Leap Academy with Ilana Golan - Lovesac Founder Shawn Nelson: The Entrepreneurial Mindset That Built a Billion-Dollar Brand | EP168

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

At 18 years old, Shawn Nelson had a crazy idea: build a beanbag so massive it could fill an entire room. That idea eventually became Lovesac, a publicly traded furniture company and major consumer brand. In this episode, Shawn joins Ilana to share the real journey behind building Lovesac, from taking risks and learning as he went to winning Richard Branson’s The Rebel Billionaire and leading a company at scale. They also dive into what failure teaches us, why success never means you’ve “arrived,” how Shawn gets through the hardest days, and why his philosophy is to maintain top ambition with infinite patience. Chapters 00:00 – Introduction 04:06 – The Idea That Started Lovesac 07:10 – Stop Talking and Start Doing 13:24 – Big Vision, Flexible Execution 17:57 – Risk, Debt & the Fear of Failure 22:36 – Winning Richard Branson’s The Rebel Billionaire 29:11 – Lessons From Richard Branson & Virgin 32:07 – Why You Never Really “Arrive” 40:38 – What Failure Teaches You About Success 43:56 – Taking Lovesac Public & Leading at Scale 50:35 – How Shawn Gets Through the Hard Days 54:16 – The Reality of Entrepreneurship 56:24 – Building Your Career Safety Net & Personal Brand 1:00:59 – Lessons Shawn Wishes He Knew Earlier 1:03:27 – Top Ambition, Infinite Patience 1:05:30 – Redefining What Success Really Means 1:07:58 – Finding Your Personal “Why” 1:09:03 – The Truth Behind the Highlight Reel About Shawn Nelson Shawn Nelson is the founder and CEO of Lovesac, the publicly traded furniture company he started at just 18 years old. He is an entrepreneur, inventor, and winner of Richard Branson’s The Rebel Billionaire. Shawn is also the author of Let Me Save You 25 Years: Mistakes, Miracles, and Lessons from the Lovesac Story, where he shares lessons from more than two decades of building, nearly losing, and ultimately growing Lovesac into the brand it is today. Connect with Shawn Lovesac: Lovesac.com Book & Podcast: Let Me Save You 25 Years Social: @ShawnOfLovesac Leap Academy Ready to make the LEAP in your career? There is a new way for professionals to fast-track their careers and leap into bigger opportunities. Get started with Ilana’s free career training at leapacademy.com/training. 📲 Connect with Ilana: Facebook ▶️ https://www.facebook.com/IlanaGolanLeapAcademy LinkedIn ▶️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/ilanagolan/ Instagram ▶️ https://www.instagram.com/ilanagolanleap Website ▶️ https://www.leapacademy.com/

I didn't really think of myself as an entrepreneur. It wasn't my path. My mom walks by and she looks at me and says, is this what you want to do? And I look up at her with scissors in my hand, you know. I said, I don't know. I said, I just feel like I should keep going. It was just a side hustle in college.

I was waiting tables to pay my way through school because it didn't make any money. It took my money. Did you think of giving up? Where was that taking you? I considered giving up a thousand times. I didn't know if my business was going to survive another 90 days. You don't really have like a business plan, right?

Like, how do you get started? Just do the next thing. You don't have to go make every mistake. You will. You'll make tons. But you could avoid a few by learning from mine or from yours. You're going to need to raise more money than you ever imagine. It's disgusting.

You're going to make mistakes that will cost you millions. Entrepreneurs are, by definition, intuitive beings. If you feel like you should keep going, you keep going. And in my case, that led me to... Hey, I have a... a favor to ask. I decided not to put any ads on the show because I don't want to vouch for things or products I don't really, really believe in. But in order for us to continue to bring these amazing guests, all I'm asking is if that's okay, just click

that like, subscribe, download button. Those mean to us more than you can think. So is that a good deal? Let's dive in. In 1995, an 18-year-old Sean Nelson was sitting on his parents' couch, bored, and watching the price is right. He had an idea that it would be hilarious to have a beanbag so massive that it filled the entire floor between him and the TV. Now, most would just laugh and move on, but Sean started working on what eventually becomes Love Sack, a publicly traded billion-dollar furniture empire that completely redefined couches and so much more.

And he's also the CEO, author and host of Let Me Save You 25 years. Heck yes, let's go. Podcast and book describing this entire entrepreneurial roller coaster, endless lessons. Can't wait to dive in, Sean. It's going to be so fun. Cool. Thanks for having me. Who is Sean before 18?

Like, who is the guy? Like, why would you, like, start a beanbag? I sometimes am asked, you know, did I have fruit stands and lemonade stands and was an entrepreneur from young age? maybe, you know, a few things here and there. I used to pick all the cherries off my neighbor's cherry trees all around who weren't using them and go sell them to the catering kitchen and, you know, whatever. So I guess a little bit. But I didn't really think of myself as an entrepreneur.

It wasn't my path. I think young people today are raised in a world where they even know what that is. I don't even think I heard that word. I don't think the word existed, really. I don't know what it was. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. but I was impulsive.

And for better for worse, you know, I was always one, I think my aunts and uncles called me the instigator and not in a loving way, you know, like family events, cousins next thing you know, were putting firecrackers and peaches and lobbing them over the fence and traffic, whatever, you know, like not always a good thing, but. Troublemaker, a little bit. Yeah, maybe.

So I had this idea one day. And I turned off the TV, drove down to Joanne's fabrics, bought some fabric, brought it home, rolled it out, cut it out, began sewing it. Began sewing it. Wait, stop, stop, stop. Stop, stop. Does everybody's like, what is going on with Sean at that point? Or is this like, oh, it's another one of Sean's weird? Like, what is going on? I don't even think anyone knew I was doing it. My parents were busy running here and there, and I just did this. And I think in hindsight, I didn't think anything of it. But now upon reflection, I've always been a doer, you know, like not a talker as well, but also a doer. And I think, you know, I open my book this way. So the book, let me say, for 25 years, 25 lessons learned from all of Love Sacks mistakes

and miracles and all of these lessons along the way. And so the first Seanism of 25 in the book paired with this little story was just do something. you know, stop talking about it and just do it. And in my case, had I not gotten off the couch, bought the fabric, done all that, sewed it up, stuffed it. It took me three weeks to put stuff in it. I thought it'd be a beanbag, but couldn't buy enough beanbag beats. So packing peanuts, old blankets, but those camping mattresses, you know,

a rolled-up piece of foam with a bungee cordor act, cut up into little squares on a paper cutter, three weeks of chopping this stuff up and had this thing full. And now, instead of even being a beanbag, it was like a giant, pillow and you jump on it just suck you in and people everywhere I took it everyone loves it and so that's really what propelled love sack to become a business my neighbor kept seeing it drive up and down the street in the back of a truck because it would fill the back of a truck it was that big and they wanted one and eventually three years later I made them one so it was never an attempt to build the business even after I started the business to sell them one I needed a name love peace hate war hippie bag

Love bag, love sack. That's cool. 25 bucks to register the name. I had a business. But even then, it was just a side hustle in college. I was waiting tables to pay my way through school because it didn't make any money this little bit. It took my money.

You know, the van would break, the need more fabric, the shredder would break, all the things that go wrong. So at that point, basically, you're driving with this big bag. What do you do with it? Where do you take it? Camping, the beach. you know, just driving movies. It just took it out because to be weird.

And people just would always be like, oh, my gosh, you know, like, where did you get that? Make me one? I was like, no, it was terrible. I won't. Never make another one. But eventually finally did. Okay. So then, you know, like in, I think 95, 98, right?

You spend quite a few years selling bin bags, but you don't really have like a business plan, right? Like, how do you get started? Like, what is that path? Sean is number two in the book. Just do the next thing. And I know that sounds so dumb. But I knew nothing. And I knew nothing about an example from the, you know, insurance till the guy helping me,

stuff sacks, chop the tip of his finger off and went to the hospital. Actually, let's go that. Let's go to that. I mean, that's a little later. But let's go to that. Because there's a moment, right, you described. it. And by the way you call it, it's very chilling in your book. And you basically say it's your fault, right? It's basically like, so talk to me about that day. Because again, until then,

like I feel like doing bin bags became kind of maybe a business, but not, you didn't really see yourself as the CEO responsible for a lot of people, right? Like, so walk me through that because it did change you in the way you saw yourself. I mean instantly, so I had one employee, if you could even call him that, and slice his finger, got a stitched up, and very quickly, after a letter from the Utah state government telling me I'm in trouble because I don't have workers' comp insurance, I'm learning, whoa, you know, there's a lot of responsibility here. By the way, what's workers' comp insurance? By the way, how could I know that at 21 years old? And that's the point is you just keep doing the next thing. And now, of course, I know that. And I know lots of things. You know, we're a publicly traded company on NASDAQ. I've learned a lot of things about a lot of things, but it's really only by doing the next thing. And so I think sometimes we're paralyzed by the overwhelming vast nature of business

and how complex it looks, how sophisticated. I mean, LoveSack Today has 2,000 employees. We have 300 locations. We're doing hundreds of millions of dollars approaching a billion. And it sounds amazing, but it's not. It's just the next thing and the next thing the next thing for a long, long time in my case. And I think in most cases, you know, too many articles and podcasts are written about the outliers. The overnight success, right?

And it happens, you know, and people do become billionaires rapidly. But there's a thousand more, 10,000 more that are just as successful, actually, and in some ways more, and in some ways more knowledgeable, you know, like, who knows more about controlling an aircraft, sold, who crashed it into the Hudson River or, you know, the pilot who's never made a mistake. And you could argue, you know, perhaps solely. And so I just think that embrace your own story. Don't worry about how long it takes. Be grateful that you have a story.

And just keep going before you know it. You'll know a lot about a lot of things. Right. So let's talk about the early days, though, because I think a lot of people on the show are like, should I start something or not? And when they do, it's like, it's hard, Sean. Like, even when you try to grow, it's freaking hard, right? So let's go back, right, a little bit.

You just start. At that point, it's still kind of more of a hobby that is expanding, I guess, maybe, right? In the beginning. And is there, like, a certain no that is kind of stuck in your head or some basic learning from those early days, like 95, 98, kind of the early days? When you're in the middle of it, you're in the middle of it, you're. you can't know actually what it is your building. And it's good to set goals and it's good to have a vision. But like what Lovesack has turned into today,

I could have never, and the path it had to go to get there, I could have never predicted. And so you really just have to try to do the best you can at what you're doing at that time, trying to live to whatever vision, whatever path you know, you've set. And the trick is,

and it's so tricky because, you know, as an example, It's very fashionable today to say like, what's your purpose? And have you identified? And I think it's all good. And it's good to, you know, even I actually dug up the other day. It was probably a college assignment in one of my business classes because I was doing this while I was going to college.

And it was like the vision for Love Sack. It was like my business plan, I guess. And it was probably like eight pages long on that printed paper with the little holes on the side because it came out of like that kind of printer, dot matrix brand. And it was so funny reading it because it was just so juvenile. You know, it's like, Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, but my point is that was my vision at that time.

I look back and... What was it? What did it say? I mean, it was seven pages long, but it included, you know, it's fun. It was like, we will, through events and promotions, like, establish the greatest not beanbag company in Utah and then eventually the United States. And in a lot of ways, a lot of those early little, column predictions, goals, whatever came true, but not in the way that I described them exactly.

And that's the trick is to have vision, goals, et cetera, but remain totally flexible. And by the way, just never be above doing the work. Like, I had to stuff thousands of sacks by myself with my own two hands before, you know, I could afford people to do that for me or with me, you know, for years. And then I had to, when we opened a Love Sack store in 2001, that was only because we got rejected by all the furniture stores.

We thought what we were doing was stupid. And so, you know, we had no choice. We had some debt to pay off, some credit cards. It's a long story. We could connect the dots, but let's open our own store. And it worked. But I was working in that store from open to close for months and months and months before we packed up and then did the same thing in California

and just kept doing the thing. but I was never above working today. You know, if a truck pulled up and I happen to be there, I'll help unload it, you know? And we have this phrase, be willing to sweep floors. And so it's tricky because you're also the CEO or you're like the founder and here I am stuffing beanbags for years. And that's the problem is that I'm a CEO, you're a CEO,

and this is to anyone listening. But my job today, now as a public company CEO, is radically different than it was even just a few years ago. But I've still not, I hope, too good to sweep the floors as necessary, you know? Right. And I agree. And I think the best founders are, right? I think it's the end of the day.

I think there's going to be a little bit of like you want to see the overall view, but you're also going to be okay with rolling up your sleeves and doing some of the ekey work because that's part of what it takes, especially in the beginning. But talk to me a little bit about the feel. of money because I think if there's one thing that scares people is debt and like I don't know how to cope with it. I don't want to go into debt. The financial fear, what if it doesn't work? What if I can't sell? And I think one of the things about leadership and I would love to hear how you cope with it because I think in school we always learn kind of the if then else. If I do this,

then I accomplish this, then I can do this, right? But in leadership and especially entrepreneurship, you almost need to flip this on its head, right? It's like, I'm going to make a decision, then I'm going to see a return, right? I'm going to hire someone. I'm going to see the ROI later. I'm going to put money into a place. Then I'm going to see return later. So everything needs to be kind of like flipped on its head. How did you cope with it? Well, first thing I'll ask you, not you, not you, but anyone listening is what's your worst case scenario? Really, let's, I mean, let's take it to like worse, you know, besides being hit by a bus. I'm talking about in, in business, in debt, in fundraising, in operations, whatever. And I think for a lot of us, it's going to be like,

well, I'd have to move in with my sister or something or like my mother-in-law in the basement or something. I'm sorry, your mother-in-law's basement is still like probably in the United States, probably first world decent. And that's your worst case. Like I'm talking full crater. Chapter 7 bankruptcy puts you there. Okay, that's pretty extreme. But it's not like the end of the world.

And even if you have, you know, I know you have kids and you have a family, I do. But it's like, okay, so that's like the worst case. Now, the odds of it going worst case are pretty low, actually. So it's probably something better than that. and even that's not death. So like, let's just like relax for a second. Let's just relax for a second. How cool is it to live in a country

where we have the chance to take risk and if something goes terribly wrong, you're not going to end up in debtor's prison, right? So I say if you think you have the stuff, if you, whatever that is, you go for it. And I'm not telling you to take on debt. You have to make a thousand choices a week as a business person, as an entrepreneur.

So it's yours to decide. But I will say to you, all I can offer is my situation. I'm sitting there on the floor of my parents' basement, cutting out fabric one day. This is before the stores and everything. And I'm an honor student. I'm getting a business degree. I speak Mandarin Chinese.

There's a whole other story behind that. I have lots of opportunity coming my way. I'm about to graduate from university. I have job interviews happening and I'm sitting on my butt cutting out of fabric and my mom walks by and she looks at me and says and she wasn't being mean

she was just having a conversation she said, is this what you want to do? And I look up at her with scissors in my hand you know and I said, I don't know I said I just feel like I should keep going. So entrepreneurs are by definition intuitive beings if you feel like you should keep going

you keep going. And in my case, that led me to needing to open a store. I had no choice but to max out my credit card. First, I had to open a factory. That's before the store. Had to max out my credit cards to do that. I'm 24 years old. I'm 55,000 in credit card debt.

And that's a long time ago. Might as well have been, you know, a couple hundred grand today. And it was terrifying. But I'll tell you, and this is a chapter in the book, embrace economic pressure. Whatever that means to you. You head creative. You get so creative.

That's right. Like, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. Economic pressure is the mother of much invention. You have to figure it out or you're done. You're back in the basement or whatever it is, right? So, like, and by the way, it never came to that. And so all I can offer you is my experience, right? But I was driven.

I was pushed out of bed on those tough days by that economic pressure, which also did make me depressed and full of anxiety at moments, right? And so I'm not telling you, I'm not giving you financial advice, but I do believe in economic pressure as a force for action. I think you become so creative when you have to. It's amazing. So let's go to 2004. You accept the rebel billionaire.

The show was Richard Branson. And funny enough, a couple weeks ago, whatever, I actually cycled with him and Sarah Blakely and India, so that was kind of fun. So, but what was it, how did that even come about? Like, what got you to say yes or how did that even happen? Once again, I just had my head down trying to survive. And we had opened a dozen stores and we're on our way. We were franchising.

We were kind of like blowing up a little bit, at least in the Western United States, love sacks, selling giant beanbags. We had a couch in the corner, music playing. people loved our stores and our best stores were doing, you know, on track to do a million or two a year, which at the time was really amazing. So we were going. And I was actually living in Mexico trying to get our factory spun up there because we had to move it out of Salt Lake to make that work. And I'm back in Salt Lake doing a favor for my sister. And my store calls me and says, hey, these people from Fox Network are here and they're at,

asking if you want to, like, audition for this TV show. And I was like, I don't know, I'm pretty busy. But I end up meeting with them and filming a thing and kind of forgot about it, you know? I mean, it seemed pretty cool, but come on, what are the odds? It was supposed to be with Richard Branson. It's kind of an answer to The Apprentice meets the Amazing Race. And I moved on. And it would be four months later, my phone rang.

And it's like, hey, you're a finalist to be on the show. we need you in L.A. to do some things. And then if you're chosen, you're going to need to fly to England, leave your phone behind no contact with your company or anybody. Your new wife was just married. Your wife, no contact with anyone for two months while we filmed this all over the world, and you'll have a chance to win the biggest prize in reality TV show history. And so, you know, that's a lot to ask from someone who's trying to make this business work,

even though we were had a lot of momentum, we were still just break even, not profitable. And my business partners are like, well, what do you think? And I said, how do you feel once again? Back to my intuition, right? And I said, well, I said, I feel like I'm either going to win or get kicked off in the first episode. And that would be terrible,

because then they sequester you on this island because they can't reveal the outcome of the show, so you just have to wait it out for seven or eight weeks. Yeah, bad news. So we said yes. And I went and took it and went filmed with Branson all over the world. You know, leaving people behind on the tarmac as one episode to the other is, you know, is a bit like The Apprentice.

You have 48 hours we're in Africa to come up with an economic plan for this village to make money. And then after that, we're going to go jump off a cliff together because I'm Richard Branson. And I did almost get kicked off an episode one. He's so typical of him. It's like crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And he's a cool guy and a great mentor.

He is. And anyway, me and Sarah Blakely, of course, of Spanx, make it to the final episode where probably out of charity, I win. And Sarah and I joke, you know, I won the show she won in life, but she's amazing. But, you know, Sarah, he funds her nonprofit, which is cool out of just his own pocket. And I win a million dollars from Fox Network on national TV. and I'm an overnight celebrity, at least in my hometown, and a little bit, you know, around.

And we raise money for a love sack on this momentum. And then, you know, within a year, the first thing the venture capitalist want to do is bankrupt my company. Wait, wait, wait, before that, you have a million dollars. How do you, and it's from Richard Branson, and it's like, you know, speaking to like some of the biggest,

I think, leader in the world. So, you know, what is this? do to you personally? A lot of things. I'm 27 years old. I'm fully unequipped to fully appreciate it, deal with it. My wife gets to, you know, they fly her down to Necker Island to jump out of the bushes and surprise me and like I win it. I won a million dollars. And here's what the TV doesn't show you. Yeah, I'm standing there with a check for a million dollars. And my wife is pretty and she's awesome and amazing and my life looks perfect. I have two million in debt. You know, having built all these stores and done all these things and bought all the inventory. And so like, what's a million

dollars? And I don't mean, it was great. Oh, I hear you. I mean, but you don't see that through TV, you know, so you never really know what you're watching. You never really know a full situation. And it was fantastic and a huge shot in the arm and it helped me raise that venture capital. Meanwhile, I think, I'm thinking, I mean, I'm going to be the next Richard Branson. Like, I'm going to build this company and then sell that and build 200 more and do all these things. And here I am, you know, fast forward again, 20 years later or whatever. And I'm still running Lovac. And I'm not complaining. My ambition for Lovac's massive. I mean, I think we can build a Nike and Apple. I think we can build a legendary

brand here. We're on our way. And that is my ambition. But it wasn't it back then, I thought LoveSack was kind of a stepping stone. And so I had a huge head, of course. I've just, been made president of version worldwide. I'm Richard Branson's poster child. And I get humbled real quick on the other end of that. So let's go there for a second. He is, by the way, you know, a huge mentor of mine. And, you know, was there specific things before we go through the big moment? Were there specific things that in retrospect, you're learning from that situation? First of all, you just never know what's going to happen. I mean, a year before, I would have never six months before, a month before. I would have never imagined

eight weeks later, I'm standing there on Necker Island with one of the most famous people in the whole world and I have a close association. I still do today and it's an amazing relationship and opportunity. On the other hand, then I was made president of Virgin Worldwide as well as coming back to Love Sack and keeping it going. And I got to travel all over the world and work with Richards, top CEOs at the time Virgin Megastro. stores, Virgin Airlines, Virgin Money, traveled all over the world meeting with them. And I got to kind of just give them my 27-year-old take on branding and business and whatever. But listening to

them, it was so eye-opening because, you know, and this isn't a knock on Virgin. It's a dose of reality. These companies are multi-billion dollar companies just oozing with problems. And it made me feel so much better because I realize like my done little, you know, furniture business oozing with problems is really no different than a multi-billion dollar airline fighting for gate space at Heathrow, you know, hemorrhaging employees sometimes or this, you know, whatever it is at the time. But I think this is so important. That's the reason, like, I want to go there for a second because the listeners, I think there's always a feeling of if I do this, I'll eventually feel like I arrived. And I think if you're like,

a high driven, you know, high achiever. I don't know if you ever really kind of arrive to that level. Like there's always like problems. There's always more. There's always a next goal. Like how do you see that, Sean? I mean, I'll share a story. I eventually end up as an instructor at Parsons School of Design in Manhattan,

teaching their master's program, this course, sustainable business models. And I'm standing there in front of these brilliant young minds teaching them, you know, some of my own playbook and all of this curriculum. One night feeling like just a total fraud. Here I am articulating, you know, how to build a sustainable business and know your purpose and all the things that ladder up to that. Meanwhile, at 70 million already, which at the time felt pretty awesome.

and terrifying. I didn't know if my business was going to survive another 90 days. This is at 70 million. This is after 17 years. Because if I didn't get this bridge financing worked out that we were working on, we weren't going to cash flow to our IPO, which also wasn't a guarantee in the following spring of 2018. And it was a real possibility that we were going to be insolvent.

And I still have to deliver the course and sound confident. and speak to these concepts as if I know what I'm talking about. And I remember feeling just as vulnerable at 7 million, which also felt masses. And at 70,000, you know, after the college days, which felt pretty cool. And now 700 million today. And it's still a grind.

And there are still meteors being hurled by even our president of our country. You know, the new tariffs took 30 million. from us in net profit just this last year. Oh my God. It would have just been, and I'm a public company, I still have to produce net profit. And I didn't plan on that in January when we set our goals,

and to have that wiped off the map for me and still having to deliver, it had nothing to do with me at all, you know? And my point being, business is a contact sport, you know, and if you're going to play it, it is going to hurt, at least in my experience.

And now there are amazing experience. and opportunities and people and doors opened, but it's never easy, and I don't care how big it gets, you're never arrived, and you just have different problems. So let's go back then to 2006 then, because you get this million dollar, theoretically, like you look like the epitome of success. What happens?

With all of this momentum, we raise, you know, 10 million from venture capital, which at the time in consumer was very unique, and it was early to be raising money through venture capital for a consumer retail exploit. And that was cool. And today, I feel like every other article's on, oh, these guys raised $100 million,

these guys raised a billion. It's all about how much someone to rate. It's like, don't talk to me out raising. How much is it making? I don't know how much you make. Exactly. But we raised this money, and I learned a lot through that

because one of their first moves was, hey, this is great, but we want to take you through a Chapter 11 reorg, shed 80% of your stores and start over, which would have me firing my friends and going through a humiliating restructuring and moving my young family to Connecticut, the place I'd never been. We'd started in Utah, it's a long ways away,

to be near them in New York. And it was just a terribly, difficult, humiliating time. Take me there for a second, Sean. Did you think of giving up? Where was that taking you? I considered giving up a thousand times. And in fact, at that time, it almost felt like the right thing to do.

You know, people had been damaged. They lost money. Had to restructure all over debt. I mean, it's really a bad situation to find yourself in. And even my own mom again, around the kitchen table, my mom and dad, you know, just go, what do you think I should do? Should I just wrap this, should I just like leave this thing and let it go because it's a big mess? And they don't, they can't give me tactical advice. They're not business operators like that. But my mom looked

at me and, you know, a bit emotionally said, well, you can quit or you can keep going. And so I chose to keep going. And I've made that choice a thousand other times, you know, like we have that choice every day. We wake up, we feel wiped out. We're terrified of this or that outcome. You know, we're stressed out by debt. We're stressed out by our children's situation that we can't control all of these things sometimes at once.

Okay, well, you can quit or you can keep going. And it really is kind of that simple. And if you're going to keep going, at least do it with style. You know, get out of bed. Do your morning routine. force yourself sometimes into, you know, out of the funk and do your best. And what's amazing is, if you do that enough, you get somewhere. And so we did emerge from the chapter 11, and we did start over with a dozen stores,

and then we spent another decade kind of rebuilding, a decade. And that led to the decade where we then got to 10X the company and go public and do all kinds of other cool things. But it was a decade before that of surviving. And so look, I'm not, I'm sure that had I been smarter, made better choices, made different choices, could have avoided a lot of this stuff. So who am I to give anyone advice? But that's my experience with it. And frankly, even though some things Richard Branson doesn't because of my experiences. And I don't mean that in a snarky way. I mean that we get to, you know, we get to learn the things we get to learn through our experiences. And sometimes we got to be careful to judge them at the, time. I mean, I wouldn't exactly do that again, but I'll tell you what, like through something like a complete reorg like that, who else has even seen how contracts really play out? And I don't mean a contract or two. I mean all the contracts, every lease, every piece of debt, everything

you've ever signed and all the clauses therein stacking up, prioritized, rationalized. I'm getting dizzy just hearing this because I can just like try, I start feeling the, The magnitude of what you just went to. But the point is it's also not life and death. It's just people and lawyers and money and accountants. And if you have any kind of stomach, you can weather that too. And then you have a stronger stomach. You know, so don't wish it away.

Whatever it is you're facing, whatever it is you're dealing with right now. Because do you really want that guy's problems? I mean, you don't even know what they are. And what if they were in the realm of like, hey, I don't know. think any of my kids do drugs. We seem to have, you know, functional relationships, a lot of fun to get. I'll take that. You know, like everything comes at a cost and everyone's, every human on the earth is dealing with some kind of massive crisis that you know nothing about, even if they put on a good face. And if they aren't at this moment, they will be next week or they were last week. So

don't, you know, be grateful for the problems you have, I say. I love that you're sharing it so openly, that's basically why I started the Leap Academy podcast. Like, I wanted a little bit of no BS conversations because I felt like on social media, everybody looks so successful and it's so easy. And they always have the five tips that will change me forever and I will become a millionaire. And then you have the four-hour work week that is promising that I can work only five hours a week. And I'm going to be rich and famous. Amazing.

And I, on the other hand, are grinding. So you always feel like, what am I doing wrong? Right? And since then, I've had, you know, hundreds of people coming on the show just like you and being honest and saying, ah, not quite. It's not quite what it looks like, right? So I love how open you are about it, but not everybody is open about it, John. Why do you decide to be so open about it, you know, with your book, with your podcast? Like, why do you decide to be so honest?

I mean, I've just, I think, been beaten down enough that, uh, humbled by life that I'm over, you know, some of the ego protective behavior that, of course, I exhibited through much of my youth, which, by the way, led me to much of those problems that I just described. But I was young and I was dumb. And the only way to get less dumb is to live through some stuff. And so, or by the way, learn from others. And I was, and that was a big part of it. I was probably too cocky to have proper mentors. I did read a lot of books. I'm grateful for that. And I, you know, I do believe in insatiable learning is a value at Love Sack, you know, in all forms. It's the only way I can see to be useful is by being honest, because otherwise, to your point,

sometimes people in my position make it worse for people in the sense that, oh, man, I'll never get to that scale or, you know, his family looks happy or like mine, you know, I'm having problems or, you know, and so I think if we're not honest with each other, we're doing each other damage. Well, I agree. And I will say, I don't, you know, you called yourself dumb. And I think, first of all, we always going to suck the first time. Like, I think there's like, it's almost impossible to get right, no matter what age you're in. And I think, you know, as much as I know Leap Academy has doing phenomenal to shortcut, hope was, you know, like, we, you know, like, we. teach you all the things just like you have the 25 years, right?

Like, we teach you all the learning. We coach you. We hope you. We have community. But people will still make mistakes. Like, that's inevitable. That's in fact how you grow, right? Like, I think that's almost like the necessary evil to create a thicker skin and to actually

become the best version of you. I don't know if that's possible to maneuver without it. What do you think, Sean? We don't learn from winning. we learn from losing. We learn from mistakes. And so we will never turn our nose up at a win. And it's fun to win and we celebrate our wins.

But, you know, the misses, the mistakes, the... And it can be so simple. It can just be an interaction. It can be a word. It can be a glance. It can be a bad mood. It can be just being a little bit ignorant. You know, these little misses that we all experience every day

from minute to minute as we ricochish, off of each other, are our chances to, again, either learn nothing and continue on in our ignorance or learn something and just do it a little bit better next time. And whether that's high stakes, like some contract negotiation or some choice or, you know, financial decision, or whether it's as simple as, you know, your own extended family around a dinner table. So you mentioned that you went, you know, when you went public. And I want to talk about this. for a second because I think there's like this feeling like that's really when you arrive. Like when you take a company public, that is it.

Like, Sean, you know, you're the epitome of success. Can you walk me through a little bit? Like, how does that change you? And what needs to change in order to be able to do that? So take us to the journey for a second. Going public is pretty cool. And in fact, I really now eight years in, condone. the public company structure.

I think it's a better structure. I think every company should be made to go public. Even if it was mostly owned by a person or a family like many are, in my case, most of our stock is owned by public investors, and I'm held to account. And that's, I love it.

Like, I don't get to just be like this founder guy with a drug habit that no one talks about because, like, he owns a company and he's super rich. It's like, I gotta show up every day and win. I gotta show up every day and perform. I got a,

I got to meet our earnings whether or not tariffs hit. I got to, you know, and that's kind of an awesome dynamic. It's awesome for me, you know. It's as a human that's, again, in the crucible of development. But it's also awesome for the company and everything that comes with it. The accounting, the reporting, you know, obviously I think it's overregulated in the SEC has plenty of problems. And, you know, there's lots of kind of bad things.

Overall, it's the right way to run a business. So there's that. On the other hand, all you did was sell your stock to a bunch of people. So instead of having, let's say, no boss, if you owned your company outright, that's pretty cool. But that has its problems, too, you know, having one boss, if you were private equity owned or a couple bosses, and that has his problems because, you know, that, that dude's wife doesn't like your latest, you know, fabric line.

And all of a sudden, you're changing things because one person's opinion. And all the other things that come with that, now you have a thousand, now you have 10,000 bosses, which is a totally new dynamic. So it's not the end of anything. It's the beginning of just a new chapter. And my role as CEO is vastly different as a public company CEO

than it was as a private equity CEO, as it was when it was me and my buddy's stuff and love sacks. But I still get to make things designed, you know, I still get to do a lot of what I, want to do because by the way I can afford a team to make up for every shortcoming I have. My president, C-O-L, she is like, are you kidding me? She ran a division of Walmart for $90 billion.

She ran BIC. She's L'Oreal. Like, my whole top team is like that. How cool is that? And how cool is it through me as a human on the earth just to get to interact with that caliber of person every day that have paid the dues for decades in their own life to have the skills and abilities that I never got because I was raised in the woods? And so it's not, I guess it could have been an exit.

Like I could have just let the stock run up because it did at one point and sell all my stock and then be super rich. But then what? You know, most of the people I know that are retired like that are bored and then working on their next thing, which may or may not go so well. And so it's like what a blessing I feel like to be able to continue on as a founder. And now, of course, our goals have shifted. And I really think we can build a Nike and Apple out of this strange brand called LoveSack.

And I'm sure that sounds ridiculous to everyone listening. You'll see. Give me another 10 years. Check back in. And you'll see. And that's the point is like at some point in my long arc, I made the decision that I'll just go as long as it takes. I don't even care. I'm not thinking about like, oh, if I could only save this much money, I could buy an apartment house. And then I could have rentals. And then I could, no. And not to say that that's not a good thing to do with your money, whatever. But the point is, forget the money. I'm trying to see if I can't build a Nike. And I don't mean me even if we can't build a Nike because that was just built by people and that's kind of cool. And I want to see if I can do that on the earth. Because by the way,

it's hard. I think it's harder than, look, I'm not a sculptor. I don't know if you gave me a block of marble the size of this room. Could I extract the statue of David out of it? I don't think so. In a lot of ways, I think business is even harder because that's one discipline. This is like finance and accounting and branding and marketing and design and, you know, interpersonal relationships, law, I mean, on and on and on and on and on. And it's awesome. Like what a cool art form to participate in and even maybe get good at by the time you're too old to do it anymore. And so I made the decision. Look, forget the time frame. Forget the goals. And there's goals and there's, you know, there's whatever,

milestones that we set for ourselves and for the company. But forget all that. It's like, let's just see if we can't do this big thing. And when you finally make the decision, like, I don't care how long it takes, then nothing can touch you. Tariffs, oh, well, it's another tough year. You know, four straight years of home category declines post-COVID, oh, well, let's go five. Let's go six.

Let's see the other ones around me burn and go bankrupt, as they are. A lot of the cohorts I came up with in direct-to-consumer land are now bankrupt or going bankrupt. I'm not saying that as a snarky thing. I'm saying not this one. You're right. Like between COVID, which shut all the stores down, right? And between like tariffs, like, I mean, there's a lot. And there's like all this money piling up.

And I'm sure that, you know, so. And I love that you're so honest about it because I think people don't realize it's true also for us. Like when we say, oh my God, we're a Milton multi-million dollar company. It doesn't mean that you take multi-million dollar home. It just means that there's more for ads, there's more for people, there's more for, like, it's different. And people, I think, don't realize it's a billion-dollar company. It doesn't mean that, you know, somebody's literally taking billions of dollars home.

It just means that there's a lot bigger risk if something fails or if there's a bad month. So take me there for a second because you went to a lot. How do you cope, for example, with COVID? Like, you know, like, take us back there for a second. Because I reflected on this yesterday or the day before. I was, you know, I woke, I don't know, I had a bad day and I didn't feel great. And I was bummed about a lot of different things. And I've learned to just like to some degree, first of all, you know, get out of bed,

do the same routine, do those things. Do not, you know, push yourself. And it doesn't have to be a high bar. You don't have to be like, I'm going to do 90 minute workout every day. and I'm going to, you know, but have a few things that you don't compromise on, did those things, still felt bad. And I've learned sometimes to just, you know, this two shall pass. I've had enough of those bad days to know, like, if I can just kind of pedal through this one,

I'll probably wake up okay tomorrow. And if not tomorrow, then at least the next day, as long as I don't quit. I don't, you know, just stay in bed. And so to some degree, I think people need to be a little easier on themselves, but not totally forgiving. In other words, like, we still push ourselves a little bit. We still do the things. And I think if you, if you, at least in my case, you know, we usually bounce back as it, as it pertains to COVID. You're absolutely right, right? There's, you do need to give yourself a little bit of space or grace, but you just don't want to live in that mental anxiety, although sometimes I want to, you know,

curl into a ball and just be in bed and for the, for the world to just, you know, like, continue without me for a second. But I think there's also an element that you're going to have to put your own oxygen mask on before you can help anybody else, right? So you really have to take, even if it means taking a step back, finding your own rhythm and finding the things that make you feel better. I think for me it's hiking and being outside is like it always kind of this mental space for me. And also just not being in the minutia. Like I think when you, it just forces you almost to not be in the emails and the things. And suddenly things look better. I don't know how to say it.

But what is that for you, Sean? Is there like something specific that you do? Yeah. I mean, a number of things. I ride my dirt bike. So I'm a huge outdoors person. Dirt biking. You know, there's motorcycles off road, violent, fast, aggressive, dangerous surfing.

these are things that I love and clear my head and also train me to have to continue to have the appetite for risk, continue to have a little bit of a killer instinct, continue to be competitive, continue to feel adrenaline. It has nothing to do with business directly. At the same time, obviously, by the way, I just put it, kind of does. But sometimes you have to have faith in those things, right? because when you're feeling crappy,

then you don't even feel like doing that sometimes. So that's when I have to go dirt biking. Or I have to. And so when you don't feel like doing something, sometimes at this time you just have to kind of make yourself. And if you don't have the capacity to even make yourself, then I also offer this. Captaining a business, being an entrepreneur,

which is like celebrated, it's like today's gladiators. You know, we're on the cover of magazines and, or on podcasts, or written about, or it's not for everyone. And I mean that, I don't mean that judgmentally. I mean, like, I do, I have a capacity for risk. I have a capacity for work. I have a capacity for economic pressure, for uncertainty. That's a big one.

You know, I have a capacity to live in uncertainty. Some people just don't. And by the way, I'm grateful because a lot of those people work for me. And they're awesome. They're better at what they do than I could ever be at what they do. and I'm not saying that to make them feel good. I'm saying that because it's true. So this is my role, but they have their role.

And they may not have, you know, the exact traits I do. And so first of all, it's not for everyone. It's not the case that anyone can do this. I think anyone can, but not everyone should. So let me ask you there. Let me go there just for a second because I think one of the themes that I've gone to, you know, was in the years of Leap Academy. me initially this is what I would say, right? It's like not everybody needs to be

entrepreneur. Like if you can be number two, three, four, five, physical, you are better off. And I still say that. Like I still really, really do believe that not everybody's meant for whatever the heck we are doing to ourselves. Like I don't necessarily think this is like amazing for everybody. Like I really generally don't. The problem is, Sean, and I'm curious to see what you're saying, at least from Silicon Valley, tech world, et cetera. What I'm seeing is a huge cliff where tens of millions, if not more, are going to lose their identity and their jobs and everything. And if they don't build kind of a backup plan and their own at least their brand, their safety net, at least an identity without that one career ladder, they might find themselves very soon in a

problem trying to reinvent themselves in a big way. It's an interesting observation. first of all I agree. You know, in my darkest moments, I'll go there, right? Oh my gosh, like if this, you know, if this fell apart tomorrow or I get canceled tomorrow or I get, who knows? You know, I'm a public company CEO. I'm always on the chopping block, actually, in reality. What do I do?

And then I stop myself. I don't let myself go there. I just, I have no safety net. And I'm not saying this is good advice. I'm telling you just about me. and now in the back of my mind do I know that I have a work ethic and like I know some stuff about stuff

and I have a great you know rolodex of people that I could reach yeah I know all that so it's like okay fine I know that enough I'm not gonna think through what my next venture is or what I do to land I'm not gonna do that back to economic pressure so that's me

now as it pertains to you know I guess anyone I would go right back to the same principles are you building a Rolodex? Do you maintain relationships? Do you have a good reputation? Are you obviously trying to be responsible financially, whatever that means to you?

And to me, that's enough. If those things are true, then a reasonably intelligent person will figure it out. That's what got me here. I figured it out. I'm figuring it out every day. You know what I mean? What business do I have being a public company CEO?

You know, sharing the same airspace is any other one of those, you know, that went to Harvard and got an MBA and did those things. You know what I mean? But I am. And I have them for eight years. And so apparently it's not rocket science. I could probably do that again. And so it's like that's enough. That's enough for me. I'm not, again, saying, this is good advice. I'm just telling you that's how I. But you also have the book and you have the podcast now. So you are building somewhat of a brand that Sean Nelson will also, but again, you're also a public company CEO, which has its own brand, right? But I'm just saying there's a brand, you know, beyond just love sack, right?

Now, in your case, because you also control the brand, like you can continue with love sack and to grow it to become a competition to Nike's and all the rest. But I'm just saying there's an authority that you're building for yourself to just not completely fall off the chasm, right? That's a double-edged sword. Like, in other words, it is meant first to, look, I'm just trying to be another way in for people to hear about Love Sack and to hear about what I'm doing. You know, on the other hand, no question.

And I'm not blind to the fact that there's upside to that and if I ever needed it as a backstop. And again, it's my resume. At the end of the day, it's your reputation. So we shouldn't be blind to these things, especially in today's. world because by the way forget Nike the new Nike's are the Kardashians or you know uh haley Bieber she's competing with unilever and loriel like that's insane like the power of personal branding so like don't don't turn your nose up at it you know what I mean like this is where the puck is going I'm not saying everyone needs to do it but if you have some capacity for it like I'm clearly

a talker okay and like I'll all I'll understand invest in it. I'll do it. Well, I think it does make a difference. I think we are in some kind of a lack of trust economy and some weird things going on. And I think, you know, having that connection with Sean as Sean, right? And I think it does make a difference. So, but tell me for a second. I mean, you, you have a book and you have the podcast and it's, let me save you 25 years. And when I hear it, it's like, okay, please do. First of all, what are some? some things, and you share it beautifully in the book, and we talked about some of them, but what are some of the things that you wish somebody, you know, met you a little earlier,

and again, maybe you wouldn't have listened, but that we would, what kind of advice you wish you would hear and that would save you some pain? When I first started writing this book, I wanted to share just like the nitty gritty, because Love Sack is a saga. Like, it shouldn't be, it's a beanbag company, turning a couch company, but like, it is a saga and I got a hundred pages in and I was still back in 2001. I was like, oh, no, this book's going to be a thousand, you know, I'm not Barack Obama. So I scrapped it and I decided I'm going to try and write it the shortest version I possibly can, but still be really honest. So the subtitle,

right, let me save the 25 years, mistakes, miracles and lessons from the love sack story. And I lead with mistakes. So every chapter is a mistake. And every chapter is a mistake. And every chapter a lesson in a shanaism. And so those are the things. Because by the way, you don't have to go make every mistake. You will. You'll make tons. But you could avoid a few by learning from mine or from yours or, you know, if they're willing to share. Because all these books behind me, I've read them all. I try and read everything. And I wish there were more honest books. I tried to be really honest and just raw. Like I totally, I totally missed this. I totally have this up. I feel terribly because I'm hoping that someone in their, you know, early 20s, late teens, whatever,

I was 18 when I made the first sack, someone may just read it and save themselves some of the mistakes by learning from mine. But they'll never save all of them. And that's okay. That's part of the journey. But that's the spirit of the book. And I mean, I could pick some, you know. you mentioned one of those shawazim's earlier, it's your fault.

That's a phrase we use at Lovestack, and we have fun with it, you know, like, and it's when things are going great, like, oh my gosh, the website's crushing it

after these changes, like, that is your fault. And I can, it's so cool, because I can say that to my head of web or anyone on that team,

and it has nothing to do with me. And they truly can own that. Now, on the other hand, you know, don't think that it doesn't ring in their ears when web sales are down. And that's the power of accountability. And I had to learn that because I'm, you know, I used to be a

blamer. And, and I, you know, so mistake after mistake, lesson after lesson, I, you know, I wrap up the book, um, with this, Sean is, um, maintain top ambition with infinite patience. And you heard me speak to this already. You know, like, like, you may get lucky. And people do win the lottery. You may know someone who's won the lottery. I don't know anyone, but it does happen. I'm told. It's probably going to take you way longer than you planned. And when I say way longer, I don't mean like an extra year or two. I mean like an extra decade or two. It's probably going to cost you more. You're going to need to raise more money than you ever imagine. It's disgusting. You're going to make mistakes that will cost you millions sometimes. You're going to burn friendships.

You're going to damage people. Unintentionally. Unintentionally. But if you can maintain your top ambition through it all and not just give up, not just say, well, well, maybe I should, you know, lower the bar. And with infinite patience, that's the key. It's one thing to be like, oh, I have this vision board. Okay, great. But how long can you go? How long do you really have the stomach for it?

And if you have infinite patience, there's actually nothing you can't do. You can literally achieve anything you want. But you do need to make sure that you want it. And my wants and desires and even what I think of as success has changed drastically. I'm almost 50 years old. Like, I know many at this point, billionaires and 100 millionaires. Some of them I think, and I'm not a billionaire. You know, all my money's still in Love Sack, and maybe Lovac won't make it.

Maybe I'll be penniless. I don't think so, but I'm just saying, like, you know, like I haven't diversified a lot. I haven't cashed out. I haven't just, you know, I'm not playing it safe. But as some of those billionaires and hundred millionaires, I think might even trade places with me to have kids that know them well that they're close to, to be on their first marriage, And I'm not saying that like a champion. I'm just saying that that's how I really think of success.

And I'm very grateful that I've figured that out for me. Not for everyone, I guess, but for me. And now, and because of that, to some degree, like another round of tariffs, another sucky year, World War III apparently. Whatever, man. Whatever. We'll keep sailing couches. We'll do the next thing. And that's the cool thing, is that nothing can really touch you when you're really in touch with how you define success and you're confident that you're generally on the path to hanging on to it.

Wow, this is beautiful. Let me ask you just for a second because when you said that, it just, you know, it's like clicks. Like, what's your why? Like, why are you building this? Like, why is there something that is pulling you? Like, what is that, Sean? So I'll give you two answers to that question. Love Sacks, why?

Love Sacks purpose that energizes all of us. And it's fun to go to work to this end. We will inspire humankind to buy better stuff. This thing, buy less stuff. And there will be fewer couches sold on Earth because ours last forever. This couch I'm sitting on right here, 18 years old, it's older than my oldest child.

It'll go another 18. It's on a 10th set of covers. You wouldn't know it. It's made it with brand new pieces, recliner, all the extra things we've added along the way, but the core piece is still valid and the stuff we make today's even better. And we didn't have that in the beginning. I made giant beam bags, but they were good, and it led me to this. And it's cool because now it energizes all 2,000 of us.

So there's that. For me, and it's different. And it's not, I'm the founder of Love Sack. That's my why. No, my personal. I want to hear the personal why, because you're enduring. a lot. So that is not it. Sure. Is to create environments that uplift and inspire people. That's what I love doing. And I do it in

microways amongst my dirt bike buddies and, you know, the little crew we got going. I do it with, I try to do it with my children and my family. I get to do it professionally at LoveSack. And I've come to learn that like if I put myself in a position where I am doing that, I'm happy. I lead a happy life and the outcomes are good. Like doing that helps me stay close to my children, helps me, you know, build a stable family, I think. You know, and so it helps me build a stable company.

So that's how I operate. Do you think there's something that nobody knows about you or that not as many people know about you, Sean, that kind of built you to this? I don't know. I think that probably because I, like anyone else, put out, Instagram is like a greatest hits album. But if you're a fan of any artist

and you have all their albums, you know that there's like a hundred more songs that kind of suck compared to the greatest hits. And sadly, on Instagram, that's all we see. And I, like any other human, put out a lot of greatest hits on Instagram. But and people think on this energetic, enthusiastic, you know, a friendly person and I hope I am generally.

But I'm also stressed out and bummed out at times and, you know, snappier than I should be or like dismissive or task oriented or not present enough. And I'm fighting that battle every day against Instagram. trying to be more present, trying to stop scrolling, trying to do all the dumb things that we do just to be better humans. And so maybe that's pretty apparent, but sometimes I worry that I'm just part of the machine

that makes us all feel worse because so-and-so's life is better than mine. And it's just not that way. Life's a great graphic equalizer. I got dials up to the max and I got ones pulled all the way down to the bottom. them. And we all do. They're just different dials. That was strong, Sean. Okay, so how do they find you? And thank you for sharing. This was so good. Like, I can probably like geek with you all day long

about entrepreneurship. But, um, so they go to love sack. What else? What else should we tell them, Sean? Yeah. I mean, Love Sack. And your podcast, your book. It lasts forever. We're proud of it. Um, we'll do a lot more. And so get into that family. Sean, David Nelson, you know, my website, the book, let me save you 25 years. But, you know, look, find me on Instagram, slide in my DMs. I stay in touch with people that way. Sean of Love Sack on every social media channel. I'm happy to be connected. That's so good. Sean, thank you for this fun conversation. It was so, so, so, so inspiring. I'm sure everybody loved it. So, so good. Thanks for having me.