Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Jack Smith STRIKES BACK as WALLS CLOSE IN on Trump

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Karen Friedman Agnifilo and Ben Meiselas discuss the top midweek legal updates including Jack Smith’s response to the Supreme Court in the Trump DC criminal case, two major hearings in other Trump criminal cases in different state courts, and more. DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS! Earth Breeze: Subscribe to Earth Breeze today and save 40% at https://EarthBreeze.com/LEGALAF Delete Me: Go to https://joindeleteme.com/LEGALAF and use promo code LEGALAF for 20% off. Lume: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with Lume deodorant and get $5 off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code LEGALAF at https://LumeDeodorant.com Beam: Get up to 40% off for a limited time when you go to https://shopbeam.com/LEGALAF and use code LEGALAF at checkout! Bon Charge: Go to https://boncharge.com/legalaf and use coupon code LEGALAF to save 15% SUPPORT THE SHOW: Shop NEW LEGAL AF Merch at: https://store.meidastouch.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/meidastouch Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/lights-on-with-jessica-denson On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Crypto is like the financial system, but different. It doesn't care where you come from, what you look like, your credit score, or your outrageous food delivery habits. Crypto is finance for everyone, everywhere, all the time. Kraken, see what crypto can be. Not investment advice, crypto trading involves risk of loss. Krakens registration details at kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer. We have two very important hearings on Thursday in the Trump cases. The Manhattan District Attorney criminal case against Donald Trump regarding the hush money

payments or should we say the original Trump election interference case. Big hearing Thursday also in the Fulton County District Attorney criminal case regarding Donald Trump's attack on Fawnie Willis and trying to seek her disqualification. We'll talk about what we expect to see there. Also this week we expect that the New York Attorney General's civil fraud case will finally get its verdict from Justice Arthur and Goron. We expect that to be a massive, massive verdict in excess of $350 million plus other penalties will break that down. Also, Donald Trump this week filed an application

for a stay of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals ruling affirming what the district court judge did in the federal criminal case that's being prosecuted by special counsel, Jack Smith, rejecting Donald Trump's claim of absolute presidential immunity. And finally, it's of course, silly season, which it is every season, every day with Judge Eileen Cannon.

You watch her docket, it's a total mess, as I've said. Her corruption is matched, if not exceeded by her incompetence. We'll break all of this down. I'm Ben Myselis, filling in for Michael Popak, and of course joined by Karen Friedman, Magnifolo, the host of the Midweek Legal AF. Karen, how are you? I'm great.

Happy Valentine's Day to everybody. Michael Popak is on his baby moon. He has a little vacation pre-baby, so it's pretty exciting times. It's all good. How are you, Ben? Well, let's just jump right into it, Karen. Let's talk about the two big hearings on Thursday,

February 15th, one in the South and Fulton County, one in the North, in New York, in the Manhattan District Attorney case, two happening at the same time it's believed Trump's going to attend the Manhattan District Attorney hearing, where, among other things, they're going to talk about the trial date, which is currently scheduled for March 25th. And of course, as we talk later in the show about what's going on with the United States Supreme Court and Donald Trump's application for a stay there after the DC Circuit wrote a pretty powerful opinion rejecting Trump's absolute immunity. There's a lot of moving pieces right now.

So maybe Karen, you could break down these two big hearings, one in Fulton County, one in Manhattan. Yeah. Well, it's really unusual to have two criminal hearings going on at the exact same time with the same defendant in two completely different states and jurisdictions, because criminal cases, unlike civil cases, the defendant in here, that's Donald Trump, usually has to attend in person. It's not like a civil case where it's a choice. So having those two hearings on the same day, he was going to have to

make a choice or at least a judge would tell him which one he has to attend. And he chose the one that seems to be going to trial first, the Manhattan DA case with Alvin Bragg. So let's start with that because that's the one that won't be televised nor broadcast audio the way the Fonnie Willis, Fulton County, Georgia one will be because the laws in Georgia make it so that those are broadcast live and we will have that broadcast here on Midas Touch where I'm sure lots and lots of people will be watching it live with us and we'll hear commentary afterward. I'm torn because I don't think I'm going to be able to watch it with you, Ben and Michael Popak and others because I am going to try to get into the hearing in Manhattan since I'm based in New York and that's my old stomping ground.

It's my old office. So I want to attend. I want to see what it's like. I want to be able to give you my impressions of exactly what's going on there and who's doing what. So I'm going to try to get in. But this is just a standard routine court appearance where the judge is going to rule on the decision. It's his decision on the motion practice.

And so this was a schedule that Judge Juan Merchan, who's the state court judge overseeing this case, he set this date a long time ago when he set the March 25th trial. And when Trump was arrested almost a year ago now in Manhattan, he's, and they were kind of working on a schedule, one of the days that they set was February 15th

to just to see whether or not the March 25th trial date is going to happen, because if you remember Ben, there was the March 4th or 5th Tanya Chutkin case, the Washington DC case that was scheduled to go. And so Judge Mershan was gonna see, okay, my case going, is that case going? So the March date was always tentative to see if that case was going now that it looks like it's not going. It's been taken off the calendar.

I'm fairly confident Judge Mershan is going to keep the trial date as March 25th. And I certainly know from discussions with people who work in the Manhattan DA's office, not the trial team itself, but others who can see the team furiously working. They're certainly preparing and acting like they're getting ready to go.

And the fact that Donald Trump is going tomorrow, I think to the court really makes everyone, it seems like they're going. It seems like it's going March 25th because everyone's taking this very, very seriously. The other thing that's gonna happen tomorrow in that courtroom is the judge is going to decide the motions that Donald Trump made,

and I'll talk about those in a second, and determine whether there's any evidentiary hearings that need to occur before the trial. So that Donald Trump asked for the case to be dismissed, completely dismissed, because he said a few things. First, that it was selective prosecution, which is going to fail 100%, because this is a charge that, this is the falsifying a business record in the first degree that Donald Trump is charged with It's the bread and butter of New York State white collar practice

It's the same as if you practice federally they charge mail fraud and wire fraud for it seems like everything It's just this standard charge that that gets charged a lot when people engage in corrupt business practice in New York state. And so that is not, for him to say selective prosecution, frankly, if he did not get prosecuted for what he did, that could be considered selective prosecution because this is such a common charge and one that is done literally hundreds of times a year across the state. So I don't think that is going to fly. The other argument he's making is that the statute of limitations has run because these conduct occurred in 2016 and 2017 in the beginning of his presidency and there's a five-year statute of limitation on felonies in New York and he wasn't arrested or indicted

until 2023 so that's beyond the five years. So he's gonna argue that that's beyond the statute of limitations. However, Judge, I'm sorry judge, the governor Andrew Cuomo who was the governor of the state of New York during the pandemic, he pressed pause on the statute of limitations in for all criminal cases for New York because the courts were closed, which meant that that period of time is excluded from the five years. The other thing is Donald Trump was unavailable

to be prosecuted during four of those five years because he was president. So, and he was living outside the jurisdiction at that time, which is another exception to the tolling of the statute of limitations. So he's going to lose that, I think, summarily as well. He's also making a constitutional speedy trial argument. That's all that's known as a singer motion or a singer hearing based on based on a court case, the name of a court case.

And what that basically says is, OK, there's a court case, the name of a court case. And what that basically says is, okay, there's a statutory right, which is the five years of statute of limitations, but there's also a general constitutional right to a speedy trial that you're not supposed to unnecessarily delay. Like if you were to sit on your hands and do nothing for four years and 364 days, you could have brought

the case, but you decided not to for no good reason. And then you bring it on that last day of the statute of limitations. One could make an argument that their constitutional right was violated. There's no good excuse for it. And PS, because I didn't know that I I was because of that time delay, a lot of evidence was lost, things that I could have preserved and exonerated myself. I'm not saying that argument will fly, but that's how it that's how the argument would go.

And and here, I think they'll be fine in there as well, because once again, he couldn't be prosecuted while he was while he was president of the United States. So I think most of, if not all of the arguments are going to be summarily dismissed. And I think the case is going to go to trial, but that's what I expect to happen in New York on tomorrow, on Thursday. Anything you want wanna add?

So Karen, you've been the number two at the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. So you've been at hearings like this. Can you paint the picture for our listeners and viewers about, walk us through like what actually happens. You show up, are they gonna go through those motions first? How long does that take? To me, it would seem that you go through the motions before you go talk about the trial date because you have to

get through the dispositive motions. But how does that work? Is this going to be a full day hearing? What walk us through it that's like? This is probably not going to be very long. I think this will be probably around an hour, maybe an hour and a half at the most unless something unforeseen happens. Typically, what would happen in a situation like this is the motion practice is all done on the papers. So Donald Trump filed an omnibus motion, which in New York, you put all of your arguments in one big motion. It's a big omnibus motion. And then the government or the people

is what we call the Manhattan DA's office or anyone in New York who's a prosecutor. They're the people of the state of New York. So the people will reply or respond to the motions. And then the defendant has a right to reply to the response. And then there's another a right to reply to the response. And then there's another ASSUR reply. So you can go back and forth on the papers.

And usually what happens at a court appearance like this is the judge would read all the papers and then decide on the papers and have a written decision that he would hand down that addresses all of these arguments and issues and then adjourn it for hearings on the issues. Because let's say there are other hearings that Donald Trump, like other defendants, request, whether it's to suppress certain pieces of evidence, whether it's to suppress an identification procedure, whether it's to suppress statements. If the judge grants those motions, the case would get adjourned to have a hearing on those motions. He didn't ask for any of that here. The only

hearing they could potentially have has to do with either speedy trial arguments, or he made another argument about saying that there were leaks to grand jury secrecy because grand jury is secret in New York, so he wants a hearing on that. So typically what the judge will do is he'll rule from the bench on those issues and adjourn for any hearings if he determines that any are necessary. And the reason they adjourn for the hearings is because the government would have to call witnesses

and those because they don't know whether or not these hearings are granted they wouldn't have had those witnesses teed up. So I expect tomorrow, however, that there will be some oral argument on the motions on the part of on the part of Donald Trump and his lawyers, that they're going to want to argue each of these issues, and then the prosecutors will reply orally. So I think you're going to see some oral arguments and discussions on that. I think the judge is also going to want to talk about jury selection and jury questionnaires. It's gonna be a lot of housekeeping that's going to happen tomorrow,

where they're going to talk about also. So any hearings that might happen, any rulings on any motions that have been submitted, anything regarding the jury. And then he will also ask, are the parties gonna make any motions eliminate? And those are the pre-trial motions that are often made before trial.

Things like, I wanna, I wanna, you know, I'm sure Donald Trump is going to say that certain witnesses should be forbidden from testifying or their testimony should be limited. Or I wanna keep certain evidence out of, away from the jury. I, you would imagine that out of away from the jury. You would imagine that one of the things

he's gonna want to keep away from the jury is the access Hollywood tape, that where he talked about grabbing women's private parts. And that's gonna be something that I'm sure the government is the prosecutor's gonna want to come in because it shows his willingness to put himself before others to put it lightly. So he's going to make some arguments that certain pieces

of evidence he wants to keep out. And then the prosecutor will make an argument about why those should be allowed to bring certain pieces of evidence in. So that kind of thing is also going to be discussed and potentially a schedule will be set for the motions in Lemonet and then a trial schedule. So I don't think it's going to be very long. Karen, you expect, though, that March 25, 25th trial date to be the trial date after this hearing completes? Unless there's been discussions between the judges, you know, for all we know Judge Schutkin

and Judge Mershawn have been communicating, which is very common, that judges coordinate when you have a defendant that has multiple pending criminal cases. Normally, what the judges will do is they'll coordinate with one another. And unless there's been some discussion among the judges about scheduling and timing, I would expect that that case is going at the end of March. So that's one of the big hearings that's taking place on Thursday, February 15th. Now let's talk about the other case. This one in Fulton County, Georgia. You've been reporting on it.

Popak's been reporting it. I've been reporting on it here. It started with one of Donald Trump's co-defendants, Michael Roman, filing this motion for disqualification as well as a motion to dismiss against Fulton County District Attorney Fauni Willis, alleging that she was involved in an improper relationship with one of these special prosecutors or special counsels who are hired as part of her team. Guys paid like 250 bucks an hour, which is actually under kind of the market for what

he would normally be paid. Someone by the name of Nathan Wade, Fulton County District Attorney, Fonnie Willis submitted a very robust opposition declarations as well saying that the relationship took place after she began the investigation into Donald Trump in any event. Nathan Wade is someone who's supremely qualified and this has nothing to do with anything that would adversely kind of impact the ability of the prosecutors to do

their job here and also that it's just an odd thing in general for criminal defendants to say that they want better prosecutors to go after them, which is odd and seems that it's more intended to embarrass, humiliate, and just to kind of find some other issue. Judge McAfee, who's presiding over the case in Fulton County, Georgia, has stated that some of the breadth which the Trump and his co-defendants want to get into is not going to be the subject of this hearing, but that this is a hearing that nonetheless at least needs to take place. It needs to be addressed. So what do you expect? I mean, there's a lot of witnesses who are identified.

What do you expect to happen? We are going to be covering it here live on the MinusTouch Network on the YouTube channel. But what do you expect our viewers to see and what do you think the outcome is going to be careful? So this one just irks me because really, I don't understand why there's a need for the hearing at this point. There has been an affidavit submitted by Nathan Wade that puts to bed any of the claims that are being made here. It does seem like it is designed to embarrass and be salacious. I hope that the judge who thus far has done an excellent job, I think, at keeping control of the legal issues and of the courtroom and has really been a good judge as judges go. And I hope he does the same thing at the hearing

tomorrow because it really isn't relevant whether the relationship is romantic, whether it's sexual. It really makes no sense why any of that is really anyone's business. These are two consenting adults who have admitted to having a relationship. But Judge McAfee has said that it is possible that Fonnie Willis could be disqualified from this case and he's holding an evidentiary hearing to investigate these claims of a romantic relationship. And again, when you look at the law, it is unclear exactly what basis the disqualification could

be about. For example, Fonnie Willis could be disqualified if there's a conflict of interest or the appearance of a conflict of interest. Let's think about what would a conflict of interest be. So some really, really clear examples of what a conflict of interest could be are things like if there's a romantic relationship between the prosecutor and the defense attorney, for example, that could be a conflict of interest, right? Or between the prosecutor and the defense attorney, for example, that could be a conflict of interest, right? Or between the prosecutor and a judge, or the prosecutor and a witness or a juror, you know, those are those could be conflict of interest, but the two people on the same side of the V, you know, where it's, it's the people versus Donald Trump, that is not an actual conflict of interest.

And so that kind of makes no sense. One thing that Judge McAfee said is not on the table, that he's not going to allow any discussion of his whether or not Nathan Wade is qualified, because that's one of the things that defense at Romans lawyer, or not Nathan Wade is qualified, because that's one of the things that Romans, defendant Romans lawyer, who PS was a big supporter of Nathan Wade's when he ran for office

and was even wearing a T-shirt saying she supported Nathan Wade and talked about how qualified he is. Suddenly she's now saying he's not qualified. But the judge said that that is not an issue that is going to be discussed because that's off the table. That's Fannie Willis in her discretion. As long as he has a bar card, she can hire him. So it's really looking at are there any conflicts of interest?

So again, when you look at case law in Georgia, you'll see things like defense attorneys or, I'm sorry, special prosecutors who have worked as a prosecutor on a case, not getting paid by the hour, but getting paid on what's called a contingency fee, meaning you only get paid if you win, that's a conflict of interest because really a prosecutor has an ethical duty to seek justice, not to win at any cost. But if your salary or your compensation depends on whether or not you win, then that presents a conflict of interest. Other examples of conflicts of interest are things like if Nathan Wade was, when he was a defense attorney, was represented

Donald Trump as a defense attorney, or one of the defendants as a defense attorney that you can't then become the prosecutor to somebody that you used to represent as a defense attorney. So those are those are some examples of what a conflict would be. So so what would be the conflict here and he's getting Nathan Wade is getting paid by the hour. paid by the hour. He is getting paid the same amount as another special prosecutor is getting paid, which is $250 an hour. And frankly, when you look at other cases, in particular, the special prosecutor, hiring special prosecutors, apparently very common in Georgia. And it's something that they have done that they do many, many many times much more than we do it in New York Although we have done it in New York, but it's it's more rare to get a special prosecutor It's when there's some kind of conflict like like if at the Manhattan DA's office We'd have to get a different prosecutor

We'd we'd send it to another office if say had to, if an employee of the Manhattan DA's office was arrested for something, right? We wouldn't prosecute that person because there's a conflict of interest. Or, you know, so there's different reasons why you would do that. But in Georgia, this is something that is done, is done a lot.

And there are records, it's been reported from Georgia and the office of the attorney general of Georgia that they have in the past engaged hundreds of special prosecutors. And in 2003 alone, 2020 three alone, there were hundreds in the state of Georgia. And and 18 of these of these special assistant attorneys general were paid $250 an hour. And some, by the way, made over $1,000 an hour. So it's not even a lot of money. Certainly anyone who practices law and private practice says they call that low bono.

It's not pro bono or free, but it's not a lot of money. So again, where's the conflict? And so I think one of the things they're gonna argue is that they want to vacation together and there was personal travel and together. But Fonny Willis and Nathan Wade said that sometimes he paid, sometimes she paid. I mean, I just don't get how there's some kind of incentive here. So it's hard for me to articulate what the issues are because I don't see an

issue at all. I see this as potentially an HR question about an office romance, but I mean, office romances exist. So, I don't quite understand what the issue is, but that's what's going to happen at the hearing. Well, look, Donald Trump and his co-defendants or Donald Trump and his civil co-defendants were about to talk about what happened in the New York Attorney General's civil fraud case. They try to make it very deeply personal. They're going to go after the wives, they're going to go after the spouses and significant

others or the husbands, they're going to go after the children, they're going to go after the spouses and significant others or the husbands. They're going to go after the children. They're going to go after the law clerks. They're looking for anything to distract and delay and to try to cause an issue. Here's the amended notice of motions hearing. And you'll see that the hearing was taking place Thursday, February 15th, 2024 at 9.30 a.m. in courtroom 5A, but you'll all be invited to the Midas Touch courtroom on our YouTube channel, so that is 9.30 a.m. Eastern, 6.30 a.m. Pacific, bright and early for us here on the West Coast, but we're excited to share that with you all live tomorrow. When we come back here and excited to talk about what's happening in the New York Attorney General civil fraud case what's happening with Donald Trump's application for a stay with the United States Supreme Court of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals ruling from last week

rejecting Trump's claim of absolute presidential immunity and then we'll get into Judge Eileen Cannon, whatever the heck she's doing, just bizarre, corrupt, and we'll get into that. Let's take our first quick break. Some New Year's resolutions are destined to fail, like many of mine that I don't want to share, but trust me, when I tell you, I haven't been able to keep them. Lucky for you, here is one that we can all make and will make your life and my life easier and be kinder to the planet.

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slash legalaf and use promo code legalaf at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash legalaf and enter code legalaf at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash Legal AF code LegalAF. Welcome back to Legal AF, Ben Mysellus, Karen Friedman, Agniflo, Karen. What's going on as well with, you know,

I wanna talk about New York. I know there was something else you wanted to discuss. Yeah, you know, it really just irritates me about the Fani Willis thing. It just gets under my skin because it's just such a ridiculous double standard that we have here for Fonnie Willis, for women, for strong women, women of color. You know, it's just, I've seen it a million times. And what really irritates me is the irony here, right? You've got Donald Trump who has been found by a jury to have sexually assaulted, to have raped Eugene Carroll, sexually assaulted her.

There were two other women who testified at that Eugene Carroll trial, right, that he sexually assaulted them. He brags on an access Hollywood tape to grabbing women's private parts without their consent. And somehow that is not disqualifying for the highest office, but Fani Willis is in a consensual adult relationship with somebody and that there's a hearing happening about this. I think it's atrocious. And I just want to call it out because it really, the double standard here is just really appalling. Anyway, we can go. And I think what's so important though too

is the decisions that we make as media networks to cover things and to discuss things fearlessly the way you just did, Karen. And I think it is important to make it very clear that Donald Trump is an adjudicated rapist. Donald Trump is someone who, in addition to being found liable for sexual assault, we have heard Donald Trump on tape bragging about sexually assaulting women and basically saying that when you're famous, they let you do it, he says.

Then during the deposition that was taken by Roberta Kaplan in the federal defamation case against Donald Trump and sexual assault case, one of the things that Donald Trump said is either unfortunately or fortunately, that's the way it's been historically for thousands of years. And you listen to the types of things that he's saying that we hear him saying and you know, we just have to be very direct and calling out that that conduct and not mince words. But I do think Karen that there is an increasing part and I won't make the show into a political one because that's not the legal AF side of things, but this is the intersection of law and politics, though. I think the American people, mainstream Republicans, like real conservatives, not the MAGA mutation,

independence, I get the sense that people are really starting to see it or are seeing it. It's just important that we all kind of get the word out. So switching gears to the New York Attorney General civil fraud case, it was reported this week that there will be absent circumstances that who knows what will happen. Of course, anything can happen when we're dealing with court cases. There is expected to be a verdict on Friday. I've heard some people say late Thursday. So I think it's fair to say, you know, at the next 48 hours or so, there will be a verdict just to remind everybody, New

York Attorney General, Leticia James has already won on summary judgment as it relates to the dissolution, the termination of Trump's and the Trump organization's business certificates, we're now focused on disgorgement as a remedy. Discorgement means kind of the return of the funds that Donald Trump made inappropriately through his engaging in fraud. That's what disgorgement is,

returning it to the state of New York. And there's some also some other remedies as well, including banning Donald Trump from conducting real estate in New York for the rest of his life, banning Trump's adult children from conducting real estate in the state of New York for at least five years or for up to five years. And a more permanent monitor ship. There's that independent monitor, Judge Barbara Jones,

but whether it's retired federal Judge Barbara Jones or somebody like that who would be looking through the books and records of the Trump Organization on a much longer term basis with kind of interim remedies, post-judgment that can keep on being issued. So the New York Attorney General would not have to keep on filing new case, new case, new case. If more fraud is identified, you bring it right to Justice Arthur and Goron. And Justice Arthur and Goron can make rulings relatively quickly, order investigations to happen quickly.

And in terms of the disgorgement amount, Letitia James, New York Attorney General, requested $370 million or so. That does not include the pre-judgment interest as well as penalties. If you talk about 9% compounding, six-year statute of limitations period, you can see how that can bring the number up

to close to half a billion dollars with the interest plus additional penalties. So I'm going to be looking for that. Is there going to be additional sanctions against Alina Haban, Trump's lawyers for their conduct? I'm looking for that. But Karen, as we get to this point and the conclusion of this trial, and I want to get your thoughts there, what you expect, I just was looking back at some of these attacks that Trump made on Justice Arthur Ingor on the judge presiding over the case. And, you know, there's the post he made today, and he's probably posted close to 300 to 500 things like this, like all in caps, all unhinged, fake, Democratic judge, operative, hates me,

all this disgusting stuff. It's not even worth our time be rehashing it anymore. You know, he posts, Donald Trump posts these conspiracy theories about Justice Arthur and Goron's wife. There was someone on Twitter who had a name that was similar to and Goron's wife or was the same. Then all of these right-wing, MAGA conspiracy theorists, the same people who were saying that Taylor Swift rigged the Super Bowl, it's that crew, said that this Twitter account

was in Goron's wife because they had the same name. Trump then attacks in Goron's wife because they had the same name. So Trump then attacks in Goron's wife. You got Donald Trump posting photos of the judge with his shirt off. You got, I think we have not that photo, Salty, although that's the photo of Donald Trump. And I censored it here with attacking Justice Arthur and Goron's law clerk and calling her Schumer's girlfriend. Justice Arthur and Goron's law clerk and calling her Schumer's girlfriend. That got a gag order against Donald Trump based on that conduct. It was actually the Midas touch reporting that unearthed that. That's from Representative Clay Higgins, one of the MAGA Congress members out there who put the photo of the hit man from the godfather next to Ngoran threatening his life. And then

there was that photo that you saw where Trump posted Ngoran's body without a shirt on. And then there's posts of Trump posting about Ngoran's son. And we're talking about hundreds of posts like this, Karen. Again, as the former number two with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, your illustrious legal career both in public and now kind of private practice, the behavior like this is so unhinged, so lawless. Perhaps you can speak to that first and then kind of your overall views and assessment of what's going to happen in this case. Yeah, like any other defendant, which I sound like a broken record because I've said this a million times, but I think it's worth saying any other defendant who behaved the way Donald Trump

behaves would be locked up, period, full stop. He would be put in jail. You cannot threaten people. You cannot encourage violence against people. You cannot dox people, which is essentially what he's doing by bringing in other people's family members. There's been enough people who have responded to his clarion calls for violence, not just calls for violence, not just 9-11, January 6, but it's such a dark day in our lives, you know, because it almost killed our democracy, but not just January 6, right? It was, it's how many different people have to be, I mean, it wasn't, Judjian Goran had bomb threats and there was a swatting during this trial. And it doesn't matter who it is, whether it's Letitia James or Alvin Bragg or Jack Smith, they all, they're all getting death threats.

They're all being accused of being racist and all the other terrible things that Donald Trump says. And his followers, he knows. He said to Caitlin Collins on CNN during that infamous town hall that his listeners and followers, they listened to him like no one else. So he knows, he's aware and he's admitted it.

And if he was anybody else, he would be put in. Do you remember Sam Bankman Freed, who was the prosecutor here in the Southern District for the fall of FTX, the cryptocurrency? He took one tiny misstep and was gonna publish a letter that his girlfriend, who's a witness in the case, gave to him, and guess what the judge did? Put him in.

He was put in until he went to trial. That was it, because each time, Donald Trump is a criminal defendant in four different cases. That means he was arrested and he was released from being arrested from custody. He was released with conditions and those conditions require him to behave they require him not to

To break the law and every time He threatens somebody if it's not just words these have consequences and actions and and that's that's how Donald Trump is being treated differently than other defendants. And at some point, people will stop allowing that. But I don't know when or how that will occur. But I expect that what Judge Ngoran does, hopefully, will include some kind of, whether it's restraining order

or something that is permanent, that does not allow Donald Trump to go after his family, go after his law clerk. You don't have a First Amendment right to do that. You know, there's words aren't, you can't just say when you say something in words, you can't just say, oh, First Amendment, First Amendment, right? There's hundreds of years of body of law that says when it crosses the line into conduct, it's no longer protected by the First Amendment. And so I think somebody is going to

hopefully make him finally stop. And maybe that's Judge Angoran, I don't know. Taking away his businesses in Manhattan and potentially half a billion dollars, I think he'll hear that loud and clear. That's going to send a huge message to him. Go ahead. I was going to say he's going to have to also post a bond equal to the amount of the judgment right or have some collateral and the times already ticking on the Eugene Carroll necessity to post a bond if he wants to appeal there. 83.3 million dollar bond to match the

amount there and I don't think I mean I guess there are sometimes where a judge could be accommodating when it comes to the type of collateral that could be posted, but where the collateral is fruit of the poisonous tree, which is the actual fraudulent collateral, that's the basis of the lawsuit. I think that judges who have been attacked the way they have by Donald Trump will be less susceptible to finding leniency in arguments about creative forms of collateral.

What do you think they're, Karen? Yeah, I mean, exactly. Why would Judge Angoran do anything for him if, and bend over backwards for him when he's done nothing but torture him and his family? I mean, he's the worst defendant that I've ever seen. And I've had difficult defendants. I've had very difficult defendants. And Donald Trump takes the cake. So he's just one of those. He doesn't listen. He thinks the world should treat him differently. So I agree with you. And then this ongoing independent

monitor ship, like I think the headlines are ultimately going to be the verdict amount, $370 million to half a billion dollars. But the legal geek in me is very interested, Karen, and the other remedial kind of measures there. And like one issue, the ongoing independent monitorship, you have someone like a retired federal judge, Barbara Jones, who's been the independent monitor for the past 14 months. She sent this letter to Justice and Goron before the verdict about two weeks ago at this point,

saying things like, look, my powers don't allow me to do more than flag these issues. But let me tell you, over the past 14 months, I found incomplete, erroneous, and inconsistent financial statements. And I've even identified a $48 million loan from some entity. Trump claims to be 100% owner of where the money just simply doesn't exist, which could potentially even be something as serious as a kind of unlawful debt parking scheme. With that type of ongoing monitor ship, the power there, and I'm not sure if you've seen

this from personal practice there in something in New York. But the New York Attorney General would not, as I understand it, be required to have to keep on filing lawsuits that take years. You get the judgment and then an independent monitor now can go back to court and say, look what I found, make an order. Look what I found, make an order. So this isn't the end. This is kind of the beginning of a whole new process even after Trump gets hit with this monumental verdict amount. Yeah, I think that's the true power of this, right? Is he can impose certain conditions on Donald Trump? And there's other defendants, if you recall, in the case.

So let's back up a second and talk about what Judge Ngoran is going to find and not find on Friday, if that's when the decision comes down. So he's going to have to make an assessment as to each of the other defendants, including two of his adult children, his sons, who are also defendants. And I think Judge Angoran might not find them liable.

And the reason is, number one, he signaled that he didn't see their intent. But number two, there's, I think six or seven charges that they were charged with. And count number one is what you referred to, that this persistent fraud, this persistent business fraud under the executive law in New York, 6312,

Judge Ngoran already found that Donald Trump and others violated that. But the rest of the charges have an added element. It's the persistent fraud plus the elements of certain criminal statutes. And I'm not sure they will have met that burden on as to all the counts or as to all the defendants. And so I think Judge Anguaron is going to look

at each defendant and each charge and make individual rulings as to each. And the good, I mean, first of all, that's what he's obligated to do and that's what a trial is for. And what I think is going to be the added benefit of that is that it will insulate the judge on appeal because one of really Trump's main argument and what he says all the time and he said in that tweet that

he issued today was that this is a judge that hates me, he already had his mind made up against me and he doesn't listen and this was just a sham, etc. etc. If the judge doesn't, if he makes those individual rulings and he doesn't find every single count against every single defendant, that's one way of insulating it, that argument, because the Court of Appeals will say, no, that's not true. He did listen and this is what he found. And it also, I think, interestingly, the fact that those charges are harder to prove than the persistent fraud charge, I think it also highlights why Alvin Brad, who got a lot of flack for not bringing that case, because it was exactly the same case,

only a higher burden of proof. It would have had to prove those elements beyond a reasonable doubt. But when you have banks coming in and saying, we didn't rely on this, we didn't rely on this information, it didn't matter, we weren't the victims of this. I don't think you could have gotten over the beyond a reasonable doubt hurdle. Whether you could have gotten over the beyond-reasonable doubt hurdle.

Whether you're going to get over the lower preponderance of the evidence hurdle, I think for sure that some of those will be found against Donald Trump. But I think the trial really highlighted why Alvin Bragg went with the Stormy Daniels first election interference case rather than this case because this case requires a lot more. So I think that's what you're going to see with the verdict. I think you're going to see some of the defendants, like some of the kids. It won't be all the charges against all the kids, but I think you're right that the ultimate verdict because it kind of doesn't matter.

The judge is going to, because the persistent fraud is there, that count one is there, the top charge, you are going to see a sweeping, sweeping verdict that I think will be protected on appeal. Well, look, we could be heading into March, where Trump having to post a bond of somewhere near $500,000,000,000,000. Then, as we talked about earlier on the show, that trial date being set in the Manhattan

District Attorney criminal case. There's a world where by the time we approach the summer, Trump is a felon. Trump owes close to half a billion or more in judgments. I'm sure when we started Legal AF and we told the Legal AFers and the Midas Mighty out there that that's where we saw this going. If we said that's what was going to happen, I think we'd probably have a lot of doubters then, but I think it's important that we follow the data like meteorologists follow the weather patterns and we can have some pretty reliable predictive measures.

Court is a human process, it's not an algorithm though, so sometimes strange things, quirky things happen, but we've done our best to try to guide everybody where we think this is is happening. Speaking of which we get back i want to talk about what's going on in the washington dc federal criminal case donald trump seeking an application for a stay with the united states supreme court you file that on. February 12th which was that last date that the DC Circuit Court gave them. We'll talk about that. Special Counsel Jack Smith filing, and you and I thought that was going to happen, Karen,

Special Counsel Jack Smith filing his reply, even though the Supreme Court gave Jack Smith until... The 20th, 60th early. The 20th. Yeah, you know, we said Jack Smith will file that within 24 to 48 hours. And that's exactly what he did. We'll talk about Jack Smith's response. We'll talk about Trump's filing. We'll talk about all of that when we come back from our last quick break. January is coming gone, but it's not too late to start your New Year's resolution. And no, I'm not talking about getting tangled up in an elliptical or eating some depressing food.

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Go to bondcharge.com slash legal AF and use coupon code legal AF to save 15%. That's B-O-N-C-H-A-R-G-E dot com slash legal AF and use coupon code legal AF to save 15%. Welcome back to Legal AF and Karen, obviously, big news earlier in the day as well when Special Counsel Jack Smith filed his reply early. Supreme Court gave Special Counsel Jack Smith until February 20th to respond to Donald Trump's application for a stay, just so everybody knows what we're talking about here. A stay would be kind of a continuing pause of the district court's proceedings in the federal criminal case involving Donald

Trump's attempt to overthrow the results of the 2020 election and Donald Trump's conduct relating to the January 6th insurrection. Donald Trump asserted absolute presidential immunity and emotion to dismiss the federal judge Tanya Chutkin denied that in early December, Donald Trump filed an interlocutory appeal, meaning in the middle of the proceedings, not once a final verdict was reached, which he was potentially, he was allowed to do. There were some issues about whether an interlocutory appeal was proper or not, but ultimately the DC circuit found that the interlocutory appeal was proper. That stays the proceedings before the Washington DC federal criminal case, meaning all of the things there have been paused. Last week we got the ruling by the Washington D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, also rejecting

Donald Trump's claim of absolute presidential immunity, affirming the district court's ruling. And one of the important things that was done in the judgment that was issued by the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals is they gave Donald Trump only until February 12th to file an application for stay before the United States Supreme Court. Donald Trump filed an application for a stay on February 12th, which has continued the pause in the federal criminal case before federal Judge Tanya Chutkin. The Supreme Court then gave Jack Smith until February 20th to file a response. Jack Smith filed it within 48 hours of getting that directive, which is exactly what we expected here on the EGLE AF and the Midas Touch Network. And Special Counsel Jack Smith is, of course,

opposing any stay. And in fact, Special Counsel Jack Smith here is signaling that he will also be opposing Donald Trump's petition for certiorari. And what Jack Smith is saying is, look, yeah, we as the Department of Justice may have went to the Supreme Court before and asked you on an emergency basis to issue a ruling on the issue of absolute presidential immunity, you denied that. Then in the interim, the DC Circuit Court of Appeals made their ruling, which is bulletproof and explains all of the reasons why at this point, you don't even need to hear a petition for certiorari.

Meaning you don't even need to hear an appeal at all. So why would you need to grant a stay? You should just kick the case back to federal judge Tanya Chutkin and let Judge Chutkin continue with the proceedings. But if you do want to have a stay, which we think you shouldn't do, you should be ready to make a ruling this term so we can go to trial. you should be ready to make a ruling this term so we can go to trial. Jack Smith doesn't specifically say this summer, but basically that's what he's kind of intimating

that we can get to trial very, very, very soon. And so I thought that was an interesting response. And Karen, when we're dealing with this application for a stay, it requires five of the justices to vote in favor of the stay. For certiorari, it requires four justices. So the stay comes first, but it requires one extra justice than certiorari, which means that they will agree to hear the appeal, not that they're granting Trump's request to actually find absolute immunity, but to actually hear the issue. So there's that extra kind of hurdle. And then there's oral argument, the type you heard with the 14th Amendment Section 3 case, just to give the legal standard when it

comes to a motion or an application for a stay like this. It requires that there be a fair probability that there be a reversal. It requires a likelihood that there there be a reversal. It requires a likelihood that there would be a grant of certiorari, meaning a grant to eventually hear the appeal, irreparable harm to the person seeking to continue the stay. Donald Trump argues the irreparable harm

is that he wouldn't be given any immunity. And then there's kind of a balancing of the equities test here and Jack Smith says, when you balance the equities and when you look at the probability of reversal, it's, it's, he's not gonna get reversed. That's a foolproof, it's a foolproof decision, bulletproof decision by the DC circuit.

Karen, what do you make of that? Yeah, look, so Jack Smith filed the six days early, right? He had till the 20th. That tells you right now, he's in a rush. He wants to go and he specifically says that if you think that you are considering taking this, let's have an argument in March of 2024. Let's have an argument next month

so that we can still have an early trial. So what he's really doing is spelling out the law, the legal hurdle that Trump would have to show for this case to be stayed. And if they choose to hear it, then do it quickly so we can still have a trial before the election because the equities here and the public interest here is that there be a verdict, that the public has a right to hear the evidence. It's not just the defendant who gets a speedy trial right, but it's the public as well.

And so I think this was probably written already, because this was so predictable that Donald Trump was going to ask for a stay. So I'm sure Jack Smith had this largely written already to oppose this day. And the problem with this day is it doesn't just pause the trial, it pauses all the pretrial motion practice. And like we're seeing happening tomorrow in Alvin Bragg's court, in the, you know, Alvin Bragg's case, Juan Marchand's courtroom in Manhattan, there's pre-trial litigation that happens before any trial.

There's discovery that gets turned over. There's motion practice that happens. So there's lots of housekeeping and substantive things that happen before trial. None of that can happen while the case is stayed and while it's on appeal. And so even if this gets resolved and it gets sent back down to Judge Chutkin, she still has to give the party's time to do those pre-trial things

that would have to happen in this case. And the thing that Jack Smith is doing by both his words and his action is really emphasizing the need for this to happen quickly. But so, you know, look, he also knows that the longer, the further out this goes, the more Trump will accuse this of interfering with the presidential election.

And so the sooner this happens, the better. And Jack Smith is absolutely, clearly signalling to the Supreme Court. And look, he did this before, if you remember, when he tried to leapfrog the DC circuit and go straight to the Supreme Court. And there he was like, because this is so important and has to go quickly. And so they saw that they denied it, but they know how, how much time is of the essence. And, and so, so Jack Smith isn't going to wait a day because, because we're playing a game of inches here because every day that this gets pushed out further is a day that it could

potentially get too close to the election and not be able to proceed. As you go deeper into the filing, you get to page 36, 37, one of the things that Jacksonment says is, look, you shouldn't even need to hear this on certiorari. You don't even need to, you previously denied it when we requested you hear it. We now see what the DC Circuit did. You don't need to hear it Supreme Court. But look, I get that we kind of made this request that you hear it before. So we can see that maybe, you know, you may take the fact that we've asked you before as a way that we feel that you should hear this for oral argument. So if you do, let's not have, we don't need a whole briefing schedule here on whether or not

Sushi or Rory should be granted. Just convert this into a rid of Sushi or Rory, meaning the request that you hear it, and then quickly schedule dates for oral argument. And it's a brilliant move by Jack Smith. And look what you did. And Jack Smith says, look what you did in the 14th Amendment Section 3, Trump v. Anderson case. That's the case involving the Colorado Supreme Court disqualification, the oral argument that we heard earlier last week.

And Jack Smith said, look, from January 6th, whenever you issued the order to like, you know, February, early February, you move quick there. Just do that here, set oral argument, you know, basically sometime in March, we'll be ready to go. So smart move in the alternative, just set oral argument on the underlying appeal. We shouldn't have to go through all of these other steps, knowing that all Trump's gonna wanna do here is delay, delay, delay. In Karen, we see that delay, delay, delay tactic

with Judge Eileen Cannon, right? And, you know, when you give Donald Trump everything he asks for, you, your docket looks like Judge Eileen Cannon. I mean, it's like the messiest, sloppiest, corrupt, incompetent, you know, you know, the strangest thing I've seen. I mean, I'll just show you this recent paperless order from yesterday, which was a paperless order clarifying SEPA section for hearing for February 13th, 2024, starting at 10.30 a.m. The court will conduct a sealed hearing with the Special Counsel and Cleared Counsel for defendants Nauta and Dayolivera. Cleared counsel shall be prepared to discuss the classified information produced in classified

discovery in the context of the quote relevant and helpful standard, end quote, and the mens rea applicable to counts 33 to 37 and 39 to 42, and the superseding indictment to present argument on the special counsel's request to withhold all the information from defendants now to endale of era pursuant to SEPA section four and to discuss specifics with respect to the current figures of materials produced in classified discovery, including whether any of that information overlaps with unclassified discovery and or

merits clarification. The hearing will be held in a facility suitable for the discussion of classified information. Defendants now to Andale Rivera may not be present. Defending Trump is not required to appear counsel for defendant Trump may attend Final sepa section for ex parte session with the special counsel to follow the 10 30 a.m. Session I mean Karen like like one session another session like this isn't like a job Interview like sepa section for classified information procedures like section four. This is a fairly routine thing that takes place in classified information procedure at cases.

What we're showing you right there is a prior order that she made setting like a pre-hearing, SEPA hearing section four on January 31st first then she said another one for February 12th then another one for February 13th and Karen it's just like when you're dealing with classified information procedure SEPA section 4 the issue is the government wants to hold certain classified information and substitute it with something the The government shows up, they show the judge, the judge goes, okay, you can keep it secret because it's not relevant and helpful, but maybe do a substitution, so that the defense can have the material.

Or the judge says, turn it over, you make a ruling. And then if you don't like the ruling and you're the government, you have an automatic appeal to the 11th Circuit. Like it's that simple. It's that simple, that easy, but she's making a mess of pre-hearing SIPA to a pre-pre-hearing, to a pre-pre-hearing. It's like she doesn't know what she's doing.

I don't like that she met with Trump and Trump's lawyers first and alone with them on February 12th. There's a lot of issues there too. What about the attorney's eyes only documents? How do the lawyers separate that when their clients in the room with Donald Trump? Was there a classified information security officer present in that room as well when Trump was there? So these were a lot of questions that I had. Ultimately, special counsel, Jack Smith, I think, is teeing up his appeal before the 11th circuit on some of these other bad rulings when Judge Cannon had to finally make rulings about removing redactions from witness, government witnesses, and other kind of confidential government lists and government

witness interviews that are all supposed to be confidential. So Jack Smith has positioned this the right way there, but it continues to be so mind-boggling just how poor she is on the bench and how it's just a kind of a perfect storm of corruption met by incompetence. It's shocking, actually. She is absolutely... First people were saying, oh, she doesn't know what she's doing.

She's a green new judge, but it is clear she is in no hurry to have this case. On the one hand, she's so dishonest, right? Because on the one hand, in May, the case is still scheduled to go to trial, yet there is nothing that she's doing to keep it on schedule and to make it so that it would go in May. So I don't know why she won't just do what Judge Chutkin did,

which is remove the trial March 4th from the calendar. I don't know why she won't just do what Judge Chutkin did, which is remove the trial March 4th from the calendar when she knew it wasn't happening, because that's what you do when you know something is not happening, but Judge Cannon won't do it. But just the amount of time that she gave for this hearing from when these filings were, it was like over a month. And why is

she dragging things on? Why is she dragging things along? Why is this taking so long? Why does she summarily keep denying the things that Jack Smith is asking for? And he's asking for things that involve our national security. It involves also it involves witnesses and witnesses lives and people protection and it's like she's just absolutely rules against the government or that's for a sort of initial or her initial gut and and then she and then she and she and she does this these things for Donald Trump it seems like she's helping him. And like I said, if anything, she is helping him

delay the case, which is exactly what Donald Trump wants. That's what he wants is a delay. That's how he wins. Because he can't win substantively in this case. There's just no way because he's guilty 10 ways to Sunday. But he wants to win by never having to face any accountability. And Jack Smith is smart, right?

He's been citing Judge Cannon to Judge Cannon in the motions, right? Cases she worked on when she was a prosecutor to kind of remind her, Judge, this is how you've ruled in other cases when you weren a prosecutor, to kind of remind her, Judge, this is how you've ruled in other cases when you weren't ruling or this is how the argument that you made when you were a prosecutor in another case that supports the position that we're bringing. So be intellectually honest. This is something that you yourself worked on and argued and it's the law. And so I don't know.

It's just I've never seen anything like it. I've never seen I've never seen a federal judge that judges. The thing is I revere the institution of courts and judges as do you. And judges have always been the ones who rise above the advocates, right? You've got two different sides who are each advocating for their own position, and the judge is supposed to rise above that and really do the right thing. And in this particular case, it just doesn't seem like the right thing is happening, and it's just very frustrating because this case doesn't seem like it's going to go before

the election. Yes. And I'll say this though, I definitely isn't going to go before the election. But I think one of the good things though is that Trump has the worst instincts. Trump has the instincts of a perennial lifelong loser. The same way he thinks it's a winning issue for him and the Republican Party to scuttle a border deal so he could whine about it. I think we saw in New York that being rejected and lining and crying and complaining about problems when there are solutions is actually,

who guessed it, not a winning solution. The ultimate irony of this all, Karen, is that the better strategy for Trump, and it's too late now, so I'm not giving him any secrets or anything and giving him a roadmap, would have been to go full speed, I think, on the trial in front of Judge Cannon and had her, you know, basically do all of the corrupt machinations once there was a jury selection process and then try to, you know, that's maybe, you know, with Judge Cannon, the only possible case you could win only because of Judge Cannon's corruption. If you're going to take your shot anywhere, you take it before the judge who's your stooge. Rather than doing that, he's continued to delay everything there. Remember early on, Judge Cannon found in favor of Trump to allow this delay,

so that allowed all of the other cases, say for Fulton County, Georgia, to really get in there in prime position before Judge Eileen Cannon and take priority in these other cases that, you know, that we're starting to see. So ultimately, I think it was a real big strategic blunder as well, but, you know, I think that's actually good for justice. I want to see the DC case go first.

I want to see the Manhattan District Attorney case to go first. And because the Manhattan DA criminal case is a pretty finite document-based case, that's a shorter one to try. So you can now potentially squeeze in Manhattan, NDC, federal by this summer and have Trump convicted in two separate felony cases, two separate felony cases on multiple felony counts by the time we finish the summer. So to me, that's good news, Karen. Let me give you the final word of the show. Yeah.

I agree with you that the Alvin Brad case is very straightforward. It's mostly documents, but I think it's probably a four to five week trial plus jury selection depending on how long the cross examinations are and stuff like that, but that shouldn't go on past that. So I agree with you. You could have two trials by the time the election in November. And whatever the verdict is, however it comes out, I do think the American people have a right to have a jury

of Donald Trump's peers chosen by Donald Trump, right? Because right now, there's so much politics in the other, so many accusations in the other's so much Donald Trump says Joe Biden is doing all these things, even though it's not true, but it's all gotten so political. But when you have a trial and you go to court, that's where all politics goes out the door. There's no place in a court of law for anything political. It's just relevant admissible facts and evidence that comes in. And it is a jury of your peers that decides. This is a jury that Donald Trump gets to pick. Both sides have to

agree on the jurors. Both sides have an opportunity to knock people off the jury. So the 12 men and women who are going to be sitting on the jury that are judging him criminally, they're the ones who are going to look at the witnesses in the eye, evaluate the evidence and determine whether the prosecution has met their burden beyond a reasonable doubt as to each and every element of the crime. And so when that happens, and if he's convicted, that is convicted by a jury he chose, and

it's a jury of his peers, the same standard that's in every courtroom across the United States of America. So if that occurs, he can no longer say, this is a witch hunt, it's a persecution or anything else because it's not Alvin Bragg, who's going to find him guilty. It's not Eileen Cannon, it's not Judge Chutkin, it's not Letitia James, it's not any of those people. It is 12 jurors who will have spoken one way or the other. Karen, thanks for letting me co-host

this midweek edition with you of Legal AF. It's always an honor to do this with you and to fill in and the shoes of Michael Popak. I want to wish everybody watching Happy Valentine's Day. I want to give a special Valentine's Day wishes to my fiance, Sochi. Happy Valentine's Day and Happy Valentine's Day to all the Legal A-effors out there. You were part of this pro-democracy family. We are grateful for you and you are in our thoughts. Thank you so much. I want to wish everybody a great day, great night. I love your romantic. You say, Karen, what are your last words? And I'm like, all, you know,

whatever. You're like, Happy Valentine's Day to my fiance. You're so cute. Okay. That's where, you know, when the plaintiff gets the first closing and then the defense goes and then the plaintiff can kind of just, you know, win over the jury, you know, that's the game plan there. Thank you everybody for watching, but for real, Karen, myself, Michael Popak, the whole legal AF family and everybody here at the Midas Touch Network is so grateful for you. You inspire us. Thank you so much, and shout out to the Midas.