on top of the world

mixed in with moments of uncertainty and fear. And I think every entrepreneur can probably relate to that roller coaster. Oh, heck yes. First of uncertainty and fear. And I think every entrepreneur can probably relate to that rollercoaster. Oh, heck yes. First of all, absolutely. And that vulnerability is also what got you that trust. And that trust is probably a lot of it is what you bring with you because in the military,

you better trust your peers for many, many days, right? So it's pretty clear that you're bringing that with you. And then when you are on stage and you're sharing these incredible stories, you get the trust of others. And that's why you're able to get and land more speaking opportunities and grow this thing. But to me, a lot of it is that trust of Michelle gets me. Am I right? Yeah. The connection with the audience is everything. And when I look out at people and I'm telling a story about how I was really struggling and I see people tearing up, and then 10 minutes later when I see them bending over laughing because I'm

telling a different story and they're just so entertained by it, and we can go through those highs and lows together over 30 minutes to an hour. And then especially when individuals come up afterwards and they say, I don't know how you knew, but that was exactly what I needed to hear today. Or I feel like you wrote that speech just for me. I felt you were talking straight to me and no one else was in the room. That connection is why I love doing what I'm doing and it's why the audience has good things to say about my speaking. It's why I get booked for

things. And I've realized when I talk to other speakers, you can have all the amazing graphics and you can have all of the amazing teaching points, but if you don't connect with the audience on an emotional level, they're not going to remember you. And they're not going to take what you've taught them and do anything with it. And it's also just not as fulfilling on the stage if you aren't connecting. I love that. And the connection does come with challenges many, many times. So when you are open about those challenges, that's where you catch them. That's what you meet them where they are and you take them higher. I love that. And then you have also two children's books, right? One that was just released. So Upside Down Dreams and the one that was just released, right? What's your call sign? Tell us a little bit about that desire to

write for children and where's your mission there, Michelle? Yeah, I think this is a really great story because it was a journey. I was with the Thunderbirds for the first year, so 2019. Early on in that show season, we went to the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. We did an event there where we signed autographs. I was in my show suit. While I was there, I went into their bookstore, which has all kinds of incredible stuff. It's just great, full of aviation and space, stuff that you can buy everything from apparel to books. While I was looking at the kids' books, I saw that there weren't really any that had a female protagonist that was going to be relatable to little girls. There were a few historical ones for like Amelia Earhart, which of course can be

an interesting story to kids, but I don't think they see themselves in that because it's so removed at this point. And so that day I literally told my friend who was on the Thunderbirds with me, I was like, I want to write a kid's picture book about a little girl that wants to be a fighter pilot. Not just a pilot, but a fighter pilot because there was nothing like that. And so again, much like me deciding

I wanted to become a fighter pilot, deciding that I wanted to do the thing and then actually making the thing happen were two very different things. And so during the pandemic, when a lot of our air shows got canceled, I had a little bit more free time on my hands. And so I sat down and wrote the manuscript, worked with some friends to edit it, felt like it was in a pretty good spot. I did not have an illustrator, though I didn't even know how to find an illustrator.

Did some research and I was like, okay, I'm going to pitch to literary agents. That's what happens next. So I go on Publishers Marketplace and I find the top 15 children's literary agents in the country. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to send them all queries. I had no idea how the industry worked and that that was dang near impossible that I was gonna get any response from them not being an established author. And so I just got all of these no responses or a few polite no's. I was like, okay, well, now what do I do? And meanwhile, air shows are starting back up.

So I'm getting very busy again because we would be on the road 240 days a year. We did 35 different air shows in one season. It's so busy. And so it kind of just went, sat on my desktop in a folder labeled children's book and just sat there for a while. Then I eventually made the decision to leave

and start speaking. And right around the time I was transitioning out of the Air Force, and I had my first speech booked, but I hadn't given it yet. Someone connected with me on LinkedIn and she was a ghostwriter. And she was reaching out to ask my first speech book, but I hadn't given it yet. Someone connected with me on LinkedIn, and she was a ghostwriter, and she was reaching out to ask if I wanted to work with her on a memoir or a personal development book. I told her I wasn't ready to do that yet,

but I'd written this children's book manuscript, and I just didn't know what to do with it, but I wanted to get across the finish line. She happened to know my now publisher connected me on a meeting with her, didn't even have an agent involved at all. And we signed paperwork like the next week. They're like, we love this story. This is going to impact kids. They're going to see Phoenix and see someone that looks like them in that role. And I just wanted my book to be another form of that. So it came out about a year ago. The reviews have been amazing. The anecdotes I get from parents are just incredible. And I really loved having those interactions with kids when I was in the uniform. And primarily doing corporate speaking, I don't get to do that anymore. And so the book came from that initial experience at the Smithsonian, but it also became a way for me

to continue to have those inspirational interactions with kids, which also motivates me. And so there'll actually be three books in the series. So book two just came out, What's Your Call Sign? And then the next one will be around this time next year. So that one decision again at the museum, in the bookstore, being like, I want to write a book about a little girl that wants to be a fighter pilot. And then not just having that fleeting moment of inspiration and letting it go, but deciding

that I was going to figure out how to make that actually a reality. It opened up the door to three books, you know? And into my third year of speaking, I'll have three books published, which I just never imagined. And it's just opened up the door for all kinds of cool opportunities. And it's really fun.

It's a passion project. Yeah, so it's just another great example of how you just got to start. Go figure it out as you go. And that's what I tell people when I speak. You have to believe in yourself enough to start even when you don't feel ready. And you have to just figure it out as you go. If you wait till you feel ready, you're not

going to ever do it. So by definition, you're never going to be ready. And the difference is whether you're willing to take action or you just want to think about it, dream about it, procrastinate and just sit on it. And sadly, you know, we have kind of a sad joke that the richest place on earth is the graveyard because that's where a lot of the ideas are. That's where a lot of the book ideas and the tech ideas and the startup ideas and people are taking them with them instead of taking action. And I just love that you're taking action and that's just beautiful to see. And that's why who you are.

But share with us, we have a little bit of a tradition in the podcast where you take a look at your younger self and give some advice that you wish somebody would have told you. What is it for you, Michelle? I love this question and I kind of mentioned it a little bit. I think back to the hardest point in my life,

which was that first combat squadron assignment. And there was a lot happening in my life at that point that first combat squadron assignment. And there was a lot happening in my life at that point. I also went through a divorce then. So you add on the struggles professionally, living in Japan on the other side of the world from my support network, trying to find my identity, feeling like an imposter, and then going through a divorce, which honestly felt like the first time I had really, really failed in my life in just a huge way. And I felt a lot of embarrassment and shame around that. And I felt like everyone in my squadron would think less of me because of it. And I realize now that that was not the case at all. But all of that at once, I was in a point where I was most definitely dealing

with situational depression. The military has gotten better about mental health issues and talking about them. But at that point, that would have been a huge sign of weakness in my eyes to tell anyone about that. So I just was struggling alone. So when I think about that, I'm like, okay, what could have been said to me that would have changed things? What could I have done that would have changed things? And I think it comes down to that willingness to be vulnerable, to admit when you don't have all the answers, to admit when you need help. And if I had had the courage, I could even tell you exactly who I would have gone to because they were there. They were trying

to support me, but I had walls up. If I had been willing to go to those people and be like, look, this is how I'm feeling. This is what I'm dealing with. I think I would have gotten through that so much quicker. I would have felt so much more supported. It wouldn't have spiraled as far as it did. And those people would have been honored to help me. It would not have been a burden. At the time, I felt like it would have been a burden. I think they would have felt grateful that I came to them and trusted them enough to be vulnerable with them. But I was just so overwhelmed by this feeling of needing to not show weakness that I just did it all alone.

And asking for help is probably one of the hardest things for people who are kind of high achievers, right? Because it is vulnerable. Absolutely. It's tough. Yeah. So anything else that you want to share with our audience? To me, this was really an inspiring conversation. I love your story. Thank you. And thank you for the opportunity

to share it. And especially with you having experienced so many of the things I'm talking about, it's just really fun because you get it, you can relate. And I'm sure your audience has heard little bits and pieces of that over your interviews. And so they probably already have some sort of baseline knowledge. I think that it's really just the theme that's run throughout of that piece of courage. I would get told a lot while I was flying for the Thunderbirds, you're so brave. I could never do that. I don't know how you're so brave and so courageous. And I never viewed myself that way. I felt afraid a lot. I felt uncomfortable a lot. I felt nervous a lot in the jet and out. And I think the key to my success was that I didn't let that stop me. Fear and courage,

they're interwoven. You don't have just one or the other if you're finding success. You are still just moving forward despite the fear. That's where the courage comes in. And so fear was not absent. I was just able to use it to motivate me. I was able to use it to motivate me to be prepared, to put in the work. And it led to just such amazing rewards. You just cannot let it paralyze you. That's where the problem comes in.

Ooh, that's so strong. And this is for just a beautiful reminder to all of you. If you continue when most others stop, this is where you live a life that most will only dream of. And just continue. Just don't give up. Michelle, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for having me.

This is amazing. I can't wait to hear how it's received. And hopefully someone listens to this and is like, that interview was done just for me. That was exactly what I needed to hear today. Absolutely. And you guys going to reach out to Michelle and let her know. Thank you, Michelle.