Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Legal AF Full Episode 4/19/2025

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

Ben Meiselas & Michael Popok head the top rated Legal AF podcast and tonight debate: how federal judges up to the Supreme Court are addressing a lawless presidency; the Supreme Court’s late night surprising stay to block Trump deporting more people to El Salvador; Judge Wilkinson’s scathing yet soaring criticism of the Administration while approving of a Judge’s process that could lead to a Trump Administration contempt finding; another appellate panel leaning over to help Trump avoid a criminal contempt charge and prosecution; and why the Supreme Court has scheduled an oral argument to consider judges’ powers to issue nationwide injunctions and to decide whether the constitution provides for birthright citizenship; and so much more at the intersection of law and politics. Support Our Sponsors: VIIA: Try VIIA Hemp! https://viia.co/legalaf and use code LEGALAF! Rocket Money: Let Rocket Money reach your financial goals faster by going to https://rocketmoney.com/legalaf Sundays For Dogs: Get 40% off your first order of Sundays. Go to https://sundaysfordogs.com/LEGALAF or use code LEGALAF at checkout. Fast Growing Trees: Head to https://www.fast-growing-trees.com/collections/sale?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=description&utm_campaign=legalaf right now to get 15% off your entire order with code LegalAF! Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Peanut butter cups that breathy one sounded very creepy am I right to support sustainable food production? BHP is building one of the world's largest potash mines in Canada essential resources responsibly produced it's happening now at BHP a future resources company It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. Ooh, nice. Air Canada has a worldwide sale. Wow, look at this deal to the Philippines. Nice, let's book it. But wait, Naples is also a steal. Saving seafood and sun? You want sun? There's a hot deal to Mexico.

And even hotter to Yellowknife. Nice, but I thought you wanted tropical hot. You're all over the map. Well, yeah, we've got over 180 destinations to choose from saving on every single destination Nice hurry book at air Canada comm or contact your travel agents conditions apply Air Canada nice travels At 1 a.m the United States Supreme Court issued an emergency stay blocking the Trump regime from sending another group of Venezuelan migrants to concentration camps in El Salvador. It was a 7-2 ruling, very rare for the Supreme Court to jump in at 1 a.m. and they sent a clear message to the Trump regime. We don't

trust you, Donald, so we are making sure we make our position clear by blocking the flights. We should also talk about what's been going down with Abrego Garcia, one of the reasons. Also, the Supreme Court doesn't trust the Trump regime anymore. I could give you a million other reasons, but this is just one of them.

We should talk about Senator Van Hollen's trip to El Salvador, meeting with Abrego Garcia, how the authoritarian leader of El Salvador Naid Bou Kelly tried to set this up with like margaritas to act like a Brago Garcia was treating well I want to talk about everything that's going on there everything that's going on in the federal court proceedings before Judge Zinnis in Maryland what the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeal ruled what a powerful ruling by a Reagan appointed judge, Judge Wilkinson.

Let's talk about the Washington DC proceedings before federal Judge Boasberg, where he found the Trump regime in contempt regarding that original flight of the first group of Venezuelan migrants who were sent to the concentration camps in El Salvador. That contempt order was temporarily stayed by the DC Circuit Court of Appeals. A bad panel, a bad ruling, but it's only an administrative state, but we will bring that down. We will break that down. Also, the Supreme Court has set oral arguments on two major cases, one involving

birthright citizenship, the other on national nationwide injunctions in May, both on, I think, May 15th. We'll break this down and more on Legal AF. But Popak, I want to start off by reading from the opinion of Judge Wilkinson. I think we start off reading this. He's a Reagan appointed judge, one of the leaders in the kind of conservative judicial movement, and one of the big feeders to Supreme Court justices. The clerks worked for this guy Wilkinson first before working for the Supreme Court justice.

Let me just read this one paragraph where he denied the Trump regime's attempt to appeal the order by Judge Zinnis when Judge Zinnis set out a process by which the Trump regime's attempt to appeal the order by Judge Zinnis when Judge Zinnis set out a process by which the Trump administration should show that it was trying to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia. Judge Wilkinson, again, Reagan appointed conservative Republican, writing in a unanimous opinion for the fourth circuit says, it is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter, but in this says, it is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter.

But in this case, it is not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear. We'll get to that rule and more on Legal AF, but I wanted to mention

that at the outset. Michael Popak, a busy, busy week in the courts, and then that 1 a.m. order earlier today. Which woke us both up, and we both hit, respectively, hot takes on Legal AF and here on Midas Touch Network. Look, we got a lawless executive branch led by Donald Trump, and we're watching courts at every level, circuit court, trial court, Supreme Court struggle with the tools in their toolbox on how to restrain them. You and I are

going to talk about three different, this is going to be like a breakout tutorial, law school meets Ted talk about administrative stays. We've got three in the last 48 hours that were considered by three different courts about Donald Trump's out of control, reckless, lawless immigration policy. We've got the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals written by Harvey Wilkinson. And I don't wanna undersell Wilkinson for a minute. He is a icon, a rock rib dragon Republican.

He is a, if they were chiseling a new Mount Rushmore, especially for the Federalist Society, he would be on it. Judge Ludwig from the formerly of the Fourth Circuit would be on it. I mean, this is about as far away, Ben, from a radical leftist, Marxist, activist judge, which Donald Trump always uses those words to talk about somebody like Judge Zinnis at the fourth. Not only that, Harvey Wilkinson not only wrote a book when he was like 26 years old

coming out of a Supreme Court clerkship, but he wrote a book about 10 years ago about cosmic interpretation of the Constitution, in particular, arguing that judges should never be activists, judges should never be ideologues, judges should be humble and have humility. That's the guy that just wrote the passage and there's some others in there that we'll touch on

when we get to that segment. So that was the fourth saying we respect what Judge Zinnis is doing, she's doing everything right off the Supreme Court decision in her favor about Armando Abrego Garcia. You go judge, you do you, but while we're here, let's use soaring rhetoric to completely tear down Donald Trump and appeal to his inner angels,

his higher angels. He has no higher angels. It's all devils replacing other devils. That's the fourth. Then the DC Court of Appeals, a day later, in a three judge panel that you and I worried about, because we saw two Trumpers in Roehl and Katz's, they came out and said,

well, we hear you Judge Boesberg about your probable cause on criminal contempt against the Trump administration and possible referral for prosecution, but why don't we put a pin in that for a day or two while we get our arms around the process? So forget your next Wednesday deadline, stay. And then we have a dissent from from Pollard, the Obama appointee who said, why are we staying anything?

This isn't even right for an appeal. And then one AM or 10 PM, whatever it was Eastern time, Pacific time, bing, bing, bing, you're my phone. Everybody's phone starts blowing up, I'm walking a dog, my dog didn't feel well late last night, and I get, holy cow, look what just got issued, and we have been following and tracking this case,

cases, what the ACLU had been doing off of three weeks ago as ruling by the Supreme Court, which told Judge Boasberg, you're right and you're wrong. You're right on the Alien Enemies Act about there needs to be due process and notice, but you're wrong about the procedure. It needs to be habeas corpus petitions in individual places where these people are being processed

before they leave the United States. We'll just completely ignore the 250 that already went and we'll never get that due process. That's now the law of the land. So go do it by individual petitions. All right, ACLU said, well, we'll see you judges and we'll match you. They filed individual petitions and class action petitions

on habeas corpus in various jurisdictions and started getting rulings in their favor. The one in Texas, Northern District, that one in particular, they couldn't get anybody to give them the stay and they had notice from a number of immigration lawyers that their clients were given imminent, their removal was imminent,

off on a plane under the Alien Enemies Act over to El Salvador, like any moment. So they ran to the judge, the judge says no. They ran to the Fifth Circuit. The Fifth Circuit of course said, well we don't see what the harm is gonna be, putting them on a plane without due process. And so they had to file this fast application last night

to the Supreme Court. And in a 7-2 decision, we have an administrative stay. You and I are gonna talk more about what administrative stays where they were very pointed and said, nobody in the northern district of Texas including Blue Bonnet wherever that is in that that is a part of this putative class is going anywhere until we figure out with briefing what's going on here so everybody sit out now let's see what the Trump administration does next they're very good at taunting, and they're very good at funny memes and getting Bukele, who's their puppet,

to do funny things to their MAGA base. But this is the United States Supreme Court and their commands. And we've got two judges, the Supreme Court and Judge Zinnis in the Fourth Circuit, Maryland trial court, who are making, who are moving, maneuvering this administration into possible second level contempt. All right, there's a lot of moving parts here

and a lot of people are saying, okay, Abrego, Supreme Court, Texas, Blue Bonnet Detention, Boasberg, Judge Zennis, you guys are saying a lot of things. Can you break it down for me what's happening? So let's just talk about states, districts, right? There's DC proceedings, District of Columbia, Federal Court there, that's Judge Boasburg.

Judge Boasburg was the judge who ordered that whatever Trump was doing with the first group of Venezuelans who were sent to the El Salvador concentration camps be returned. The Trump regime violated that order, sent that first group that's currently right now in Seacot, the El Salvador concentration camp. And so Boesberg, DC federal judge, he was the one who's found probable cause for the Trump regime in contempt, criminal contempt for violating his order. Separately, the Supreme Court reversed Judge Boesberg's order, essentially ordering the return of those prisoners and ordering or being involved

and enjoining what the Trump regime did because the Supreme Court ruled, as Popak said, that because he's a DC judge, he doesn't have jurisdiction, say, for people who live in Maryland or people who are being held in Texas, that he could only deal with the things before him in Washington, DC. So therefore, there has to be cases filed in different districts, okay? So, Boasburg, Federal Judge, DC. The DC Circuit Court of Appeals is like the boss of Boasburg.

They're the appeals court that sits above the trial court. Above it all is the United States Supreme Court. So we understand that part separately. Abrego Garcia, Abrego Garcia. He's referred to as a Maryland man. Right. So why is the case filed in Maryland? He's from Maryland. That's where he lives. He's married to an American woman.

His kids are citizens. His wife's a citizen. An immigration judge in 2019 issued a, when Trump was in office, issued a withholding order saying you can deport a brego to other countries, just not to El Salvador. Also they gave him a work permit in 2019. He has to check in with ICE, but he was able to work in Maryland. He had no criminal history, never criminal history. That's on the paperwork itself.

But because there was a double hearsay accusation by a crooked cop who then pled guilty to other misconduct involving prostitutes and paying prostitutes and all this weird stuff and criminal stuff. The immigration judge in 2019 did say, you can deport if you want to at your election, just not to El Salvador, but he can work in the United States. We don't think that he's that big of a danger,

so we're gonna give him a work permit, which requires background checks. In Maryland, there's a federal court there. Judge Boesberg's a DC judge, so he's not gonna be the Maryland judge. Maryland's gonna be a Maryland judge. So a district judge in Maryland, federal court judge, the way Boesberg's a federal judge,

there are federal judges in Maryland. The federal judge in Maryland is federal judge Zinnis. That's her name, it's Judge Zinnis. And so Judge Zinnis is the one who has been following the Supreme Court's nine to zero ruling, which is return Abrego facilitate the return. Zinnis was the first to say return Abrego Garcia. Then the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals is the boss. They sit above, they're the appeals court for the Maryland District Court. Remember in DC, I said the DC Circuit Court of Appeals sits above the DC District Court in Maryland. It is the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in New York. It would be the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in Florida or Georgia. It would be the 10th Circuit Court. There's different 11th. Sorry, 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. Colorado would be the 10th. Sorry, 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. There's different- 11th. Sorry, 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.

Colorado would be the 10th. Right. Sorry, 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. I just want to show you I was listening. That's good. Thank you. In different districts, they have different circuit courts that sit above the circuit courts of appeals.

So Maryland, it's Fourth Circuit. So when we're talking about the Fourth Circuit, they are hearing Trump's appeal over federal judge Zinnis requiring that there be a process for facilitating the return of Abrego Garcia. Now separately, there's Texas. Texas federal court. Why is Texas involved? Because the second batch of Venezuelan migrants, remember the first batch, and it's horrific that I'm referring to them as batches, groups of people,

but that's how the Trump regime is treating them as. The first groups already in CICOT, the concentration camp in El Salvador. A second group was moved to a detention center in Texas in the Northern District called the Blue Bonnet Detention Center. That's its name, Blue Bonnet Detention Center. It's an ICE facility where they're being held.

So the jurisdiction there, and the Trump regime wants the jurisdiction to be in Texas. More Republican judges, right-wing judges, Trump-appointed judges in Texas. So the Northern District of Texas has jurisdiction there. And there, the judge is a judge named Wes Hendricks, who Trump appointed. So we all have the story straight.

D.C. Boesberg, Maryland, Zinnis, Fourth Circuit, Maryland, D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, D.C. In Texas, it's the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals that oversees Texas. The federal judge who has this case is named Judge, Judge, what did I say? Judge Hendrick. Judge Wes Hendrick. So those are all the judges who are involved.

And the Supreme Court is above it all. So I just want everybody to have their story straight. Now with this second batch of migrants, the Trump regime, this guy Ensign, who's the Trump DOJ lawyer, made the representation both in DC and in Texas where the ACLU brought two separate cases because of these lawsuits, Ensign said,

we are not going to, we promise you, we won't send this second group of migrants to the concentration camp in El Salvador without a court order, just trust us, trust me, bro. Why was it in the two different cases? Why was it in DC? And why was it in Texas? Because the ACLU who represented these migrants didn't really know. They wanted Judge Boasberg to issue a class wide injunction. Boasberg says, I don't have the power to do that because the Supreme Court said they have to be filed in individual states.

So the ACLU went to Texas before Judge Hendricks and the Trump regime said, we're not going to do anything. Don't worry, Hendricks, we're not gonna send them. So Hendricks, Popak was basically like, it's a moot issue. The government's representing, they're not gonna send it. So what can I do?

So then it was appealed to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals basically sat on it. Then there was new evidence that the Trump regime, even though they made the representation, said they were going to send these people to El Salvador, to which the ACLU went back in front of the Texas District Court Judge Hendricks.

And then Hendricks, because he's a Trumpy guy who tried to be like, Oh, I don't know what to do, said, sorry, I don't have jurisdiction. The Fifth Circuit now has jurisdiction because you've already appealed my other order. Nothing I can do. The Fifth Circuit didn't do anything. So the ACLU with the second group had to go to the United States Supreme Court and say, Supreme Court, we need you to do something to which the Trump regime said to the Supreme Court, Hey, Supreme Court, don't worry. We've told the district court in DC. We've told the district court in Texas. We're not going to send these migrants

to the concentration camps until they get a habeas proceeding. So that's the framework. And then when the Supreme Court still said, Popak, we don't trust you, that's a big deal. I'm sorry, Popak, I described that so long, but there's so much moving parts with this district, that district.

I want you to talk about the specific cases, but I want you to do a little professor lesson of where these districts are, that's all. Yeah, and look, let me take it from another angle. A masterful, and this should give our audience a lot of confidence, a masterful display of litigation skill and strategy and tactics by the American Civil Liberties Union in this, everything that you just described, most of

what you just described as it relates to those that haven't yet been removed that are being threatened with imminent removal. The lack of due process is the problem here. And this Trump administration's refusal to recognize the fundamental precept of due process and notice. Because due process without notice is no due process at all.

And you could also compromise due process if you don't give the party enough time with a proper notice, like in Spanish, not in English, which is what happened here. Give them time to retain counsel. Since the Supreme Court has said they have to file individual or maybe class action versions of petitions for writ of habeas corpus, they got to get together in a class or they've got to retain a lawyer.

The lawyer has to have time to prepare and file the petition. The court has to have time to make a ruling as the jets are fueling and the wheels are about to roll up. And that means that the Trump administration is, as we know from the social media postings where they just flouted, you know, their answer to Judge Wilkinson, like can't you use your higher angels to, in this moment in time,

to support the rule of law? And they were like, oh, look at this. Senator Van Hollen, we have a response to you. We're going to draw penises and mustaches on the New York Times headline. You're never getting Abrigo Garcia back. They're like, what? And if anybody doesn't think that, when we get to it,

the United States Supreme Court's 7- two decision to at least do an administrative stay to stop those flights, I assure you, they saw that. Everybody saw it, whether you follow the Midas Touch Network or Legal AF or not. So masterful job of the ACLU on this due process notice issue. They run first to Boesberg, who you've identified, the judge in DC.

And Boesberg, who trust me, is chomping at the bit to do something in this case besides the criminal contempt finding. He says, guys, I'd like to, however, however, the Supreme Court has said, my bosses have said, I don't have jurisdiction. This has to be in Texas or New York or Colorado, all these other places before these people are deported.

So I can't do a class action notice requirement, but they're fueling the planes. I know, I hear you. So ACLU, boom, runs back to the judge and they get the judge that you identified. Interesting thing about him, we'll talk about him a little bit later. He was an Obama appointee that never got out of committee.

Then Trump picked him up and put him there. But he certainly, he gave more credence to the Department of Justice and their credibility. Why would they lie to me? I don't know, they lie every court they're in. Or the lawyers are purposefully not given information by their client, the administration, or their bosses at the Department of Justice

in order to make them have implausible deniability and that's just as bad. The fact that they participate in that is large. So ACLU loses at the judge in Texas, in the Northern District of Texas where this blue bonnet is. They have been winning all around. They won in the Southern District of Texas because each state is divided into federal districts So the southern this is why when you and I get like they lose Because of the the only reason why they lost is because the Trump regime the executive branch says We we agree with what you're saying. We'll give him habeas. That's the only reason why they lost Yeah, and they said we don't trust you right so southern district of Texas

This is why when you and I get to nationwide injunctions why they're so important judge there says well It's rid of habeas corpus, but in the entire Southern District of Texas. Nobody's going anywhere Colorado same thing part of Colorado part of New York same thing Northern District of Texas blue bonnet No, this judge not doing it. So they run off to the Fifth Circuit, which is so far right-leaning You know it barely can stand up so they go there and the Fifth Circuit says, well, we don't see a problem, even though there's three affidavits from immigration lawyers that say, our guys are being told, and it's now been translated for them, that they are imminently going

to be boarded on planes, forget that guy named Truence, he doesn't know what he's talking about, and they filed the affidavits. Well, no, we're not going to do that. Especially given that the Supreme Court has basically acknowledged that the people already sent to El Salvador are never coming back and they don't have due process rights because they got off on the planes outside of jurisdiction

before anything could happen. So ACLU goes, crap, fire up, I'm sure they're all working simultaneously, all these teams are working simultaneously, fire up the Supreme Court emergency application brief. It was yesterday. File it, let's go. But this was last gasp.

If they didn't get that stay at one o'clock in the morning or 10 o'clock, whatever it was, these guys were gone. Never to be seen from again, not sipping margaritas, you know, in CICOT, done. And the Supreme Court, as I said margaritas, you know, in secot, done. And the Supreme Court, as I said on one of my hot takes, maybe what the Supreme Court says does matter. Maybe they care about what their orders are. So it's an administrative stay for now,

meaning it's a temporary hold the ring or put a pin in it as they get briefing in from the other side, which would be the Solicitor General's Office for Trump. And then they'll make their decision without the same problem. Shadow Docket came up through Alito, referred to the full court, two in dissent, Alito and Thomas. We're still waiting for Alito's statement, whatever that means,

about why he wouldn't have sided with the seven of two. But they are like, let's get the briefing in. Nobody go anywhere. Nobody leave. Nobody gets deported and removed until we've had time to do it. Doesn't mean once they got the full briefing without oral argument on a very limited scan skeletal record, it doesn't mean managing expectations here for the audience that they couldn't redo the voting, so to speak, and it comes out against these guys.

Oh no, that seems to be like enough due process. I just don't see it. What is the due process? What is the Solicitor General gonna say? The only thing I think he can say, Ben, which is Donald Trump's former appellate criminal lawyer, John Sauer, is, oh, you're getting into foreign affairs again, this is the power. A

war has been declared. He doesn't, you know, very limited rights under habeas corpus. I just don't see it based on the record. I think the, even the Supreme Court, five votes of it at least, are going to say this is not notice and due process through habeas that we demanded. And you're effing with us. They're not going to say that last part. But I think, what do you think the Supreme Court does, even on full briefing by John Sauer? I think they're going to clarify now what the habeas process looks like.

Right. In detail, in depth, what the time constraints are that need to be provided and really set forth the process by which the habeas takes place because now that the Supreme Court really prevented the kind of class action style that the ACLU wanted, let's go to one judge in DC to address all this whole group together. Now we have to go deal with the Maryland case in Maryland, the Texas case in Texas. And the problem is when you divide and conquer migrants

who often don't have, almost all don't have the resources to have a lawyer lined up and to within 24 hours file habeas corpus petitions and have hearings and line up the lawyers, you create this resource disparity which then allows the government to take people and very quickly move them to El Salvador. But we're talking about- Before you move on, you can finish your thought,

but before you move on, I want one last thought before we take our break. You know what I was gonna say? I think Judge Wilkinson's ruling that we're gonna talk about after the break played a major part in this. I think the fact that the Supreme Court gave Donald Trump a face saving way out of Abrego Garcia in the 9-0 ruling about Facilitate and Trump gave them the middle finger.

When we get, when we come back, I want to read the Supreme Court ruling. It's short, but what it says to me, not in the words, but in its substance is, we don't trust your representations, Trump regime, that you're not going to send these people to El Salvador. If this was any other executive branch, any other one, Biden, Bush, Reagan, Clinton, Obama, you name it. And the executive branch told a court, and this is why the Fifth Circuit and the federal judge in Texas ruled the way they did. Because they're like, nah, we still trust Trump. So what do you want us to do here? The Supreme Court's like, we don't. So we're putting it in order. That's extraordinary. Let me just, I agree with you. One last one minute point, then we'll take the break that we're gearing up for.

What we're also watching, and I want to put this on our audience's radar, is the unseemly side of the shadow docket and the emergency docket. Donald Trump has obviously made a decision that he's gonna slam the Supreme Court with as many emergency applications. This one came from the ACLU, but it's the same problem on the flip side of the coin.

When the emergency docket is activated, okay, it means scant record development of facts below by the trial judge. It means limited briefing on those scant facts that were developed. It means no oral argument. And more importantly, because you and I are students of the Supreme Court,

I've been, I mean, I got my first copy of The Brethren about, you know, back when I was in high school about what goes on in the inner workings of the Supreme Court and how they make their opinions. But that was nothing about the shadow docket. That was about what Trump figured out is if you don't give the Supreme Court individual justices time to lobby each other

and time to circulate competing drafts and use their clerks to run around the hallway to try to gather votes and do a caucus. If you don't do that, then they have to go into their ideological corners. And he knows he's got four votes just on reflexive ideology in Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, Alito, and Thomas. He knows that we're out, the rule of law is outnumbered, four to three right there, with the three being, of course, Kataji Brown, Jackson, Kagan, and Sotomayor. So then it's just, all he has to do is fight for one,

because he only has to get one of Roberts and or Amy Coney Barrett. But what we're watching is, and this is why you'll see dissents and statements and other things coming out of the Supreme Court, because they're not allowed to do their normal deliberative process over a series of months and circulate because Trump's not allowing them, or Trump's actions are causing the emergency docket to be used, which is ending up in the exact same place. Usually when you and I studied the law and did an entire course for a year or two on Con Law,

constitutional law, the cases that we studied came out of that deliberative process that I just identified. Brown versus the Board of Education, Griswold v Connecticut, Marbury versus Madison, all of it, it all came out of this deliberative process and vote trading and getting. That's gone. Everything you and I have been talking about over the last 80, 90 days is all coming off of the emergency shadow docket. And it's a shabby way to run a democracy.

I agree with you, Popak. I want to remind everybody to go to Michael Popak's YouTube channel. It's on its way to 1 million subscribers, the Legal AF YouTube channel. Make sure you check it out, hit subscribe and turn your notifications on. In addition, would love for everybody to also subscribe. Here, of course, we're on our way to 5 million subscribers. Michael Popak started his own law firm. Where do people reach out to you, Popok?

They have catastrophic injury. They know someone who's been in a catastrophic injury. If they themselves have been injured, the consultations are free. We had a lot of demand of people wanting, you know, to, they had cases and, you know, and really kind of, you know, you handle wrongful death cases, real serious injury cases, sexual harassment and abuse cases.

So if anyone has a case like that, reach out to Popak's law firm now. Popak, where can they reach out to you? 1877 Popak AF. We've got lawyers and people standing by to talk about your case for a free case consultation. And you can also go to the website, popocfirm.com. And there's a reason I'm focusing on those kind

of catastrophic, horrible cases, life altering cases. It's because this is what I can, in addition to the commitment I've made to the Minus Touch Network and to help grow Legal AF as a community. This is where my limited legal time can best be spent. And that's why we focused on it there. Thanks for talking about it, Ben. Everybody, we'll be right back after a quick break.

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So check it out. And they help keep shows like this going on the MidasDutch Network. Now that you all are experts in jurisdiction and the way the court of appeals oversee the district courts and the Supreme Court oversees it all, let me just read for you the Supreme Court order so you all can, I'm sure you now will understand it

much better after the description that Michael Popock and I gave in the first segment. There is before the court an application on behalf of a putative class of detainees seeking an injunction against their removal under the Alien Enemies Act. The matter is currently pending before the Fifth Circuit. Upon action by the Fifth Circuit,

the Solicitor General is invited to file a response to the application before this court as soon as possible. The government is directed not to remove any member of the punitive class of detainees from the United States until further order of this court, Justice Thomas and Justice Alito dissent from the court's order statement from Justice Alito to follow.

So a seven to two panel on this issue, or seven to two panel on this issue, or seven to two ruling on this issue, and that's the order, that's the current status. We'll keep you posted as we learn more. So Michael Popock, throughout the week, and the various, you know, Thursday, Friday, when Senator Van Hollen of Maryland, Maryland Senator, went to see Abrego Garcia, at first he was denied access.

Then he also invoked international law, which I think was a major factor in applying pressure. The official Trump accounts were posting photos, AI-manipulated photos of Senator Van Hollen to look like an MS-13 gang member with like MS-13 tattoos on his forehead And just kind of mocking him and then Senator Van Hollen was able to secure a meeting with the Brego Garcia Look folks El Salvador is a poor Latin American country. It relies on tourism and

the idea of Americans boycotting El Salvador tourism the idea of Americans boycotting El Salvador tourism, the idea of international communities applying pressure on El Salvador whose entire GDP is $34 billion a year, like that pressure works. Their authoritarian leader, Naid Boukeli, tried to act like this was like checkmate and he was playing like three dimensional chess against Senator Van Hollen.

He tried to set up a photo op with like margaritas and poolside to make it seem like Abrego Garcia was just having the time of his life out there. Later Senator Van Hollen talked about all of the North Korea or I should just say El Salvador style or now Trumpian style manipulation and propaganda that was taking place. But we did get signs of life of Abrego Garcia. We also learned that he was moved from CICOT,

the concentration camp, to another prison facility as well in El Salvador. One of the reasons I think that's the case is that CICOT is Bukele's baby. It's like his main thing. It's his main international kind of propaganda. And he sees the pressure as we're all focusing on what's going on in CICOT as this concentration camp.

And so whether Abrego is going to be able to come back to the United States or not, the Trump administration or regime is saying no. Bukele is saying never. But if he does, I think that Bukele is nervous. I mean, that's why he's moving him out of CICOT so that he's not able to tell additional stories about what's going on in CICOT. That's why I think he's being moved.

But Popak, why don't you walk us through though, because now that we've also, I think, appropriately framed jurisdiction, Judge Zinnis's ruling, Fourth Circuit, which oversees the Maryland Court of Appeals, that's the three judge panel with Judge Wilkinson, those rulings, and then this meeting between Senator Van Hollen and Ibrega. Let's take that piece. Yeah, yeah. The just to touch on El Salvador for just a moment.

It's an island of six million people whose GDP is what you outlined. He has it, this is what Bukele wanted. He had an empty Seacot with 40,000 beds in it that he wanted filled. And so that dangle of $6 million, which has to be pursuant to some sort of contractor agreement that we're trying to get our hands on.

Unless the Trump administration is just completely flagrant in how they mismanage our taxpayer dollars and just send $6 million and not on some sort of agreement, we'll get to the bottom of that. Judge Zinnis will get to the bottom of it. One out of every 68 people in El Salvador is in jail. If you do the math, when Donald Trump said, when Bukele visited, remember that guy

with the black t-shirt and the suit jacket, they had no problem when he didn't wear a shirt and tie. It's only when Zelensky, who's at war, they had a problem when he didn't wear a shirt and tie. But if it's Musk, or it's this guy, the petty dictator of El Salvador, no, everything's fine. And there, when they were doing this scripted, as you and I envisioned and anticipated,

pitch and catch that could later use in court between Bukele and Trump and all the other clowns, this is like a clown car shoved together with lots of different clowns in the Trump administration, all these cabinet members, the Oval Office has become the new Broadway stage for Donald Trump, he's always got to do something there. Everybody's got to be there with him.

Take turns, Steve Miller, you, I'm sure, is behind the White House posting about Van Hollen and about you're never going to get him back. Pam Bondi and then McKelley, here's your part of the script that was written for you. And there Trump said, oh, you need more, 40,000? We need five times that. We need bigger. We need more. Do the math. Six million people at the 250 that went

already that's 24,000 a prisoner. If you fill the jails with American-cent prisoners use it as a storage unit for human beings. You're talking about 200 billion dollars going to El Salvador. Now you see why he's doing the dance of Donald Trump? Although it does send a chill down my spine that we're letting the El Salvadorian leader tell us how to run our rule of law and our constitution, and our constitutional republic. So Van Hollen from Maryland,

because we know Abrego Garcia lived with his family in Maryland. You know, he was picked up and arrested in front of his five-year-old, just to put a point on this. Van Hollen goes down, and he's not the only one. Cory Booker, fresh off his 35-hour, longest Senate speech in history, he's going down there. I'm sure AOC will go down.

There's a lot of people that are going down to CICOT. And so the best they could do was to give them a shirt and a cap and let them meet with Van Hollen. Trump's saying, oh, you're a fool and it's a fool's errand and he's a fool and he's not a Maryland man, let me correct you. So that's going on with the political pressure because we sit at the intersection of law and politics.

You've got the outside real world political pressure and the optics were so bad for the Trump administration that they tried to deep fake the optics by having Bukele post the margarita glasses and then the picture of the guy, you know, Van Hollen as a member of MS 13 and all the rest of it. Okay, so that's going on in real world, real time. And we know that Donald Trump can be pressured

into folding, folded on Harvard, we'll talk about it later. Fold it on tariffs, because he's watching cable news. We know how to get him to fold. And it's this world, including the world that Midas Touch contributes to in the ecosystem of independent journalism that matters. And so that's going on.

In the meantime, Zinnis, Judge Zinnis, Paula Zinnis, an Obama appointee, fine jurist, could be a Supreme Court judge one day, a justice one day, if the Democrats win the White House again, which they should. She makes her initial ruling about Abrego Garcia, orders that the Trump administration facilitate his release from El Salvador.

They take it up to the Supreme Court, Supreme Court sides with Judge Sinis two weeks ago. They just said, there's one word in there we want you to clarify, effectuate. What you mean? Fix it, we're fine with everything else. Your whole way you're administrating justice, administering justice, your whole due process angle,

your whole Fifth Amendment thing, you're doing it right. That's the right order, we got you nine zero. She takes it back like that evening and says, all right, well, I'll take a blue pencil, I got a blue pencil here, I'll take out the word effectuate, I'll take out the deadline for the return of Abrangel Garcia. You take all appropriate steps

to facilitate his release from jail. And now we start the Orwellian, tortured, stretching of words beyond all recognition. Words don't mean anything. They're like in a spelling bee. What does facilitate mean? Can you use it in a sentence? Yes, the sentence is get him out of jail.

That's the sentence. Oh, it's foreign affairs. Oh, it's an activist, Marxist judge telling a president how to conduct foreign affairs. He was duly elected. No, that's not what it is. Oh, we'll facilitate on the domestic side. If he shows up randomly, I'm not making this up, if there's like a prison break and he gets out on his own and he shows up at a port or an airport, we'll let him in. We'll deport him and remove him to another country immediately, but we'll let them in.

And that's not what the court said. So, Zinnis holds a hearing about their failure to comply and determines at that hearing, as she throws the book at Drew Ensign, who is the resident punching bag, he is the piñata for the Trump administration. And willingly, he could quit any time. You know, they fired a couple of days ago, and I did a hot take on it, Mr. Rouveni, who told the truth

about the failure of the Trump administration to abide by another federal court's order, judge's order, immigration order, and sent him knowing that he had an order against removal of El Salvador. And that fact, that stubborn little fact, has driven the Supreme Court to rule against the Trump administration, nine, zero, and every other judge.

There's now, when you add them all up, it's 21 judges who have looked at it and have ruled against the Trump administration. So she holds a hearing. She says, you haven't done anything. You've done absolutely nothing to facilitate. And she tells them every day at five o'clock, file a piece of paper that tells me what you've done and what you're gonna do. And they tell her to go eff herself every day at five o'clock, file a piece of paper that tells me what you've done

and what you're gonna do. And they tell her to go F herself every day at five o'clock. They say, we're not doing, he's alive. He's alive, I think he's alive. He's alive, there was a press conference. Bukele was here, but he doesn't wanna release him and we can't release him and that guy doesn't wanna release him

and what are we gonna do? She says, you've done absolutely nothing. In fact, there's a motion for contempt on the board. Let's get some discovery, because I'm a trial judge, let me develop a record. Why don't we have some discovery? Let's have some depositions. You know, all those people that filed those affidavits,

let's have them in depositions, sworn question and answers under oath with a court reporter. Let's do that and start noticing those. So let's do some interrogatories, written questions and answers under oath. And let's have some interrogatories, written questions and answers under oath. Let's have some documents. Let's, you know what, judges like documents. I don't want to see unofficial transcripts of press conferences. I want to see evidence out of the federal rules of civil procedure. So let's do that. How about we do that?

They didn't like that and they didn't like her ordering the start of this process towards contempt much like Boas, and they ran to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals again, and the Fourth Circuit, we knew it. You and I wrote back and forth, I said, this is Wilkinson. This is Wilkinson, even though it's like the clerk issued it. It's Wilkinson, you can tell by his writing. The guy's a prolific writer, and he, I mean, that should be, when you're doing your law school class,

if you do a legal writing or a written argument, you should take that seven pages. Because he accomplished, Wilkinson, in seven pages, what most lawyers would struggle and not do one third as well in 50. It was poignant. It was soaring. It was stinging rebuke of the Trump administration. But at the end, saying, and I'll boil it down without reading from it, and you and I have all that hot text on it, Wilkinson said to the Trump administration, you talk a lot about your second amendment, sorry, your Article II powers.

And I will agree that you have Article II powers, especially around foreign affairs. But we have Article III powers, and you are creating a grinding relationship between Article III and Article II that lessens all of us. It undermines the legitimacy of the judiciary, but it also undermines the legitimacy of your presidency, and history will write your epitaph.

That's directly, that's a paraphrase, but almost word for word from Wilkinson. And he said, I am hoping in this moment, this critical, incipient moment, that you use this opportunity to reaffirm your commitment as a presidency to the rule of law. I implore you to do that. And what was their response to Wilkinson?

And so they denied the stay to stop what they said is a fine judge in Zinnis doing a fine job with administering her process. They were not going to interfere with it, but then took six pages to fire back at Donald Trump. Now, at the time I said in my hot take, what are they going to do with Wilkinson? He's not activist. He's the opposite.

He's not a Marxist. he's not a leftist, and he's not corrupt. How are they gonna go after Harvey Wilkinson? And what they did was they posted, we'll put it up on the screen, they posted the White House official account, not even using like some plant of theirs, some social media influencer plant.

They did it from the official White House dot gov a plant of theirs, some social media influencer plant. They did it from the official whitehouse.gov with a red line of the New York Times headline. There it is. Senator meets with, cross out wrongly, deported MS-13 gang member in El Salvador. And by the way, he's never coming back. Okay, that was an FU to Harvey Wilkinson, to the rule of law, to the United States of Supreme Court, and

it certainly entered their ken, their consciousness of the nine members of the Supreme Court, at least seven of them, in ruling against the Trump administration. So the Fourth Circuit over Maryland, over Zinna says, you got this judge, keep going. They're gonna have to now at the Trump side try to get back to the United States Supreme Court fresh on one administrative stay already going against them about Zinnis. And I don't, and you're right about a lot of things, Ben,

but you're right about what I think they're going to do about fleshing out habeas corpus, do process steps. Again, not great on emergency applications with one page decisions. Usually you want that in 30, 40 pages that you and I can ruminate over and figure out what they mean. It's hard in two paragraphs, but that's what they're going to do. And here, the question is, and this is back to you, Ben, the question is, are they going to clarify their one paragraph ruling, giving Judge Zinnis direction saying, you got this, you're right on due process, you're right on facilitate about how she's moving towards contempt in the Trump administration.

What do you think the Supremes do about Zinnis? Either they do nothing, we don't have jurisdiction, it's too early, sorry, nothing needs clarification, we were clear in our order, or they do something. What do you think? I think at this stage they do nothing. I think that her order of what she's requiring them to do to comply with facilitate. She ordered expedited aggressive discovery over a two week period to let us know the steps you're taking to facilitate. I think that there will then be another order right late April that will be the one that will probably find the Trump regime in contempt there. There will be a further order and then that will end up going to the Supreme Court once it's

clear that no steps have been taken for facilitation. When we come back, we up going to the Supreme Court once it's clear that no steps have been taken for facilitation. When we come back, we're gonna talk about Judge Boesberg finding the Trump regime in criminal contempt and saying, give us the list of the lawyers, the administration officials who were okay with violating my court order, because I'm gonna hold them in criminal contempt.

And if the DOJ doesn't prosecute I'm gonna have a special counsel prosecuted and popak as you know sure the Trump DO the Trump could eventually Pardon these people but they're gonna lose their look This is exactly what you and I said would happen if you are convicted of a crime you lose your legal license, too so even if the Trump regime were to pardon some of these people who a special counsel criminally prosecutes, these people are gonna be these lawyers and these you know state department officials and ICE officials who are aiding and abetting Trump, they don't have absolute immunity and they are going to be criminally prosecuted. They're gonna be viewed as criminals on

their record. And that's gonna go beyond what Trump says. I mean, beyond Trump being in office. I did a whole hot take on Trump throwing DOJ lawyers under the bus, right? Trump was asked about, well, what's gonna happen with the lawyers and contempt? And Trump was like, that's not me, ask the lawyers.

And I think that's part of the reason why, as we talked about earlier, someone even like an ensign who works at the Trump DOJ said, look, we're going to do the habeas corpus proceedings, whether he was being lying or whether he was being authentic about it. I think it actually is, at least will make some of these lawyers think, am I going to be, will make some of these lawyers think am I going to be you know is Trump gonna take care of me if I get criminally prosecuted for aiding and abetting his crimes where he's got immunity and I don't have immunity so I want to talk about that I want to read from this fact sheet though popak that I wrote and this is what I just said here are the undisputed facts about abrago Garcia

I just think it's important just just to list these in this order undisputed facts about Abrego Garcia. I just think it's important just to list these in this order. Undisputed. Supreme Court ruled 9-0 he was improperly sent to El Salvador and to facilitate his return. The Trump DOJ admits Abrego was sent in error to El Salvador. Abrego was given a work permit in 2019 during the first Trump administration. He checked in annually with ICE. Four, the 2019 immigration ruling says he can't be deported to El Salvador. Five, his paperwork says he had no criminal history. Six, there was a double hearsay accusation by a disgraced cop back in 2019 that Abrego has an MS-13 affiliation and on that basis the immigration judge said Abrego can be deported, just not to El Salvador.

Still, he was viewed as being not a criminal, so he was given a work permit where you need extensive background checks to get one. Whether Abrego is good or bad, he is entitled to due process in the United States. El Salvador has facilitated the return of other people back to the United States before. The United States frequently extradites non-citizens. It alleges to be the worst drug dealers and gang members in the

world to have trials in the U.S. and to serve sentences, including life sentences in U.S. prisons and 10. If there is evidence of a brego committing crimes, he should be held accountable once that evidence is presented and the findings of criminal conduct takes place. I don't know how you argue outside of that as as Judge Wilkinson said, it's actually relatively simple. Let's talk about that and more popak. We got to take our last quick break. Let's talk about Judge Boasberg's contempt. And then let's talk about the Supreme Court setting those two oral arguments in May. May is going shape up I think to be the Supreme Court

either saying dictator or not dictator and they've scheduled May 15th to hear these two big cases. Birthright citizenship, nationwide injunctions and then also the cases that we're talking about now are gonna be in May, and I think the Supreme Court gave Trump a face saving way out in the 9-0, and now I think they're gonna start getting a little more excoriating in the weeks and months to come. Let's take our last quick break of the show. A reminder, subscribe to Michael Popak's YouTube channel,

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1877-POPOC-AF and the website, thepopocfirm.com. 1-877-POPOCK-AF and the website, thepopockfirm.com. We'll put the links up there for a moment. Go ahead. Take our last quick break of the show. When it comes to spending, sometimes it's out of sight, out of mind. That daily coffee habit, those streaming subscriptions, they add up fast without you even noticing.

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The discount codes for those sponsors are in the description below. Finally, Michael Popock, let's talk about what Judge Boesberg did in finding the Trump regime in criminal contempt, what that could actually mean in terms of its important implications. The DC circuits issued an administrative stay

temporarily pausing those contempt proceedings and what Judge Boesberg basically ordered, which is there's a way to purge the contempt. Let's talk about that and then let's get into those, the, you know, what the Supreme Court did in saying that it has those two big oral arguments, not on the shadow docket, on its actual docket. On its real docket.

And on that note, as a programming note, we are now committed on Legal AF to put up all the oral arguments that matter at the courts of appeal. That's all the ones we talked about today, the 4th, the 11th, the 2nd, the DC, wherever it may lie, the Court of International Trade, we'll talk about that another day, and the United States Supreme Court. Fortunately, federal, on the federal side, most of these courts are allowing audio

of the oral arguments. We just put up the one for the Gulf of America fight at the D.C. Court of Appeals for Associated Press, and we got it, with very little notice, because we decided to do it a little bit last minute, we had a great turnout of our community, our fellowship here on Midas Touch and on Legal AF for that. So we're going to be the home on Legal AF

of the live feeds of those oral arguments with a pregame and postgame as well. I'll do it sometimes with Dean Atal, and sometimes with other people. I just wanted to do that as a little bit of a programming. Self-promotion there for legal AF. Okay, so, you know, so many earth-shattering things. You know, we're running out of adjectives

to describe events concerning Donald Trump. That's what happens when you send a twice-impeached, multiply-indicted, once-convicted guy to be the president of the United States. You're going to set history and not in a good way. And so now I thought, you know, we could have just done a whole show about, you know, the late night emergency administrative stay by the United States Supreme Court. We can just do one whole show on these things.

And when we heard three days ago that Boesberg, the judge in DC, not just the judge, the chief judge, former roommate in law school for Justice Kavanaugh, good friend of Justice Roberts, middle of the road, respected by both sides of the aisle, that chief judge Boesberg, that he had started the criminal contempt process by a finding

of probable cause that the Trump administration and its Department of Justice and others were in criminal contempt for violating his order a month ago, that would that, it's hard to believe it was four Saturdays ago, to ground and return any planes on the way to El Salvador because he had ruled that they had violated the Administrative Procedures Act, they violated the Alien Enemies Act, they violated the Due Process, the Fifth Amendment, whatever it was, they needed to be grounded. Now, subsequently, because some people that follow Legal AF very, very closely, we have a great student body that's been in class for five years, they might be thinking, well, wasn't the order that he was enforcing ultimately vacated or changed in a way by the Supreme Court and you'd be right.

Three weeks after that, two weeks after that, United States Supreme Court said you're right on the substance, you're wrong on the procedure, it's not for you in DC, it's really the habeas corpus procedure that needs to be used wherever these people are before they are deported and removed. Sorry, 250 that's already in Seacat in El Salvador, but the ones that haven't left yet, you get due process and habeas corpus, but not in DC, why are we in DC?

So that was right. At the time we were considering, does that divestment of jurisdiction over the case? No, because the judge has inherent authority. But for that order was vacated or changed, it was an enforceable on the books order of a federal judge. And you can't violate that order because you think, well, I'm going to appeal it.

Well, I might win. Well, maybe I'll get a stay. Until you do, you don't. Until you do, well, I'm going to appeal it. Well, I might win. Well, maybe I'll get a stay. Until you do, you don't. Until you do, you comply. And that is, there's case law in that. No man can be his own judge. And so when the Trump administration had an order, ground, wheels down, don't fly those two planes,

the judge determined after a series of evidentiary hearings and getting the facts provided to him by the lawyers on the other side, that there were at least two planes that went to El Salvador in violation of his order. Now they keep arguing, well, it was 637 versus 7 p.m. and your order was oral, but then it was written and we were confused, like that's not gonna work.

None of that's gonna work. And so the judge held a, entertained a motion for contempt. Now he had two choices there. I wanna hear from you later why you think he went the criminal route. He could have done civil contempt, which he doesn't even need a prosecutor for. And it could end in jail, just like criminal contempt.

And it's all within his own wheelhouse. The advantage of civil contempt, which he's not currently contemplating, is that the result of the civil contempt finding is not necessarily pardonable, even though it ends up in jail, very interesting. But he went criminal contempt, because he thinks the facts were just so egregious.

So in that role, the federal judge, he has a role and then prosecutors have a role. The judge has a role to determine whether probable cause, it's sort of like he's the indicting prosecutor to start, sort of like the information or indictment process is really under the judge and he found it. He says, you willfully violated. I don't know exactly who. I'm going to get to the bottom of that.

You're going to tell me. I love that. You're going to tell me who the contenders are, the people that violated, next week. In the meantime, you have a choice. You can purge the contempt that I have found by getting those two plain loads back. Good luck. We know what the Trump administration's view is of one guy,

of Braco Garcia. You think they're bringing home another 100 from the same jail? They're not. So he gave them a choice, that, or you tell me who violated my order, and then I'll move to the next phase and I'll refer for prosecution.

Trump didn't like all of that, obviously, including the potential that a private lawyer, and I volunteer you, Ben, and I know you'll volunteer me to be that private lawyer, to be a prosecutor, and if we're not available, Jack Smith's not doing anything right now to prosecute the case, because we know the Champaign-Bondy

ain't prosecuting her boss or herself. So that ain't happening. So he was about to do that. We were moving inexorably towards that dark place. And so they ran to the DC Court of Appeals, the Court of Appeals that sits over DC. And when I saw the panel poll, the random three, you know, I like, I wasn't happy with it.

So you've got this three judge panel, Katzis, who almost invariably sides with Donald Trump, Rea, who I described, and then Pallard. And I like her. She's Obama. And she's really smart. She's the smartest of the three. And I thought, oh, it's going to have to be for the substance merits of the appeal It's gonna have to be Pilar trying to pull rail over with her because I think Katz's is a foregone conclusion I think she is too and then lo and behold nobody asked for a stay

Nobody asked for the stay of next Wednesday's deadline and they they came out yesterday or the date Yeah, David for yesterday with a order next Wednesday's deadline. And they came out yesterday, or the day before yesterday, with a order two to one to issue a stay, making a point of saying it's just a stay, it's just so we get briefing, it doesn't mean we prejudge the case, it doesn't go to the merits. Yeah, sure it doesn't.

And Pollard dropped a footnote and said, yeah, I'm not in favor of this. This is, I did not vote for this. We don't even have jurisdiction. We haven't even seen the appellate briefs yet. This is just a judge moving towards a potential referral on contempt to enforce their own orders. What are we appealing and why are we intervening with our jurisdiction in issuing a stay? We should not. But they have. And now from there, they're asking for a brief at some point. They've set a briefing schedule,

the same Wednesday deadline, which now the ACLU and all have to file their brief. And they're gonna make a decision. But I'm just managing expectations. I don't like the lineup. I've been surprised occasionally, and you and I, I don't like the lineup. I've been surprised occasionally and you and I, I don't know, one out of 10 on a hand have reported and commentated over the last four years about shocking news. A Trump-appointed judge ruled

against Donald Trump. Could it happen? It could. Do I think it's going to happen here? I don't. What do you think is going to happen with the DC Court of Appeals? You know, I think that they'll go more along the lines of what Judge Wilkinson did. I think that they'll hear from Trump, I mean, Trump's side of the argument. I think they'll say it's probably premature for them to make a ruling at this point. And so I think that they'll end up punting it back. And then once a full record on the contempt is actually made, I think then you'll see the ruling, you know, and, and, and, and I guess the, you know, one of the issue is, is that if the Supreme Court said you don't have jurisdiction to begin with, how is your underlying order right to it?

Right. That's what I thought. I was like, no protunk, not effective. How is your underlying order? But at the end of the day, the order was the order, the order was violated, you had jurisdiction to make that initial order, and it was not for the Trump regime to say, we're not following that order at this stage. So that becomes the issue that'll be decided,

and we'll go from there. Now, criminal contempt will rear its head again, in Maryland for sure. I mean, I think with Judge Zinnis. And even if Judge Boesberg gets overruled, and now everybody gets it now. Ah, Judge Boesberg, he's the DC federal judge. Judge Zinnis, she's the Maryland federal judge.

Texas has their own federal courts.. Texas has their own federal courts. Each state has their own federal courts. They all have their court of appeals that sit above them. Ultimately, it's multiple states have a circuit court of appeals that sits above them. The Supreme Court sits above them all. Judge Boasberg though gave, I think, the outline to Judge Zinnis, not that she needed it,

about what the remedy can look like. And I think that's what Judge Zinnis is setting up for, a criminal contempt against the lawyers involved there. Let's talk briefly, Michael Popak, very briefly about just the Supreme Court setting these oral arguments and when they're taking place. The two biggies on May 15th will have them both live on the Legal AF channel, on the Might is Touch channel.

Maybe we'll arm wrestle over whether it goes both or whether we give the Legal AF channel the exclusive, you know, we could have that conversation. Maybe we'll just give it to legal AF. It's all good. You come on legal AF and do it with me there. So I see where Pope Pox is. We'll talk about whether it goes on both. You know, who knows? Supreme Court moves. So the birthright citizenship case, Donald Trump wants to overturn birthright citizenship. Multiple cases where the district courts have stayed

or stopped Donald Trump from unilaterally declaring birthright citizenship as being unconstitutional, even though it's written into the Constitution. That goes to the United States Supreme Court. I mean, my view is the Supreme Court And we'll hear our oral argument on May 15th. It's it should be pretty clear that birthright citizenship is in the Constitution I think the Supreme Court is Bringing that case up to smack Trump down. I could be naive

the Supreme Court tends to always let us down, but it seems like at least an issue where Justice Roberts gave the warning in December in his annual report about compliance with court orders and things like this. I view this as, and again, maybe very naively, and so I'll admit it could be naïve, it could be naïvety, but given all of these events in the Supreme Court's ruling that we just saw at 1 a.m., I think on these easier questions

like birthright citizenship, the Supreme Court's gonna use it to, you know, assert a little bit more authority on an easy one. And then on the nationwide injunctions, I don't know how they're gonna rule, but they set a hearing on whether nationwide injunctions are valid or not. It should be noted that the Trump regime relied

on nationwide injunctions to derail the Biden administration's efforts to do things like restore people's rights, protect women's reproductive rights, cancel student debt. The Trump regime would run to a Northern District of Texas judge, it issue a nationwide injunction. Now that the levers, now that the power has shifted, now the Republicans are against the very tool that they use throughout the Biden regime. But that's just who the Republicans are I mean for them, it's all it's all games

But Popeye and often backfires for them was assume they win this, you know and Trump's Uses this to inflict more project 2025 stuff The Democrats win in the midterms the Democrats win in the midterms, the Democrats win in 2028. People look back at the disaster that Trump's caused on the economy and Musk and we go, we're never going back. At the end of the day, if you can't have crazy Trump judges issue nationwide injunctions in a future administration of Democrats or pro-democracy people,

if you have a long-term perspective of it, you can see a world where this could ultimately backfire for them even if they get what they want. And the ACLU, all of these legal groups, other than the firms that have like tapped out and bent the knee and now they're all internally fighting. Because they're like, but Trump's now telling us to do things that we didn't say in the deal. Yeah. When you give into an extortionist, they go and take more from you big firms that kiss the ring.

But anyway, the broader point I'm making is a lot of great legal talent on the pro-democracy side that upholds the law, a lot of bad legal talent on the Trump regime side, like idiot lawyers, bad lawyers, Alina Abba type people. So, ultimately, if you don't have nationwide injunctions, but you have the ability to file in the different districts very quickly, and then go right to the Supreme Court, as we saw the ACLU do here, it's an important one, Popak, but to me, it's not a... I don't rank it with birthright citizenship.

But I agree with you. I think on the nationwide injunction, you hear Donald Trump against it, but then I heard him complaining about, well, we're gonna have to have 500,000 habeas corpus's petitions all around because of Sleepy, we're back to Sleepy Joe again. Sleepy Joe Biden, we have to have 500,000. I was like, I don't know, you could have one class action in DC, wouldn't that be a lot easier for everybody? And then get

to this, you're gonna get to the Supreme Court one way or the other, whether it's a conflict between various jurisdictions or districts or it's a class action, you're gonna get there one way or the other. I don't understand the, and I think you're, well, what the rigmarole is about in the other than it's a Project 2025 thing, because they used it very successfully, as you pointed out,

to tie up the Biden administration and nots and some key issues. And they had no problem doing the Texas two step, doing Northern District of Texas, let's get Kaz Merrick. He's the only judge there and we'll form an organization on doctors for Hippocratic oath that's never existed before and we'll incorporate them in Abilene, Texas and then Ramarillo, Texas and then we'll file it

with Kaz Merrick and then we'll go to the Fifth Circuit and then we'll go to the Supreme Circuit. Well, I mean, what was wrong with that? And then when we do it, it's like, oh, did nationwide injunctions you say? We don't allow that anymore. Now the Supreme Court level, Gorsuch doesn't like nationwide injunctions,

and he's got at least two votes for that. But look at when you don't have them. I don't even understand birthright citizenship and the nationwide injunction problem when you put the two things together. Because what are you trying to tell me? That the judge in California who issued a nationwide injunction,

he had a limit it to the state of California. So if you're lucky enough to be born there, you're a US citizen, but if you're not in one of these other states, you're not, you have to have nationwide injunctions on key constitutional precepts. I don't understand how you wouldn't have that. And we're watching the problem

with no nationwide injunctions play out in our first segment today about the removal of these Venezuelans to El Salvador. Southern District, they're grounded. But Northern District, yeah, they had to run the Supreme Court. Colorado, it's like, seriously? Let's get the issues teed up. Let's get it up to a court of appeals.

Let's get it over to a Supreme Court. And if you think you can win, the better person's argument is going to win, depending upon how you're counting the votes on the United States Supreme Court. So this gamesmanship, you know, of venue, venue forum shopping, which the Republicans have been masterful at, although we're doing it too.

The Democrats, the moderates are doing it too. Of course, we're following all our cases in California and the New England, the original 13 colonies and DC, and we're staying away from Florida and Texas and Louisiana and all those places. So, you know, as I was just in court the other day in a hearing, and the judge used a phrase I hadn't heard

but I understood immediately. He said, it's the goose gander problem. You got a goose gander problem. Yeah, it's what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And why they don't want to, we're going to have the rate we're going. The lamest of lame duck presidents in Donald Trump at the midterm, I seriously believe that.

I think these things that are happening now, these cosmic F-ups in the first 80 days, which you and I haven't even cataloged yet, but we have in separate places, that will see, is searing and the economy being trashed is seared into the brain of voters at the midterm, which will just be a referendum about Trump. Forget, there's no Kamala, no sleepy Joe.

It's Trump up or down, R or D. That's it. And he's going to lose badly at the rate he's going. And we're going to make sure that happens here with the community and fellowship that we've created. At the same time, the presidency, I mean, I mean, Democrats have done a lot of stupid things in their life. But if they lose this presidency

off of this administration, wow. So if they get the presidency back, you tell me the Republicans don't want nationwide injunctions to drive President Phil in the blank crazy? They do, that's that. Birthright citizenship, I don't know. Call me cock-eyed optimist, popium,

whatever people accuse me of peddling. I just don't see the Supreme Court getting five votes to change the U.S. Constitution from an interpretive standpoint about subject to the jurisdiction thereof. I'm using Ben's voice. I don't know why. And twist that out of contortion, the shape and recognition, and make that mean, well, you know, you're here, you know,

your mother or your father. And even though you're born in a birthing center in America, you're not an American, even though the 14th Amendment says you are. I just don't see this Supreme Court writing that as their obituary. Well, I think that was a great impression of me. I would encourage you to keep on doing that impression.

Why am I doing that? I think it's a, I was wondering, I was like, is that me over there speaking? Okay, we covered a lot. It was very heavy on immigration, but I thought we also covered jurisdiction, which is an important role for all of these cases so that you understand, oh, got it, I understand,

district court judge, court Appeals, Supreme Court, how this all fits together, and of course, we'll be covering all of this, all of the developments on the Legal AF YouTube channel. Also, we do legal takes on the Midas Touch channel, but we wanna make sure that we hit every legal issue from every angle, and Michael Popok has put together an all-star team of not just Popok, but the top lawyers in the country,

some of the people who are behind a lot of these big cases, they're all on the Legal AF YouTube channel every single day, cranking out hot takes. And I've got some big interviews coming up this next week with some of the key strategists behind all of this litigation. So excited to share that with you. Also, if you've been injured

or you know someone who's been injured in a catastrophic type of situation, truck accidents, car accidents, medical malpractice, negligence, sexual assault, abuse, Michael Popak's new law firm handling catastrophic injury cases. So if you were looking for a lawyer, consultation is free.

Lots of people were asking Popok to do this. Popok left his other, like, he started his own new firm to do specifically this, and it's off to a great start. Popok, tell us where we can find you. Sure, easy. I made it easy on everybody, including me. 1877POPOCHAF is the phone number

and the website is www.thepopokfirm and Popok is P-O-P-O-K. Thank you everybody so much for watching this episode of Legal AF. We'll see you next time. Hit subscribe, subscribe to the Legal AF audio podcast as well, leave a five star review there so all those Rogan people don't bomb it

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