Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Judge Holds Strange Hearing on Musk's Role at White House

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

The DC federal judge responsible for one of Trump’s original criminal cases is about to rule on whether to issue a restraining order now, or a preliminary injunction in 2 weeks, to stop Musk from accessing federal data or firing people. Michael Popok reports on the Judge finding the Trump DOJ’s comments that they “don’t know if people have been fired” and that “Musk doesn’t have actual or formal authority” to do so, lacking credibility during a rare Holiday hearing. Elevate your workspace and energize your year with Uplift Desk. Go to https://upliftdesk.com/legalaf for a special offer exclusive to our audience. Visit https://meidasplus.com for more! Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is an ad from BetterHelp online therapy. We always hear about the red flags to avoid in relationships, but it's just as important to focus on the green flags. If you're not quite sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify those qualities so you can embody the green flag energy and find it in others. BetterHelp offers therapy 100% online and sign up only takes a few minutes. Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.help.com. It's time for Judge Chutkin to weigh in about Elon Musk and Doge

with a rare holiday hearing I'm covering right here on the Midas Touch Network and Legal Layoff on Michael Popak. Judge Chutkin, you may recall, was the judge presiding over all things Donald Trump, criminal case and election interference. Now she's back because she's one of dozens of judges in the DC courts, DC federal courts that are now responsible for about half of the lawsuits that have been filed. More than 70, 7-0 lawsuits have been filed against Donald Trump's worst instincts and his administration and his executive orders, many of them about Elon Musk and Doge. What is Doge? It was the website master for the United States, but

in the hands of Donald Trump and Elon Musk, it's an unconstitutional assault on our federal agencies and federal funding. States are joining together. This time we've got a hearing involving 13 different states who have brought a case against Elon Musk and Donald Trump to stop them from dismantling federal agencies. All the federal agencies that you can think of in particular. particularly the ones related to labor, education, health and human services, energy, and transportation. Now Judge Chutkin was a bit skeptical on Friday, not about the merits of the case, and I'm

going to tell you about the hearing that happened today, but she was a bit skeptical about one aspect of when you're entitled to the extraordinary relief of an injunction. Many of the things we talk about now on Legal Ayat have to do with some sort of what we call equitable relief that you're asking a federal judge for generally in the form of a temporary restraining order or a preliminary injunction.

Judges also sit in law in which they award money or they make declarations or they make findings. But when they're asked to enjoin or stop something, you as the moving party, we call that party the movement, have to satisfy four criteria. And the one that's hanging up Judge Chutkin right now, and Judge Reyes, a neighboring judge next door, who's wondering whether she has the power

to enjoin something related to the inspector's general who were all fired, all comes down to the same thing. I've been doing this for 35 years, and federal judges do not have the power or jurisdiction to issue injunctions unless the party that's asked for the injunction will be irreparably harmed by The fact that the that the conduct is not being stopped irreparable harm is

Something where judges sort of know it when they see it. It's something that can't be compensated by money damages You can't unscramble the egg or put the toothpaste back in the tube. It's irreparable in that way. They can't fix it at a later time if it hasn't stopped now. It often goes hand in glove with another concept that's called adequate remedy at law. That they don't have the party moving for the injunction doesn't have an adequate remedy at law.

They can't be compensated with money. It doesn't help them. People will die. Bad things will happen. Planes will fall out of the sky. You know, that type of thing. And judges are very, because they have limited jurisdiction, federal judges in particular, they're very circumspect when parties come into their, into their

chambers or into their courtroom where they require hearings and about irreparable harm. And so you're going to hear a lot on legal layout. This is sort of a little bit of a Ted Talk law school breakout session here on this particular hot take. And the reason the judge is concerned is because the attorneys general before her, starting on Friday and now on this president's day, the ones for the attorneys general led by New Mexico really couldn't answer the question for her. What is the harm that will happen over the next 72 hours until Monday? Because they asked her to enjoin or stop or block Elon Musk from, and Donald Trump from

cutting funding and putting these agencies out of business over the weekend. And they really, for some reason, couldn't articulate a harm that couldn't be fixed on Monday morning. And that sort of set us off on the wrong foot with the judge. Now look, the judge is likely to find, ultimately, that Elon Musk has unconstitutionally

taken the reins of power that violate the Constitution's appointment clause because he wasn't properly appointed to that position nor confirmed by the Senate. Now the Trump administration tries to wallpaper that over by saying, well, no, he's just an advisor. He's advisory. Nobody believes that, by the way. And he's not independently acting.

So for the judge, she's gonna ultimately have to find, and I think she will, at a later time, that Elon Musk is doing unconstitutional abuse of power things. But for right now, the issue, the sort of the academic issue, is whether there is a reparable harm if she doesn't stop it now. She's going to hold a preliminary injunction hearing,

which is the next level up from a TRO, which is what the hearing on Monday was about, in the next 14 days. The question is for her, does she have to stop Elon Musk from doing stuff right now, or can we just get to the preliminary injunction hearing? Not every preliminary injunction,

which will last until the end of the case, is preceded by a temporary restraining order. Many are, and I would say in 80% of my cases, where I've gotten a TRO, where I've sought a preliminary injunction, I've gotten a TRO in advance, a sought a preliminary injunction, I've gotten a TRO in advance, a temporary restraining order, but not every case. And the judge is basically saying,

not that I don't believe that I'm gonna give you the injunction. The question is whether I'm gonna give you a preliminary injunction in two weeks, or I'm gonna give you an early injunction, we call a temporary restraining order now. And so the things that were held up that that's holding up the process now, this academic discussion and debate between the judge and the

lawyers about irreparable harm, sort of falls by the wayside in about two weeks. Because she can still find irreparable harm moving forward on a full briefing, on a full record, if she's not finding it now. And it doesn't mean because she didn't grant the TRO that she's also unlikely to grant the preliminary injunction. In fact, quite the oppositeRO that she's also unlikely to grant the preliminary injunction. In fact, quite the opposite. I think she's going to grant the preliminary injunction in two weeks. She's just going to let them do whatever they're going to do in the meantime, which also strengthens

the hand of the 14 or so attorney generals because they'll be able to document the damage over the next 14 days. And I think that's what she's trying to do. If I were a betting man or guessing, I think Judge Chutkin is trying to help the movements here, the attorneys general, by giving them the ability to develop a better record by watching closely what happens the next 14 days

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about temporary restraining orders and preliminary injunctions. Today's hearing though was no walk in the park or a picnic for the Department of Justice now under Donald Trump and Pam Bondi. In fact, she found them to be incredulous and incredible and unbelievable and lacking credibility during most of their arguments. For instance, they actually said out loud, this doesn't even pass the straight face test,

they actually said out loud in court in response to a question from Judge Chutkin about the power of Elon Musk, which we all see. He's claiming that he got rid of US aid and it's $60 billion and it's thousands of employees, which happened. He got rid of, you know, of 20 percent, sorry, 10 percent or more of the federal workforce. These are all coming out of Elon Musk. But when the Department of Justice lawyer was asked by Chuckin about it, that lawyer said, there's no evidence that Musk has any formal or actual authority over government actions.

What? Even the judge says, I think you've stretched too far there. And what we have a concept in the law about actual authority and then sort of de facto or apparent authority. He may not have on the unlisted as part of his powers or his remit because he wasn't properly appointed being part of the Doge services,

which used to be the webmaster, he doesn't have that power actually or formally. I agree with you, Department of Justice personnel, but he has a parent or de facto authority and he's wielding it and he's using it. I mean, even the lawyer for the attorneys general said the following, Even the lawyer for the attorneys general said the following, about Musk, quote, he has transformed a minor position

that was formally responsible for managing government websites into a designated agent of chaos without limitation and in violation of the separation of powers, right? He's supposed to be the webmaster of America. You know, and instead he's this one man wrecking crew of all things that you and I hold dear. So that was the first area where Chutkin was like, yeah, I'm not buying that. She then asked a point by, I mean, you come into court, you better be prepared to answer

not even hard questions. The questions get harder from here. Here's the fundamental question that Chuck can ask the Department of Justice under Bondi and Trump. Isn't it a fact that thousands of federal workers were fired over the last few days, including by Elon Musk, and to which the lawyer responded,

I have not been able to independently confirm that. She said, I'm sorry, you come into my, it's not a small thing, thousands of employees to be fired and you can't figure out whether it happened or not. See, this is what I've said from the very beginning at the start of these 70 cases, that the Department of Justice lacks credibility

in a way that it never had before under Biden or other, even under Republican presidents. And now federal judges, including the ones in the moderate to liberal states are not buying anything that the Department of Justice is selling under Trump, not believing it, putting their feet to the fire, challenging them at every cause

because they don't have any credibility. When I was a lawyer in courtrooms around the fire, challenging them at every cause, because they don't have any credibility. When I was a lawyer in courtrooms around the country, when I made an argument or make an argument in front of a judge, I have enough credibility that the judge knows that I'm not going to mislead them. I'm not going to tell them the law stands for a proposition that it doesn't stand for. I'm not going to lie to them about the facts of the law. And as a benefit, I get a little bit of credibility related to that. However, here there's no credibility at the start

of any argument by a DOJ employee for Donald Trump because they take outlandish, unreasonable positions that are inconsistent with the law, the constitution, and facts. And judges are saying, yeah, I don't buy you. I don't believe you. And so that's where we are right now. Now what's gonna happen is in the next 24 hours,

we're gonna get the actual ruling from Tanya Chutkin, the judge, but let me just give you, spoiler alert, let me tell you what I think is gonna happen based on her being, scrunching up her nose a bit about the irreparable harm between now and 14 days from now. She didn't really find irreparable harm

from Friday to Monday. I don't think she's going to find it from here to 14 days. Again, it doesn't mean she's not going to ultimately grant the preliminary injunction. It just means she doesn't need to grant a temporary restraining order in advance. And again, federal judges don't like to waste their power. They have limited jurisdictional power. And if there's no irreparable harm right now, as she said out loud, I can't do a prophylactic temporary restraining order. What is the harm ongoing in the future that I need to prevent?

They're not articulating it properly. I think that group has to regroup, the group of 14 attorney general, come back to her in 14 days on full briefing and take another shot at irreparable harm. And I think they'll win that at that time. So I think we're going to see a denial of the temporary restraining order by Judge Chutkin, but not all hope is lost.

In fact, quite the opposite. I think in 14 days after full briefing, she will grant the preliminary injunction, block Elon Musk and Doge from continuing to run a wrecking ball and have access to information and all those departments that I mentioned at the top of the hot take, right? And that'll be the case until the end of a trial. We'll continue to follow it right here on the Midas Touch Network and on Legal AF.

You know where you can follow me. I'm Michael Popak, right here on the Midas Touch Network, about four or five times a day. Then a new channel, Legal AF, the YouTube channel, Legal AF MTN. Four million subscribers on the MidasTouch Network. Come on the ground floor and help us build four million over on Legal AF in collaboration with MidasTouch. We're at a half a million and we've only been up and running about

five months. So get in on the ground floor, hit the subscribe button, tell your friends and family and others in your life that we're growing this whole thing organically, right? On a dollar and a prayer. So a dollar and a dream is how we're growing this. I really appreciate you being here. I got a brand new podcast Tuesday nights, tomorrow night, Tuesday nights at 8 p.m. Eastern time. Popak Live, you guessed it, it's me, unbridled, unfiltered,

sometimes unhinged, 8 p.m. right here on Midas Touch and Legal AF. So until my next reporting, I'm Michael Popok. In collaboration with the Midas Touch Network, we just launched the Legal AF YouTube channel. Help us build this pro-democracy channel where I'll be curating the top stories, the intersection of law and politics. Go to YouTube now and free subscribe at Legal AF MTN.

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