Leap Academy with Ilana Golan - Manu Sai Bakshi: From Starting Over to Recruiting Wall Street’s Top Talent | EP167

Episode Date: August 18, 2026

Manu Sai Bakshi arrived in New York with $2,500, a new wife, and a degree that wasn’t recognized in the U.S. Within weeks, he was applying for a job at Macy’s in Herald Square. That humbling beginning eventually led Manu into the hedge fund world, where he spent nearly a decade learning how the industry identifies and hires elite talent before launching Permanence Advisors during COVID. In this episode, Manu joins Ilana to break down what separates great portfolio managers from mediocre ones, why reputation matters more than a quick fee, and how taking the harder path can become your greatest competitive advantage. Chapters 00:00 – Introduction 04:38 – What Is a Hedge Fund? Breaking It Down Simply 07:26 – From IBM to Macy’s: Manu’s First Days in New York 11:13 – The Differentiator: Cold Calling When No One Else Would 14:52 – Almost Fired—and Already Planning His Own Firm 18:24 – The Moment That Proved He Could Place Portfolio Managers 22:32 – What Makes a Great Portfolio Manager 25:17 – Why Reputation Is Everything 33:26 – Launching His Own Firm During COVID 37:22 – Building the First Client: Knock Their Socks Off 42:21 – How People Actually Become Portfolio Managers 46:40 – Manu’s Favorite Interview Questions and Red Flags 48:48 – The Biggest Hiring Mistakes Hedge Funds Make 53:47 – Q&A: How Do You Keep Going When You Feel Defeated? About Manu Sai Bakshi Manu Sai Bakshi is the Founder and CEO of Permanence Advisors, a boutique search firm specializing in placing elite portfolio managers at multibillion-dollar hedge funds. After immigrating from India, Manu built his career from the ground up before spending nearly a decade leading recruiting inside a systematic hedge fund. Today, he works with senior hedge fund leaders as both a recruiter and strategic talent advisor. Leap Academy Ready to make the LEAP in your career? There is a new way for professionals to fast-track their careers and leap into bigger opportunities. Get started with Ilana’s free career training at leapacademy.com/training.

Even after eight months being really successful in my job, I was actually given a bank sheet that you'll be fired in four weeks. A lot of the phone calls were not being returned anymore. It was not you all the time. It was the seat that you were in. My dad was fired from his job. Financially, we had a very tough time. That sort of drove me, even at a very young age, to be an entrepreneur. Tell me about the first clients, because sometimes that's really hard, right?

and there's stress and can I do this and can't I survive on this? Take me there for a second. What were some hard moments, Manu, that shook you a little bit and what did they teach you? Think about this as an agent. Be the Jerry Maguire. Absolutely love what you do and truly help people without expecting something in return. What on earth is this role that makes millions of dollars? But what taught you this?

Like usually there's a moment that needed to teach us to be like this, no? I think the best advice I would say is... Hey, I have a favor to ask. I decided not to put any ads on the show because I don't want to vouch for things or products that I don't really, really believe in. But in order for us to continue to bring these amazing guests, all I'm asking is, if that's okay,

just click that like, subscribe, download button. Those mean to us more than you can think. So is that a good deal? Let's dive in. Manu Saibakshi is the founder and CEO of Permanence Advisors. A search firm he built to help multi-billion dollar hedge funds hire their top portfolio managers. He built such a reputation that he works directly with the founders and senior leaders

of the world's top funds and the portfolio managers he brings can make such a big difference to a fund that they can earn way above a major. million a year. In fact, it's anywhere between mid-seven figures and in strong years can be even eight figures plus. Now, how does an immigrant from India break through to work with the top hedge funds in the world? And why do they trust him to take his calls and what does it even look? What does he look for in candidates? And why would a firm pay someone millions of dollars a year? Amazing. It's going to be such a fun conversation. Get ready for a fascinating conversation. Manu is so good to see you. Good to see you, Ilana. It's been a while.

So, so fun. And just before, I need to remind the listeners, at the end of the conversation, I select a question from our Leap Academy with Ilana Gulan YouTube channel. So first of all, go there and put in your questions and, you know, anything about your career. And we have a chance to take your question and kind of answer it live here on the show. So in today's question came from Robin, who asked, how do you keep going when you feel defeated? What a beautiful question. And I will absolutely address it at the end of the conversation.

So be sure to stick around and share this episode with anyone who needs to hear this today. So let's dive in, Manu. Oh my God, so fun. So, so, so fun. But we're going to have to start with something very simple because assume that nobody understands what is a hedge fund in my listeners or most people don't understand what it is. What is a hedge fund? Like what is that? Well, a hedge fund essentially a investment firm that runs multiple strategies, whether it's equities, credit, you know, systematic trading under one platform with good risk controls to generate.

great returns for the clients, for what they're managing money for. That's really what a hedge fund is essentially. Right. So maybe for somebody that is really new to investment and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but like the regular investment funds are like the bus, right? They have one route. You know, they usually buy stocks and they wait for it to grow up, right? And everybody is kind of going in the same direction and a hedge fund is like a sports car, right? Like they try to make money no matter what direction the market is going. Am I kind of understanding this correctly, Manu? I mean, multi-strike funds are market neutral. Yeah. So they make generate revenue no matter what the environment is. So what is the difference? Like for our listeners, first of all, before we dive into

what is portfolio manager, how did you get into these hedge funds? But what is roughly the difference? I think there's only like institutions and billioners and family offices that really are involved. Like, tell us a little bit about what is the difference? I think family offices managing money for a large family, you know, so, you know, wealthy individual will have his own family office. A hedge fund is managing money for multiple clients. A lot of times there's institutional clients, right? Could also be high networked individuals who invest in a hedge fund, then they charge a fee

for their performance. know that that can also be varied. That's public knowledge. Some hedge funds have high fees or some of the highest fees because they generate stellar returns for the clients. So that's really sort of, you know, simple vanilla answer. And before we dive in, just for the people listening, is it roughly the fees?

I know they vary, but is it roughly like venture capital, like 2% of asset annually, 20% of profit? Is this roughly a ballpark? A 2N20 can be lower. In some cases, a lot higher, too. Yes. Okay. So now that we roughly understand what a hedge fund is,

it's basically an institution that makes a lot of really risky investment in a lot of money in the general sense. But take us back in time. You moved to the U.S. from India. You didn't have any experience in hedge funds, right? Like when you just moved. So take us back in time to your career. What were your first jobs here in the U.S.? How was it?

Sure. So I arrived, you know, late 05. I had a degree in human resources. I worked for IBM, and I was looking for a job with human resources in New York City, you know, and had a couple of interviews in the first couple of weeks, and I just heard this phrase,

a couple of interviews, met some headhunters. You don't really have New York experience. I'm like, I hear, what is this New York experience, man? What do IBM? I've got a degree in human resources. I'm so eager to work here, I proved myself. And so I got rejected at a few places.

And I met these recruiters and just applying online trying to find some shape of form where I could literally get a job. And I think August 31st is when I arrived. And I think Bahá'i, end of September, early October, I was like, maybe I should just flip burgers or work at RadioShack.

And I literally applied at Radio Shack. I actually did. And I went into Macy's at Herald Square to apply for a job. I'm like, I need a job, okay, no matter what it takes. I had $20,000 in my name. I was married and, you know, it was just such a lot of pressure, which is fine. And I started my first job in Macy's on Herald Square here. And that's after IBM, right?

Like, it's after you work in IBM. In fact, they asked me, you overqualified. for being a contract for Trudeau for Christmas staff and we'll pay you 12 bucks 50 cents an hour. I said, I will take that. I'm so pumped. They probably thought I was crazy, which is saying, honestly, it worked out for me. And I go there. And on Thursday, because it was a temp role, was, you know, only for two months. And I got a call from a startup that I'd interviewed. And they offered me a job in human resources, an HR specialist, paying $50,000 analyzed.

I'm like, that's amazing. And I got my first job, awesome. So I left, I started in HR. I was doing admin stuff, like just payroll, typing off of letters. And I wanted to be like more strategic and just really wasn't enjoying that particular role. And then one of the headhunters that I had known when I was looking for a job. speaking with headhunters, I reached out to him, and he said, why don't you become a head hunter?

So I said, okay, what does that really mean? I understand recruiting as a part of human resources, but what does really this mean? He says, oh, well, you know, come to my office. So I go into his office, beautiful office on Park Avenue, and I see a lot of people on the phones. It's like high floor, and he makes me sit down and gives me this big booklet.

And it has all the names, I still remember. You know, so it had funds, investment banks, and I'm kind of sort of mesmerized. Like, look at how many jobs we have in technology that you could work on and you can make so much commission. I said, okay, how does that work? He explained me the whole thing, but I was sort of mesmerized. I'm like, okay, I think my career could go somewhere there. And he offered me a job. And I met him a few times.

So I started in technology recruiting for back office. That's really how my career started in 2007. So I go in and I'm really pumped and I realize the three people saying next to me are working on the same jobs as I'm working on. So I'm like, okay, so there are probably a lot of people working all the same jobs here. And, you know, we had access to career builder, dice, monster.com and just getting all these CBs, which people are looking for jobs or people have not had jobs for months or something. time is even longer, and you're just literally just sending these CBs out to clients all day.

And I said, okay, how do I differentiate myself? And I said, okay, let's see, I have a director here, and I'm going to start calling people. Because nobody else seemed to be doing that and were afraid of the phone. So I took that route and I started call calling individuals. That's really how it started. And I want to stop here for a second and for the listeners to understand the question, because that question, how can I differentiate, is so, so, so fundamental. And I would say it was always fundamental. And today in the era of AI, when everybody's average, you're going to have to find a way to rise above the noise more than ever. So I want to go back to the story, but this is such, I want to make sure they all understand that. This is such a great point, right? That question

alone. And there's always less competition on the harder path. So choose the harder path. Exactly. Yeah, there's no traffic jam at the extra mile. So you're going and calling people. Let's go. So tell me. Okay, how does that work? It's pretty evident because now with this call calling, I used to get a CV, which was very different than what you would find online or somebody who was actually looking. And, you know, I started getting interviews. And I started being. But wait, you probably also got reductions, right? Yes, yeah, of course. That is part of it. part of the parcel, right? So that's... How did you cope with that? How did you continue calling despite the rejection or disconnect? I used to ask people to meet me. I think that was another differentiator, which was sort of, you know, nothing people weren't doing that because, you know, you're working on a fairly small draw, and all somebody wanted to do was make a placement,

and that's really what they were thinking. And I was thinking the long game, even then, I was thinking the long game. I said, I want to... to build a relationship. I want to see who this person is behind the phone, right? So I used to make an effort where I like, hey, could I come and meet you? And even then, suppers were expensive and for me on a very small draw,

but I made my way around New York, I started going and meeting these individuals. They're like, oh, well, this person is coming to meet me. And sometimes you should come to the office also. So I started building a pitiful, track record, knowing people. In fact, you know, I still remember I was in a bus coming in from Queens going to the subway station, and I saw these two people, and they had these Bloomberg, you know, cards on them with their names. And I started speaking with them.

I'm like, hi, my name is Miller. I had the clued in technology. What do you do? I'm like, whatever it takes, you know, just get it done. So while I was doing that, I started cold calling individuals in companies that we have these therapists. please fall. And I started getting people in accounting and finance and I started sending them to the accounting and a finance department, you know, and I, even after eight months being really successful in my job, I was actually given a pink sheet that you'll be fired in four weeks

unless you make another placement in technology because you're in the technology vertical. And I'm thinking, You know, I'm doing so. Wait, wait. So for the listeners, like, you're going above and beyond. You're opening all these incredible doors. But because you didn't place that specific rule, you're on, you're basically almost fired. You have four weeks. And now I'm thinking, okay, I know this bottle doesn't work. And someday, I believe I'm going to have my own firm where this will not happen.

I already thinking that. You're already thinking that. That's incredible. Okay. I will, but I'm like, I now have to lure myself where I'm like, I just went into career builder monsters, I'd find these tech CDs. And I made a placement.

I made a placement that probably saved my job back then. And then lucky enough for me, I got head hunted, literally about 15 months into the job by another search firm. They had heard about me from a hedge fund that this guy. And I want to stop here. for a second again because I think I want the listeners to understand like all of these or most of these jobs, right, or opportunities only come from the hidden market. Don't assume that they're going to come from some hiring jobs or from hiring, you know, like job boards or whatever. Like it's really

who thinks about you when you're not in the room and who brings the relevant opportunities to you. So again, be really strategic about it. Manu, I love that. So they approach you because you're somehow well known for what you do. Okay. I found out afterwards that this hedge fund that I was also working for now and finding them talent, was super really good friends with this individual in a search firm, said, oh, you should hire this guy, he's sort of driven.

He seems really good, showing us really good candidates, unknown to me. So I went to another search firm, now where I had the opportunity to build a hedge fund practiced. right so now it was me and I could literally do technology, I could do accounting and finance or I could do front office

which is what I wanted to do tell us about so people who don't know so front office what do you mean front office do you mean hiring or so front office would also be technologists right which are really working with the traders to build technologies for the traders

to sort of feel trained better but for me it was a traders themselves, the portfolio managers. So I realized this is where the most value would be that I could see the difference where I hire a portfolio manager into a hedge fund. And once this person is successful, I know the sort of impact this individual was had at the phone. So this is interesting, Manu. So you understand where the value is created and you want to move as close as possible to where the value is created because you know where that's where the money is. Am I reading it correctly?

Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. I just want to be to make the most impact and I started working towards that. That's exactly what happened. And one of the key moments for me was, and you know, I always say luck plays a big role for all of us and no matter what career you choose, clearly. I would say this is one of my inspiring, life-changing stories that I think I'd like to share is I had a candidate that I call called at a bank. This is 2007. And 2008, we all know,

the financial crisis had happened. And this individual interviewed at a hedge fund back then and was given a few seven-figure salary, like a couple of million dollars. And here I am thinking, wow, this is going to be a significant fee, but more importantly, I've really made a PM higher now. Like, I have made it, right?

But I couldn't be more wrong because the candidate did not accept the offer. Right. Now, I was doing contingency recruiting. that means I get paid nothing, right? But again, I was thinking the long game. I took that candidate out for dinner. I'm still very close friends with him,

and I'll go through the journey. Because all I wanted to do was, now I realize that I can do this. There's proof of concept that I could hire a portfolio manager, right? So this person stayed back at his bank, and that bank went belly up without naming names, he went to another bank afterwards. I built his team at the new bank that he was in doing property trading.

Years later, he started a hedge fund that I invested in, and our relationship just grew, and we are really close friends now. Oh, my God, that's amazing story. Thinking a long time. That was one of the most inspiring things for me, because, you know, here I could have said, oh, my goodness, you know, I just, oh, I lost this fee. But I'm like, no, it's got the point.

The point is never the fee. The point is success. And the connection, and the connection, the trust that you're building. Trust is parallel, right? Because you want to be in a position where you are advising these individuals as somebody who knows where the market is for talent and also for career. Career advice. They are always looking for career advice.

and they also want to know who's doing well, right? They want to be connected to talent like themselves, right? So, and then, you know, I worked at a search firm for a couple of years, and one of my clients was a hedge fund where I was showing, you know, portfolio managers, and, you know, the founder called me one day, hey, I'd like to meet you, I'm looking for a head of recruiting, do you know somebody? I said, okay, at that time I was doing retained work where people pay you,

retainer when you work on a mandate. So I go and see him and he said, you know, I have never seen talent that you've shown me from anyone else, right? I really like you. I wanted to meet you. And I really would love you to join this hedge fund as head recruiting. So, you know, if you think about it, I was looking for a job but I arrived in this country.

But once I started, I actually never looked for a job afterwards. Exactly. Like everybody just opened the door. So it's amazing. Open the doors, you know. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to do that because it was a startup fund. But I said, you know what? I really have nothing to lose.

I've been taking risk all my life. I'm going to go for it. And I did. And I worked there for almost a decade at a multi-billion dollar fund, stock grow, hiding portfolio managers and key leadership. And all the start is still there. Before you move on, like I think we are talking about portfolio managers a lot. and they're the ones, maybe describe the role for a second,

they're the ones are making the bets, right? They're the ones are, like, what makes a portfolio manager good versus somebody that isn't good or mediocre? Like, what makes a difference? And maybe just for the listeners, what is it? Like, what do they do day to day? They're obviously managing risk. They're doing research, right?

I think what differentiates a good portfolio manager from the other one is strong risk discipline. I would say strong risk discipline. You know, position sizing, right? How they size risk. And also how composed they are during drawdowns. Drawdown is when, you know, invariably someone will lose money at some point. But how do they keep their composure?

I think it's really important. Yeah. How do they bounce back on that? How do you assess that when you're interviewing them before you go, we continue with this story? Like how do you assess if someone. somebody will freak out and start panicking or somebody can actually ride the wave. Because I think that's kind of what you're saying, right?

If somebody is not working well, am I going to flip, not sleep at night, you know, and start selling like crazy or do rash decisions versus just kind of like ride the way for a second to decide what to do next? Am I right? I'm underwriting a process, not a draft record. I mean, when hedge funds are hiring PMs, they want to see what the process for this particular portfolio manager is. Yeah, track record is important,

but really are betting on the individual and how good the process is. I think that is really important. And some of the things, you are very sort of rudimentary in a way. You don't want to hire folks who change jobs every couple of years, you know. You want to avoid that because there's always a story why somebody is switching jobs. in a few years. That becomes a bit of a pattern. So it's again, pattern recognition, right?

And, you know, the interview processes are obviously very intense, and they've been doing this for a long time. But I think me, for me in particular, I'm always looking for individuals who are passive and not looking for a job. It's very rare to come across individual who is at the top percentile, but is looking for the job.

is looking for a job, and that's just really luck, quite frankly, because they are head down working, right? So you sort of have to, you know, call them, meet them, talk about the role that you're working on. A lot of times they will give a referral if they trust you and like you enough, and if you're giving them good advice for where they are. You know, a lot of times I have actually walked away from people where I didn't want to represent them.

It's a two-way process. Yeah, because I always firmly believe when I am introducing someone to my client, you know, my reputation is on the line as well. This is your reputation, exactly. You know, on the line. If a individual, and of course there will be people who will not perform by the interviews or it's not a match, right? I won't make sure I minimize that as much as I can, right? And I think that's super important. So you should have your own process, but I also think these individuals that I'm meeting, I also evaluate them myself to try and see what the push factors are.

Right. Is it just about the money? Like, oh, I just want, you know, I think one of the mistakes that people do make is overpay for talent. Because, you know, you're looking at a track record and you say, oh, this person is making X amount of money year on year. and the person is like, you know, you want to 2x my comp or 3x my comp, you know, I think one shouldn't just throw money at a problem. One should have individuals joining them for the right reasons. It shouldn't be just because I'm just coming in for the money.

Usually it doesn't work out anyway. You know, at some point it's going to be broken because the person didn't really come in for the right reasons. And a person is not coming in for the right reasons. They're not going to perform well either. I want us to dive back in later for like how you assist. I think that's going to be really, really interesting. I want to go back to your story.

Like you're joining this big hedge fund. I'm sure you're learning so much because I think that's what makes you really special, right, Manu, because you kind of did, you've done the technology, you've done the HR, you've done the hiring, you've done, you know, like you've done kind of all the different roles. And now you learn also hedge funds, which makes you really special when you're, need to hire now for hedge fund, right? So, but you're in this hedge fund.

I'm sure you're learning a lot. Were there some interesting moments? Like usually we have these like either failures or challenges that are actually teaching us the most. Was there some moments there that were big lessons for you? Oh, yeah, quite a few. I think one of those that comes to my mind is, you know, the fund that I joined is a, was a systematic hedge fund or, you know, and.

which means they're all quarts. So every trading is done electronically. They're all models. There is no even interference. And for me to work there, and I was very lucky, just interacting with individuals who have a bachelor's or masters, in most cases a PhD in computer science, applied mathematics, distinguished backgrounds,

it was just such a learning experience for me, personally that I learned a lot, but also I realize the value of high EQ. Tell me more. Yeah. So, you know, IQ amazing, emotional, very, very important, extremely strategic. How you interact with these individuals is going to really set you apart, right? So when you are internal and I am calling a candidate outside, right, or I'm using headhunters as well,

they are going to look at me and say, okay, he works at this hedge fund. Of course he's going to say only the good things about them. He's not going to tell me anything else, right? So I, being the head of recruiting, was actually at a disadvantage sometimes where people will meet me. They will take my call because I worked at the head fund, but they will always be like, he's just, he's not going to tell me anything negative about this hedge fund where he works. So I had to overcome that. And I did, you know, and that's why, you know, when people say a lot of hedge funds,

sorry, a bit off-topic, but important, have internal recruiting teams. Why do they need headhunters outside? And I think that's something which is asked a lot, you know, these days. And I think because, yes, you are internally in the recruiting team, BD, your managing relationships, and sometimes you're hiring yourself, but being on the outside, there is, you know, the trust factor because people are like, you know, this person's seen a lot on the outside, they can advise me better than someone entirely. There's always that element, right? So I always say, you know, I worked at a hedge fund before that I was a headhunter and I have my own recruiting firm.

So sort of the experience is pretty significant here, right? So that way I connect with the talent quite well because I have all these, you know, you can call them stories and experiences I could share with them too. And, you know, it's fun. It's incredible. And I think I want to translate for a second what you just said to the listeners and make sure they really understand that because this is so cool. critical in any conversation that you're going to have, whether it's an interview, it's a client,

it's whatever it is, if you can start guessing what their basic objections are or what their biases are or what are the things that are scaring them in their head, even if the, and the most important things or maybe the riskiest things are always the things that are unspoken, right? It's the things that somebody has in their head, but they will not say it, right? And if you're not just going to squish it, right? They're going to always have that in their head. And I think that just so important that you just found a way to make that special. Am I understanding us correctly? That is true, yes. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, again, playing the long game, you know, trust of reputations, everything, you know, in the business. But I think also sort of being an

advisor, just like an agent, because, again, these individuals can be making, you know, some amid seven figures, at times eight figures. So they've done really well in life, right? And they are usually young, right? So sometimes they ask me for advice, hey, how should I invest personally? Yeah, what do you think? And, you know, you'll have those conversations too. So they are looking for intellect in an individual. They don't, yeah, they don't want to meet somebody and say, hey, I just want to go and out and have an amazing lunch and a drink. They can afford that themselves, really. They also value that time.

So they want to have a good intellectual conversation. They also want to know what a person does. You know, do you play sports, you know, do you have, do you do any charity work or what's your outlook on life? You know, I've had individuals ask me, hey, you know, I want to propose. to my girlfriend, you know, what advice do you have for me? Or what forbids sometimes I've had individuals who are like, you know, can you help me with an appointment with a doctor? I really need to see a really good doctor for my, with a spouse or a child or health-related

stuff. So you really have to become the agent. I always say, think about this as an agent. Be the Jerry McQuire, you know, absolutely love what you do and truly help people. without expecting something in return. So let me go there for a second because again, I think, so you've been in this hedge fund

and eventually you decide to start your own recruiting and this is where you become, you know, even more of that kind of an agent. Take me there for a second to that decision of, I'm going to, you know, like go on my own. And there's a scary piece here. Take me there for a second, no. For me, working in its amazing fund, learning a lot, it was just fantastic, really was.

I wanted to recruit for outside of systematic strategies. I wanted the ability to also help hedge funds, smaller funds, waste money. That's another area that I wanted to get into. And I couldn't really do that when I was working at that fund. And, you know, I always had an entrepreneurial mindset. that's why I really worked really well that has fun because even when I was working internally as employee when I was interviewing people or hiring individuals,

I was making sure as if I'm the owner. I always had that mindset, right? Think about this as like your own money that you're spending on talent or somebody you're interviewing. That's really how I always thought about it. Okay. So for me, for my own evolution, I knew I had to take that risk, right?

And, you know, I always say, have no fear. But take me there. Like you're thinking of this. You, I assume they pay you pretty well, but you want to go on your own. Like there's, and sometimes fear can be numbing. Like, where's there a moment? Like, am I kidding? What am I doing? Like, was it, like, take me, how did you go through that fear? Have self-belief, you know? Be a dreamer. You know, be a dreamer. Just, just go out there. I mean, the fear is always there. It's there even today. You know, were you like, oh my goodness, what did I just do six years ago? But I was six years ago.

I left that job and I started my own well. That was six years ago. But yes, you know, I think you have to have a vision. And more importantly, knowing oneself, right, I was always confident that I could survive. but the question was not survival. It was always, I want to thrive. I want to be the best version of myself, right? So for me, it was really important that I did this.

If I did not do it, I would have regretted it. Failure was not an option, and failure is again, part of life. It will happen, but it's really how you evolve as an individual from failure, right? So that, I think, was important and that's how high to terror. That's why I named the firm pre-evidence. So tell me about, like, the first clients, because sometimes that's really hard, right? And there's stress and can I do this? And can I survive on this?

Like, take me there for a second. What were some hard moments, Manu, that shook you a little bit. And what did they teach you? One of the hardest moments for me was when I left the hedgeback side of my firm. A lot of the phone calls that were always returned earlier were not being returned anymore. So, you know, you realize very quickly, it was not you all the time. It was the seat that you were in. So good.

So that's something I realized. Yeah. Early on, some of the individuals used to call me or return by calls, it's just not there. But then also, having said that, there was so many incredible people who, also help me and supported me and they still do. And, you know, you have a client. I think the best advice I would say is don't think of having multiple clients when you start a business. Think of starting with a client, but do so well that you diversify within your own client,

that you knock your socks off. So be targeted. I think that's something which is super important, right? So for me, I was really focused and still is very much the same mentality because the grass is always green on the other side. So tell me, so you find it. Yeah, like tell me a little bit about that starting journey because everybody's freaking out. Like we have a lot of people listening to the show.

They're trying to think, should I go as entrepreneurship, should I not? And it's scary. It's scary. Can I pay the bills? What if it doesn't work? What if no clients will say yes? Right? So tell me there, like take me there for a second. Yes.

Yes. You know, it was COVID when I started started. So a lot of the hiring was being done, you know, remotely. Yeah. You know, so I was like, wow, okay, the timing couldn't have been better or worse, but we'll just find out. But, you know, quite frankly, the challenge was really during COVID, because when I started the business was the meetings were not there, right?

In person were few and far in between. So that was a challenge and that was scary. But again, it worked out. You know, luck had to be on your side. So I think it just took us a couple of months. Luckily, he also had staff with me. And, you know, we had a really good first year of the business. You know, we had never look back.

But I think challenging challenges to your early question with having a new client or building new clients is again trust factor and market intelligence. So I think you want to speak to your client as an advisor as well. You want to advise them on a particular candidate. You want to advise them what's happening in the broader market. You want to add value in multiple areas stemming from talent itself. Okay. So I think that's also really important.

And you also want to tell your client if you have an opinion about a candidate which is negative, don't try and not share that with your client. Share your concerns. They appreciate that. You know, I said walking away from talent, I've done that where I'm like,

I don't wish to represent this individual. I don't think I feel comfortable. Or sometimes even in the process where I feel a candidate is not acting in good faith. I will actually tell my client, I say, you know, I have sort of reservation about this candidate for these reasons. So you may want to just, you know, sort of dig deeper here.

Dig deeper or walk away. Amazing. So what eventually made, and when you say client, I want to make sure that the listeners understand, you're actually made the hedge funds that will eventually want you. And then once they say, yes, find us a portfolio manager. Now you're going to look for individuals to match, right? But what made those people actually accept your phone calls? Again, now you don't have the seat.

You don't have the big reputation of a billion dollar, whatever hedge fund behind you. So what makes people now take those calls? And how do you create a hook that is good enough for them to say, you know what, Manu, yeah, go find us a portfolio manager? I would say I was actually lucky enough. Even when I left the firm, I knew, you know, hedge fund, hedge funds, they wanted to work with me.

You know, some wanting to hire me internally. So they were more than happy to give me a chance to go and recruit for them in a particular area. So that's really how it started. So I was fortunate enough that I got that chance. But again, you get that chance you have to build on it. So I don't really have to go out and look for business as such, really. That was given right off the bat. But then the hard way.

is to sustain it and sort of build a private record right from the start. So tell me if somebody is like, I'm sure some people are listening and saying, what on earth is this role that makes millions of dollars? Can you explain to somebody, like how does somebody become a portfolio manager? What kind of experience do they have? What kind of education do they have? Like, how do they become a portfolio manager? and maybe I want to tap a little bit into that risk discipline that you talked about in the process,

like what makes them great, what kind of experience or emotional intelligence or like what made them better? But first, how did they even become a portfolio manager? Yeah, so I'll explain to you for systematic portfolio managers, Qants, where I worked at a systematic catch fund, they again, they build models out of data, and they would have the computer science, physics, mathematics, degree, and they love making models. And then these models are again translated into automated strategies that they make. Jim Simmons' Renaissance technology, you know, the late founder of Rentech was a pioneer, and there are multiple other funds now. We do so better work. I think, you know, first is education, and then you get in into one of the other,

in technology, and then you're hired by a systematic hedge fund, or you know, you apply to systematic hedge funds, get in there as a quantitative researcher, learn how to build models, be successful, and then give it a chance to be a portfolio manager. That's on the systematic side. On your discretionary side, again, these individuals go to a great university, they go into a invest in banking or private equity, and then they are headhunted out of their by hedge funds through their early programs. And that's really, people love investing, right? I think what a portfolio manager does is, you know, in market neutral way, is make money irrespectly where the market is

going. That's why you're market neutral, right? But you really truly want to be, obviously, obsessed with what you do. And most of the successful PMs are really the ones who love what they do and are obsessed with being invested. Yeah. Right. And maybe take us a little bit behind the closed doors of like how do these hedge fund evaluate them? Because it's not about the skills. It's not just about where they studied. Like it has to be about more than that. So some of it is maybe results if they do have a lot of experience. But what if they don't? Like how does somebody get a chance, get into that?

For experience hires, right, they're not just looking at a CB. They are looking at, they're not looking into CV now. They're really looking at their career where they are, what the process they have, right? Are they a good fit, right? Are they looking to maybe leave for the right reasons? Right. And how have they performed all the last few years, not from just, hey, they've made money, but what were the reasons for them, right?

Was it just pure luck? Do you have to kind of dig into the process, right? Or was it, you know, there is significant alpha they have that they can sort of, you know, translate into the next shop? So I think they are always looking for these, you know, deep-dike info into an interview and talent. It's not just a CV, you know, or just education. They are looking a lot more than that. How technical someone is.

Yeah. How have they hired their team? Are they going to be a talent magnet when they join us? Do other people want to work for them? Are they going to be an amazing role model for the future? So for hedge funds hiring a P, you know, even an analyst for that matter, they're making sure that there's a high chance as analyst becomes a portfolio manager later on. Or this portfolio manager has the ability to hire really well and train individuals under them.

That's really important, very critical. It's fascinating, Manu. Do you have maybe like a sneak peek into your world of some, like a question or some question or behaviors that you found that actually give you a good window to who might be successful or not? I think one of the ones that I really use, it sort of works for me, is, hey, tell me what was your biggest drawdown, where did you lose the most money, which, you know,

and a lot of times people don't remember. And to me, I was like, how could you not know when you had your biggest drawdown? I'll always slip in that question. I like that. Sometimes they don't have an answer. You made money last year. What you made money last year? What's your realize shoppery show?

And if they should have this answer immediately, right? And if they don't, I always had a question. It's a red fact. Yeah. I used it. I love that because I asked people, where was one of the hardest, you know, most challenging situation that you were in and how did you get out of it?

And if all they have is some kind of like, I don't know, this guy didn't like me or whatever. I'm like, oh, way, you did not face anything in life. So you're not going to do well. Yeah, I totally hear you. Also, when people are not doing well, you know, the victim mentality, I try and to stay away from people, victim mentality. Oh, I was under this person, didn't work out. This, they always have an excuse. It's never their fault.

It's never their fault. It's never their fault. And I don't know somebody just own up and say, you know what, I made a mistake. I could have researched this better, a much, much better way to sort of acknowledge your own self or, you know, having having the ability to say, yeah, I made a mistake. And that's okay, you know, but there's always this, oh, the markets were bad. okay, okay, not the markets were really good. That was on the other side of the trade. Oh, come on.

And what do you think are the biggest mistakes from firm, on the firm side, actually, when they're hiring at these highest levels? Like, what do you think they make? What kind of mistakes do you see the hedge funds make? Overpaying for talent is one. Second is sometimes people get overlooked, which I believe,

you know, for reasons, which could be either in, you know, college that they went to, perhaps, or they didn't do well a critical year. And then it's hard to sell negative performance. I totally agree. But I think everyone deserves a second chance. And a lot of times,

a lot of times these people do reinvent themselves and are successful. You know, so I think one should not just look at, oh, my goodness, this individual was so successful last year or last two years, or this person was successful. but now they're not successful in the previous year. I think one should look into it a bit more deeper than just saying maybe not a right for us.

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing that this is what you get to do, Manu. And I think since then, I mean, you also get to live an incredible life. You travel all the time. We met in India, you know, cycling. Like some crazy. That was fun.

That was exceptional. And do you think there was something that maybe most people don't necessarily know, but that you went through that made you into the person that you are today? Yeah, I don't want to be the victim. No, I think being in a contingency recruiting environment early on in my career, sort of made me realize what not to do. And I think that was really important for me to have that experience

where, you know, relationships weren't really given a lot of credit. And one was sort of thought of having volume, over quality. And to me, I think that was really important for me to kind of go through that and learn from that experience. On the other hand, I also say, you know, if you believe truly in your ability to do something really well,

one should leave no stone unturned in pursuing your dream or what you do you want to do. Yeah, no matter what happens, no matter how many setbacks you get, you keep trying and eventually things will work out, but just don't give up. Don't give up. How do you not give up, though, Manu? Like, how do you not give up when it's hard or when there's rejection or fear of maybe

I'm not going to make the paycheck or this is not working out? Like, how do you not give up? Well, I think one should have the intelligence where then they realize this is not the right of job career for me and you move on. But if you're doing the right thing, right, which is things don't work out because, because of X, Y, Z, you're out of your control. Then you don't give out.

If you are doing the right thing. So for me, I didn't give up because I had portfolio managers who were getting offers. Now, if I couldn't close them, and sometimes you don't close them, the clients can close them, it happened, but at least there's activity, right?

So I knew there was a proof of constant. Now, if I was not going, if I was not even going to have a PM who was going to get an offer or P and Zunos are speaking to me, I shouldn't be here. You know, then yes, I should be doing something else. Right. So those setbacks will always be there. If I can be right 55% of the time, that's a great benchmark to me.

Not just in the casino, but even otherwise. Do you have like a habit or something that helps you get back into? and I'm actually like you remind me a question we had on our YouTube. Usually I answer it at the end of the conversation, but we can kind of answer it a little bit together. So Robin asked, how do you keep going when you feel defeated? I have my own things that help me,

but I wonder what is it for you? Like is there things that you do? Like I need to hike. I need to get outside. I need, you know, like I have certain things that I need to do to take care of myself and put my own oxygen mass. on. What do you do, Manu? Well, I work out. I work out, you know, six days a week,

if not seven. I do an activity every morning. I also, when I wake up in the morning, I don't look at my phone. I just sound. I don't look at my phone for the first 20 or 30 minutes. I give time for myself, maybe mindful meditation or thinking of, you know, gratitude. I think it's real. I think we should all wake up and be sort of grateful that we get to wake up. You know, in just simple things, right? I think it will help me. I don't let negative talks come into me, even if they are there. I just sort of avoid them and I'm like, it's just a thought, get rid of it.

And, you know, again, you can't control everything, but what you can control is how you feel. So I choose to feel positive most of the time, if not all the time. if not all the time. You know, I want to laugh at that. I always say, I'm unbeatable. I can't be beat. You know, I'm just going to keep going as long as I can. So that's, I think, to me, is sort of really helped me.

Yeah. But what taught you this? Like, what made you? Like, usually there's a moment that needed to teach us to be like this, no? I think that was happening in childhood for me. I grew up in India in a very comfortable household My father had a job

My mother had a job And they were self-made My parents But we were very actually We were very comfortable In India, we had a house We had cars And we had help

It was just everything was really pristine But when I was a teenager I was 12 years old My dad was fired from his job and financially we had a very tough time

and I could see how they were holding it together and we were really happy and they shielded us from it it was really beautiful to see how my parents sort of reacted to that but I that never left me you know where

things changed in the household you know whether we didn't have cars anymore but everybody was still smiling it was all very positive. But that sort of had an effect on me where how things can sort of be taken away from you pretty quickly too. That sort of drove me, even at a very young age, to be an entrepreneur. You know, I always had that mindset at that age. So even in college, in Scotland, I used to I had a side hustle. I used to go to people's houses on the penny saver and pick up,

all the things that they didn't want literally at a pound or pennies or a few pounds and I should sell them to students. I had that business even as a student, it was very successful. And that part-time jobs, like all of you, right? It was just hustle. Like simple hustle, I always say, you know?

It's such a valuable thing to do, which is the ability to hustle. And I've almost had that as a teenager. That was a life-changing known for me. Yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. And maybe I'll, you know, I want to end for a second with, like, if you would go back to maybe your younger self, whether it is that kid in India or when you just hustled and, you know, find the job in Macy's and nobody else, like, what would you wish somebody told you earlier on? Don't worry, it'll all work out.

It always does. it's supposed to work out in certain ways. Just don't be scared. Everything's happening for a reason. You're going to learn from it. And it's all written. It's going to happen. Just believe in it.

Just believe in it. No matter what happens, just believe in yourself. And yeah, so if I'd tell myself 20 years ago, I would have just said, yeah, you'll be fine, my friend. So that's what I tell other people too. Just keep doing what you're doing and don't fret the small stuff. I think that's very important.

And I'll go back to this. So don't fret the small stuff, which means don't gossip, right? Don't think of what the other person's doing. Just focus on yourself. So I always find it really interesting when people ask me, what's your competition? I said, I have no idea.

I'm just working and competing with myself. I want to be the better version of myself every single day. So I really don't know what the competition is. And I'm sure it exists. And it's amazing. I have no idea. I'm just focusing myself at how I can be better every single day. Wow.

And so what would you, like if somebody's listening, where do they find you? What do you want them to know? Tell us more. Well, yeah. Pre-Evance advisors, you know, you could always email me. I have LinkedIn. I don't have a lot of social media presence,

but that's the easiest way to reach out to me. And, yeah, and, you know, you can always, if you want to talk about charity, reach out to me. That's a big part of my life. Education, environment, healthcare, the three courses that I'm very passionate about. And so, yeah, if anybody wants to reach out to me any of these three courses, yeah.

I'm the guy. Incredible. And we'll put your links down below the podcast. But Manu, this was so, so, so good. Thank you for sharing and teaching us and all the insights. That's incredible. My pleasure. Hey, I hope you really enjoyed this conversation.

And I want to now answer the beautiful question we received from Robin on the Leap Academy Wizilana Goulon YouTube channel. So first of all, don't forget, add your questions there. Go to Leap Academy with Ilana Golan, YouTube channel, and add your questions there because you have a chance that I'm going to pick your question and answer it here. And today we're going to answer the question from Robin on how do you keep up when you feel defeated?

Such a beautiful question. So first of all, share this. If anybody in your life needs to hear this, there's a lot of people going through some really hard things right now. So please do share this. Now, the way I look at it, for me, these are four points. So the very first thing is to recognize the fact that something is not okay. And I lived in a place where I used to just tuck emotions, tuck, tuck, tuck, tuck,

the emotions and hide from them. And the truth is this is when they come it up at like three in the morning and just gush you with this anxiety and fear and all the feelings are just coming in the middle of the night. So first of all, just start recognizing when those feelings come, acknowledge them. It's almost like a puppy. If you give it attention, it will go away. But if you don't give it attention, we'll keep on nagging.

So give it attention. Say, who, how do I feel? Where do I feel it? Oh, okay, I feel it here. Ooh, okay. I can now cope with it, right? But recognize it. The other thing is find your peace.

For me, it's hiking. I need to hike almost every day to find my peace from time of time. It will, you know, something will happen. I can't do it, et cetera. But in general, I know that I'm a better human, a better mom, a better business leader, a better spouse, whatever it is, when I hike. Right. So find your peace, whatever it is, meditation, journaling, dancing, yoga, whatever that is for you. find it because once you have your peace, you have a place to anchor yourself. The other thing is like surround yourself by people that are lifting you up. There's always going to be the people that suck you down. And sometimes the hardest thing when we want to chase success is to let go of the people that maybe are not serving us anymore and start finding the circles that will lift us up. So, and the other thing is a jar cannot read its own label.

You have to surround yourself by people that will shine the light on where you're great. The last thing that I'll say is we are so as driven people, we're kind of sometimes bad about reminding ourselves about all the amazing things that we've done. We sometimes are really good about reminding ourselves of the things where we failed, and we didn't make it and the rejection. So be very mindful almost every day. If you can't do it every day, amazing. But remind yourself to celebrate the little wins.

Remind yourself of the things you did achieve. Remind yourself of the things you did work well because it's so easy to be all consumed by the failure, by the defeat, by the rejection, and it becomes all-consuming and it takes you on the downward spiral. So force yourself to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What did I achieve in the last year?

What did I achieve in the last five years? What did I achieve in the last 10 years? What if I achieved throughout my life that I'm so, proud of. And we're going to, that's going to help you go through these emotional roller coasters. And again, I hope this podcast is helping you as well. So keep on binging it. See that other people are going through some really, really hard times as well. And the only difference is when you can chase your dream and you can continue when other people are stopping. That's when you're going to live alive. Everybody else can only dream of. So let's go. Have an incredible.

rest of the week. Lots of love.