Leap Academy with Ilana Golan - Turning Pain into Purpose: How Anne Beiler Built a Pretzel Empire from Nothing

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Before building a global snack empire, Anne Beiler’s dream was to have her own family like the loving one she grew up in. Like a fairytale, she met the man of her dreams. But years later, she found herself stuck in a place of darkness after tragically losing her daughter and enduring years of abuse. Through this pain, however, Anne found a new purpose. With no money, no formal education, and no business plan, she started the iconic pretzel brand, Auntie Anne’s. In this episode, Anne shares powerful lessons on resilience, leadership, and embracing life’s obstacles. Anne Beiler is the founder of Auntie Anne's, the world's largest pretzel franchise, with over 2,000 locations in more than 25 countries. She now dedicates her time to speaking and writing, teaching others how to overcome tough times, be strong leaders, and find purpose in life, even through pain. In this episode, Ilana and Anne will discuss: - How Anne’s background shaped her work ethic and values - Scaling her pretzel stand into a global brand - Balancing personal pain with building a business - Staying grounded under pressure - Why your people are your greatest asset - Lessons Anne learned while growing her franchise - How vulnerability became her strength - Anne’s advice for thriving through tough times - Building a lasting legacy through business - The power of purpose in achieving success - Why authentic leadership matters  - And other topics… Anne Beiler is a self-made entrepreneur and the founder of Auntie Anne’s, the globally recognized pretzel franchise. Raised in an Amish-Mennonite family, Anne faced devastating personal challenges, like losing her daughter and enduring years of abuse. She started her business to support her husband’s vision of providing free family counseling. Despite having no business plan or formal education, she scaled Auntie Anne’s into a multimillion-dollar business. Her franchise now spans over 25 countries with over 2,000 locations. Today, Anne speaks globally on overcoming adversity, leadership, and the role of faith in business.  Connect with Anne: Anne’s Website: https://auntieannebeiler.com/  Anne’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/auntieannebeiler/  

That tragedy changed me from the inside out. It's been many years ago, but the grief was so deep. I believe as a successful entrepreneur, we have to persevere. We had no capital, we had no money, we had no formal education, and we had no business plan. The purpose is what kept me on the high road. Your people, not your building, not your advertising program. Your people are your greatest asset. I know that's why Auntie Anne's was very successful,

because I love my people. Never underestimate the power of your will. So today I have such a special podcast for you. Everybody knows this brand, I believe, Auntie Anne's. So Anne Baylor right here with me, she's the founder of Auntie Anne's, the world's largest pretzel franchise. And it has right now over 2000 locations, 50 states, 25 countries, like my kids love it. But before rising to success and your story is so inspiring, you were in a very dark place. And I want us to take you a little bit to your childhood and how you grew up. Thank you so much for having me on your show today. Well, growing up in a very secure and idyllic, when I compare it to the way life is today for many people, I didn't realize this when I was a little girl, but I grew up in an Amish farm in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

My parents were old order Amish, meaning horse and buggy, no electricity and whatever you know about the Amish. That's how my parents grew up. And then I grew up in that until I was about three. And my mom and dad, then we moved on up. We got involved in the Amish Mennonite, which is a black car Amish. At that point, that's what they were called. Meaning we could have a car, but it had to be black. And my dad could farm with a tractor, which he was ecstatic about, instead of horses. And we were able to have electricity and a telephone in our home. But we didn't have the extras like TV or radio or any of that. So growing up in that home, when I think about it today, it sometimes brings me to tears

because I just realized how good that was for me and my, there was eight of us kids, five boys and three girls, mom and dad who loved us. They taught us about faith, farming, hard work, family, community, and a lot of all the things that we needed to really get through life. We were poor farmers and mom and dad didn't have very much. We milked cows and we had about a hundred acres. So there was a constant nonstop hard work, you know, almost every day as far back as I can remember being just a little girl. We would milk the cows and I would carry milk in little blue buckets my dad bought for me because the stainless steel ones that we first started with were too much for me. So he bought two plastic buckets. And I'll never forget that because now I could carry two buckets

and it was pretty easy and just learning how to work. But in my heart, our culture was very much about mom, dad, the kids. And it was really important for us to please our parents and to simply be obedient. They were not abusive. They were very kind, but we all had jobs to do. And our life was very, very disciplined. So as a little girl, I was the only one out of eight kids that had allergies. And back in the day, allergies, what was that? No, it was called hay fever because we lived on the farm. And my mom and dad knew that being out in the field and in the garden in the summertime in particular, also in the fall, that I had these allergic reactions. And because of that, I ended up in the house baking and helping my mom cook.

So I was the kitchen helper. And while the rest of them either, you know, maybe cleaned the house or worked in the garden or worked on the farm with the crops with my dad. I mean, I did some of the others too, but mainly I was in the house. I love my mama. She was so kind. She was never bossy. She never yelled or screamed at me.

I just watched what mom did and I followed her. She taught me how to bake and how to cook really good meals for my whole family. And as an 11, 12-year-old little girl, I learned how to bake pies and cakes for my mom and dad so that they could take them to the farmer's market the next day. And so I come home from school on a Thursday night, and my mom had a note on the kitchen counter and said, Anna Betts. My name is Anna. I changed my name when I went to school. I wanted to be called Ann, but she called me Anna Betts. And tonight I want you to bake. And so I would pick anywhere from 60 to 70 pies and cakes by myself

in the basement of our little farmhouse in Christiana, Pennsylvania. And I remember going down those steps. And very often, very often, I would cry because mom was not there. She was at market and mom was always somewhere in the house or in the garden, except for that one night. And that was for about two years I did that. And I missed my mom. And I knew I had a big task to do. And I wanted to please my parents. And so I did.

But I remember going down the steps into this dark cellar that we had in the farmhouse. And I would get to work and bake all of that from scratch. And the next morning, my dad would come down to the basement and he and I together then after wake up in the morning, I'd go down with him and we would put the pies and the cakes in what we called pie cases at that time. My dad would always, in Pennsylvania Dutch, he would say, die boi koek, koek, goed. He would say, these pies look good. And that was all I needed. I never got a penny or a quarter or a dollar, but I got my dad's approval. And that was my reward. What I learned there during those years

was perseverance. What I believe as a successful entrepreneur, we have to persevere. And I believe that perseverance simply means you do what other people don't feel like doing. And if you can do that, then you might become a successful entrepreneur. And I learned that as a little girl. And I'm so grateful to my mom and dad. I need my kids to listen to this. Because I just want them to make up their bed and that's hard. It's a different world. I know. I know. I've raised my own kids and we did not live on a farm. So I understand that. Yeah. So you learn to really work hard, which you allude to in your book. And we'll talk about your amazing book, Overcome and Lead, which is fantastic. And it's so inspiring.

And we'll talk more about that. But you talk about this hard work that you had to go through. But you also talk about the fact that from childhood, you're supposed to grow to be a family person. You didn't grow up with these entrepreneurship dreams or these big visions, I think, and goals. Like, am I right? Oh, absolutely. We sat around the table in our kitchen, all 10 of us, three times a day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. There's no excuse. If you're out in the corner of the field, you're plowing the field. Everybody gets called into dinner, breakfast, lunch, or dinner three times a day,

and we never start eating until everybody's sitting at the table. And so, sitting around the table all of those years, I never once heard the word career. I think maybe we talked about what do we want to do when we grow up? I don't know. But it was really all about family. And it was all about making your own way in life. We would sit around the table and that's where I learned how to communicate. I learned how to be kind. I learned how to share. I learned how to sometimes I had to raise my voice because nobody was paying attention to me. So around the table, we did life together there. But there was not one time was the word career or you got to go to high school or where are we going to college? I get that.

We live in a very different world now. And it's not a right or wrong world. It's just the world I lived in. What I discovered though, during those years, and as I've had many years now to look back to that time, and honestly, I know that my parents gave me everything I needed to make it in life. They gave me the tools I needed to weather the storms of life. And as we will talk probably later, there was many storms, trauma, tragedy in my life. But what my mom and dad taught me around that table, they took us to church.

We talked about God. We talked about work. We talked about our neighbors. We talked about school. We talked about life around that table. And they gave us, all eight of my siblings are very, very successful. But we learned it growing up on the farm because mom and dad were the shining example, even though they were just farmers. But my dad never had a lot of money, but they sent us to

private school because his family, his children were number one to him. And he did whatever he could to give us a good eighth grade education in a private school. And so they gave us what we needed to weather the storms in life. I'm just so grateful for that. And I'm getting chills just listening to you. So take me a little bit forward to Anne and where you grew up. Going into my teen years, the happiest years of my life. So it's really hard for me to relate to kids that have the worst years of their life. They're teens and they should be. You're launching into adulthood. And I just feel like mom and dad

gave me the boundaries I needed, also the freedom I needed to become mature and become an adult. And so my only goal and my only dream in life really was to find a really good man, to have my own family, just like mom and dad, and to be a good girl and to be a good wife and hopefully a good mom one day. I mean, this sounds pretty simple, right? And I found the man of my dreams when I was 16 years old, Jonas Beiler. He was tall, dark, I mean, dark-complected. His mom had Indian blood in her, and so he's very dark-complected and very tall and very gentle, very kind.

But man, he worked like a dog. He just worked. His goal was he grew up in the Amish culture as well. So culturally, we were very compatible. And when we got married, I was 19 and Jonas was 21. And people were like, oh, how good to get married so young. Well, that's just what we did. It was no big deal to marry very young. And even today, the Amish community, they marry any person maybe 18 to 25. There's a range there. And they know, they know when they marry, mom and dad are not going to hand them anything. You're going to have to make it on your own. And I'll never forget that because we never had much, but I could always ask mom or dad for something and they would always help out. But when I got married, I knew that I got my own life to live. And so my

husband was Amish and he left the Amish culture as well and he became a mechanic. And so we lived with very little, never made much money and we married. And so we just felt like life was wonderful. We adjusted very well to each other and we wanted maybe four or five kids. And so we were on our way to living our dream. Right. And then life had different plans for you. That's right. That's right. So life was going as we'd planned and I felt like I was a pretty good girl. And I always felt like if I'm a good girl, that God will be very happy with me. He'll be pleased with me. And that was probably not very good theology back in the day. But I felt like if I live a really good life and I follow Him, then He'll bless my life, right? And so we were

in this great life. And on a Monday morning, you could never be prepared for a tragedy of any kind, really. And I'd never experienced tragedy in our home. And on a beautiful Monday morning, we had two daughters at that time. And sweet Angela was 19 months old in 12 days. And she walked out of our double-wide trailer on a Monday morning. She went up to my mom, which she did almost every morning during the week. And it was just around the corner from our house. We lived in the country.

And between my house and my mom's house, there was a barn where my dad was making stone siding. And my sister would drive a front-end loader and load and unload sand. And that particular morning, my daughters were walking up to my mom's, and my sister looked around to see if any of the kids were around, and she didn't see them as she packed up her front-end loader. And when she turned to get forward,

she had accidentally run over our 19-month-old Angela Joy. Angela was killed instantly that day. And, you know, it's been many years ago, but that tragedy changed me from the inside out. I knew that Angela made her ascent into heaven. I have no doubt about that. But the grief was so deep, and I almost felt like,

why? Why did this happen to us? I mean, we were doing everything just about right. Life was good and we were doing the best we could and never had big fights or we had no trauma in our family. I mean, everybody just got along and everybody worked hard. And so that really put me in a place of,

I remember that day, I began to make my gradual descent into a world of spiritual I remember that day, I began to make my gradual descent into a world of spiritual confusion. Why, God, did you allow this to happen? And emotional pain, which I had never experienced before. We didn't have the vocabulary as husband and wife, and Jonas and I grieved really, really hard together for some time. We had great support from our community and our church and our family and our friends. And it was incredible. And for the first month, things were going pretty well.

And what happens after tragedy? You're at home and everybody else, their life continues. That's the way it should be, right? And so Jonas and I then began to drift apart. Because you're stuck with it. You're still stuck with the trauma. Yes. I didn't understand how long the grief would be.

I thought that, I don't know, I guess in a few weeks or a few months, maybe I would start to feel better. But instead of feeling better, I couldn't move forward. I pretended. I mean, I lived life as if nothing happened. I kept going to, you know, I was involved in my community and my church and had many friends and all of that. I kept living as if nothing had happened. I didn't want to talk about Angie because I wouldn't tempt to talk to me

about it, but people don't know what to say. So anyway, it just became very awkward for me and for Jonas as well. And we began to drift apart. We stayed together, continued life. But as time went on, I didn't want to leave the house, but I did. I just didn't understand why I can't get over this. Now I understand many, many years later. I've gone through it now. I'm through it, but I still feel the emotion of it.

But I'm not mad at anyone. I have resolved that with God. I'm at peace with myself and with my husband and with God. So soon after that, I went to, my pastor invited me to his office for, he said, just come, you know, let's talk about this. And I was like, wow, I'd never been invited to his office ever. So I went to talk to him and we talked. And before I left his office, he took advantage of me physically and it stunned me and it startled me. And I honestly did not understand what just happened. I didn't know anything about sexual abuse. I knew nothing about that. And so once again, you know, I'm traumatized by what happened.

As I left his office, though, I made a choice. Listen, the choice that we make today is the life that we've lived tomorrow. You just can't get away from that. And I didn't see it like that back in the day, right? But I made a choice that day that I would never tell anyone what he just did because who would believe me? Who would I tell? I just felt like the only option was to keep it a secret. And so that day, I made a choice to keep a secret. And what that one secret did over time, I found myself in a very, very dark world, in a world that I knew nothing about. But what I believe, this is my experience,

is when you enter the dark world, and you can go there in many ways. In my case, it was through sexual abuse. That one secret kept me in abuse for almost seven years. And you can say, well, why? Why do you stay there? My answer to that is, if you've been there, you understand. If you haven't been there, it's really hard to explain why you stay in that place. But what I do know in my belief is that when I entered the dark world, I truly believe that Satan himself gave me every tool that I needed to stay there. And in my brokenness and in my despair and in my sadness, in my sorrow, in my grief, I just thought that's the only option for me.

So I stayed there for almost seven years. I think for you, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but the pastor is a big entity. It's an entity of God. It's an entity of belief. It's an entity of doing right. So it's very hard to move it to actually someone who is doing wrong. You're exactly right. What's very sad to me is that it keeps happening today.

It's called abuse of power. Whether it's a pastor, whether it's your boss, it happens in so many arenas, you know, and yet we feel, I mean, I felt safe in the church. I grew up there and it was an Amish Mennonite church, but that we left that and we went to a charismatic church and the pastor that came into that church, we didn't really know him. He wasn't from the Amish Mennonite community. He was from, actually from Texas and he came to Lancaster County, Pennsylvania and became our pastor. So whether it's in your school or your business

or in your church or wherever you are and many of your listeners, I am sure one in every three women have been abused either as a child or somewhere in their teen years. That's one third of the population of women. And that's why Atlanta, that's why I have to tell my story

because I want people to know there's a better way. So when your voice is stolen, you become a victim. So it's like you go from victim and you can stay there your whole life. Actually, you can. Then number two is then I became a survivor and I felt pretty good about myself. Like, oh, wow, I survived.

But then where I want to live and where I live today is I live an overcoming life. Victim is like, man, it's dark there. Surviving is like, wow, I made it. I'm alive. And then even in that, we can be somewhat... You're not the best version of yourself, right? You're a survival. That's fantastic.

I love the way you said that. And that I have worked really hard. I'm grateful that I can actually say I've lived the overcoming life today. So I'm no longer a victim. I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just telling my story. And I want other people to know that you can go from victimhood to survival to overcoming. And that's an incredible

story. And again, I don't want to sit there, but I will say to anybody listening, I do think that it's a lot more common than we want to think. I personally have a commander that had their own thing, but again, he was in a place of power and I was afraid to speak up. So I think we all have our stories or a lot of us have a story. And I think it is important to, first of all, understand that, no, it's not okay and it's not your fault. And there is a way to be on this. There is a way to escape. And you know what? The only way, this may sound kind of narrow, but honestly, what we do to escape is we become alcoholics. We go to drugs.

We become sex addicts. I think that there's many things. We become workaholics. There's so many things that we do to be pissy, to cover up or to try to remove the pain from us. I got to keep moving. I understand that because that the pain from us. I got to keep moving. I understand that because that's what I did. I had to keep moving. So I want to propose to you that the only way out, the only way to catch your voice pack again is to begin talking. You got to start talking.

And then you say, well, who am I going to talk to? Well, look around. Find someone that you completely trust. I don't recommend going to the bar and hanging out there and telling everybody everything. That's not what I'm talking about. Although there may be some relief there. But I'm talking about, I am sick and tired of my life. I am sick and tired of my voice. I feel like I can't say anything. Anybody, I've got to carry this secret.

You know, our bodies are not meant to carry that burden, that secret. We were created to be open, authentic, vulnerable. And I declare that the best you, the very best you, the very best, the real you, is the best gift that you can give to your world, your family, your community, your world. But what we do when we find ourselves with trauma and tragedy is we just get smaller and smaller and smaller. And the only way to get bigger and for you to be able to learn how to speak again is

to take the risk and find someone that you can talk to that will listen to you. One of the best gifts that we can give to our fellow sojourners is to listen to them. God gave us two ears and one mouth. Voila, what do you mean? I mean, I'm just saying we were created to listen, but we also have a voice and he created that so that we can speak. And I believe that we can speak our way out of our darkness. Absolutely agree. And I think you talk about this took you into a very deep hole, like a downhill spiral for years. How did you get out of it? Because it's a beautiful story. By the end of the seven years, there's three things, maybe four things that I knew for sure.

I hated who I'd become, number one. I was the little Amish girl back on the farm baking pies for mom and dad who felt really satisfied and very pleased with who I was. So I had walked so far away from that. And I prayed a lot. And I would often say, how did I get here? It was a mystery to me.

How can that be? How could I have lived such a good life? And I find myself in this dark hole where I can't get out. And the three things I hated about myself was I knew and I believed all the lies. That I was unlovable. I hated me. was I knew and I believed all the lies, that I was unlovable. I hated me, so obviously I'm unlovable. I'm unforgivable.

And I knew that I was unchangeable. I was stuck in this place. And I just knew that if I ever told anyone, so this was seven years of silence. Nobody knew because in that place as well, you don't told anyone. So this was seven years of silence. Nobody knew because in that place as well, you don't trust anyone. So why would I tell anyone? So it was one Monday morning. I weighed 90 pounds. I was so mad at me. I hated me. I was mad at my perpetrator, but I didn't know how to release. I didn't know how to leave him. But my anger, I used my anger for good that morning because I felt Holy Spirit within me say, and get up and go tell. And that's what I did. Now, let me tell you, that was not in my plans. I just thought I would eventually somehow, I don't know, feel better.

I don't know. I just felt like I could do all of this on my own. But you know what? We're really not meant to walk alone. We're really connected or created to connect. And so that morning, I went to see my husband at his body shop, and my heart was beating. I thought it was beating out of my chest. My palms were sweating and I was crying.

And I was like, I can't tell him because I know he's going to divorce me. Anyway, so that's what I did. And that's why I'm such a strong believer in the power of your words. You know, I use the word confession. I know what we all think when we hear that word. I got to tell you when I did something wrong. But listen, confession, I call it a new view of confession. I know what we all think when we hear that word. I got to tell you when I did something wrong, but listen, confession, I call it a new view of confession. The way I see it now is we begin to talk to set ourselves free. It's a process that you cannot do any other way.

I can go get trials. I can continue to stay on trial. I can do all these things, but that does not set me free. But what I found that day, that one little confession that I made to my husband changed everything for me. I didn't understand that when you make this confession, when you finally begin to talk, I mean, it was a very short two-sentence confession. But when I left his office, something inside of me lifted, and I began to feel the shackles just slightly, ever so slightly. I began to feel lighter. And that was the beginning. And then my husband, that's a whole other story. But obviously, he loved me, never made me feel bad. He never blamed me. He never said, why did you do this to us? He's a quiet man. And during that time, I felt his love and support. And it took us a number of years to become

healthy as a couple and as a family. But today, Jonas and I are married for 56 years. It's miraculous. And also lots of hard work. But that's what's beautiful about it. And I think it's always hard work. And we always look for that magic pill that everything is roses. The pill, the pill. I'm not anti-pill. So even after we got through all of that and I ended up starting to go for serious counseling for a number of years and to a psychiatrist and a number of years it took me to be well, be well. But it's during that time I took antidepressants for about two years. And then I knew when I was better. And so my psychologist or psychiatrist at that time said, if you want to be well, the two things that if you can do both at the same time,

and you have a really great therapist, a really great psychologist, or whatever you choose. Trauma therapy is huge today. And so when you can do therapy and medication, and then you're accountable to someone and do as they tell you, that can really be a very good way to free yourself and start to feel better. And that's what happened for me. And you took care of yourself. I did a sewing on. I learned how to pay attention to my body. And that's what happened for me. And you took care of yourself. I did as I went on. I learned how to pay attention to my body. My belly was saying, I say belly, because honestly, there's a lot goes on in your stomach.

There's a lot said about gut health nowadays. There's a lot going on there. And I learned how to pay attention to my stomach and to pay attention to what I'm thinking and to feel my heart. And it's taken me quite a while to be in tune with all that, but that's where I live today, and to pay attention to what I'm thinking and to feel my heart. And it's taken me quite a while to be in tune with all that, but that's where I live today, just understanding my body.

I think you're getting towards that 40 years old. Take us there a little bit. How eventually did you become a founder of the biggest franchise for pretzels? Well, that's a loaded question, but I know we have a few minutes here yet, so I'll try to keep it short and to the point. But because of what we'd experienced, Jonas, he was a machinist and all of his life, even as a kid, he repaired things and tore things apart and figured it out how to put it back. And today he can fix my hair dryer or he can build a house, anything between. So when this happened to us, his mind just went to, how could this happen? And we knew nothing when I made that confession. We knew nothing about psychology or I'd never been for

counseling. I didn't even know that world existed. And so at that time I was 35 years old. And because of what we'd experienced, and Jonas, his inquisitive mind, and his heart to understand me and how our family was ravaged and wrecked by sexual abuse, it's just unbelievable what happens the aftermath of that. It's hard to describe. And I try to describe it also in my other book

that I wrote, The Secret Lies Within, talks a little bit more about the trauma and how to manage that. But he wanted to study psychology. So back in the day, he took a correspondence course with a counseling center called Emerge Ministries out of Akron, Ohio. And he did the correspondence. It took him a couple of years, but he became a layman's counselor. And he began counseling.

And he believed because in the Amish and the Mennonite culture, they don't even pay their pastors. So he really wanted to give our people, wanted to give them free counseling. And so that's what he did. And within a very short time after we started so uh 1982 i made the confession in 1988 we started auntie ann's and it was in 1986 maybe 85 86 he started doing marriage counseling but by the time 1988 came along he was full-time almost every day didn't have a job worked for his dad they get 100 bucks a week maybe or something but full-time four to five days a week, counseling couples in our community. So guess what? No money in the bank and it's hard to pay our bills. And I just said one day, I guess I'll go to work and make the money. I'm going to go to work to make the dough so we can pay the bills. That was the very first time I ever went

to work to support the family. But you know what? I did it with great joy because I wanted to. I really honored Jonas because he saved me. And I committed my life to doing whatever I can for him to fulfill his dream and his passion. And I want to say I felt the call as well to help other people by sharing my story and doing some marriage counseling. So that's why

I went to work. We found a little pretzel stand in downtown Pennsylvania. Had no money. We had no capital. We had no money. I had no formal education and we had no business plan. It's exactly what you think you need for business, right? Like a recipe for success and right. I want to start a business. I don't have capital. I don't have the education. Let's go. Well, you know, what I believe is, what I believe is all things are possible. And growing up in this work ethic and the Amish culture and with faith and family and hard work, I never wondered. I never even asked the question, can I do this? No, I knew I could. And so I went to market. It was doable. I was familiar with markets. And it's interesting

to me that God took me to a market. He didn't take me to a mall because I didn't know anything about malls. I went to a market. So your history, don't cancel it. Embrace it. Whatever your history is, figure out how did it get you to where you are right now? And so anyway, I ended up in a market. I was 40 years old. I never made a pretzel in my life. I did a lot of baking, never made a pretzel. So I know people come to me when I'm out speaking. They say, you know, I don't know what to do. I'm 40. I, you know, I have my degree. And I'm like, you know what? It's never too late. And you know what I believe? If you think you can, then you will. If you think you can't, you probably won't. Has a lot to do with attitude. And I also understand economy. I understand layoffs. I get all of that. I mean, I worked with people for years and I really know about that now,

but I still believe there's something for all to do. I still believe that there's something to do as you're waiting for whatever it is that your dream to get out there and be busy. I have a couple of grandkids right now. I'm like, just go out and do something. And don't think about becoming a CEO of Microsoft or a bank or something. No, go out and do something. Do you know that work is pleasure? I told my grandson the other day, he's 20. I said, Ryan, I've never in my life hated my job.

You know why? Because my dad always taught me that work is fun. And I worked hard, but I had the mentality that no matter what I put my hand to do, whatever I put my hand to, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do the task. I'm not trying to please mom and dad, but I find great fulfillment in finding a task

and doing it well. So I'm saying, do whatever it takes. Go out there and find a little job and love what you do. Serve people. Serve people. Love people. Oh, the key is the people, right? But again, you don't have a plan. You don't know how to make pretzels yet. Tell us more. Well, I had a purpose. And that purpose was to make enough money so that Jonas can do counseling and to pay our bills. That was my purpose.

And so I feel like we underestimate the power of purpose. Why do you want your own business? Or why do you go to work every day? And it's to make money. And that's, yes, of course. But the purpose was greater for me. I had something beyond making money just to, I don't know, to buy a new car, a big house. I

wanted to support my husband. So I had a purpose. And number two, I had a great product. So if you have a product that's, I don't know, you're okay about it. You think, yeah, I have a pretty good product. Stop. You need a product that's better than the best, or that's at least as good as anything that's out there. You have to be proud about your product and you want to be excited about what you have to offer to your world. So I had a great purpose, I had a great product, and then I had great people. And I gathered people around me, Solano, that knew more than I did. And honestly, I don't think it matters how much you know. There's always somebody out there that knows more. And bring them to your table. Learn from those who've been there, done

that. And so when we started the company, even though these are the things that we had, but I began to focus on our great product and I began to focus on our great people. And let me tell you, I know with all of my heart, I know that's why Auntie Anne's was at the end of the day, was very successful because I love my people. I would clean the bathrooms. I would take a cup of coffee to the president of my company. I would take my employees out to eat. I would call them on their birthdays and say, happy birthday. When it comes to people, there are so many things that you can do.

Actually, they don't cost anything. Just value them when you go to work and maybe you're not the boss, you're an employee. Value the people around you. You know, say, good morning. How are you doing today? Proud of them on the back and say, I'm so happy to see you.

There's so little, it's so many things that we can do to lift each other up. Just a kind word, a smile. Somebody wants to complain, listen to them. Let me hear what you have to say. I just feel like we're so quick to criticize or to be angry or to blame. My mom that taught me well, others first, yourself last. Imagine that. So when I talk about people, it was always about, I wanted to help my people. I wanted to please them. I wanted them to experience a great work environment. And so from that, we started out small. We ended up doing two stores the very first year, my husband and I by ourselves and our two daughters helped us. And my two sisters helped me. And from there, we built 12 stores the next year. And then we hired someone at the end of that year.

And the third year, we did 35 stores. And within a couple of years, we were halfway around the world in Jakarta, Indonesia. Now, if you want me to tell your audience how I did that, I'm just going to say, you're going to have to get the book and read it because we don't have the time to go into that. But hard work and just, I faced obstacles every single day. Things that I thought I could not get through, I truly did. We set up a training department, a franchise business. I had to understand finances. Everything was new, everything. And the obstacles I faced every day, I had to overcome them all. And it took a while. And you know what?

Sometimes I'm like, why did anybody come work for us? I don't know. It'd be interesting for you to have some employees at Ants Hands in the early days and see what they say about me and the company. Because it wasn't perfect. It wasn't perfect. But there was...

But I think it never is, Anne. It never is. And I think that's what's beautiful about those taking those imperfect steps and continuing to grow. But the fact is that you had people coming to you, which is very unheard of, right? That they want to franchise. So they were coming to you and the fact that you were giving the samples and suddenly people want more of. So you, somehow your instincts were the right instincts because eventually it's not about being the CEO or the founder or whatever. It's really about human to human connections. And that's what you brought to the business. So true. So true. I think you just need to talk about that for a little bit because that's so true. I'm just thinking about, I have a list of things that we did to grow the

business. And I'm just going to, a couple of things, if I may just kind of go into that. I think number one, we built a strong foundation of trust. I mean, really, how many of us want to be trusted? And so if we want to be trusted, then we have to become trustworthy. So it was really important for us to build the company on a strong foundation of trust. And without trust, there is no foundation. There is no foundation without trust. Then we hired people that were experts in the industry, and we placed them in positions that were best suited for their strengths. All of these things are really important for a startup company,

but it's also important as you grow a company. And even if you stop the growth and you maintain your growth, you just reach the peak of your growth. But it's all of these things are really important. And I'll put a mirror for a second on this one specifically, because I think it's important for the listeners to understand you actually brought sometimes experts that some founders would find it intimidating, right? Because suddenly they know a lot more, but you actually wanted to bring that in so that the franchise will work better. You are not only not afraid of it, you actually realize that you need to bring those experts, you need to bring those A++ players to take the business to the next level. That's not trivial.

That's why I talk about in my book a lot, is being authentic and real. I think we should say to stop pretending we know it all. Well, I couldn't even pretend that because I didn't know anything, right? But no matter, again, no matter what you know, how experienced you are, you may have a fantastic degree in business

and that's helpful. But again, it's good to bring people into your company that not just anybody, again, you vet them and you go through the process. And if they match your values and your purpose and your mission, and they have the work ethic or whatever, then you bring them in because you need experts that know more than you do,

particularly if you're a new entrepreneur and you really have never been in business before. So there's a lot to learn. I just covered that I was in the people business and not in the pretzel business. So I think I touched on that. And I believe that your people, not your building, not your advertising program, your people are your greatest asset. Your people. We rented a building for the entire time that I owned the company, almost 20 years, because I didn't want to spend the money on building this elaborate corporate office.

We had a beautiful building, but we leased it out because I didn't want to spend the money on a building and then cheat my employees, not cheat them, but be strapped down with that expense. And so we decided to lease a building and we were able to do that and treat our employees well because we didn't have the expense of a new building and all those things. So I'm really a common sense person. I'm not an academic. I don't have that in my background. But common sense is a good thing. Whether you have an academic background or not,

if you can implement that and if you have that and you can bring that into your workplace, it's a very good way to lead your company. And then we created a mission statement. Wanted it to be easy so we could memorize it. We talked about our purpose and our mission statement at every single all-employee meeting, which we did every month.

And once a week, every Monday morning, the department head had to meet with all their employees. Every Monday, we met with all of our people and we would go over the mission statement, the value, the statement of value. And so it's really important to stay in touch with your people. They want to know you as the boss. Is there anything like that, a boss? I don't know. That's old-fashioned, but

you're the manager, you're the department head, you're the leader. Thank you. People want to know you. And so I was always like, get to know your people. And that's why we met every Monday morning and we would go over all of the issues and then talk about their personal life. So again, it goes back to people. And then we created a system. It's called a greenfield management system. And that system, as I spoke to the employees about it, it simply meant there's a whole lot more to it than this, but it was an open door policy. Anybody in the company could come and talk to me about anything, but they knew if they came and talked to me about it, then we were going to go right back to the manager and we're going to have them come to Jesus' meeting and we're going to talk about the problem. So open door, meaning you can talk about any issue that

you want. So we tried to create a healthy work environment and that gave the employees the feeling that they were actually on a team. And if you create a strong team, you will become a winner. Maybe not always, but for the most part. And that's not easy to do also in a franchise because that's a different type of growth that is very different than when they're your own team. There's a different level of complexity when you're talking about that. Absolutely. Franchising is probably the most difficult way to do business. It's a good way to grow fast, but can you manage it? But I always tell people to go to the Chick-fil-A model. They're not a franchise. They have partners. And by the end of the year, you can actually own a unit. So there's more control and there's better consistency. When you franchise,

we had wonderful franchisees. We taught them, we trained them well, and we were pretty, I was like, if you do it well, I think you're going to do just fine. But if you want to do your own thing, then you need to start your own company. I'm trying to be smart about that, but it's just, it's really true. So if you're a franchisee and the system is good and the franchisor, you trust them, it's really a good way to grow your company and you have some security there. But you're right. As time goes on, you don't have the control of the product like I wished I would have, even though we trained and we taught and we had people go into the stores all the time to check on the product and to see how things were going. And we did pretty good. Actually,

we did excellent with that. But it's still a very difficult way to do business, for sure. And that's incredible. And then you decide to sell in 2005, if I'm not mistaken. Since then, you're telling your story and you made that counseling for free possible. So tell us a little bit about the process itself and what are you up to now? Well, selling the company was harder than starting the company. If you could understand that. But starting was exciting and yeah, obstacles, overcoming this, all those things were part of my daily life. But now after almost 20 years, I had grown this company. We had

grown the company into, they're now almost 20. They're no longer adolescents and no longer teenagers. And we had a lot of longevity with many of our employees. And there was people we let go and people would just leave on their own, many different reasons, whatever. But basically we were a very healthy company and people enjoyed working at AT&T. And so when I went to sell the company, I'm like, how in the world?

How in the world am I going to do this? You know, anyway, it was a long process and we just felt like it was time to go. So we sold it outright. We had no strings attached because I was so involved with the people. They all felt like my family and I was their Auntie Anne, you know, so I don't know. There was just some kind of a family connection there. And it always felt like I divorced them. And then I talked to the employees when we sold the company. I told them exactly how I'm feeling and so on.

There was nothing wrong in the company. We sold it because we were doing well. And we knew that it's a good time to sell. And so just to be able to let that go was, wow, it was almost traumatic. And sitting on my chair after I sold the company, and our office was about five minutes from our house, and I'm sitting there, and I heard a voice inside of me, and I'm planning on like, oh, I'll stop by every now and again.

I'll just stop by because it's just down the street. And I love these people. They're my life, you know? And as I'm sitting there wondering, what am I going to do now? We had bought a property, and we were going to build a community center, and we had bought a 125-acre farm going to build a community center and we had bought a 125-acre farm. And so there was things to do, but it's a whole world that we knew nothing about. And so I'm sitting here, I'm thinking, wow, what am I going to do? Well, maybe I'll just

goodbye in the morning and, I don't know, say hello to everybody, whatever. Wow. And I heard this very strong, this voice inside of me that said, you can't go back there. It startled me. And I started to think about it. And then I started to cry about it. And because I realized, well, yeah, that's right. Nobody told me I can't come back there. But I knew the common sense, the pissed woman that I had become.

I knew if I go back there, I'm going to hear stories. I'm going to hear their things aren't the same that you're not here. I knew everything changes, you know, when you leave. But the main reason was I felt in my heart, the new owner can never be in charge. He'll feel constricted or every time I come in those doors. So I called him and I said, you can, I just want you to know that I'm not coming back to Antaeans. I don't feel like it's the right thing for me to do.

If I do come back, it would be simply because I'm invited back. I have no expectations. And he said, thank you for that. And he said, we will invite you back for a special occasion. So anyway, so that was a whole other journey for me. So I never went back unless I was invited. And that was not very often, every now and again. And then leaving that and realizing that what I believe is God gave me a

vessel first and then gave me a platform. And what I love today is that I have opportunity in many, many different arenas, venues, to share our story. And my purpose today is to encourage people and to tell them all things are possible with faith and hard work. It can't be all about faith. And it can't be all about hard work. You got to bring it together. And because, you know, we all need faith. I have a little bit of faith every time I get on a plane nowadays.

I trust the pilot. So we have little bit of faith every time I get on a plane nowadays. I trust the pilot. So we have to live with faith and purpose. And I just love to encourage people that all things are possible. And if you believe that you can, I don't care what the obstacles are. Let me tell you, I faced every obstacle you can imagine. I got my high school diploma when I was 50. Well, before I got my high school diploma, and that was typical for me, but I did really good. I got an A and I got a diploma. I walked the aisle.

I mean, I did it the right way. I was so proud. I'm 50, I got my high school diploma. But before I got my diploma, I received the first of three honorary doctorate degrees. And, you know, my journey has been, the highs and the lows have been incredible, but the purpose is what kept me on the high road. And there's always more. You're never there. And today, sometimes when I'm speaking podcasts and depending where I'm asked to speak,

sometimes I get this, my belly tells me, I don't know, I get nervous. I get, you know, all these things. And like, well, there's always more. There's always more. And I've learned to push through the obstacles and the more, if I don't feel like I'm qualified or able to, I've learned how to overcome the obstacles. And your entire life is about overcoming obstacles. And the obstacles for the most part are within me. I had to overcome me and all of my history and all of my baggage and all of my insecurities and all of my, I don't know if I can do this and all the whining and all those things.

I had to overcome that so that I could keep climbing and do more. Incredible, Anne, because the challenges are inevitable, but the suffering is a choice, right? Like you decide if you're gonna live there, right? And it's incredible to watch your story. So last question, Anne, if you would go back to your younger self, maybe down that spiral at some point, what would you say to yourself? I would say to myself, never underestimate the power of your will. Never underestimate the obstacles that you will face. They're going to be there, but you can always dig deeper.

And if you can't find the answers within yourself, you can always pray. You can ask God to help you. You can always go talk to someone that will help you. So I would say to myself, yeah, you're going to face obstacles, but you have what it takes to overcome and to become the very best you and to have a successful company or to be a great employee. It's not even all about owning your own company. It's just about finding this satisfaction within yourself. So I would say do the very best that you can do and become the very best

you that you can be. And that's your gift then to the world. Oh, that's so inspiring. And again, I knew talking to you will be incredible. And I just really appreciate the honest, authentic, real conversation that you bring here, but also in your books. And I think that's what's rare. You bring the authentic and the real Anne that is really successful, but also that had a lot of challenges to overcome. And that to me is like a really important piece that people need to hear because we need hope. Thank you. And I really pray and I hope that our story can give people the courage to be authentic. It's really a great way to live. It's such a great way to live. I such a great way to live I've lived the dark world I've been there so I hope that our story encourages people to you know choose to be authentic and if you don't know how to be that well then find somebody that can help you become the real you right and the best version of you and thank you so so so much well I've really enjoyed

our time together thank you for having me on your podcast.