Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Law Experts Karen Friedman Agnifilo & Michael Popok React to this Week’s BOMBSHELLS | Legal AF

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

The Midweek Edition of the top-rated news podcast, LegalAF x MeidasTouch, is back for another hard-hitting look in “real time” at this week’s most consequential developments at the intersection of law and politics. On this episode, co-anchors national trial lawyer Michael Popok and former prosecutor Karen Friedman Agnifilo analyze and discuss: The 17 count felony conviction of 2 subsidiaries of the Trump Organization in a Manhattan courtroom; the new revelation that more classified documents have been found in a Trump storage unit in Florida; the New York Attorney General’s recent deal to let Ivanka Trump out from under reporting all her personal finances to the court-ordered Financial Monitor in the civil fraud case; the Manhattan DA’s hiring this week of a senior Trump-busting attorney who had worked at the DOJ and New York Attorney General’s office as it considers prosecuting Trump for other crimes; Special Counsel Jack Smith’s first new wave of grand jury subpoenas directed at state and local election officials, and so much more. DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS: Bombas: https://bombas.com/LegalAF Masterworks: https://masterworks.art/LegalAF GET MEIDAS MERCH: https://store.meidastouch.com Remember to subscribe to ALL the Meidas Media Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 The Weekend Show: https://pod.link/1612691018 The Tony Michaels Podcast: https://pod.link/1561049560 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the midweek edition of Legal AF, where you go to hear the most consequential stories at the intersection of law and politics and boy do we have a lot to talk about this week. We're gonna we're gonna cover with my co-anchor Karen Friedman-Eck Nipolo, a former prosecutor, a current amazing person and defense counsel. We're gonna talk about a 17-count felony conviction that was obtained by Karen's old office, the Manhattan DA's office against two major subsidiaries of the Trump Organization,

Reed Donald Trump's main companies in a Manhattan courtroom. We'll next talk about the new revelations that there are even more classified documents, surprise, surprise, and they've been found in a Trump storage unit in Florida only after Chief Judge Barrel Howell ordered his lawyers to, you got to do better in search more places because I think there's more classified documents out there. And boy, was she right and doesn't that mean you can't trust Donald Trump or Donald Trump's lawyers on classified document issues at all moving forward. We'll also talk about the New York Attorney General's recent deal to let Ivanka Trump

out from underreporting all of her personal finances to the court ordered financial monitor in the civil fraud case brought against her, her brothers and her father by the New York Attorney general. What's going on there? Why would Ivanka Trump be let out from under this financial reporting requirement when Latisha James is holding all the cards? I have a speculation Karen does too and we'll talk about it and we get to that segment. We'll also talk about the Manhattan District Attorney's Office hiring this week of a senior Trump busting attorney

who had worked at a senior level at the Department of Justice and the New York Attorney General's Office had worked with Alvin Bragg in the past. His back for a new stint at the Manhattan DA's office, he'll be doing a lot of things, but one thing I'm sure he's going to be doing is adding some muscularity and turbocharging to Alvin Bragg's newfound look and newfound desire to see if there's a way to prosecute Donald Trump, whether it's over insurance fraud or it's over the Stormy Daniels affair and election law violations. There is another new sheriff in town working with Alvin Bragg and we'll talk about him

as we round out tonight's podcast. And then finally, for those that think, well, Jack Smith is still over in the Netherlands nursing a broken leg. He's not letting any grass grow under those broken feet. He's just issued his first wave of grand jury subpoenas that are directed at state and local election officials related to the fraudulent electors, slate of electors, the false slate of electors, and interference by Trump himself in vote counting and certification at the state and local government level. That's Jack Smith putting his firm DNA and imprint on this prosecution now that he

is the lead prosecutor for all things related to Jan 6th and Donald Trump. Karen, we did a, we did an amazing, I want to first pat you on the back because you're indefat, fatigable. I spelled it better than I can say it. You're tireless, you're relentless, you stayed on for an hour and a half. We did, we broke the story of the Trump Organization's 17-count felony conviction within 15 minutes of hearing it reported. We were on the air with a special edition of Legal AF, which people can go on YouTube and on our podcast platforms and find. You and I scrambled, we put it together. We were on, I mean, I was still sweating from like, you don't even know, I was walking the dog

when I said I needed 10 more minutes. Fortunately, the little puppy cooperated with me, did her business in time for me to run back to the house. And then you and I jump right on, you're giving all that insider stuff we're gonna talk about today in a little bit of a shorter version about your old office. And then we brought Michael Cohen in, the form of Consul Yehri, the Donald Trump, was served

time in the big house because he was prosecuted, but all of his testimony and all of his cooperation led to Latisha, James's New York Attorney General, civil suit and what Alvin Bragg is currently going to be looking at with Stormy Daniels. What a show. 300,000 people have already seen it or heard it. It was great. How'd you like that? Did you find that fun? It's fun to do the three of us, I think.

It was also fun to be so spontaneous and hop on. And yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. It was really great. Yeah, me too. And we brought in on the three of us. I anchored the beginning with Karen, and then I dashed off and Ben Mysalis, co-founder of LegalAff and MyAncher on the weekends, co-hacker on the weekends. He came in and kind of we did another version of

the show through Ben's eyes with Karen, Karen stayed on the saddle the entire hour and a half having to put up with both of her co-anchors, Michael Pope, and Ben Mysales. But without further ado, for those that come to the midweek edition to find out everything they need to know, to be conversant on all issues, legal and political, let's kick it off with the tremendous, there's no other way to put this. The tremendous victory, prosecutorial victory by the Manhattan DA's office on all 17 felony counts of tax evasion and fraud against two major subsidiaries of the Trump organization, the two entities that they do all their business through, which is Trump payroll, which pays everybody.

And the Trump Corporation, which operates all their businesses. And let me turn it over to you, Karen, enough of me. Let's turn it over to you, the former lead prosecutor in that office. You know all the people that prosecuted this case. You got all of your opinions that I want to hear them. Here you go. Tell me about what you saw in the result. And where do we go from here with Donald Trump? I think it's a clear victory for the Manhattan DA's office.

And it shows that the Manhattan DA's office still is the way it's always been under Mr. Morgan Thaw and then Sy Vance where they take on big cases without fear of favor. And there is no case that's too big or too important or too complicated for them to handle. So I really credit the lawyers at the Manhattan DA's office who are just truly extraordinary, especially Josh Steinglas, who is the lead prosecutor and Susan Hoffinger. So they were excellent and they did most of the trial. There was a whole team involved that were great. And Alvin Bragg for supporting them and for giving them the resources and just the ability

to prosecute this case and try this case. And the way they tried it, I think, really shows how exceptional they are as lawyers. I mean, they really didn't over try the case. They had a cooperator who, in the form of Alan Weiselberg, who refused to implicate Trump, and they had one other live witness who basically, they had to call him as a hostile witness, which means normally you don't get to cross-examine your own witness, but as

a hostile witness, you can cross-examine them, and they were permitted to do that. And those were their two witnesses. They also had lots and lots of documents, but on summation, Josh Stanglass really, I think, really tied the organization and the law that applies to the organization to get this conviction across the finish line. What they had to show was that not only that the,

that Alan Weiselberg and other top level officials were committing the crimes of tax fraud and scheme to defraud and all the other crimes they were convicted of, there were 17 in total over a period of about 13 years. But they had to show that in some way it benefited the company, that it wasn't just for the sole benefit of Mr. Weiselberg. So it was clear, because obviously when you prosecute a corporation, no one's going to jail. There's no person who you are prosecuting.

So how do you prove a case like that? And so the way you prove it is that you prove that a high level person was acting both in his own interest but also in the company's interest. And Josh Steinglas in his summation he used a single piece of paper, one exhibit to show that this was for the benefit of it was sanctioned at the highest level. And he had a piece of paper that was signed, it was a memo signed by Donald Trump himself explicitly sanctioning tax fraud on the part of one of their executives, Matthew Kalamari, saying he received a low or salary. And then Josh Dyingglass was able to show through through his summation and through all the evidence that they presented on how exactly the company benefited from it.

And it's clear it benefited in many levels. It benefited because they saved a lot of money not having to pay payroll tax. They saved money by not having to pay salaries. And they also kept their employees happy and loyal. So I think it was really well done, well tried, not over tried, and you have to have the confidence to do that, to be a senior attorney. And the jury was only out for 10 hours, and they got a sweeping conviction. And I think that I get the impression that Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan DA, felt very confident

that things were going to go this way because during while the jury had the case, he announced that a new person was joining Matthew Colangelo who was also going to work on the Trump case or on other Trump investigations. So I think Alvin Bragg has gotten his mojo and his sea legs. It's been almost a year now since he's been DA. He had a little bit of a rocky start, but I think he's off to a good start, and it's very clear that he's very much

in the midst of additional investigations into Trump. Let's talk a little bit about what's gonna happen to the Trump organization now that they are convicted. There were two companies of the Trump organization that were convicted, And what's going to happen, it's going to be on for sentencing in January of 2013. I think it's the 23rd that it was put over for. And I'm sorry, it's January 13th of 2023. That's what it was put over for. And what's going to happen, they can be sentenced

to restitution, which means payback, what they owe. So something to the tune of $1.6 million, which is widely reported, a rounding error for this company that makes hundreds of millions a dollars a year. And they can also be fined, I think $10,000 here or there, depending on the charge. So it's not a lot of money.

The judge could also impose what's known as a conditional discharge, which means the judge can impose reasonable conditions on the company. There's already lots of conditions on the company, such as from the civil case that Tish James has, the monitor, Barbara Jones that we talked about and you talked about just now. And so there are other conditions that can be imposed. The problem is if the company violates those conditions, there's not a lot that the judge can do.

I think they can find the company another $10,000. So there's not a lot of teeth in this conviction, but I do think it's significant. It's the very first conviction of a Trump organization and of anyone close to Trump or Trump. I know he wasn't convicted himself, but it's getting closer to him. I think this is a reputational harm to him, both in the financial world, in the lending world, and in the political world,

and we'll see what the ramifications are. But I think this is just the beginning. This is not the end of what we're going to see happening when it comes to criminal liability for Donald Trump, his children, and the Trump organization. So let me talk about that. That was a great summary in your opinions. And strongly held opinions you had that were not favorable to Alvin Bragg earlier, but you giving credit where credit is due.

And I agree with you, he was getting his mojo, and yes, the timing while the jury was still out to announce he was adding members to his team to go after Donald Trump, among other things, I think was not, I'm sure he was getting reports having not been in the courtroom, per se, getting reports that things were going increasingly well for the prosecution shout out and kudos to the jury. We are in an adversarial system that's driven by jury's juries, get it. No matter how complicated financial crime issues are juries when they're in the hands, if you will, of a proper prosecutor presentation and believe with credibility of the prosecutors, they get it and they can sort through evidence and they did this in short order.

It was less than one hour per count for them to come back. And if you did if you deduct lunch, they probably was about half an hour per count. They were able to sort it through and convict everybody. People during yesterday's podcast commented to us, well, what else can happen to a corporation? Let me just talk about that who gets convicted a corporation? Let me just talk about that. Who gets convicted of a crime? Let me talk about that. Corporations don't go to jail, obviously.

So you have to do other things towards them. This particular judge is going to be limited to the remedies that Karen outlined, fines and penalties and charging amounts and all of that. But for the things that everybody is looking for, which is the death penalty of the corporation to be put out of business, to be severely constrained on future business activities, to have the people that are part of it, the Trump and the Trump family

be limited or excluded or banned from being officers and directors of future New York corporations public or private That is up to the judge down the hall down the street no down the hall that is Handling the New York Attorney General civil fraud case and that is judge Engoron not judge Mershan judge Engoron at the end of the day if the case is proven by not Judge Mershan, Judge Engoron at the end of the day, if the case is proven by Latisha James, the civil fraud case is proven by her. He has things that his disposal like discouraging with taking, clawing back hundreds of millions

of dollars from the Trump organization banning the officers and directors, which include all the Trump children and Donald Trump himself, preventing them from conducting business affairs, the state of New York ever again, and basically a death penalty being opposed on the entity. That is in another courtroom, but don't worry. The civil fraud case that Tis James brings is based on a unique set of statutes to the state of New York, which gives tremendous power to the New York attorney general and by extension, the judge handling ongoing fraud to throw the book at fraudsters if it's so proven. So everybody's excited and loves the fact that there was a criminal conviction.

He'll, he forevermore will have to report Donald Trump that hit one of his companies that for which he was an owner and an officer was convicted of tax fraud That that screws him up rightly so when he has to fill out Applications for licensing whether it's a gaming license if he wants to go for another casino or sports betting Any kind of licensing any kind of regulatory environment where he has to fill out an application a bank He's gonna have to list now forever application, a bank, he's going to have to list now forever more that company for which he was the head was convicted, 17 counts

of a felony of tax fraud and business record alteration and fraud, which is also terrible. So this will linger with him. It doesn't matter what his press release says. It doesn't matter what his media department says. It doesn't matter what he press release says, it doesn't matter what his media department says, it doesn't matter what he says on truth, social. This is the reality of what he's going to have to report and disclose forever. Now we talk about for a minute, Ivanka Trump, I want to turn to Ivanka Trump for a moment and talk about a deal that looks like it's been cut between Ivanka Trump, who was an

officer and director of the Trump organization during the time these felonies were occurring. During the time they were paying under the table off the books if you will, Alan Weisselberg and other senior executives, you know, luxurious apartment rentals and tuition of the grandchildren and children and car services. All that was going on. She was at the Trump organization and has fingerprints related to that. And let's turn now, as long as we're talking about Trump and things of financial misdealing

about what's going on in Judge Engoron's courtroom. Let me frame it and I'll turn it over to you, Karen. Judge Engoron several weeks ago imposed based on a motion for injunction brought by the New York Attorney General, alleging continuing fraud by the Trump organization imposed a financial monitor. A financial babysitter in the form of former federal judge Barbara Jones.

And the requirement is quite extensive and quite invasive when it comes to the Trump organization and Donald Trump and his children, including Ivanka. It required, it requires not only the Trump organization to turn over all financial records, turn over financial reporting on a moment's notice, on five days notice by the by the monitor financial monitor, Barbara Jones without complaint and without any really relief back to the judge, they just have to do it. That includes their own personal financial dealings bank accounts, transactions, asset transfers and the like. And Ivanka was part of that.

She tried in the courtroom to argue she has her own counsel separate from her father. Her father is represented by Alina Haba as a lead counsel, hard to believe. She's still representing him and something so serious as a civil fraud case led by the New York Attorney General's office. But so far far she is. The brothers are being represented by one firm. And Ivanka is represented by another lawyer based in Washington, DC. She shares co-counsel with her brothers, but she's got her own counsel.

And apparently since the, the hearing in front of Judge Engoron, they have been trying to argue that Ivanka should not be subject to the financial monitoring by the financial monitor Barbara Jones because A, she wasn't really involved with any financial misdealings in fraud, so they argue. And B or two, she left the Trump Organization in 2017 when she joined her father's administration and never returned and is now just a mom and housewife in Florida and shouldn't be subject to all of these onerous conditions. That fell flat in front of Judge Engoron, but we have new reporting and a new filing

by the New York Attorney General's office about a stipulation that Latisha James is willing to accept and submit to the court and wanted to explain to our listeners and followers Karen what the stipulation is and I'll give you my speculation as to how that came about. Appulation says that Ivanka, unlike her brothers and Donald Trump, no longer is going to be subject to this financial monitoring under Barbara Jones that she's now exempt from this court order that enjoins them all from selling, transferring or otherwise disposing any of their non-cash assets. As you said, the initial order was binding on her as well as the two sons and his companies

and Weiselberg and McConey, the two people who testified at the Trump org trial, but she retained her own attorney, and now she infiled her own appeal, as you just talked about, and now everybody joined in removing her from there. I mean, it's clear to me that she's distancing herself from everybody, and that she's distancing herself from her brothers, from her father, from the Trump organization.

She said she's not going to involve herself in politics anymore. If he runs for office again, well, he is running for office again, that she's not going to be part of any of his administration, that she's just going to be their, his daughter, not his advisor anymore. So I'd love to hear what your theory is. I mean, to me, it just felt like she's just going to be their, her, his daughter, not his advisor anymore. So I'd love to hear what your theory is. I mean, to me, it just felt like she's

both distancing herself. And, you know, also unlike her brothers who, all of their money is wrapped up in their father. And in this, and in the Trump organization, Ivanka has her own financial life with her husband and her husband's brother and the father. I mean, they have their own kind of financial dealings. So maybe that's why she's distancing herself. I don't know, but I'd love to hear your theory.

Yeah. I mean, my theory is that Latisha James is a rock star. We all agree. She's incredibly smart. She's holding all of the cards. She has everyone who is a defendant in the civil case by the short hairs and by other anatomical parts and can squeeze at any time. Yet she's agreed finally with Ivanka's lawyer to let Ivanka out from financial reporting to the financial monitor. This despite the fact that in response to Ivanka out from financial reporting to the financial monitor. This despite the fact that in response to Ivanka taking the position in the courtroom with judge Engoron, that she is not responsible for any of the financial wrongdoing that they claim, you know, a teacher's office fired back with, yes, you are. We have your fingerprints on lies told to Deutsche Bank about property values related to the

derailleur country club, golf course in Miami, and the same thing in some properties in Chicago. So you are not blameless. You have blood on your hands and your fingerprints all over some of these financial misdeilings. So no, we're not going to let you out. So what changed over the course of three weeks? I don't think it's just because her lawyer is being more

reasonable and asked pretty please in a letter and maybe a meeting with Latisha. Latisha is hard-nosed. She's callous did a good way for democracy and for justice. And my gut is she extracted something in return. I'm not saying that there's been a flip by Ivanka on her father and she's dropping a dime on her dad, although wouldn't that be great? But I do believe she is going to be

the more reasonable of of interactors with the New York Attorney General's office going forward than her other than her brothers have. Remember that Ivanka fought just like her brothers fought, not to cooperate and come in for an interview, not to provide documents. She had to be compelled through an appellate process, through a court process, kicking and screaming in her testimony. I think she took the Fifth Amendment less than her brothers, at least reporting suggests that she did, but doesn't mean that she didn't throw up the roadblock of the Fifth Amendment in response to questions that were being asked of her.

But now, my God, my working theory, and I want to hear your opinion, Karen, of course, is that Latisha, there's a quid pro quo. She got something in return. It may only be, just be more cooperative with us when we want something turn it over Don't make us jump through every hoop and if so, you know, we'll treat your client a little bit better a little bit a little bit more professionally And if you don't make us jump through every hoop possible You see the writing on the wall. You see where this is going with judge Engoron just be more cooperative with us I think it's at least that it could be more, and then Latisha said, all right, then the

stipulation becomes the stipulation becomes the result of the deal between Ivanka's lawyer and Latisha James' office. What do you think, Karen? Yeah, I could be that she had some kind of document that she was holding on to or some information that she had. It could also be, I think that's a good theory, is any. I think it could also be that Latisha James is potentially streamlining her case a little bit

and showing Barbara Jones that she's reasonable, that she's not lumping everybody together. I mean, maybe there is some information that she's not as culpable, although she is somewhat culpable, not so much as her brothers and her father. And so she's just making it so that, I mean, because you don't want to over complicate things so the case doesn't move forward in time, because everyone's fighting every little thing. And if the Tisha James doesn't have concerns over how Ivanka is going to conduct herself financially over this next period of time,

I mean, the sons, you know, Eric and Don Jr. are still involved in the Trump organization. And the whole point of the monitor is to make sure that anything that is done financially, that they don't just kind of build the corporation of all its assets and secrete them and sell them off and make it so that there's nothing to ultimately claw back in the discouragement if they are victorious.

So maybe that's why they're doing it because she truly isn't involved anymore and they're just trying to streamline their investigation so that they can actually get a trial before the next election. So I don't know if she you're right. I like yours too because if you're right, she's not really, she doesn't have her hands on the levers of the Trump work, is it should anymore. So she's not going to be initiating acid transfers and other things that the attorney general's office is concerned about. And if the brothers initiated out to her, right, which would be mind bogglingly stupid, but I've seen the Trumps do a lot of stupid things, then you'll see it on the

monitoring of Don Jr. and Eric, right? You'll see the asset out. Exactly. And you don't have to worry about, you know, if her lawyer is to be believed, and I'm sure he made a proffer or maybe even gave some testimony, at least a limited testimony, about the financial dealing. She has no control over the money. Maybe she gets a distribution here and there, but her hands aren't on the levers of the financial process anymore. The way, as you said, Eric Trump running the business, Don Jr. running the business for

their dad and their dad running the business, of course. We'll keep an eye on Ivanka, Trump, and what comes out of it and the streamlining of the case as Karen so eloquently outlined. Just one more tiny point. Maybe the thing to your point that she had to give something to James, maybe what she gave was the agreement that she's no longer going to have anything to do with the Trump organization. I mean, because she did add that sentence in that said, you know, going forward, I'm going

to focus on my children and not with my father. You know, so spend more time with my family, not for forging and fraudulently doing documents. That's what everybody, you know, sign and disgrace, you know. Every time I hear that, I know a sex scandal is going to be not for vodka. But every time I hear a college coach talk

about spending more time with his family, I figure there's a sex scandal coming down. That or a news anchor or somebody. Right. So look, we're going to follow it really closely. And all things Trump, we're going to talk next about the new classified documents that were discovered. Before we get to Donald Trump continuing to secrete documents, let's talk about one of our favorite sponsors, one that's near and dear to at least our feet

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B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash what else legal AF L-E-G-A-L-A-F and use code legal AF for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombasbombsbombs.com slash legal AF code legal AF for 20% off bomba.com slash legal AF and the code is legal AF. We love bombas and thank you for being a sponsor, especially around the holiday season and helping homeless people with your business model and your program. Let's talk about this. This should come as no surprise to anybody that's a listener and follower of legal AF. Donald Trump lied about turning over all his classified documents even at this late date, even as late as Wednesday morning when his spokespeople said, no, we turned everything over. That turned out to be a lie. And now we have reporting that at least two more classified documents have been found,

not at Mar-a-Lago, but at one of the other many storage facilities, desktroers, closets, storage units, the Donald Trump owns around the country that have been searched. Why is that still going on? Everybody's been so focused on Mar-a-Lago and the search warrant execution and Judge Cannon and the now defunct and put out a business radiary, a special master, that we forget that there's still a search, there's still a subpoena, a subpoena issued by a grand jury that supervised by chief judge barrel Howell in DC, who's responsible for all things related to document turnover, not just at Mar-a-Lago, but at every place that Donald Trump touches, right?

Everywhere that he can see that is within his purview, she's responsible to make sure that he abides by the law and the subpoena and turns over all documents. And there's been hearings in her courtroom. And they are secret hearings because she is supervising a grand jury that until they're done with their work is under is under a secretive blanket, if you will. But the reporting is that she roasted the lawyers for Donald Trump and said, I don't believe you. You're not searching in the right places. You're not searching hard enough. And if you're going to attest to me that everything has been searched, you better be sure about it. Are you really sure that every place has been searched? Because

if they look, they have to, they're on the horns of a dilemma or the sword is over their necks because they know that the Department of Justice has cooperating witnesses that have told them that there are documents located in other places other than Mar-a-Lago. Think Trump Tower where he lives in Manhattan, up with Avenue. Think the D'Areal Country Club where he goes, think Betminster in New Jersey where he goes. Think other properties around the country where he goes and think, bet, minister in New Jersey, where he goes, think other properties around the country, where he goes, and something we hadn't even thought of, but came to light recently by the Washington Post because they, because where the two documents have now

been found based on Judge Howell's instructions to go back to the drawing board and search all those locations, we forgot ex presidents are given a budget and are given rented office space, maybe at Mar-a-Lago, maybe somewhere else, by the GSA, the government entity that's responsible for all these things, the general services administration. They're given a staff, right? They're given a budget. Everybody has one. Clinton has one, Carter has one.

All the live former presidents have an office that we we the taxpayers are paying for, including Secret Service coverage. And one of the one of the things that Trump got as part of his office setup was a storage unit run by the GSA and West Palm Beach Florida near Mar-a-Lago. Okay, that'd be a good place to search for classified documents and low and behold, after Judge Barrel howl ordered them to go search there, they found two classified documents. Now, this is where I turn it over to Karen. You're Barrel howl, you're the judge. You get to do, you're the judge of the world, you get to make, you now have reporting directly back to you by the

defense, by Trump's lawyers, that you're right, judge. We looked, we used our own investigator, our own search company that we paid for. And yes, you were right. We found in one location two documents. You take them at their word or what do you do next if you're barrel how on moving this forward? Well, so let me just back up a little bit on something that you said so first of all when you Obviously the president of the United States no matter who it is But in this case Donald Trump had a staff when he was at the White House And so you don't just have papers flying around everything is very highly regulated Everybody if classified documents are coming into his possession,

people know that this document went from point A to point B, there's a record of it, and they know if it doesn't come back. So it's not like they're guessing. It's not like they're saying we don't believe you necessarily that you have these documents. But it's not just that they know that not only that he has classified documents, but they also know that he has other presidential records that belong to us, that belong to the National Archives.

And again, it's because they know, for example, when Kim Jong-un handed him a card, you know, that was given to him. They know whether or not they have that. And so that was one of the things that was widely reported that the National Archives says they didn't have. So there's lots of things that the National both in combination with the National Archives, as well as the intelligence agencies who know

where are these copies of these classified documents that were given to Donald Trump in the White House. We don't have them, they were never given back. So there is a list somewhere of what the missing documents are. And therefore, when the DOJ goes into Barrel Howell and says there are missing documents, they know that they are missing documents.

They're not guessing. So depending on whether there are still missing documents and whether these two are the last two on their list or there's others, I think will depend on what Barrel Howell does. If the DOJ says no, there's these other 10 documents that we know are missing. These ones are classified, these are nuclear codes

or nuclear secrets or whatever, super top secret, whatever records, I think that Barrel Howell will say, look, go back and look some more. Interestingly, Trump hired an outside group to look for these documents and to help do this conduct this search. And that was at the request of one of his lawyers, Christopher Keiss. And he's the one who suggested that the hire an outside firm, there's been some reporting that some of the other lawyers like Boris Epstein

and others didn't like this. And this is why we, one of the things we talked about in one of our previous episodes was that Kaice had been marginalized a little bit. They had some disagreement. But if I were Chris Kaice, I would want to do this too and have an outside group help look for these documents because I don't want to be held in contempt that I'm a testing that I searched for looked for something. And meanwhile, for all I know,

Trump lied to me that there's some other secret storage facility or some other drawer or some other closet that I didn't search because he's not very forthcoming and he's obviously not very reliable. So I do think it was smart for them to do that and that way at least they have some kind of, some deniability with the judge when it's gonna turn out that there will obviously be more things that are found because they're still clearly finding them.

On the flip side, Trump's gonna say, see, I just didn't know they were there. You think I packed my own boxes? I didn't pack my own boxes. Somebody else did. They stuck these boxes in this storage facility. I wasn't hiding anything. And as soon as you searched and you found them, there they were. And I paid for this outside group to search. So he's gonna use this to show he's he's quite fully cooperative. He't know, and this was an accident. And so that's, I think what his defense is going to be. One other thing I just want to point out is for people who are wondering if the Department

of Justice knows there are missing documents, and they clearly have probable cause to suggest that there are still, or at least up until yesterday, when they found these two other classified documents. There's probable cause to say that there are more missing documents. Why didn't they just execute another search warrant, or other search warrant like they did in Mar-a-Lago in August? And one thing people have to know is it's not enough just to have probable cause.

They also have to have probable cause that it's at a particular location and that that's fresh or new information. So because they did not have fresh information or new information to suggest that, for example, these documents could be at Bedminster or at this storage facility or Trump Tower in New York. That leads me to believe that something you've said all along and even said earlier in this podcast, that they clearly have someone cooperating with them who told them the records were at Mar-a-Lago. And that's why they were able to do a search warrant

at Mara Lago to go and get those documents. But I think that the DOJ still knows there are missing documents and that's why they're going to the court and saying, order him to search more and turn these over because we don't know which one of his places they are and we don't have enough fresh probable cause to go search those locations,

but we know this stuff is missing. Make him turn it over. Yeah, two observations on that. I think there's really two categories of documents. I think there's one clearly is the one that you said, which is that the National Archives has a handle on a subset of documents that must exist, that were cataloged, because when they negotiated with them for the return, remember we've already reported that Donald Trump ever the dealmaker,

even when it puts him in criminal harm's way, tried to make a deal with, okay, I'll give you the North Korea documents that you know exist in return. You give me all the Russia investigation Hillary things as if this was some sort of Lebanese bizarre where you could just make a trade for, you know, and I'm just totally crazy. Even saying it out loud, I have trouble wrapping my mind around it, my tongue around it. So there's those documents, the ones that they know about. But there are documents because of sloppy, sloppy record keeping and a complete flouting of the rules and regulations that

they don't know about. And the Donald Trump took with him and now the government is trying to get their hands on. You know, there's not like an in there should be, but there's not like an inventory. I'm sure if you went to every agency and said, what classified documents did you give Donald Trump? And then they somehow, I guess they'd be able to generate some sort of list. These are the 5,000 things we gave Donald Trump

during his presidency. OK, now let's check it against the other list to see if it was in the boxes. I'm not sure that's going to work here. Donald Trump, look, there's been reporting that Mark Meadows used to burn documents in his fireplace in the West Wing. So there's another category of documents that the National Archives has no idea what

exists and what doesn't exist. Yes, there's the parts that they know. But the government, DOJ, does have cooperative witnesses that have said, you know that little folder that Christina Bob gave you that was taped and said, this is the complete universe, one inch thick of all the classified documents. Yeah, that's not all the classified documents. Not even at Mar-a-Lago, let alone all the other places. If I'm barrel howl, the chief judge, I want to get to the bottom of some of the reporting,

but I want to out an evidence in front of me, which is what happened with Boris Epstein, the consul Yeri for Donald Trump and his attempts to withhold documents and not do a proper search of these locations. I want to hear from Chris Kice about what Chris Kice as an officer of the court, what efforts he made to do a proper intelligence search, not just of Mar-a-Lago, but of every place that his client touched, every place that he owned, every place we could have hidden documents, and I want a full reporting. And if I don't like the answers that I'm getting, I'm gonna install my own potential special master on this issue.

I'll just do my own evidentiary hearing. I don't think Trump and his lawyers can be trusted any longer with giving a full and accurate report to a federal judge. And if I'm that federal judge, the next step I have is, you know what, I don't like the reporting in the paper. Why doesn't everybody come into my chambers or into my courtroom?

And let's talk about what happened. I want a full list of every storage unit, every desk drawer, every every broom closet that Donald Trump could have touched over the last, you know, period of time. And I want a diligent, I want an affidavit from from whomever how that was searched where that was searching what was located. And if I don't like the answers ladies and gentlemen in my courtroom, then I'm going to install my own independent search team, a private company that's going to report not to the Trump lawyers, which is what's happened now and let that get filtered back to me. I'm going to have a report directly to me as a sitting federal judge. That's what I think happens here. I don't think this is just oops, like Donald Trump says.

See, I did back my own boxes. There was more stuff in there. No. I think Barrel Howell is going to be quite annoyed by the results here and the reporting here, and it's not going to trust them with process any longer and it's going to impose their own process to ensure that the grand jury's subpoenas are being respected. We're going to have to watch and see. This is the tip of the iceberg on this new reporting from the Washington Post about

the finding of these new documents and what it means, I think now, not search warrant execution around the country, but diligent search planning, independent entity, the reports to barrel howl is going to happen off of this moving forward. There's just one more thing I want to say about this. When it comes to classified records or classified documents, especially the super top secret ones, there is in a normal administration, I have no idea how they did things. They know exactly how many copies

there are, where they are kept, who takes it out, they check to make sure that the only the right people who have it can see it, and whether it comes back. So there should be a record somewhere of what documents. I look, I know you're probably think I'm naive that Donald Trump. I know I know I can tell you that's the way it should work. Remember I know that he didn't do it that way, but that's it. That's a calling if he didn't do it that way. Remember we we had my law partner Nick Rostow former general counsel for the National Security Agency and White House counsel who testified at let testified.

Sorry, who spoke to us at length. It's not a like testimony, about how classified documents are supposed to be handled, exactly the way you just laid out, which is no different than your local elementary school library with a check in and check out system. Sure. Okay, every librarian knows who took out mother goose today,

and who still has it in their backpack. Boy, I'm miss going to the children's section of the library when I was a child. Anyhow, speaking of masterpieces, I love when I segue into our sponsors. Let's talk about master works. They've been a sponsor on our show before. And reporting is calling it the hidden half. It's a bombshell report. It shows that institutions like Goldman Sachs are investing billions of dollars up to half of their total assets in alternative investments. Things outside the stock market like contemporary art, the same kind that you see on the walls of museums.

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It might be, but the first of many because I know because I've got the update on next week. It's exciting. Look at us. We've got. And for those out there that are like crap, they're doing ads. Look, we don't, none of the, let's make this clear. None of the sponsors affect content. They don't have any editorial control. Whatever comes flying out of the mouths of Ben, me and Karen,

is completely spontaneous and extemporaneous. We don't even know what we're about to say. Let alone a sponsor. So nobody, nobody, we don't shape our content based on who our sponsors are. Sometimes we don't even know who the sponsors are until moments before we get on the show. So put that aside.

And it's just a way for us to support the show and there are expenses related to the show that without having to go to our listeners and followers and make this a paid subscription, I know some people are like, I paid for YouTube without ads. Like, this is how you go on any of your favorite podcasts. I'll give you an example. I like smart lists.

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us. They allow us to do what we're doing without interruption and without interference. And that's why we're here. Let's move on to our last segment for today's podcast, which is last but really not least. It's the special counsel, Jack Smith. Boy, I like talking about him every week and every podcast. Jack Smith, superstar rock star special counsel. He's got his first wave of subpoenas under his own name signed by one of his line prosecutors, but with the start of Jack Smith, which I always like to see special counsel, and they are targeted.

Now let me just explain how we know about this. The Department of Justice does not reveal their subpoenas. They don't disclose them. It's not a press conference about them. You can't go on the website for the Department of Justice or for Jack Smith and see a detail of what this search subpoenas are. I might have said search word. What the subpoenas are, what they're asking for from a record standpoint, and the people that are involved or the targets that are involved or the targets that are listed within the subpoenas, we only know this because the people that get served or the entities that get served with the subpoenas go to the press.

And they say, yep, we got one, and they may even show it to members of the media. Here's the list. Here's the schedule in it of all the people that they're interested in, and then reporting comes out about it. But it's again, the Department of Justice isn't leaking about their investigation, or should they, but we're getting the reporting because the people that get are served with these subpoenas come out to the press. So what do we know from reporting?

We know that Jack Smith is very interested in at least 19 people that are listed on these search, these subpoenas that have gone to local election officials around the country from Wisconsin to Arizona and at least Michigan, asking for elected officials and election officials interaction with a list of 19 people, including Donald Trump, who made phone calls to certainly of these election officials, not just in Georgia, which is the subject of Fahni Wells's investigation, but also in Arizona, at least, with a phone call to a top election official. So it's been alleged also listed on this list of people that are the targets of

this investigation, or at least listed as people of interest is Sydney Powell, Rudy Giuliani, Boris Epstein, we talked about it length at the top of this podcast, who is the inside console yery and lawyer for Donald Trump and all things the fariest there. And James Troopers, who is a lawyer sitting, I believe, in Arizona, who was involved with either the fake elector scandal or other attempts to stop the certification of election results. We just saw it in Arizona where Hobbes, who is now the newly elected governor, but is still the secretary of state in charge of elections in the state, had a threatened certain counties in Arizona with jail time if they didn't get around to certifying her win over Carrie Lake.

That's what it came down to. Fortunately Hobbes, Katie Hobbes is not just Jane Doe. She's the actual secretary of state. If you're going to F with somebody, don't F with the secretary of state who's just won the governorship. Note to self, note to adult-brained election officials in these states. Don't follow the teachings of John Eastman, of Rudy Giuliani, of Troopus, follow know, follow the law. So this is the focus, fake-electric scandal, grand jury, subpoenas, and failure to certify the election.

What did you make of the reporting about the new subpoenas being issued, really, Jack Smith's first new wave at what it means for these various grand juries that he is, that he is, it affects conducting as the lead prosecutor against all things Trump and Janssix. So I think it makes sense that he or the DOJ under, you know, and him through the DOJ waited until now to do this because to do this prior to the midterms when all of these individuals were busy with an actual election, I think, just would not have made any sense. So it makes sense that right after the midterms and right after Jack Smith comes, they would issue these particular subpoenas. But what this

tells me is there is no doubt that Jack Smith is working hard and the investigation is proceeding at a very fast pace and that he is focused on the very investigations that you just talked about. I mean, there was reporting today as well that the January 6th committee is going back and forth on whether to make criminal referrals to the Department of Justice. And it just makes no sense why they would do that, given what we know about what's going on. I mean, we've seen how quickly Jack Smith has moved into action. This is absolutely clear that there are multiple criminal investigations into Donald Trump

and all of the individuals that you just mentioned. And there's no reason to make a referral. It's a symbolic move, you know, and it's usually done when perhaps there is the Department of Justice might not know about a particular crime that's happening or might not have the information or the evidence. So it just makes no sense to me why they would do it. I know they want to go on record to do it. And it what they should do though, however, is they should hand over literally everything they have to jack Smith before the Republicans take over.

You know, the Republicans. What is going to what I want to get your opinion on that? I did a hot take on it. A little known skirmish that you just touched on between the Jan 6th Committee. Hold on, I think Karen's in a noise. Somebody's in a noisy place. I am. Hold that on me. But what? Keep going. Keep going. It's near. Don't worry. Don't worry. That fire truck will end up in front of my building any minute now. The same fire truck. There's a skirmishman's been going on since before the summer, even when Merrick Garland was the lead prosecutor on the case, where the Department of Justice was not getting cooperation from the Gen 6 committee, who was playing

coy and playing hard to get with turning over 1,000 plus witness transcripts of testimony. Many of it sworn under oath and hundreds of thousands of pages of documents. We all thought sitting at home that the Gen 6 committee, of course, was whatever they were done with their little piece of evidence, they'd turn it over to the Department of Justice. Turns out that's not the case, which required the Department of Justice to recreate

from scratch a lot of this evidence. But now they've already done it. As you said, with the going at a business sale that the JAN-6 committee is currently undergoing, get this evidence out to the Department of Justice to help turbo charge Jack Smith's investigation, right? Exactly. I mean, you know, the net, you know, it's exactly right. I mean, you know, the Department of Justice for a whole year, this is where I, you know,

where I get critical. For a whole year was essentially twiddling as thumbs when it came to, you know, investigating Trump and the highest people while the JAN-6 committee was literally interviewing thousands and thousands of people and looking at thousands of records and emails and text messages and videos and putting together this painstaking evidence to show that a crime was committed.

Great, they've done an amazing job, and I'm sure the report that they're gonna release will be a roadmap on how to do it. But now give it all over to Jack Smith, who is a real prosecutor, and who is moving very quickly in these investigations. Hand them everything you have, because as you said, otherwise, what's gonna happen

when the Republicans take over? They they're going to investigate the investigation and they're going to who knows what they're going to do you know big bonfire big bonfire of the vanities burning all of the thousands of transcripts. But turn it over. Yeah I could go on with you especially the midweek show with you I could go on forever but unfortunately that's that help podcasting works. We've got a wrap up. I know. I had left for a meeting and let Ben come in and then I thought, well, they're over now. And I went back. I was like, this is like a mini

series. This is continuing to go. But you know what? Legal a f is a mini series. It's a mini series for justice. It's a mini series for long politics. It's not going to end. We're not going to be canceled. You're not going to end. We're not going to be canceled. You're not going to lose. Hopefully, one of your favorite podcasts, we're going to be around for a long, long time reporting and getting better and better because of the encouragement of our listeners and followers, like the Midas mighty,

like the Legal A-Effers. But we've reached the end of the midweek edition of Legal A-F with Karen Friedman, Ignifalo and Michael Popak, covering for you what we believe in our own curating are the most consequential stories of law and politics at the midweek and we'll be back next week with a couple of more sponsors and Karen Friedman, Nick Nifalo and this Saturday we will be,

I'll be anchoring with Ben Mycelas who is the master of the hot take who does five and seven a day. You've been doing the fun too. You've been doing some really good ones lately. You know, I feel like I got to like pull my weight with Ben. I feel like, you know, I feel, you know, and he looks drained on some of them like, oh my god, he's looks fatigued. I'm going to have to jump in and do a few. And I'll tell you where I will recommend people on the way out of this show tonight. If you want a really full, full sum explanation, more than we were able to do on this show of the Trump Organization conviction, go find on YouTube, not hard to find. It's right in the Midas touch channel under a trending take and under legal AF actually go find the video of us on YouTube with Michael Cohen and the three of us talking about the ramifications of the

conviction of the Trump organization. And if in a YouTube is at your thing, then go on the pod. Any place you can pull the legal AF podcast, Google and Spotify, pull the pod there. We have a special bonus edition that's sitting there. And it helps with the algorithms. It helps move us up into the top 100 of news globally, which is an amazing place for us to occupy. It's all because of you, all because of the might of smiting the legal a efforts. And then finally, how else can you support the show besides listening, besides tweeting to us and having us tweet back and participating in live chat like tonight is to go on to store.

Midas.com and go on and get things that relate to your passion for legal AF. We have long sleeve shirts with wheels of justice. We have coffee mug somebody posted on Twitter recently, a little champagne toast to Ben, Karen, me and justice in response to Trump organization being convicted and they did it with a legal AF mug. And a lot of people said, I want one, where are they? Where'd you get them from? And you can get them from the Midas store. They're sitting right there. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna develop with Karen in 2023,

some more merchandise. I think we need to refresh our store a little bit. Yeah, we need some more merch. We, especially, we need some, I think we need something a little more with a woman's influence. Merch. I agree, I agree with you. I'm glad you said that. I'm going to push hard to try to get shirts that are cut for women and not just for men.

I know that's been a problem. I've heard, your complaints have been heard. I'm taking it up with the head office. I'm just trying to work on it. And to try to improve our fashion sense related to that, our comfort sense related to that. Thank you to our sponsors today, Pompus and Masterworks in Karen.

If I don't see you before with some other breaking news, which could happen. I know, right? I'll see you next week or before. I'll see you next Wednesday. Thanks everybody. Shout out to the Midas mighty.