Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Appeals Court HINTS at MAJOR RULING in Trump FRAUD CASE

Episode Date: September 27, 2024

In breaking news, a New York 5 Justice panel may be prepared to substantially lower Trump’s $465 million dollar fraud judgment before the election. Michael Popok who regularly practices before the court and reviewed the oral argument today, provides his detailed analysis and breakdown as to why the judgment may be reduced by one or $200 million. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://TryMiracle.com/LEGALAF and use the code LEGALAF to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Visit https://meidastouch.com for more! Join the Legal AF Patreon: https://Patreon.com/LegalAF Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/lights-on-with-jessica-denson On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

the game. to wager Ontario only gambling problem call connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600. BedMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Looking for a collaborator for your career, a strong ally to support your next level success? You will find it at York University School of Continuing Studies, where we offer career programs purpose built for you. Visit continue.yorku.ca. How do stop losses work on Kraken? Let's say I have a birthday party on Wednesday night,

but an important meeting Thursday morning. So, sensible me pre-books a taxi for 10 p.m. with alerts. Voila! I won't be getting carried away and staying out till 2. That's Stop Loss Orders on Kraken. An easy way to plan ahead. Go to kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Most of it with your membership rewards points. Earn points on everyday purchases. Use them for that long awaited vacation. Points never expire, so use them how you want. That's the powerful backing of American Express. On eligible cards, terms apply.

Learn more at mx.ca. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, Sonnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions.

And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sonnybrook is special. Learn more at sonnybrook.ca slash special. Michael Popock, Legal AF. Time to dive into the nitty gritty of the Appellate Division First Department in New York who heard oral argument today for Donald Trump to try to overturn his $465 million fraud judgment of disgorgement brought by Judge Angoran in February. It was a little bit rocky for the lawyers

for the New York attorney general. It doesn't mean in my opinion that ultimately the entirety of the $465 million is gonna be overturned, but I think it's going to take a hit and they could strike 50 or $100 million over it. Let me give you the short answer upfront, and then I'll tie it together in the hot take. I don't think they're going to vacate

or overturn the ruling. I don't think they're going to throw out the entirety of the $465 million judgment running with $100,000 of interest every day against Donald Trump. This is the same panel, just to put it into some kind of context, who about six months ago, told Donald Trump he only had to post $175 million bond to stop the enforcement of the judgment, not the full 465,

and they would deal with the rest of it on appeal. At the time, I thought it didn't signal that they were going to drop the judgment down to 175, but rather they knew that Donald Trump had a lot of assets and the attorney general had a lot of power and that a financial monitor was in place for the last three years overseeing all of Donald Trump's assets so they weren't concerned. But it did signal that they thought that $175 million may be at least the bottom line where they come. I think they still end up with a judgment of three to four hundred million. And let me tell you, as a practitioner in the

Appellate Division First Department for almost all of my career, very few judgments and verdicts, especially of this size, by a trial judge end up unscathed. I can't think of one where the appellate division, the five justices that are assigned on a panel for a certain case, don't decide to take out a blue pencil and do their own math and start reducing it. And we just expect it. The lawyers that practice regularly at the appellate division first department know that they can't spend the money from their judgment at the trial level until they get through the appellate Division First Department that sits in Manhattan. So I think that's going to happen here. There's going to be some haircut, if you will. I just don't think they throw out the entire thing.

It's going to be somewhere between, I don't know, $175 and $350, that's millions of dollars, for Donald Trump's persistent fraud. Recall that after a six-week trial, Donald Trump, Don Jr., Eric, everybody but Ivanka and the Trump Organization was found to have committed persistent fraud as that term is used in the state of New York under an executive law that empowers the New York Attorney General to be the watchdog or the sheriff of Wall Street and financial markets. It doesn't matter that the parties are sophisticated. In fact, the more sophisticated the parties on both sides, sometimes the bigger the fraud that has to be regulated by the power of the attorney general. So you go to 63-12 in the code book and there it is. It's

been sitting on the books for a long, long time, since the 1950s and 60s, and Donald Trump hates it. His major argument is, there's no victims. All the banks love me. All the insurance companies love me. All the insurance companies love me. Sure, I lied to them about my personal financial statements. Sure, I increased the value of all my assets just so that my personal financial statement balance sheet would be better so I could borrow more money. I could take out more insurance. I could get approved for more loans. But so what? Who was harmed? I don't know. You, me, everybody else that's standing in line at the bank to get our loan at our rate.

And that is the major problem. So we got a five judge panel today. I listened to that oral argument. Let me tell you about the five justices of the Appellate Division First Department, which is the first level appellate court in New York. We've got two levels here. The top court in New York is called,

just to be confusing, the Court of Appeals. So here we're at that level. I know this first department well. I got sworn in there in 1992. I love the ceremonial courtroom. I've argued there many times. Here's the five justices assigned to the case. The chief justice or the presiding justice is Justice Renwick. We also have Justice Moulton, Higgett, Rosado, and Friedman. Friedman is the wild card. Friedman is the judge who on more than one occasion gave Donald Trump not one, but two stays of decisions

by Judge Angoran pending the full of a panel. Now when the full of panel got together, they overturned Judge Friedman, but we always suspected that he was a closet maga or closet trumpeter. And it showed its color. He showed his colors today during the oral argument that lasted about an hour. Judge Renwick sits in the middle. I'm going to play a clip in a minute. And then you got Judge Moulton. The intellectual fulcrum on this panel today, the heft, the weight, the gravitas is really Renwick, who's the presiding judge. She sits in the middle and Judge Moulton.

And you'll see the back and forth, the volleying back and forth between them and the lawyers. And then you got Friedman on the outer boundaries there, on the periphery, who's obviously throwing softball questions to help Donald Trump. But, and let me set the stage further about who's the cast of characters here. Those are the five justices. They were the same ones that had set the $175 million bond. They kept the financial monitor, former federal judge Barbara Jones in place, subject to this hearing that we're doing today. We should receive a decision in about four, six, eight weeks. Certainly, I believe it'll

come before the election. I think they'll think it's important that it come out before the election so the voters can know what they're voting for or what they're voting on. They were not, however, the panel that did the appellate panel that did the summary judgment and prior orders in the case. That's a different randomly selected five justice panel. I just wanted to have you have that for context. For Donald Trump, the lawyer he brought in seems to be the appellate lawyer he has the most confidence in, and it's John Sauer. John Sauer, he of the gravelly voice, it always sounds like he gargled an entire pot of broken

glass in bourbon before he got up and argues, but give credit where credit is due. He was successful for Trump before the United States Supreme Court in the Colorado insurrection decision that kept Donald Trump on the ballot, and he was successful before the United States Supreme Court for Donald Trump in the immunity decision that came out in July. Same advocate. But the difference here is we're now in the Byzantine world of New York practice, which I, having practiced here for 33 years, I'll tell you, is there's some lawyers that just know the code and the civil procedure law and rules, CPLR, like the back of their hands.

It's a very unique place. It's like no other. If you've never practiced here, it's difficult. John Sauer did okay. He thinks he's getting paid by the word, so he loves to shove where 100 words will do for John Sauer, 5,000 will do better. And so you have this kind of run-on sentence that goes on for his entire 40, 50 minutes up there. I can tell you from talking to judges and justices in New York, including today, former judges, about what they observed. They're like, that kind of advocate doesn't help us.

We just want him to stop talking so that we can get to the record, the documents, the information, and the briefs and make our decision. I'm not sure he was that effective. Knowing that he's not really a New York lawyer, it could be seen as what we call a carpetbagger, they brought in for a little bit of home cooking a guy who just hangs around the Appellate Division First Department and very, very well-known guy, Brian Isaac. Brian, every justice knows Brian Isaac. He's arguing cases there two and three times a week. He's been doing it for 30 years.

You know, he's very, he's a very much a New Yorker. I mean, that as a compliment. And he was there for Donald Trump. And his job was to spout off verbatim from the top of his head, every section of the civil procedure law book and rule book and cases, and then stroke them. He did a lot of ego stroking.

You are the finest justices. There's a reason you're the finest justices. I was like, when is he gonna stop jerking their chain and start making an argument? But he was just there so that John Sauer wasn't, that John Sauer wasn't sort of home cooked. That he didn't have a home court advantage against the New York Attorney General.

The lawyer that argued for the New York Attorney General, first time we've seen her, is Judith Vale. She argues a lot for the New York Attorney General as one of their appellate experts. When I saw the panel, I wasn't worried about Friedman because you have to get a three to two, four to one, majority wins. When I saw Moulton, who's very good in commercial matters, very smart, doesn't say a lot, but

when he does, it matters. Renwick I liked a lot. Higgett I liked a lot. Higgett, I liked a lot. Rosado's relatively new. Friedman, I was like, oh, here we go. Traditional bedsheets, they can harbor more bacteria than a toilet seat. It can lead to acne, allergies, and stuffy noses,

and it's just gross. Miracle Maid offers a whole line of self-cleaning, antibacterial bedding, such as sheets, pillowcases, and comforters that prevent up to 99.7% of bacteria growth and require up to three times less laundry. Using silver-infused fabrics inspired by NASA, Miracle-Made Sheets are thermoregulating and designed to keep you at the perfect temperature

all night long, no matter the weather. So you get better sleep every night. Miracle Sheets are luxuriously comfortable without the high price tag of other luxury brands and feel as nice if not nicer than sheets used by some five-star hotels. Stop sleeping on bacteria. Bacteria can clog your pores, causing breakouts and acne.

Sleep clean with Miracle. These sheets are infused with silver that prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and fresh three times longer than other sheets. No more gross odors. Go to trymiracle.com slash LegalAF to try Miracle Made Sheets today.

And whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today, you can save over 40%. And if you use our promo, Legal AF at checkout, you'll get three free towels and save an extra 20%. Miracle is so confident in their product, it's back with a 30 day money back guarantee. So if you aren't 100% satisfied, you'll get a full refund.

Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made. Go to trymiracle.com slash Legal AF and use the code Legal AF to claim your free three-piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's trymiracle.com slash Legal AF to treat yourself. Thank you, Miracle Made, for sponsoring this episode. Then there were some things that happened during the oral argument that gave me a little

bit of a concern. There was a moment where Judge Moulton, Justice Moulton, who I kind of counted on to preserve most of this size judgment, questioned the advocate Judith Vale for the New York attorney general and used an interesting choice of words that gave me a little bit of a pause. Let's play that clip. The immense penalty in this case is troubling. So how do you tether the amount that was assessed by Supreme Court to the harm that was caused

here where the parties left these transactions happy about how things went down? Well, disgorgement, Your Honor, looks at taking the gain away from the wrongdoer. And although this is a large number, it's a large number for a couple of reasons. One, because there was a lot of fraud. This went on and illegality. It went on for seven years during the statute of limitations period. Another reason is because the guarantee and the financial statements each year worked to get enormously favorable interest rate

savings to the defendants. It was a difference of approximately four to eight percentage points, obviously varied by year. That is an enormous benefit that they got from the misconduct. And it is not an excuse to say, well, our fraud was really successful, so we should get some of the money. Was there double counting in the damage to the assess for the old post office and the fairy point? No, there was not double counting, Your Honor.

Two points on this. First of all, the interest rate savings and the sale profits are separate pots of money. The defendants got the interest rate savings off the top. There's no suggestion that they invested that savings into the OPO. They were using the loan, and so they got the interest rate off the top. That was the savings that they got. Each year, within the statute of limitations, they were getting a savings by doing the fraud over and over again and the illegality. And then the sale profits are separate. And the sale profits, it's not the proceeds.

The proceeds of the loan were over, of the sale were around $370 million. The trial court took out the repayment of the Deutsche Bank loan, and I think defendants themselves had taken out already the taxes. And Mr. Trump testified that the number for him, around $126 million in profits, was his- All right. So when Judge Moulton, who's probably the one that could well end up writing the majority decision, says that he finds the size of the award troubling as opposed to, it's a big award, let's talk about it, that gives me a little bit of concern.

And that may already be signaling that that number is going to come down by some large tens to hundreds of millions of dollars. Even if it dropped to 250, that's a lot of money for Donald Trump to come up with, but he's trying to, he's burning through $100,000 a month just for interest on this thing. That's why he's fighting so hard to get the judgment removed. I've been involved as an appellate advocate. Sometimes you can tell what they're thinking. Sometimes you get a hot bench, you walk out, you reach behind you, you make sure your rear

end is still there and you say, wow, I'm going to lose this. And you get home and a month later you get the decision and you've won. And sometimes you think, I just had a great day in court. Things went well for me. I answered all the questions. They seemed to be with me. Hooray. And then you get the order and it's like, I lost. So it happens. Sometimes it's hard to tell, especially when they're playing their cards close to the vest, as to what's going to happen. But if

I were like guessing right now, and I'm giving you my best professional guess here on Legal AF, I would think that Moulton is going to end up writing it. Renwick is going to sign it to him. He's going to get his three votes, maybe four votes, but the decision is going to lower the amount of the judgment from Judge Angoron from the 465 maybe down to 325, 275, 250, something like that. I don't think it goes below the 175 where they've already signaled. But it'll still be a gigantic number, still the findings of persistent fraud against Donald Trump coming on the heels of a 34 felony count conviction in another court that also reports up

to the Appellate Division First Department in the criminal case against Donald Trump with Judge Mershon, different case, same Appellate Division. And I think that's where we're gonna kind of end up. We'll follow it all. And you know where we follow it all. We follow it all in legal AF. Find out what 40 million people a month already know.

That legal AF is the home of the most unique, I think an interesting and informative analysis and commentary at the intersection of law and politics out there anywhere on YouTube. I define you, I defy you to find better. You can get us in multiple ways, all related to the Midas Touch Network. You can get us on our podcast. We record the live version of it on YouTube here on the Midas Touch Network, Wednesdays

and Saturdays, 8 p.m. Eastern time. You can get my hot takes right here, like I do right here on the Midas Touch Network. But now in collaboration with the Midas Touch Network, we've formed a new channel. Got so excited, I got tongue tied. Legal AF MTN, Legal AF Midas Touch Network on this YouTube channel. And help us get to 100,000 subscribers in our first 10 days.

That's all we are, we're 10 days old. Popak had a second baby three months in, as people know. Legal AF MTN. I sit and I curate at the intersection of law and politics. I bring you the content that you've been looking forward to. And you can only find right here on Legal AF MTN, where I'll be doing exclusive content,

new shows like Unprecedented, where every week we're gonna talk about the United States Supreme Court and what happened there now. From ethics scandals to new cases selected to oral arguments and decisions all through the term, first Monday in October until the end of July, unprecedented on Legal AF MTN. So until my next hot take Legal AF podcast here on Midas Touch Network or all the content on Legal AF MTN, free subscribe. This is Michael Popak and I'm reporting. In collaboration with the Midas Touch Network, we just launched the Legal AF YouTube channel. Help

us build this pro-democracy channel where I'll be curating the top stories, the intersection of law and politics. Go to YouTube now and free subscribe at Legal AF MTN. That's at Legal AF MTN.