Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Legal AF Full Episode 2/19/2025

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Michael Popok and Karen Friedman Agnifilo are back on the top-rated Legal AF podcast and debating: 1) if Federal Prosecutors can protect our democracy and rule of law from Trump's abuse of power; 2) where American Values are in the Trump approach to attack our allies like President Zelensky; 3) new rulings against the Trump Administration and whether Judge Chutkan will finally ban Musk from power; 4) what Judge Ho will do about the corrupt deal to dismiss the charges against NY Mayor Adams; and so much more at the intersection of law and politics. Support Our Sponsors: Mack Weldon: Go to http://mackweldon.com/?utm_source=streaming&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcastlaunch&utm_content=LEGALAFutm_term=LEGALAF and get 20% off your first order with promo code LEGALAF Beam: Get up to 40% off for a limited time when you go to https://shopbeam.com/LEGALAF and use code LEGALAF at checkout! VIIA: Try VIIA Hemp! https://viia.co/legalaf and use code LEGALAF! Naked Wines: Join the Naked Wines community and head to https://NakedWines.com/legalaf for 6 bottles of wine for JUST $39.99 with shipping included Miracle Made: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://TryMiracle.com/LEGALAF and use the code LEGALAF to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Direct Investing. It's Wednesday, so it must be the midweek edition of Legal AF. When we came up with midweek edition, Karen and me, remember four years ago, we were like, I wonder if there's gonna be enough to talk about that we need two shows. I wonder what we'll do on a Wednesday when we get together.

Holy schmigoli, that's a legal term. We got a lot to talk about, just like today. We could have an everyday legal AF with this administration for the next four years. But we're curated for you because, you know, we don't want you drinking out of a fire hose on our watch. We'll drink out of the fire hose and then we'll tell you what's really, really important here

on the Midas Touch Network. And so we're going to take advantage of the fact that one of my co-anchors is a leading former prosecutor. So we're going to talk about the prosecutors on the federal side who have done noisy resignations, encouraged profiles, encouraged and former DOJ officials, including Jack Smith, who have issued an open letter of support to those within the Department of Justice, both Maine Justice in Washington and in the various US Attorney's offices, to stand their ground, to continue to uphold their oath, to don't do things that are unjust or violate

the federal principles of prosecution. And it means something when a Jack Smith and hundreds of other people, including like Harry Lipman, come out and sign this letter with bold print. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about with Karen things like Wendy Chung resigning as the criminal head of the US Attorney's Office in DC after Ed Miller is appointed and things that Emile Bové who is now, I have a new name for him, Emile Bové the former criminal defense lawyer for Donald Trump who's effectively acting, there he is, the deputy, well even the

photo says it, he's the angel of death. He's just, they just trot him out. He's not even the really the number two lawyer of the Department of Justice. He's the angel of death. He's just, they just trot him out. He's not even the really the number two lawyer of the Department of Justice. He's the acting number two until his boss, Todd Blanch, finishes confirmation process and then he'll take over. That number two position is always referred to as the enforcer or the bad cop. The FBI reports directly to that person

and it's Emil Bove who's sending letters from DC, the perch in DC to US attorneys, line prosecutors, and ordering them to start investigations and panel grand juries, dismiss cases that don't deserve to be dismissed, quite the opposite, in a very unholy, unethical way. We want to dive into Mill Boves and people like former interim US attorney Sassoon, Danielle Sassoon and her profile

in Courage. And if you would have told me at the top of the year or in November that I would be doing a profile in Courage comment about Danielle Sassoon who's the rightest of right wing, a Scalia clerk who was a rock star, a shooting star through the office, who could have been the US attorney. I'd be like, are you out of your mind? But she's standing up for herself and for justice. And we'll talk about that along with the people

in the DC US attorney's office, who equally are not gonna start a criminal prosecution against Joe Biden and other people in the clean energy space because Emile Boves told her to. And as long as we're on the rule of law and democracy, I never thought I would have to say that a president of the United States, and I'm emphasizing all of those words for a reason, is a sympathizer with Russia. I never thought I would have to say that.

And not even in secret, it's not even like a Manchurian candidate. We have Donald Trump right now, who's turned the world upside down and is attacking a democratic ally of ours, Zelensky, calling him a failed comedian, whose poll ratings are in the dumpster, and who should give up any thought of being in NATO

or and give back and trying to obtain back all the land grab that Putin did, making Zelensky out to be the dictator who attacked Putin, not the other way around, as Putin rubs his hands in glee, because he's already won. You don't emasculate and cut the legs out and the you know what out from under a democratically a

democratic leader in our world in negotiations with our arch enemy Russia. And why is that happening? Because Russia dangled a giant pork chop of business deals in front of Donald Trump. He said, deals? You had me at deals. Let's do it. Let's let American business and let's open up Russia. Let's forget about their efforts to destroy democracy and to use Donald Trump as their henchmen and as their pawn to do it.

So we have to take a detour here and talk about that international global issue. We got a new ruling, a number of new rulings, as we went on the air. A new temporary restraining order by Judge Kataris about Donald Trump trying to decapitate the heads of various different independent or other entities, agencies, council, and the like. And right now the judges are holding the ring and holding the firewall to stop our democracy from immolating before our very eyes. I mean, I don't mean to make,

like, Bopak, that's hyperbolic. It's not, it's not. Congress does not only do nothing, right? It's a wet noodle. So now we've only got one branch of government to help protect us. Fortunately, we got Legal AF to talk about it. Then we got to talk about all things Doge and Elon Musk, right, Karen? And the fact that he's co-president, remember he gives joint interviews, he gives joint

press statements, joint, you know, all that. And yet they say he's not in Doge, that he's just an advisor that happens to have some influence over Donald Trump. That's all. Nobody believes that, including federal judges. I want to talk about Judge Chuckin's particular ruling, and we'll have a little breakout session to talk about why, even though you don't get a temporary restraining order

if you're a state, you may still win the war and get Elon Musk barred from government, which is the ultimate goal there. And then lastly, we'll bring it close to home for Karen right now. And we'll talk about Mayor Adams and the unholy deal that he struck to try to save his career and what it's doing to the credibility, if I can even use that word any longer, of the Trump Department of Justice. Karen.

Hello, how are you, Popak? I noticed a new background with, I saw some boxes in one of your hot takes. Yeah, here. Yeah, there you go. Some boxes, yeah, the Popak family relocated. Yeah, amazing, well, congrats to you. Thank you very much, appreciate that.

In fact, I just located some new office space today, so you. Thank you very much appreciate that in fact I just located some new office space today so I'm very very happy about that. Well we miss you here in New York. Yeah well I'll be back regularly you know I still have an office up there and you and I'll work together I'm sure on some amazing things both inside and outside of the law and how are you in your in your in your family? I saw your daughter joined your law practice. Yeah, exactly. It's been great. You know, she was, my daughter was a paralegal at the Manhattan DA's office for many years, and then she was a paralegal at a not-for-profit,

and I was in the market for a paralegal, and I thought, who better than my daughter, Sophia, to join our law practice? And I trust her implicitly, and she's brilliant, and so I'm really excited to be working with her. Yeah Yeah, it's it's you know, my day job. This is this is what I do on the side to because I feel helpless I feel like I can't believe what's going on around us I can't believe the world is just changing so dramatically and This is the gaslight, this is the gaslighting of all of us,

this entire administration. You know, I was thinking I should start a TikTok or some kind of a little special show or episode on the daily kind of, or maybe like some kind of, you know, sub stack or something, like what is our daily, what is our daily gaslighting from this administration? Cause that's what they do. They literally come out and they either dodge questions

or they accuse you of the very thing that they're doing or they lie. And it's just shocking to me, right? It's total gaslighting to be able to say things like they do. Like one of my favorites recently was Donald Trump saying, Elon Musk, there's no conflict of interest. There's no conflict of interest

with him going into all these agencies. And the only possible one would be space. So he's staying away from anything involving space. Well, first of all, he's not. He's going into the Defense Department and the Pentagon. All of that has to do with space. And by the way, he is either being regulated by, overseen by, or has contracts with so many of the agencies

that he has his fingers in the pie. So there's lots of conflicts, but they just say that there isn't. And it's just so gaslighting to say it like that. Or when they ask questions about what we're going to talk about, when they asked Donald Trump that there was a British reporter that asked him about Danielle Sassoon, the interim US attorney for the Southern District of New York, resigning.

Oh, I don't really know about that, him or her. They just pretend like, it's just they just pretend they don't know Pam Bondi does it too. They all do it when it's something that's, that's messy or they don't like they pretend they don't know about it. Or like Project 2025 is another example, right? How many times on the campaign trail did Donald Trump say that, say that he doesn't, I haven't read it, I don't know anything about it, and pretends he doesn't know anything about it. Well, he installs the head of, the architect of Project 2025 as one of his closest advisors. And PS, there's a tracker showing all of the things that Project 2025 has already accomplished, and we're only three weeks in,

because they're just check, check, check, check. So it is the gaslighting administration. They say they're not doing things, but they are. And then people who don't dive in and dive deep the way we do believe it. And so we have to tell people the the truth. And I'm so tired of people calling it misinformation or disinformation. They're outright lies. That's what they are. These are lies. And they are intended to make you question yourself. They're intended to make you question, maybe I don't know everything, maybe I don't see it right, maybe he's telling the truth.

They are just bulldozing us all and we have to stand up to it and we have to keep bringing people the truth and the facts. And I'm just so grateful that people come every week and listen to, and some people every day, some people multiple times a day to whether it's Midas Touch or the Legal AF channel and they watch our shows and our hot takes and they are staying up

to date because we have to stay informed it is not okay what's going on. Yeah and I appreciate that but I have good news for you though Karen I decided coming onto the show today and I have this power I don't know people you You don't probably don't realize it I'm going to coronate you and anoint you Queen Karen I'm gonna make myself King Michael and for now on it's gonna be referred to as the Gulf of legal AF And if people don't want to refer to it that way, I'm going to take proper steps to put them in jail I mean we just I mean he's just he's just batshit crazy. I mean, we just, I mean, he's just, he's just bat shit crazy. I mean, there's no other legal term I can use for this. You know, he puts up this thing today that says

he's the king of New York or the king of, I don't know what he is, because he's gonna get rid of congestion, congestion tolls in New York that was up for three weeks. And now New York will be a much better place. Like, are you, first of all, you and I have been in New York for a long time. I was there and you were there during COVID, during the protests, during all the issues. We saw it rebound and come back. Congestion tolls were only around for about three weeks. It's not impacting tourism, it's not impacting Ubers.

It's not impacting anything. It's just one of these, like, we're not gonna tax your tips. Yeah, well that's because servers don't make enough money likely to even have their tips taxed anyway. It's again, it's just this phony populism while he steals directly, you know, he gives you the cash register while he and his crew are busy looting the vault. That's what it is. The American people get the cash register. Oh, dollars and pennies and nickels, or maybe not even that,

while he's in the back with a gold bullion, along with all right, going out the back door. Yeah, and he tries to get away with it with this bread and circus. You know, here, here's a, oh, IVF, you know? And my wife and I tried IVF, that's not how we got our daughter, but we are big supporters of IVF

Oh executive order on IVF. That'll make everybody happy Oh at the same time I signed another executive order that says that I alone with Pam Bondi interpret all of the law and You know, he's setting himself up for his opinion on the law and what it says is equal to the opinion of the judicial branch. Right? And I don't know if you caught this today, Karen, new executive order that he just signed is going to basically immobilize and paralyze the entire administrative state. Because every administrative state, every agency, department of their government, now has to go, I'm not making this up, to Pam Bondi and Donald Trump to ask them what the proper interpretation of a rule or regulation

is and the position they should take in court. Now some people might be thinking, that's impossible. How could a president or Pam Bondi answer hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of agencies and departments and things and give them those kind of answers. And the answer is they can't and they won't. And that'll lead to a complete, a complete defanging or taking the power pack off the back of all these agencies and departments. Because they don't want them to operate. They don't want Social Security, Internal Revenue Service, veterans affairs, education department, they don't want them to operate. And all of it, all the harm does not fall equally along the blue and red states, frankly. It falls all on the red states, the very voters who put him in. I want to turn and talk

about prosecutors because you not only have lifetime as a prosecutor, I've always been against prosecutors, you have a lifetime of being a prosecutor and working with federal prosecutors, including many, many here. And we're going to talk about two stories today that directly dovetail with you, including the people that you know in the mayor's office and all of that. Let's start with the feds and the prosecutors. And I'm gonna set you up this way. You've got Danielle Sassoon, okay,

the acting interim and her resignation because of Amiel Boves and the deal with Adams. You've got Wendy Chung, I think Chung, Chung, in DC, criminal division head, and her refusal to start a criminal investigation at a meal buffet in Donald Trump's behest to go after Joe Biden. And the same 24-hour period,

you got Jack Smith and hundreds of other federal prosecutors doing an unprecedented thing, writing an open letter to the people, their colleagues, telling them to hold the line. Why don't you tie it all together at the appropriate point, I'll read from the people, their colleagues, telling them to hold the line. Why don't you tie it all together at the appropriate point? I'll read from the letter, okay? Sure. By the way, when you were talking about,

when you were talking about Emile Beauvais and Salty put up a picture of him, I was like, God, he looks so much like Lurch from the Addams family. You rang. like, God, he looks so much like Lurch from the Addams family. I, Salty, you have to look at Salty. You have to find a picture, come side by side and you'll see what I mean. I'm telling you, he looks like Lurch from the Addams family and he's, he's acting just like,

he's wearing this job on his, on his face. I mean, he, you should see from where, what do you look like three, four years ago? We were introduced to him as a criminal defense lawyer from Donald Trump until now. Oh my God. He's, he looks like the soul is being sucked out of him. It is. It is. So talk about the prosecutors. Yeah. Yeah. Look, look, you know, we've been doing this show now four years and I've always been

the former prosecutor because that's what I did my whole career. I spent almost 30 years as a prosecutor at the Manhattan DA's office. And that's my first job out of law school. And that's when I did my whole career. And for the last four years, while we've been doing this show, every time we talk about prosecutors, and we talk about all the cases against Donald Trump, and whether it's Jack Smith, who I used to work with back in the day at the Manhattan DA's office, or any of the other federal prosecutors or the state prosecutors who prosecuted Donald Trump. I always, I see the eyes rolling, the virtual eyes rolling when I use the following phrase, when I say that prosecutors really do, they're true believers and they really do follow the facts wherever they lead. They're not political. They implement their discretion without fear or favor.

And that's a phrase that we all use. And people get sick of hearing it because it does sound a little like overused, but it's being a prosecutor in so many ways for so many people. It's not what you do, it's who you are. It's your worldview. Your word means everything. your ethics mean everything.

It's all about doing the right thing always. And that's just, it becomes so much of who you are and how you conduct yourself. And you have that responsibility because as much as it's an adversarial system, as a prosecutor, you have to also uphold a defendant's rights. You have to care about the system as a whole. It's not just about winning or winning at all costs.

In fact, it's the opposite of that. It's about justice and what justice means and about doing the right thing without fear or favor. And that's just something that it's ingrained in you, ingrained in you, ingrained in you, and it's who you are. And then obviously people who believe in that are self-selecting and they go there and they become that even more. They're trained to be that

way. There's only one thing that can get you fired as a prosecutor, at least when I knew what prosecutors were like. And there's only one thing you can do to get you fired and that's to lie, because it's all about telling the truth and your ethics and doing the right thing. People make mistakes, et cetera, but you do something wrong or corrupt, that's when you're done, you're out. And that means something. And it means something, it has nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with being a Democrat

or being a Republican. You're going to prosecute people who you agree with what they believe in and what they say and what they do and ones that you disagree with. And it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. It's all about justice and what happened, et cetera, and following the facts and implement and applying the law.

And that's what being a prosecutor truly, truly, truly is. And that is what we have seen in living color here with all of the prosecutors that are resigning in mass and taking a very public stand and leaking their letters of resignation, et cetera, so that the world sees what's going on. This is not about being a Democrat or being a Republican or being politically motivated.

Danielle Sassoon was a 38-year-old rising star in the Republican Party. She was Ivy League, she clerked for Justice Scalia, and she was absolutely, she was a Federalist Society member. She was the darling of the Republicans, so much so that, and she was brilliant and well respected at the US Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York.

And she was chosen as the acting US Attorney for the Southern District while Jay Clayton gets nominated and confirmed by the Senate as the US attorney who's the official nominee of Donald Trump. So she was there and she was there not very long when Emile Beauvais orders her to dismiss the case, the corruption case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. And the reasons that were given were stated explicitly. It was for political reasons. It had nothing to do with the substance of the case.

It had nothing to do with whether the case was provable, whether there was the strength of the case. There are people who thought the case wasn't very strong, frankly. And there are people who thought that the case had potential weaknesses in it. Because corruption cases are very, very hard to prove, especially since courts have walked back the definitions of bribery and what a quid pro quo in a public official setting actually means. And so some people thought that the case wasn't the strongest case, but the prosecutors felt they could prove it beyond

a reasonable doubt. And the reasons that were given were for political reasons. Basically, essentially saying what Emil Beauvais told Daniel Sassoon, in no uncertain terms that is interferes with hit with Mayor Adams ability to implement Trump's agenda period full stop. And that's the reason she took notes during the meeting, her notes and others notes were confiscated at the end of the meeting, which is unheard of. I've never heard of such a thing. And she was ordered to do it. And she wrote a scathing, scathing letter of resignation,

where she set out her reasons why, and it was because she was asked to do the opposite of what I just described for a very long time what a prosecutor is, and about being ethical and about following the facts wherever they lead without fear or favor. And this is infusing and injecting politics into justice, a place that does not exist. And she put in her letter that, in fact, they were going to supersede the indictment. They had more instances of crimes. She herself reviewed the case and felt

they could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. And this wasn't substantive. And you know what Emil Boves said in that meeting and then put in writing? He said, this is basically like we did to get Brittany Greimer home, like Joe Biden did with Brittany Greimer when she was being held by Russia.

And we sent Victor Boot, the merchant of death. He's this known killer, assassin, Russian assassin that was incarcerated. And he says, says look sometimes we do things like that Sometimes we make deals with the devil to for politics and he equated it with Victor Boop he literally then put it in his letter to Danielle Sassoon explaining the reasons why he did this and And you know just kept digging in that, look, we have complete discretion.

We can do whatever we want. And this is what we're doing and this is why we're doing it. Didn't even try to say that it was about the weaknesses of the case, et cetera. He then, after she resigned, he then took the entire, he transferred the case to Washington, and he had the entire public integrity section come into a room. I think there was 30 people. People were furiously texting from that room, not to me, but to other friends of mine that are former prosecutors basically saying, this is what's happening right now in real time.

Help. Get this out far and wide. We are being told that if someone doesn't sign this letter to dismiss this, this case is going to be dismissed. And so, and finally someone stepped up, they said they would sign the letter to prevent their entire group of 30 colleagues from getting fired. But others resigned. And I think something like seven or eight prosecutors have resigned.

And interestingly, today in court, and I know we're gonna talk about this later, today was a hearing in court on the Mayor Adams case and to dismiss that case. The only one who showed up was Emile Beauvais. No one else came. No one else was willing to do this. And the reasons people are giving for resignation one who showed up was Emile Bové. No one else came. No one else was willing to do this. And,

and, you know, the, the, the, the reasons people are giving for resignation is because they are being asked to do things. They are being weaponized, frankly. And, and that's who the, the, um, the U S the, the head of the criminal division in Washington, D C was asked by Ed Martin, who's going to be the, the U S attorney down there. Ms. Chong was basically asked to investigate, open up investigations into political rivals. And she said, no, I'm not doing it. And so she resigned. And she also has a great reputation. So you were losing career prosecutors.

And interestingly, there's a letter, this open letter that you referred to that you're gonna read from, it's a great letter. And it basically is to write to all the prosecutors who are still there because they believe in what they do, basically saying, we see you, we support you, stand strong. But I think you should read from the letter. Really probably.

Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, that's a good perspective. All the people that are resigning. Danielle Sassoon, she was about to re-indict Mayor Adams, not dismiss the case. She asked for permission from Maine Justice, meaning Emile Beauvais and Pam Bondi, to bring new charges against him for lying to the FBI and for destroying evidence. Pretty serious charges.

They said, no, no, no, we won't let you supersede the indictment because we're going to get rid of it. And we're going to say the quiet power out loud. We're going to actually, these idiots actually said, we're going to just mention the quid pro quo. We're going to talk about it because we think we're allowed to do it as opposed to just saying we've made a policy decision that we're going to dismiss the indictment. Now Judge Ho, Dale Ho, is the worst draw for Trump to have pulled in New York. I don't think there would be many that would be very good for him. But Dale Ho, who just got appointed by and confirmed through Joe Biden, who had been the head of voting rights litigation for the ACLU and also worked for the NAACP,

he had a hearing today. I wanna talk more about what I think may happen off of that hearing, because I'm not sure we're in the world of, well, okay, Milbovay wants me to dismiss the indictment Sounds good to me. That's all I can do as a judge I'm not sure that's all he can do as a judge and he's taking his time to think about it We'll do what happened in Dale Ho's courtroom today And I'll read from the letter the open letter powerful open letter only a couple of pages long, but very very important to our democracy

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Voucher and put in my code legal AF for both the code and password for six bottles of wine for just $39.99 with shipping included. That's $100 off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com legal AF and use the code and password legal AF for six bottles of wine for $39.99. Welcome back. All right. We've been talking about what's going on in the prosecutors who are fighting back and are protecting our democracy and our rule of law. We've lost the rule of law. We've lost the rule. We've lost the law. And Amil Bové, whose claim to fame, I never heard of the guy before, but his claim to fame was he was the number two criminal defense lawyer to Todd Blanch

and got Donald Trump off the hook once he got elected. I guess that's his claim to fame. But now he's out for vengeance and ordering prosecutors around and former prosecutors, including Jack Smith don't like it one bit. Here's an open letter they sent to let the people within the Department of Justice know

that they've got friends and they've got their back and they need to hold the line. Open letter to career federal prosecutors dated February 17th. Like you, each of us devoted years of our professional lives to pursuing justice on behalf of the American people. Although we dutifully carried out the law enforcement priorities of the executive branch, irrespective of who headed it, the oath we swore was to the Constitution, not to the president,

attorney general, or any other individual. Our obligations didn't stop at the oath we took to support and defend the Constitution. They included upholding a set of values that have guided the United States Department of Justice for decades. These values are ingrained in the department's DNA as exemplified by the principles of federal prosecution, which were written to ensure that federal prosecutors exercise their tremendous power fairly

without regard to partisan politics and in furtherance of the rule of law. As prosecutors, the letter continues, we were rightly prohibited regard to partisan politics and in furtherance of the rule of law. As prosecutors, the letter continues, we were rightly prohibited from making criminal charging decisions based on someone's political association, activities or beliefs, or because of our personal feelings about them. We knew it was impermissible to treat a defendant more leniently just because they were powerful or well connected, or more harshly because they were not. Skipping ahead a bit, we knew these values were more than just

requirements in a manual. They were foundational to a fair and just legal system. We upheld them no matter who was president. Against this backdrop, we have watched with alarm as these values have been tested by recent actions of the department's leadership. That's Donald Trump acting as his own head of the Department of Justice. That's Pam Bondi. That's Emil Beauvais. Some of you have been ordered to make charging decisions based expressly on considerations other than the facts and the law. That's the last two people we just spent a considerable amount of time talking about, including to serve solely political purposes. Some of you have been forced to consider

whether your actions will result in the elimination of the public integrity section created in the wake of the Watergate scandal and whose vital work is intended to protect the public from public corruption. Several of you have resigned and others are wondering what will happen to the department we served and revere.

Now this next section is an all bold. To all of you, we communicate this. We salute and admire the courage many of you have already exhibited and that will guide all of you as you continue to serve the interests of justice. You have responded to ethical challenges of a type no public servant should ever be forced

to confront with principle and conviction in the finest traditions of the Department of Justice." And they go on to say, and we support you in that endeavor, and this is now, we'll just, we'll scroll it for the show. This is alphabetical, you know, including people that are associated with our show like Harry Lipman, and of course when you get down to the S's, I mean this is really alphabetical, this goes on four pages, I'm gonna ask Karen a minute which people out here she actually has worked with and knows, I'm sure there's a batch, I've been against a couple of them, but now we're all just patriots doing our job and then we're getting into the S's here quickly and eventually we will see Jack Smith, Assistant U.S. Attorney Eastern District

of New York, Chief Public Integrity Section, First Assistant U.S. Attorney, Acting U.S. Attorney, Middle District of Tennessee, Special Counsel, Department of Justice. Powerful. Karen, what, first of all, I'm assuming you know a number of these people, right? Yeah, there's a there's a few I knew in there, first of all, I'm assuming you know a number of these people, right? Yeah, there's a few I knew in there, not a ton, believe it or not. I recognized a bunch of names, but I was a state prosecutor, not a federal prosecutor. These are people from all over the country. And it was just interesting to see, you know, I looked to see if my husband was there, because he was a former federal prosecutor. I don't think he was, I don't think he wasn't there. And I know he wasn't asked, or if he was,

he's on trial right now, so he probably missed it. But there's a number of former federal prosecutors who aren't there, not because they don't believe in it, but I just don't know. I think they got this out quickly. But the fact that they got over 90 federal prosecutors in there, it was great. I thought it was great.

And I thought it was really an important thing to do. It's gonna be hard for a lot of people in the Department of Justice to just not know what to do. Are they gonna be asked, do people love their job? There's nothing more satisfying than feeling like you are helping somebody and that you are doing the right thing and you wear the right the white hat etc. There's a lot of people who love their job and want to

keep doing their job and most of the time it doesn't matter who the president is they have nothing to do with the president they have nothing to do with crime. Crime is what it is right you either commit one or you don't. There's no like there's no reason why you should have anything to do with the president or political considerations or policies. So most of the time it really has no impact. I do remember when my husband was a federal prosecutor,

I do remember he sometimes did clash with the with John Ashcroft because they because of the death penalty and they wanted to seek the death penalty more often than than my husband did who Didn't want to and I know that sometimes created created certain clashes internally But but that was just you know, do you seek the death penalty or do you not on certain cases? It wasn't do you prosecute or not? But other than that, I've never heard of anything remotely like this and this is truly an

existential crisis for the Department of Justice, which has long been considered the crown jewel frankly of the federal government. It's the thing that crown jewel, frankly, of the federal government. It's the thing that that and the FBI, that's also going to considerably change at the helm if Cash Patel gets confirmed. I just don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know what they're going to, they're gonna become essentially immigration enforcers.

And it's gonna be like immigration court, I think. I don't know what else they're gonna be doing. and it's going to be like immigration court, I think. I don't know what else they're going to be doing. We'll talk more about it. The unitary president theory that all power resides in the executive branch with the president is the reason he's trying to lop off the heads of all the quote unquote independent agencies

and bring it all under him. He says that's the way we make it more accountable. Because I was elected president. You were elected president but you weren't elected dictator to rule by fiat and we like it. Americans generally like independence when it comes to things like our Department of Justice and our FBI. We're not going to have that. I've heard people say within the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025 that are now in the Trump administration, that the Department of Justice are the president's lawyers, not independent, not the White House counsel,

which has always been the president's lawyers, but the Department of Justice, that he is effectively the top law enforcement officer in the constitution because he's the apex officer. And everybody reports to him, they're all meat puppets. I mean, Pan Pony is not really the attorney general. You know, it's really Donald Trump's fevered imagination put into words indeed by somebody like Stephen Miller and Elon Musk and these are the people that take marching orders. These are the bootlickers that take marching orders and what we're going to see,

that take marching orders. And what we're going to see, we've already started to see it, is that Washington main justice is going to tell U.S. attorneys that are handpicked by Donald Trump, because they've now all, as they usually do, at the top of an administration, all the U.S. attorneys have resigned or will resign. And if they don't resign, they're going to be replaced and fired. When he gets those little puppets into those US Attorney's Office in every federal district, they're all going to be controlled by the puppet master, which is Donald Trump through Pam Bondi through Todd Blanch through Emil Bové. And DC is going to tell the local Eastern District of Washington US Attorney what to do and how to jump, who to, how high to jump, you know,

when to jump and how high. And we've never seen that before for good reason. You know, you, you, you know, you can say a lot of things and we have about, you know, our last Merrick Garland, our last attorney general, but corrupt and, and, and partisan and using that position to force his brand of justice district by district is not one of them. We have a lot of things we can say about him. I'm not saying that was an ideal model either, but we can just give up on what came out of the Nixon era, the last criminal president that we had, which is we thought it was a good thing to have an independent FBI. It was a good thing to have an independent Department of Justice. Forget it. It's over. At least for the next two to four years, it's over. And everything, and this actually reinforces something you've said a lot on the show, Karen,

which is let them get complete control of all the levers of power. Then you know who to blame. And there can be no deniability about it when people say, this is not the America that I wanted to wake up in after the election. What's been lacking so far is any recognition of what we used to call an American values. Those have been completely removed from the equation what we used to call an American values, those have been completely removed from the equation. And all we're watching is a naked power grab

by Donald Trump and those in his inner circle who have been chomping at the bit to destroy the administrative state, to destroy the social safety net in America and put all the money back where they think it belongs, which is to rob from the poor and give to the rich in a reverse Robin Hood. And they finally got their guy who has been motivated by his own criminal cases and the immunity decision to do it. We've always heard about, oh, the unitary president, they're doing it in real time before our very eyes.

And so- And he's not even hiding it. I mean, just him posting a picture of himself dressed as a king. Right. He's- With a crown. Yeah, with a crown, exactly. He is, he's literally trolling us, frankly.

Right. You know, he's like, he's not hiding it. And so let's switch gears and leave the country for a minute. Go, go on the global stage and talk about what he's what he is doing to democracy and the brand of democracy around the world. You've got, before you even get to Zelinsky, you've got Pete Hegseth, who is, who wasn't, wasn't even qualified for the weekday edition of Fox and Friends. He was only qualified for the weekend edition and to watch the ball drop on New Year's. And now he heads our Pentagon. And he goes around with Jack Presobiak. He's the guy that invented Pizzagate, the Democrats are eating babies and running a pedophile ring at a pizza parlors led by Hillary Clinton. I'm not making this up guys. I know you think what is the Pol Pot taking to edible sponsor? What happened here? That's he is embedded with the Trump administration and stand shoulder to shoulder with the

Secretary of the Treasury and with the Secretary of Defense during key meetings about Ukraine. Jack Psobiak. That guy should be in a mental hospital. He's helping to run the messaging for the Trump administration. So you've got JD Vance last week who stands in Munich of all places and chastises and lambasts our own democratic allies around the world because they are not part of the Trump brand of democracy whatever that's supposed to be and it was such an amazing speech that Russian TV celebrated it they said exactly when Russia TV celebrates your speech and you're the US vice president you might

have done something wrong from an American values standpoint that are completely absent from this administration. And that was a way to try to soften, they've been trying to do body blows to Zelensky to soften him up so that he agrees to a deal with Russia who Donald Trump wants to do deals with and make money with. So Zelensky, who by the way, just to be clear, is more popular in his country than Trump is in our country. Donald Trump's approval rating is right now at the lowest in the first month of a presidency ever. Lower than Biden, lower than everybody by about 10 points. Zelensky is approved by 57% or 58% of his country.'s after a you know a multi-year war

Where they've been clobbered and for him to say Zelinsky is a failed mediocre comedian Dictator who basically asked for it asked to have his country taken over by Russia because Russia Because they attacked Russia first is Propaganda right out of the Russian playbook. It's what Tucker Carlson says every night, it's what Carrie Lake says every night, it's what Jack Pesopiak says every day, turning the world upside down. Ukraine was attacked by Russia. They are a democratic ally of ours and they, even if they're not a NATO, they demanded our protection.

And Congress, including Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State before he became Secretary of State, was fully in support of it. Now they make Zelensky out to be the bad guy, try to cut his legs out from under him before they negotiate the deal without him. It's gonna be a deal cut by Donald Trump and Putin, and we're gonna leave Ukraine out? Ukraine no longer

trust, the people of Ukraine no longer trust the American people. And that's a sad commentary at this moment, because Donald Trump has so sullied the American brand of democracy around the world, as we said he would, in the first month. What are you making of what they're doing to Zelensky on the way into his negotiations. If that's what shoving something down somebody's throat is now called, what's your take on it, Karen? I mean, look, we knew this was gonna happen when Tulsi Gabbard was his nominee, right? Like he loves Russia. He's always loved Russia.

He thinks Vladimir Putin, like I think he has a crush on him or something. I don't know what it is, but he's always really looked up to him as a tough guy, I guess. And so it's just no surprise. But it's really, I have to say it's really upsetting and sad what they're doing. I mean, look, we have watched, I mean, we have watched what has happened in the Ukraine since Russia invaded. And that has just been horrendous. And people have been displaced. There are all, the Ukrainians have left,

but many have stayed and are fighting. People have died and we have sent money, we have sent ammunition, we have sent arms. We have been helping them because you're not allowed to just go and steal someone's country. That's just not allowed. And that's what Russia has been trying to do with Ukraine. And just the fact that it's, you know,

and so this is just yet another gaslighting lie, right? That Donald Trump, he first, he says, oh, well, we spent $350 billion giving it to Ukraine. Well, it turns out that's a lie. We gave, I think, 118 billion, still a lot of money, but at least be accurate, right? If you're going to say something, be accurate, but he is not. And saying that Ukraine started it.

They didn't start it. They didn't ask for this. This is something that Russia just in a land grab went to war against Ukraine trying to seize the country and wear them down. And people have lost their lives. People have been living in horrendous conditions and trying to live their lives. A lot of fear, a lot of just death and losing loved ones

and just what happens during war. And I can't imagine what it must feel like to Ukrainians now seeing that their biggest ally, people who had their back literally, has turned their back on them and is Essentially saying that Ukraine started this war they didn't saying that Somehow somehow they are to blame for this and that we are parroting Vladimir Putin's own words. It's just it's it's disgusting and and Europe is disheartened by this.

Europe was our biggest ally. I just don't understand why we're doing this, why this is happening and why more people aren't up in arms about this. Why the American people aren't just completely furious by this. How could we possibly try to become friends with and trade with the likes of...

You know, Russian people are wonderful, beautiful people. This has nothing to do with Russian people. This has to do with Vladimir Putin and his horrible, corrupt government, where they jail people for no reason, they torture them, and they kill people. And it's horrendous what they do. It's a complete dictator and it's the opposite of a democracy. And somehow this is who we are going to now support and go back to trading with and pretending like the Cold War never happened.

It's just this has got to be demoralizing for so, so many people, both inside this country, but mostly outside this country. And, you know, God help us because one of the reasons we're a superpower isn't because of us. It's because of our allies and who we have allied ourselves with. It's not, you can't do this alone. You can't do anything alone. And if you think that Russia, they're going to laugh, they are laughing. If you think no matter what we do no matter what he says rush Vladimir Putin has one person in one person One person's interest at heart and and that's himself any deal He makes with Donald Trump is as good as as the piece of paper that it's written on. It's it's worthless and meaningless and

So, you know what if God forbid something happens and we turned our back on our friends They're gonna turn out they're back on on on us and God help us. I think it's disgraceful what's happening and it's shameful That that's my that's my view of what's happening Yeah to answer your question. We know why it's happening because Donald Trump as you said as is I almost said something obscene he's in bed with Putin and he sees everything transactionally and commercially and they wanna make billions of dollars, not just for America, for the Trump family

by opening up the commerce with Russia. A commerce spigot that Biden and the rest of the free world shut off in order to punish Putin for his naked aggression and trying to take over Ukraine. Look, Donald Trump's doing the same thing to Congress. Donald Trump's doing the exact same thing to Congress that Putin did to Ukraine. He's stepping into a power vacuum,

he's grabbing as much turf as possible until somebody fights back and punches him in the nose. It's not gonna be this Congress. That's when people are like, how can he grab? How can he put out of existence independent executive branch agencies established by Congress by statute? Well, by tradition, he can't. But unless Congress fights back, they he'll keep trying, which leaves us back to the reason we have legal AF. Courts and public interest groups. I mean, as we're speaking, the NAACP, Lambda, other organizations, ACLU, the attorneys general of at least 22 states are filing cases two, three, and four at a clip. We're up to over 75 cases have already been filed against this administration

and we're in week four. You know, we're gonna hit my 3,000. We might surpass our 3,000. And this is this because he's gonna continue to pressure test and use a fire hose to do it until he is told no and grab as much power for himself and future presidents. See the problem here is it's not just about this president. Sure if we rebalance the checks and balance by giving the Democrats the House and the Senate and and and and if people like can't we impeach him sure there'd be articles of impeachment already drawn up for what he's doing in foreign policy for what he's doing against foreign policy, for what he's doing against

the transgender community, for what he's doing against women, what he's doing against immigration and and lopping off department heads. There would be dozens of articles of impeachment, but you got to have control of the other side of the balance, the House and the Senate. So that's what he's worried about. He knows he's a short-termer. He knows that if he can't convince the American people that he's doing everything in their best interest, forget about how much money he and his family have already made. The Trump family has made $200 million since he took office. I don't trade in magical thinking or hyperbole.

200 million dollars and the number is only going to, he's going to, like any kleptocracy, he's going to walk out of office a billion dollars richer in a transfer of wealth we have never seen before. So he looks at geopolitical issues, not in in consistent with American values and American diplomatic interest. He just looks at his own pocketbook in purse. I think it'd be great for Don Jr. and Eric to go develop an X, Y, and Z in Russia, right?

So let's bring them back into the world of civilized countries. They don't deserve to be brought back. And this is exactly what they wanted. Putin has already won. He's already won the fact that he got, he put his hand up Donald Trump's backside and got him to parrot the talking points of the Kremlin about who was the aggressor and who's the dictator.

He's won. The fact that they got rid of all of the anti-kleptocracy statutes and all of the anti, you know all they just they just got rid of it from the Department of Justice We're not going after yachts. We're not going after money of Oligarchs related to Putin any longer because we're trying to normalize and socialize him until when you know Who's scared shitless right now? Poland. Poland's on the other side of Ukraine saying, holy cow,

if that's how America is gonna operate, we better look somewhere else. We wanted them turned towards the West instead of turned towards China and Russia. But a lot of them were probably thinking, I thought we were the Democrats. I thought we were the democracies. So we're gonna talk about in our in our in our next segment here we're gonna talk about Judge Chutkin and

a ruling she made. I want to do a little explainer with Karen about temporary restraining orders and why it really doesn't matter to me whether they're gonna do a temporary restraining order whether they're gonna do a temporary restraining order or they're gonna do a preliminary injunction. I wanna get down to the meat and the substance of the case in a trial about whether Elon Musk is gonna be barred and banned from government because he wasn't properly appointed or confirmed.

So that's out there. And then we gotta get into this whole odyssey that's become the Mayor Adams scandal. You can touch on some things I know are near and dear to your heart, which is why isn't Governor Hokel taking us out in the back and taking us out of our misery by just getting rid of the guy? I'll debate you a little bit on that one. But the Justice Department has not only sullied its reputation, but it's circling the drain of credibility because of how Trump is allowing Emil Boves to order around what used to be, as you said, the crown jewel of the Justice Department, which is the Manhattan prosecutor's office, the Manhattan

Southern District of New York U.S. Attorney. We'll do all of that, but let's talk about ways that we can keep the shining light of the show going. It's the way that we've always talked about in the last five years. They're all free. Help Midas Touch Network, which just passed Joe Rogan. That's a testament. Yeah, that's a little bit to the content makers, but it's a testament to the group here, the audience, which is unique. I put our audience up against any in the internet, YouTube, anywhere. The solidarity of it, the

commitment of it, the affection of it, and the union of it. That's the reason we were able to turn the odometer on 4 million subscribers and beat Joe Rogan and legal AF is up there as well as a top Podcast because of you guys we're doing our part. Sure, you know We think thoughtfully about what we're gonna say, but gotta have you guys here to talk about it So you can do that. We got a new legal AF YouTube channel. It's not so new anymore We're just past five months. We're coming up on six months, we're gonna hit 500,000 subscribers. In that short amount of time, I curate that channel. Got some amazing contributors on there.

Dina Dahl is doing tireless and sometimes thankless work when I'm traveling, helping me over on Legal AF. She's doing unprecedented with me, she's doing lots of hot takes there. Court Accountability Action too, Shan Wu, we're gonna get Karen Freeman back when she stops being a trial lawyer. Coming over there as well. So come over there, hit that blue subscribe button. We got that going on. And then we've got legal AF the the the Patreon

account for some new and original content there as well. There we go. There we go. And that's it. We got pro-democracy sponsors and we're gonna hear from them now. How would you define your relationship with sleep? Are there challenges like trouble falling asleep or staying asleep? Would you say the quality of your sleep negatively impacts your life? Have you tried other sleep supplements but feel like nothing has worked? And here's the thing about sleep.

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We appreciate each and every one of you. Judge Chutkin, we remember her. I'll turn it over to you now. She presided over the criminal case against Donald Trump. She saw dozens and dozens of Jan 6 cases. And now as I joke, it's the revenge of the Jan 6 judges in DC. About half the cases that have been or will be filed are going to be filed in one courthouse. Just to make this clear. And no, it's not. To give context, it's not usual. Just like it wasn't usual to have

2,000 criminal defendants go through one courthouse with all those judges, it's it's not usual to have one court have so many of these cases at one time, but that's where we are. When you're suing a government, you're going to sue them where they live, and they live in DC. Sure, there's some other places we can sue them when there's injury or damage somewhere else that is advantageous to the freedom fighters, the protectors of our democracy, but a lot of them are going to be in DC. So we're going to be talking about Amy Berman Jackson. We're going to be talking about on this show, we're going to talk about Amy Berman Jackson and Tanya Chutkin and Amit Mehta and Rudy Contreras and a bunch of other judges. And who? Barrel Howell. And Barrel Howell.

And right, exactly. And Jeb Boasberg. I mean Jeff Boasberg. I mean it's the same people, it's the same people on all the Gen 6 cases. Donald Trump. Carl Nichols. Carl Nichols appointed by Trump who's you know let Bannon out. By the way speaking of Bannon and letting him out, who's given him permission to attack Elon Musk as an illegal immigrant who should be deported from the country. I know he's really going off on Musk. Somebody's mad he wasn't invited into the White House again. I know, I know. It doesn't seem to be sticking, just like the whole Laura Loomer with, who was Laura,

was Laura Loomer going after Marjorie Taylor Greene? Is that who it was? Yeah. Yeah. That seems to have died down too. I guess they don't let the infighting happen. No, and Bannon, the question is, what's going on with that build the wall case with Bannon?

There was a federal case. Is that gonna get dropped? I thought it wasn't, I thought they had a plea deal. Oh, yeah, they had a plea deal because now Trump's in charge of his Department of Justice. Yeah, no, but that was in the Manhattan DA's office. Oh, that wasn't federal? No, there was a Manhattan DA's office ban in case

Why did that happen that there was a plea deal that he pled guilty? I mean For no jail time. I think that you know, I have to I have to I'll google it while we're you look into it It was your old office. Okay, that makes that makes more sense. All right Well, let's talk about judge shutken So judge shutken gets one ofkin gets one of the many cases involving Elon Musk and Doge. And in particular, while there are at least two if not three injunctions, restraining orders, stopping Elon Musk from rooting around certain computer systems like the Treasury Department and Social Security, a bunch of

states got together, 14 of them led by New Mexico. And they filed a case in DC. They got assigned to Judge Chutkin, and they immediately asked for emergency relief about 13 different things. About Elon Musk can't be allowed to shut off federal and state contracts. He can't shut off funding.

He can't root around and look in in databases. And the judge, you know, we knew it last week, the judge was like, let's separate this for a moment, ladies and gentlemen. You've got the merits of your case as to whether Elon Musk was improperly put in charge of hiring and firing and getting rid of funding and putting agencies through a woodchip or his term, having not been properly appointed under the Constitution or confirmed by the Senate, nor really apparently holding any role, formal authority role in the Doge services or whatever that's supposed to be. And I'm gonna ultimately make a ruling based on evidence presented to me

about whether that is constitutional or not, or that has breached the separation of powers because we don't like to live in a country where somebody has unchecked power to do the things that he can who's not beholden to the American people, or to any oversight by Congress in any in the process. That is separate from whether you have what's called irreparable harm that and I can't give

you a prophylactic order about something that may happen in the future. You got to tell me what's happened to injure you right now. You need to have that for standing anyway and what is about to happen that you'll want me to stop. If you can cross that threshold, I'll give you your injunction. I might even give you a preliminary injunction, which is the next level up from temporary restraining order. But if you don't have that in my courtroom, I'm condensing three days of hearing. If you don't have that in my courtroom, then I'll see you at trial. I may give you a permanent injunction

where I don't have to worry about irreparable harm, but we can just talk about mandatory things that I will force the government to do or Donald Trump's organization administration to do. But I'm not gonna give you your injunction. Now she didn't give them the emergency injunction over the three day weekend. She held a Monday hearing in which she was like

very skeptical, not about the case, the substance of the case, what we call the merits of the case, but about the equitable relief that they were seeking and asking her to exercise her inherent authority. I'll just tell you straight, judges are loath to issue injunctions in most cases and you got to hit the mark on all four elements in order to get an injunction. In my cases, I've handled

hundreds of cases. I've probably been involved with injunctions and maybe a dozen of them and the rest, the 90 other other percent is you just go to the merits of the case you just have a trial or you have a summary judgment or whatever you're gonna have but you're not dealing with this mini trial about whether the judge can exercise power to stop a harm from happening that hasn't happened yet and the problem with New Mexico and the other 14 states is they talked a lot about if she even said it in her order if if if Karen what did you make of the order? And then we can wrap it into what I think the states are going to do next based on a

new filing that they just made. I mean, look, a couple of things. First of all, it just, again, all of Donald Trump's claims that Judge Chetkin was somehow tainted, biased, corrupt, all the things he called her, She doesn't, she calls balls and strikes like she sees them. And this is one that frankly goes to a win, a temporary win, but goes to a win in the column of Donald Trump's administration. So I just think it's unfair that he has painted her with this lens of,

you know, people looked at her like somehow she was biased and she clearly wasn't. So she calls things like she sees it. So, you know, look, it seems, I understand what you're saying about irreparable harm. It seems to me that the plaintiffs here, the dozen or so states that brought this, should have brought some actual plaintiffs and added that the plaintiffs here, the dozen or so states that brought this, should have brought some actual plaintiffs and added them as plaintiffs who will have irreparable harm. You know, the people who are losing their jobs as a result of this, the funding that is not going to go towards medical research or the people who aren't going to receive

much needed food in other countries, et etc. I mean, there's so many people who will suffer irreparable harm. And as much as you can say, oh, well, losing your job is not a reporable harm because you can be paid later, tell that to the person who loses their house because they can't pay the mortgage. Tell that to the person who ends up homeless on the street that that's not a reporable harm, right? That's government employees. And so many of them are going to be impacted here. These aren't wealthy people like Elon Musk. This is a civil service career that so many people have as government employees.

And it's just not fair that they are they're being treated as if they are somehow not human and not doing a huge public service. It's the civil service. And they could have easily found plaintiffs with irreparable harm. So that was the only thing I didn't love about it. But she found that the states didn't have irreparable harm. And therefore she, but she also added in there,

look, I think there's a good merits argument on the appointments clause. Because basically what she was saying was, look, Elon Musk has been appointed in violation on the appointments clause. Because basically what she was saying was, look, Elon Musk has been appointed in violation of the appointments clause because he was essentially appointed without the advice and consent of the Senate. And so she said, look, I think you could potentially win

on the merits, but you don't have this irreparable harm for a temporary restraining order. So, you know, and he they're moving so quickly that I do think he can do irreparable harm. I don't think it's hypothetical. They are they are doing things at lightning speed. So they filed the judge required them by five o'clock today to file a proposal on briefing schedule. They agree on some things and not another. The briefing schedule that they proposed is, which basically time out by April and she would make a decision by then. Despite my recommendation and my hot take, the 14 attorneys general have decided they

don't want to combine their preliminary injunction with their merits case. So they want to try to go forward and convince the judge that they've been irreparably harmed. They think they can do a better job with their guidance, I guess. I'm not sure about that. I would just go to the merits and get to the trial in the same period of time and make the ruling. Interestingly enough, the Department of Justice's position is we could just, you should judge, combine the two and just do preliminary judging of merits. And I have a feeling she's going to do that, which is an insider baseball way of saying there's going to be one set of briefing, one major hearing, and one judicial ruling in this case from which people can take their appeal. And we will get a ruling from her

sometime in April based on this briefing schedule that we will report on. And it's one of several cases that could lead to Elon Musk being removed from his role in government, no matter the fact that they lied to the federal judge and she caught him. Because they filed an affidavit in which they said that, everybody keeps saying he's the head of Doge. He's not the head of Doge. He's not making decisions about federal workers or firing them or things like that.

He's a special advisor to the president. He's like Anita Dunn, the one that worked for Joe Biden. I'm like, are you effing kidding me? And the judge says, let me remind the Department of Justice of their obligation to speak truthfully to the court and not to lie to the court in terms of the role of Justice of their obligation to speak truthfully to the court and not to lie to the court in terms of the role of Elon Musk. So we'll watch what happens, but again, I have a procedural question for you. So in a case like this, they're seeking declaratory judgment, right? They're seeking not money damages. They're seeking a ruling that this is what the law is. This is

what you can and cannot do. And so is this something that in order to do that, do they have a trial? Yes. OK, but is it a jury trial or a bench trial? Bench. A bench trial. So they would have a trial in front of Judge Chutkin to determine that she would rule and then they can appeal that ruling. That's how this would go. Yeah. Juries don't make declarations. The judge does.

So it's one of those equitable powers that only a judge can. So if we had a case together, for instance, and there were a declaration count and a money count, the judge would do the declaration count and the jury would do the money count. And then the judge can decide whether with the parties, whether the jury's going to do the finding a fact part whether the jury's gonna do the finding a fact part or she's gonna do the finding a fact part on the deck part. Here it's easy because they're only seeking a deck, a declaratory judgment.

So it'll just be a trial on the merits related to that. And after briefing, look, it is what it is. I mean, there's always so much evidence you can put in. They're not gonna have a fight over the facts. They're gonna have a fight over the law. And Donald Trump wants to keep taking these appeals in order to get to the United States Supreme Court about his ability to decapitate all the leadership

of all these departments and to have Musk do what he's doing. Donald Trump just declared, if you're a patriot, you can't commit a crime. And if you're Elon Musk, I don't know what his title is, but he's a patriot and whatever he does is right. That's not what I voted for. And that's not how our democracy works. So the sooner we get these cases to the United States Supreme Court, you and I can talk about them the better. Let's, let's

really before you move on. Um, there was something I learned about in preparing for, for this part of the case and it's the, the something called the Humphreys executor case from 100 years ago, which essentially it is similar, it has, it's adjacent to what we're talking about. And it's really, and they're trying to essentially get these issues to the Supreme Court to get them to overrule this to make this unitary executive. Because it's basically the case that says, look, that their Congress can require by passing laws presidents to show cause such as malfeasance before dismissing certain people, before firing people, right? And so you've got all kinds of positions in government that Donald Trump is either firing

people or Elon Musk is trying to eliminate. And all of this is going to bubble up to the Supreme Court. And I think that Clarence Thomas has said, has signaled he would like to overrule this as well and continue to solidify power in Donald Trump and get this unitary executive that we've been talking about. It's just terrifying how many of these, you see that they're planting the seeds in so many places,

but they all lead to the same place. Oh yeah, you have at least four the same place. Oh, yeah. You have four. You have at least four votes in the United States Supreme Court, Cavanaugh, Gorsuch, Alito, and Thomas, who believe, and some of them worked in the executive branch, who believe in the unitary theory of the presidency that there are no independent agencies, there's no independence at all. And everybody just it just reports directly to the

president. And he's his own fill in the blank. And no one has ever really adopted that. We're going to see what the supreme if they can get a fifth And everybody just, it just reports directly to the president. And he's his own fill in the blank. And no one has ever really adopted that. We're gonna see what the, if they can get a fifth vote for that through Chief Justice Roberts. Let's wrap up with soon to be not Mayor Adams of New York.

And what it says about the Justice Department. I'll do a two liner on it. Mayor Adams indicted for bribery, for taking foreign donations, for looking the other way because the Turkish government paid for his luxury travel and in return the quid pro quo there, because we have a double quid pro quo here, is that he would have the fire marshal and the building department look the other way in New York, approve the Turkish consulate for the arrival of the Turks so they wouldn't be embarrassed,

and he got, you know, he lined his pocket in the meantime. He gets indicted for that. That was not an example of weaponization. That was an example of Democrats who commit crimes being indicted. That's why Menendez is looking, Senator Menendez is looking at 15 years in jail for taking gold bricks from the Egyptians. And that's why Mayor Adams was indicted and Hunter Biden was indicted. These are examples of an impartial Department of Justice. Mayor Adams has been currying favor in trying to solicit a pardon from Donald Trump, and Donald Trump decided I got one better. You play ball with my immigration policy in New York and you destroy the sanctuary city

status of New York and I'll dismiss your indictment but without prejudice, meaning you don't play ball, I'm going to re-indict you. That's the unholy bargain. Mayor Adams thought that could save his career, it's not going to. He's either gonna get removed by a feature of the New York City Charter, where people can vote him out, four different people can vote him out, or four people could vote him out,

or Governor Hockel is going to take him out. I think they're all waiting to see something that happened in court today. And so Judge Ho, who we talked about at the top of the podcast, had a very interesting hearing because Emil Bové showed up in court to argue that for political expediency purposes and no other reason that they want to have the indictment dismissed. Normally a judge, when the executive branch who's responsible for prosecuting a case says that they want to have the indictment dismissed. Normally a judge, when the executive branch who's responsible for prosecuting a case

says that they want to dismiss something, he rubber stamps it. But I don't think Judge Ho is gonna rubber stamp it. And there's plenty of people, including here on Legal AF, that are calling for Judge Ho to do something within his inherent authority, which is to assign a special prosecutor to evaluate and investigate what

happened here. And don't let Danielle Sassoon sacrifice your career in vain. And the other seven prosecutors under her, including the entirety of the Public Integrity Unit in Washington, get to the bottom of what happened, figure out whether justice was done there, protect the justice system in the eyes of the American people and assign a special counsel that the not through the Department of Justice because you can't trust them here through him. And that's what we're waiting on.

While I think Governor Hockel waits to see what's gonna happen in the next 72 hours with Judge Ho. What's your perspective, Karen? Look, I don't know what's taking the governor so long, frankly, to me the straw that broke the camel's back was this weekend when the four, half of his cabinet, the four deputy mayors resigned, in particular Chauncey Parker,

who's somebody I've known my entire career, who is the most ethical, credible person. He's one of the most regarded and respected people in New York. Frankly, he you will not find any person on either side of the aisle, Democrat or Republican, who will say a negative thing about Chauncey Parker. He's just a really good guy. And he was the he was he was head of public safety. He was a former federal prosecutor,

former state prosecutor at the Manhattan DA's office. He was an executive for Cy Vance. He's now working for the police department. He's just a policy guy and he's just been in public service forever. And when he stepped down this weekend, essentially signaling to the world that he doesn't have confidence in Mayor Adams

and he can't work for this administration. He's literally the least political person I know. I thought, oh my God, that's the biggest statement of all. I mean, having people like Chauncey Parker and the other three deputy mayors who resigned actually made people think, okay, things are gonna be okay, even though Mayor Adams has this case,

at least we'll know that there's not gonna be corruption in city government anymore. Things are gonna go forward and the ship is gonna stay on course. And people surmise that's why Kathy Holcomb, the governor left Mayor Adams in place because he had surrounded himself by such good people. Well, they've all walked out the door.

And so I do not know what's taking her so long. And what happened today in court was, so Danielle Sassoon, who was the United States attorney, the Republican chosen acting US attorney, resigned in protest because she wasn't going to sign her name to this dismissal because it was this corrupt quid pro quo essentially and dangling this thing over Mayor Adams' head, this dismissal without

prejudice, meaning we could bring it back any time so that he can implement Trump's immigration policies and other policies, which is a bridge too far. You don't do that. It's actually the definition of corruption. And so everybody was looking for Judge Ho today at the hearing to really hold a factual hearing, hold their feet to the fire, and frankly, at least make a record of what's going on here. But I wasn't there, I didn't see the hearing, but I read a lot about it, the live tweets, and spoke to some people who were there. And it appears that Judge Hoh did something

extremely conservative, meaning he didn't take advantage of all the things he could have taken advantage of. He didn't cross examine anybody. He hasn't yet appointed anyone to take it the adverse position, which he could do. Because right now you've got the prosecution and the defense agreeing that the case should be dismissed. But you've also got officers of the court, Danielle Sassoon

and others, who have written these very public letters about the corruption going on here. And if I were the court, if I were a judge, and I'm not, I would want to get to the bottom of that. That is extremely troubling. And, but, and, and certainly what Judge Ho said was, look, it's, I don't have the discretion here not to do this, but I do have some role. And so I was hoping he would use this as a fact finding and appoint someone to take the adverse position, which is done all the time, by the way,

when you appoint someone, for example, and when people file an amicus brief, a judge can reject it or accept it. And if they're accepting it, they can appoint someone to take the adverse position, just so all sides are fully briefed and fully explored. And so I was hoping Judge Ho would do that.

He still could. Hopefully, he will. He did not rule from the bench. He said, I want to do this by the book, and I'm going to take my time and make a decision after considering all positions. But with the record that was created here, I mean, Emil Bové didn't pretend, change his story. He basically came in and was like, I could do whatever I want.

We have discretion. We could do what we want. Yes, this is what we're doing. And didn't kind of, he's not even pretending to have this be about anything else. And so I think that this case have this be about anything else. And so I think that this case is going to be dismissed fairly quickly. I do hope Judge Ho appoints somebody to take the adverse position.

So at least there's a record. And that's that. You know, I was disappointed, let's say, that Judge Ho was not more aggressive at trying to get to the truth here, given what we know and what we have seen has happened. I mean, in the history of the Department of Justice, you do not have the crisis that is going on here and people resigning in mass, being locked in a room

and told you're gonna be fired if you don't file this. You don't have the president essentially saying, I will dismiss this case if it's not, if you don't do what I want you to do. And, you know, the judge did give a hypothetical to Emil Bové because one of the things they said was, oh, look, you know, he's running for office six months from now or whenever that is, when the primaries are. And, you know, we don't want to interfere with an election and, you know, and we don't want to interfere with presidential policies. And Judge Ho said, so what if it was a police commissioner? Would that be the same? And he's

like, oh, yes, that would be the same. You know, like he basically said, if you're a politician or if you're involved in politics, and you that that we're not going to interfere, we're not going to get involved, which is, you know, crazy. It's just absolutely insane to me that this is what the position that our government is taking and the hearing's over. Yeah. So we'll watch to see what Judge Ho does next. Whether he appoints a special prosecutor or a special counsel or he dismisses the case, we'll continue to follow that and everything else at the intersection of law and politics.

One place here on the Midas Touch Network and on Legal AF, Wednesdays and Saturdays at 8 p.m. You got Karen Freeman at Knifilow right here on Wednesdays. Spend my cellos to me on Saturdays and we do hot takes about every hour at that same intersection, but we couldn't do it without our supporters. We're people powered. So shout out to the Midas, Mighty and Legal AFers.

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