Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Legal AF Full Episode 4/23/2025

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Michael Popok and Karen Friedman Agnifilo on the top rated Legal AF podcast, discuss: Judge Xinis' scathing new order against Trump putting his Administration well on the way to another contempt finding; the Supreme Court and 4th Circuit rulings rocking Trump's world as he reconsiders his losing fight with Courts and the Supreme Court because the public is telling him he's a loser in polling; Trump's pathetically weak attacks on NY AG Leticia James as she opens another investigation about him; more fair minded prosecutors quit the DOJ and tell off the Trump Administration on the way out; law firms are winning against Trump in the courtroom; and so much more at the intersection of law and politics. Support Our Sponsors: Vessi: Take the first step toward adventure with Vessi. Visit https://vessi.com/LEGALAF to keep your travels comfortable and dry. Explore confidently and enjoy 15% off your first pair at checkout! Lume: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with Lume deodorant and get $5 off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code legalaf at https://LumeDeodorant.com! #lumepod Fatty 15: Get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to https://fatty15.com/LEGALAF and using code LEGALAF at checkout. Remi: Save your smile and your bank account with Remi! Get up to 50% off your custom-fit mouth guard at https://ShopRemi.com/LEGALAF today! Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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We got to talk about a number of things, Karen. Of course, we've got the Armando Abrego Garcia update. Judge Zinnis threw the book at the Trump administration and reminded the lawyers there that they are also under her jurisdiction in a new discovery order on the way to contempt. The clock is at about 11.50 PM before it strikes midnight for another contempt finding by another federal judge against the Trump administration related to how they're handling the return of, or not handling the return of Armando Abrego Garcia.

We had a 1 a.m., and this is sort of rock the world of the Trump administration. This was a terrible week for them, no matter what you see in their social media postings or with Carolyn LeVette, their press secretary, or with Donald Trump, you know, wherever he is, this was a terrible rock their world week for them in courts. 1 a.m. Supreme Court, I mean, they don't issue orders

unless they're trying to save somebody from the death penalty for being like lethally injected at 1 a.m. That was a miscalculation by the Trump administration because 7 to 2, the Supreme Court made a ruling that said that Donald Trump needed to stop his deportations and sending people to El Salvador until they get their minds around the appeal. I think they stepped out of, they didn't even have jurisdiction to do that, but there's a deep skepticism which is set in at the Supreme Court. And now Donald Trump has seen that, oh crap, we're losing the Supreme Court.

He needs five votes for all of his crazy things. So now the worm has started to turn and in a new thing that I don't think the Trump administration thought was going to see the light of day, they have said that they have started the diplomatic negotiations to try to get Abrego Garcia back. This 1 a.m. case in another matter involving Venezuelans and removal to El Salvador has rocked Donald Trump's world. We're going to talk about it. And rocked jurisprudence.

I mean, that combined with the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals led by Judge Wilkinson just a couple days before that, that back to back bookends, that is not with the Department of Justice and Donald Trump wanted to see and they're starting to reverse course as far as I can see as a result. Now we got an update in New York, who better to do that with than my podcast partner Karen Freeman-Iknifilo.

We're gonna talk about Letitia James. She comes out with, I'm looking into insider trading related to the tariff stop and start. And they fire back with, the Trump administration is, we're looking at whether you committed mortgage fraud. All right, well, we'll break all that down. And Letitia James has already come back, defended herself related to that. It looked retaliatory to me. And then lastly, speaking of retaliatory, we got law firms who have basically, the world is divided into two parts here. And we got the law firms who are generally

litigation trial-based law firms where they make their money and their reputation who are fighting back strongly against the Trump administration and they're winning. That would be Jenner and Block, Wilmer Hale, Perkins Coy. And they've now been joined, you know, finally, our profession got off the mat and started to decide which side they're on. 500 law firms filed an advocacy brief in support of Perkins Coy and Jenner and Block

and the rest, 400 former federal judges have done the same thing in these advocates briefs. So we got two cases, one in front of Judge Barrel Howell, who Donald Trump lost his mind over again, and Judge Richard Leon in the district courthouse in Washington, who had both that hearings in different cases, one for Wilmer Hale, one for Perkins Coy, but it went terribly for the Trump administration based on reports from inside the room about whether the blacklist or blacklisting

of these law firms by Donald Trump by declaring and proclaiming in an executive order that he was going to cut off all ability for these law firms to basically ply their trade, to represent clients in front of federal agencies, to represent clients in front of federal courts, to go into federal buildings, cut off all contracts that the government may have had with these people. For some of these law firms, it is devastating. It is actually the very definition of irreparable harm.

It could put these firms out of business. And the first two that we're seeing are related to the Russia investigation in Mueller. Wilmer Hale, I think think had represented people related to that. And I think, I don't know if Jack Smith went there off to look it up during a quick break. But they're seen as an enemy of Donald Trump as is Perkins Coy who's, Donald Trump thinks is responsible for the Steele dossier

because a guy named Sussman and a guy named Mark Elias who used to work at Perkins Coy, you know, may have submitted that to the FBI as part of representing Hillary Clinton. Oh, it's complicated, but it's not complicated to the judges because they had some choice words for the Trump administration. Let's bring on Karen.

Let's get into our midweek episode. Hi, Karen. How are you, Popok? I see you're back home. I'm back home, yeah. The termites had one last party dance, and then we killed them all. And we just had to.

So it was either them or us, and we chose us. So that was that, and now we're back in our home. And I know that you're not feeling your tip-top tip-top today, but we're rain or shine, man. We're gonna put this show on, right? Absolutely, always. Always. Can know, rain or shine, man. We're gonna put this show on, right? Absolutely, always, always. Can't miss it. Yeah, great.

All right, so let's start with our, you and I didn't get to talk about the Armando Abrego Garcia. We have this amazing, I mean, seriously, we should use it as a teaching tool for lawyers on how to write powerfully, eloquently in seven pages or less. It would take most judges, other than Harvey Wilkinson, 50, 60 pages, right, Karen, to do what he accomplished in seven or eight at the Fourth Circuit supporting Judge Zinnis about the Armando Abrego.

But it went beyond that. And we'll talk, well, when you and I are bouncing it back and forth, it went beyond that, because it seems to have gotten in to that hard little head of Donald Trump and his administration, that if they lost a judge like Harvey Wilkinson and a revered icon of federalists, of federalism, a rock-rib Republican, an arch conservative,

if they've lost him, then, you know, that's not great for the positions they're taking before all these federal judges. And they seem to have turned a little bit. But why don't you dive into that. We can talk about what Judge Zinnis did just late yesterday with her enter new order issue today about how the government is effing around with her in the Armando Abrego

Garcia case. Yeah. So district court judge Zinnis is very frustrated because if you remember, she ordered expedited discovery in this case, meaning you're going to take depositions. We're going to figure out what happened, who did what, why, interrogatories, all that kind of stuff. And she basically in another short order, I think it was seven or eight pages, she said that the Trump administration is not

acting in good faith and that this expedited fact finding process for Abrego Garcia was intentional noncompliance with their obligation to produce information. I mean, those are fighting words to have a judge say that. So they she issues this eight page order, extremely critical of how the DOJ has been navigating this whole process. And she's basically going after them and saying, look, you're not complying with the order to, quote, facilitate his return, and that's the term of art here,

to facilitate his return from El Salvador. A couple of quotes that I'm pulling out of the order. So, quote, for weeks the defendants have sought refuge behind vague and unsubstantiated assertions of privilege, using them as a shield of obstruction and to obstruct discovery and evade compliance with the court orders. Defendants have known at least since last week that this court requires specific legal

and factual showings to support any claim of privilege, yet they've continued to rely on boilerplate assertions that ends now. They're asserting some vague kind of government privilege, but they're not explaining it because there is no such thing as a government, just a vague government privilege. So she ordered them and said,

look, you have to provide me with more specific legal and factual basis for why you're invoking this vague privilege in order to avoid providing any written discovery to a Brega Garcia's attorneys that they've been seeking. And so, you know, she reiterates that she's expressly warned defendants and the counsel to adhere to this, these discovery obligations. Don't just give boilerplate answers, which people often do in interrogatories.

You know, you admit you deny or whatever it is. You just, you really kind of just put these boilerplate answers. She wants real substantive answers. And she's saying things like this is a willful refusal to comply with this court's discovery order. I mean, those are very, very, very strong words for a federal judge. And this is very, this is just unbelievable,

I think what she's setting up here. And you've said it a couple of times that this is a complete setup for holding somebody in contempt. But yeah, it's, dredges are getting sick and tired of this farce that's going on with Abrego Garcia, right? You've got, you've got, you've got, the Supreme Court's basically saying you've got

to facilitate his return back. And then you've got Stephen Miller with the New York Times article crossing out, you know, the, he basically writes in red pen, you know, over the title, he's not coming back, you know, he kind of corrects the, he corrects what he says is the New York Times, the New York Times title of the article about it. And they're just basically giving the middle finger

to the courts, to all the courts, including the Supreme Court and everywhere in between. And Judge Zinnis is just, she's had it, and she's not, she's absolutely not, she's not going to have it much longer. So, you know, she basically, again, says, calls what the government's doing a false premise. You know, she's accusing them of lying.

And it's, she says the defendants and their counsel will know that the falsehood lies not in any supposed premise, but in their continued mischaracterization of the Supreme Court's order. That order made clear that the court properly required the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador and to assure that his case is handled as it would have been

had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador. And this is, you know, the interesting thing about all of this is there's two different laws that they could send him under, kind of a criminal law under the Alien Enemies Act, which is this old timey 1800s law that basically they Enemies Act, which is this old timey 1800s law that basically they used to deport certain people to secote this El Salvadoran prison.

And then there's just good old fashioned immigration law that also you use to, that they're using to deport people as well. But when you're on the soil, you have certain constitutional rights. You have the right, for example, to not have cruel and unusual punishment. So if he's relying on the Alien Enemies Act, think of an extreme example. Could he send somebody under the Alien Enemies Act

that he's removing under the statute, sending them to jail in say, you know, a war torn country. Say he's going to send them to the Taliban. You know, can he do that? No, that would be considered cruel and unusual punishment. He's not there. They're not being afforded their due process rights,

which you get in this country. And you're starting to get really sharp language from judges, whether it's Wilkinson, Zinnis, or the Supreme Court itself, about how the Constitution matters, rights matter. You can't just do that. You can't just sweep people up and send them away without any semblance of due process.

And what you certainly can't do is obstruct in light of the court about it. And that's what's happening. That's what's being set up here. This is either going to come to some kind of showdown where people are held in contempt and we see whether the Trump administration will defy court orders or whether he'll capitulate.

And you gave a hot take earlier today, Popak, where you said in one of the interrogatories, you thought that they buried in there something that seems to suggest that they're taking the diplomatic route. Yeah, exactly. So I'll start with that. It wasn't supposed to see the light of day,

but because they're screwing around with discovery with the judge, the other side filed their responses, the government's responses to interrogatories, questions and answers under oath in writing. And in there, in the response interrogatory number one, this is that timeline that we're laying out here, right? It's the Fourth Circuit on the 17th of April rules strongly against Donald Trump, led by Judge Wilkinson.

I'll read to you from passages there. We said at the time, how are they gonna by Judge Wilkinson. I'll read to you from passages there. We said at the time, how are they going to take on Wilkinson? He's not a leftist, he's not a fascist, he's not a Marxist, he's not an activist, he's not a left wing, he's not corrupt. He's all the opposite of all those things. He actually wrote a book against judicial activism that basically focuses

on judicial humility. So he's the opposite. He's on the Mount Rushmore of the Federalist Society. So what were they going to do with him calling out the Trump administration? And then the next day, we saw what I thought was the response. And you did too, which was basically a Stephen Miller

created social media post on the White House official account that had the New York Times headline with the, yeah, yeah, he's never coming back, MS-13. We're like, oh, well, that's the way to respond to Wilkinson. And I don't think this, there it is, thank you. And I don't think the Supreme Court, that's on the, that's not in Donald Trump's private truth, whatever, that's on the White House FN social media platform.

And so I don't think the Supreme Court appreciated that. I know they didn't. I don't think they appreciated what it looks to be an insult to Judge Wilkinson, who's very highly regarded. A lot of the people on the Supreme Court either clerked for him or clerked for somebody off of him. They didn't appreciate that.

And I thought, is Wilkinson even gonna get through to this administration? And then it showed up, right? But in secret, in public, Donald Trump bashing away, bashing away at Zittes, the judge, bashing away at the Supreme Court. You're making me keep criminals here. We can't give everybody due process.

I don't take too long before they go to jail. I mean, it's literally he's like an infant in a high chair about our bedrock constitutional principles. So he's doing all that in public. And then this but what's failing is he loses badly with Wilkinson. He then after that, that's on Wednesday or Thursday, on Saturday morning, we all wake up to our phones blowing up, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, one a.m. Supreme Court, I'm thinking what happened? They pulled the plug on somebody in a death penalty?

No, they make a ruling, probably without jurisdiction, to block the deportation of people in Northern District of Texas because they don't trust the Trump administration. And even Alito was like, well, I don't think we should have done it at one o'clock in the morning. However, however, Trump administration, you better abide by our rulings. So even he's saying that

because they're thinking he's not going to. So you got these bookends of Wilkinson and then the Supreme Court at 1 a.m. and they never rule at 1 a.m. All right, I joke that you don't see 50 and 60 and 70 year olds moving this fast except in the senior Olympics I mean that's quick for the Supreme Court right so they got that and they're sitting on it right now by the way five days have gone by almost a week's gone by they haven't ruled they could have ruled they may rule it will update you on on legal AF and all of

that but so you got those two things going on. Then they've decided to put their foot to the gas and try to smear Abrego Garcia and his family in the court of public opinion from the bully pulpit of the United States of America. So he wears a Chicago Bulls jersey. He will. There was a confidential informant who said he was a member of a gang, okay.

What else he got? Oh, he's a wife, Peter. Well, let's take a look at that document. Okay, so the wife filed for a restraining order. Sounds like it's something that's important, but something within their marriage. What else he got? Oh, he's a potential human trafficker.

That's the latest one. Why? He had seven people in the car. God forbid you bring your seven buddies home after a party and now you're a human trafficker. That's the latest one. Why? He had seven people in the car. God forbid you bring your seven buddies home after a party and now you're a human trafficker. So that failed because the public opinion is not turning against it and the Democrats know it. They're marching down like ants at a picnic down to El Salvador one at a time, Gori Booker, Van Hollen

and the rest to go visit this guy. I think the more they visit him and focus attention on him, and he's already been moved to a new prison, which I was like, oh, that's interesting. They moved him out of the CICOT, and now he's somewhere else? And then that's public, right? So that's not working. Rock our world with the two decisions, and now what?

Here, let me read this to the audience. I think I can grab it quick enough. This is in response to an interrogatory. And in the interrogatory, which I might have to paraphrase, here it is, I was saying, if I couldn't find it quick enough. I've looked at it so much today, it's like dog-eared. But here's, I'll tell you what it says.

In response to, what steps are you taking? This is what they said, Karen. They said, until the Fourth Circuit, that's the Wilkinson ruling that I'll read to you from, until they clarified what the word facilitate means, I'm like, what is this, a spelling bee? Use it in a sentence? Okay, facilitate his release from an El Salvador prison.

Which word in there are you not getting? We thought it meant domestic facilitation. Like that doesn't even pass even the straight face that's for this administration. So under that theory, if Armando Garcia breaks out of jail, you know, like a prison break, and he just shows up like on a raft at a port or he's stowaway on a plane, then they'll let him in.

I mean, they'll deport him again to someplace not named El Salvador, but they'll let him in. I mean, they'll deport him again to someplace not named El Salvador, but they'll let him in. But that's all we have to do. So they said until the Fourth Circuit clarified what facilitate meant, we thought it meant this. But now that they've clarified, we are in discussions, diplomatic discussions with El Salvador for the possible return. But we can't tell you what they are, very sensitive.

Now the last time they said something like that was in open court when Drew Ensign said it in advance of the dictator of El Salvador arriving to the Oval Office on Monday, a week ago on Monday. Where they said, well, you know, Monday, it's going to be, two presidents are going to be meeting, you know, it's a bilateral summit. Can't really, well, we'll see what happens.

Well, we know what happened. It was a chuckle fest, except the man's life is at stake. You know, with the pitch and catch, well, I wouldn't smuggle in a terrorist. Well, I wouldn't let you smuggle in a terrorist. Hey, how about taking some of our US citizens? Ho, ho, ho, I'll build more beds. And Stephen Miller, like the grim reaper,

standing in the background scripted the whole thing, along with Pam Bondi. Remember that whole thing? I never saw, I never saw a president, I mean so many things we haven't seen with Trump, who violates the solemnity of the Oval Office and shits on it more than Donald Trump. Let's show, let's bring everybody in. Who's in the hallway? Come on in. Everybody in. It's like a clown car filled with just 40 clowns that all pile out for this ridiculous staged Scripted show that they try to use in court and it didn't work So now they're either working behind the scenes like they've just basically told the other side and now that's gonna lead to deposition They're in depositions right now questions and answers under oath live and in person and you know, they're asking questions

Tell us about the diplomatic things you're doing. What are the phone calls you're making? You know, because no one can believe, Karen, that America, even under Trump, took people, paid a country six million dollars, dumped them off in a prison, and don't have a receipt for it, don't have a contract, don't have an agreement, don't have the ability to jointly control what happens to them, nobody believes that. And so their continued focus on that is backfiring for them.

And Donald Trump, who is a poll watcher, a cable news watcher, you know, and you can lobby the crap out of Donald Trump, he'll change his policies and positions based on who last talked to him. We just found out like Walmart and all these major companies just marched into the Oval Office today and said,

what are you doing on China? And it's cut it out. He freaked out and told his treasury secretary to back off on China and then the markets went sky high. So whoever gets to Donald Trump last, because he's a poll watcher and the polls are crappy for him. What do you think what do you think the next step is with a Braygo Garcia? You think we're gonna see this guy, I don't mean like out for dinner, I mean back in the United States before a federal judge. I think at a certain point Donald Trump is

gonna realize this is a really bad look for him because it makes him look weak. I mean if he can't say to El Salvadoran president, I mean, El Salvador is this teeny tiny little country, right? If he can't say to that president, bring that person back, he's weak. You know, he, look, he's already can't, he can't make the war in Ukraine go away like he said he would. He already hasn't released the Gaza hostages like he said he would. There's no Gaza Riviera again like he said he would. There's no Gaza Riviera, again, like he said he would.

He's not getting Greenland. Canada has no interest in becoming the 51st state. He keeps losing and looking weak, even though he tries to say he's strong. This is kind of a no-brainer. I don't know why he's dying on this hill, because I just think it makes him look totally weak and ineffective. And so we'll see. I mean, if he can't just ask for him back and get him back, then I think we're doomed because I think the reason people claim to like him is because he's strong.

But this is not strong to me. I like the way you struggle that together is I think you're exactly right. If Donald Trump worked for Donald Trump, he'd already be fired as a loser. Yeah. Right? Total loser. I mean, Hexsat's about to be shown. Have you ever seen the back door of the White House? Come this way, Pete.

I mean, he's getting shown out the back. I mean. I mean, talk about it. Talk about it. A train wreck. But we told, I mean, but again, who has sympathy for Donald, we certainly don't. But we told him, don't nominate him

We said don't you're gonna you're just gonna shove this guy through this public drunk The not my reporting this is reporting the sex abuser this guy who got run out of two organizations for mismanagement You're gonna put him in charge of the pentagon What are you thinking? And this is what happens when people are obscenely unqualified for the jobs they've been given. Oh, yeah. I was reading that there's a revolt in the Pentagon. I mean, people are just. Absolutely.

Yeah. There's going to be a military coup there to get rid of him because he just doesn't know what he's doing. I'm trying to have sacrificial lambs, but it's not working. Well, right. And we found, I did a hot take on a recently, we found out he's got three assigned babysitters. He runs all of our national security issues

past his wife, Jennifer. I mean, look, I'm all about a strong marriage. I'm not gonna, his wife, his brother, Phil, who's also on the taxpayer payroll at the Homeland Security, and he put his lawyer on the payroll. His lawyer, who you and I talked about at length during the Trump days in Mar-a-Lago, Tim Parlet-Torre, happens to be a Naval reservist, and he's found a way to be assigned, because he's the babysitter, to be assigned to the office of the head of the Pentagon, so he

can sit on all the meetings with his attorney. I've never seen this before, ever in my life. And as you said, we're watching all of these, all of these failures going on left, right and center. This is not that kind of show, but you've got the health, our chief health officer who's in the middle of a, autism is based on diet or is avoidable or whatever crazy non-scientific things he's saying

to scare the crap about autism. This is who he's chosen. So remember everybody, at the midterm, this is why the Democrats are now at a 12-point swing ahead of the Republicans in recent polling about the House and the Senate. It's totally flipped since the election. Before it was 51 or 52% Republican.

We want Republicans in charge of Congress. And now it's 52 or 53% Democrat. And that's, which is, if we can just hold our shit together, we will get him voted not out, but we will vote in a Congress that will hold this guy accountable, as opposed to the doormat that's currently occupying Congress. Right? Yeah. Well, let's hope. Let's hope.

Okay, he's showing... You know, he's doing a lot of damage fast, but I think people are starting to wake up and see this is... The emperor truly has no clothes here. It's gonna take a new president two full terms to fix all the damage Donald Trump has done. That's for sure, but we're gonna continue to report on it

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I think it's always been Wednesdays, I'm not really sure. But we're back and I want to pick up with New York where Karen is located and talk about kind of two stories. I'm sure we'll find a way to weave them together. One is Mayor Adams, well, the prosecutors for Mayor Adams have tendered the resignation in a stormy and in a noisy leave. And I want Karen to talk about that

because she's been a prosecutor in her life. Maybe you can tell the audience what you would have done if you were forced to drop an indictment that you believed in for political purposes. And then Letitia James, who's one of the sharpest knives out there in terms of leading the charge against Donald Trump from a position of attorney general, there's 22 Democratic attorney generals,

give or take, and they are doing the lion's share of the filings against the Trump administration around the country out of the 140 or 150 cases. Many of them are coming from some combination of the attorneys general and she's really first among equals. She's considered that highly about her abilities and her abilities to take down Donald Trump.

She still has as of right now in the recording, she has a 450 million, $500 million we're running with interest judgment against Donald Trump in New York for civil fraud. I mean, we're waiting for the first department to finally rule after seven months, but she took him down. And she's filed a number of these cases

and she's been successful. And after seeing the herky-jerky motion of the market, after Donald Trump slyly winked-winked, and after being lobbied by Jamie Dimon and other people on Wall Street to back off his worldwide tariffs. He then hit the brake on them and a lot of people made a lot of money including maybe people in Congress and maybe people in Donald

Trump's own family. And so Letitia James opened up an investigation about it because that you know manipulating the markets is a no-no unless you're unless you're Donald Trump and she has the power to do things that don't have pardon ability for Donald Trump. She's on the state side and Donald Trump seems to have retaliated against Letitia James. Why don't you pick it up from there, Karen? Yeah, interestingly, so insider trading I think is going to be hard to prove because of the tweet or the truth social posting that Donald Trump made that day,

right before he reversed the tariffs, he said, it's a good time to buy stocks. It's going to be hard to say that he was saving it just for insiders, for his close friends and family, as he basically told everybody to buy, right? Told everybody to buy stocks, and only people who follow him and believe in him probably did.

They made a lot of money. It's much more of a kind of a market manipulation type case, I think that she has against him, but we'll see where that goes. But he's been going, he was going to retaliate against her just because she has been going after him for years now. And so he made a criminal referral to Pam Bondi against Letitia James. And basically they're doing a colonoscopy on her entire life. And what have they found? They found really stupid, stupid stuff. Things like

40 years ago when she bought a house with her father, I guess there was some kind of typo or something on it that said or were handwritten on it, they checked the wrong box that said she was his spouse, not his daughter. And then, and then that house was sold and they used it to buy something else, but they're using that as some kind of example of fraud. And then she used it to buy a four family apartment unit, that's an investment property. And I guess the people who had it before her, filed it as a five family.

And the CFO says it's four family. She says, there's only four families in it. She runs it like a four family, whatever. And he's like, well, it was really five family and she's just trying to get favorable loans and pay less taxes. And I mean, they're really grasping at straws, trying to find errors from prior owners and paperwork filed by other people to try to pin it on her. And she's like, I got nothing to hide. But but he's really, really grasping at straws to go on his continuous revenge tour. And I'm not

surprised. Look weak back to your earlier point. How does this make him look strong? I agree. It really does. It makes him look weak. It makes him look exactly. It's like, that's the best you got. And also, and also that you're so petty, that you're so petty that it's all like you are now the leader of the free world. You've got the United States of America at your fingertips.

You have Congress. You have the Senate. You have the Supreme Court. You have all three branches of government. You could do, you could do such good if you wanted to. There is so much he could accomplish and others could accomplish with that type of power and control.

He's been told by the United States Supreme Court, go at it, you have total immunity, right? I mean, he literally has more power than probably any president in the history of this country at this moment. And what is he using his power for? He's using it to go after stupid, petty paperwork grievances against his rivals.

I mean, he just looks weak and pathetic, truly, to me. I'm just... I like your petty paperwork grievances. I'm gonna use that for my... But I agree with you. I mean, could you imagine, we talked about it here on Midas, kind of behind the scenes, like the hot stove league. Like, God, could you imagine if he actually used his powers

for good instead of for evil? Yeah, exactly. What would we be talking about? And by the way, he could be a hero. He could be a hero. Like, go be a hero. It's like if instead of Lex Luthor, Superman was in charge of the United States.

Could you imagine the good he'd be doing with all of these superpowers? But this is what happens when a petty, addle-brained, demented, revengeful. Well, like, why does he have such thin skin, is my question. No, but he always has since he was a young adult. I mean, you gotta have thick skin.

Put on your big boy pants, you know? And just take it. He's been busy crapping in his big boy pants most of his career. I mean, you got to have thick skin. Put on your big boy pants, you know? I'm just taking it. Well, you know, he's been busy crapping in his big boy pants most of his career. I mean, you know, listen, one of the lessons he's learned, I mean, look, the guy's been a judge to be a sex abuser and a defamer of women. Even where he hasn't been a judge,

the public rightly believes that he's abused other women, a series of women, and he's a misogynist. He's lost, he's going bankrupt multiple times, including running casinos. He's got a $500 million judgment against him right now in New York. He's got a $100 million judgment in the E. Jean Carroll against him.

You know, he got criminally indicted a number of times, three times. He got convicted once. He got impeached twice. He was criminally indicted four number of times, three times. He got convicted once. He got impeached twice. He was criminally indicted four times. You're forgetting Georgia. He was criminally indicted four times. What's the four?

Georgia. Oh, Mar-a-Lago, Georgia, New York, what else? Jan six. I'm in Jan six. Yeah, I forget all these things. It's two, yeah, one state, three federal. Oh no, two state, two federal. Yeah, he gave me, he's so bad, I can't even keep track of his how bad he is.

So, all right, so this is when you have that person, they become warped. Is that a healthy, does anybody think he's a healthy person, that he's not a broken human being? I mean, he's a broke, if this was just a case study in psychology, he's a bro- if this was just a case study in psychology, he's a broken human being. Unfortunately, a fair number of people voted him

into office to be our president during this time in his life. And I gotta tell you, I mean, we'll see it show up, I'm sure at the midterms, but who doesn't want their vote back to vote for Donald Trump? I mean, I sat around here in a community that I'm in. There's a bunch of people of all different political stripes.

And I said, just name for me. I'm being honest. I'm just asking the question here. Name for me something good that you like that he's done. That's helped you in some way in 85 days. I'm willing to listen. Just tell me what it is. I mean, I follow the economy pretty closely.

I follow international diplomacy pretty closely. I follow domestic policy and immigration policy pretty closely. Tell me what diplomacy pretty closely. I follow domestic policy and immigration policy pretty closely. Tell me what it is. What is it? What is it that you voted for that he's doing in any event? And the only thing this group could come up with, and it was pretty, it got shot down pretty quickly, was for the people that were in real estate. They were like, he's good for real estate because everybody's flooding out of the stock market and they're looking for hard assets. And I'm like, he's good for real estate because everybody's flooding out of the stock market and they're looking for hard assets.

And I'm like, that's it? That's what you got? Okay, that's not what a presidency is supposed to be about. Okay, it's not a business. This is what we keep saying. I mean, we don't say it to our audience this way, but our audience, I think, knows this in the fiber of their being,

but this is not a business. This is why business people don't make good presidents, because they don't understand the levers of power. They don't understand not only the role of the US in its own economy, in its own political system, in its own political experiment. They don't understand it, because they see everything as dollars and cents in a ledger.

And that's not how, its government is not incorporated. It has social contract with the American people, the people. It has military responsibilities, national security responsibilities, social safety net responsibilities, entitlement, you know, the things we call entitlements, things, it runs an economy. It's got all of these things.

And Donald Trump just says, where is it? I want to destroy it. What is it? Have we destroyed it yet? They're going to let go of 40,000 federal workers in DC. DC is going to be shuttered. You know what the businesses in District of Columbia

are saying right now about the Trump administration? It's killing business. I never thought I'd say a Republican was bad for business, but is there any Republican that you can think of, Karen, as a president, that's worse for business, but is there any Republican that you can think of Karen as a president? That's worse for business and the business environment than Donald Trump. I can't right I really can't I really can't you know, I was one of the only people who everybody else was just like oh This is a disaster. This is to disaster when he was president. I'm like, you know what?

Let's give him a chance. Yeah, why are we gonna crash the plane? We're all flying in this very good You know, let's let's give him a chance. He won. gonna crash the plane we're all flying in? That's very good. Let's give him a chance. He won, that's what it means to be in a democracy. And he won the House, he won the Senate, controls the Supreme Court. Let's go, let's truly make America great again. And here we are. This is worse than people said it was.

It's worse than we said it was. There are people who come up to me and they will say to me, we thought you were being dramatic. We thought you were being extreme and it's worse than you said. And it really is. I mean, I just, I'm shocked. I can't believe it.

We saw it coming after the election, even from the letters that were being written by his acting whatevers and incoming whatevers, we were like, uh-oh. I mean, I said it early on. I mean, I said right after the election, we're gonna be lurching from one constitutional crisis to the next.

And just take whatever the lawsuits were against the Trump administration the first time around, which were a thousand, and multiply it by a power of three or four. And that's how many we're gonna have now. I don't wanna be right, but I am right, because as you said, this is how he's using his superpowers. Instead of for good, he's using it for retribution

and vengefulness and evil. We're gonna talk about Mayor Adams and the prosecutors there. And then finally, what law firms are doing and judges are doing to try to support and reinforce a major component that undergirds our free democracy, our constitutional republic,

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What are they doing? It doesn't matter. So just to remind everyone, essentially, the Southern District of New York brought this sweeping indictment against the mayor of New York City, Eric Adams. And the case was proceeding, and Donald Trump... And we saw Mayor Adams courting Donald Trump, right?

He was kind of courting him and parroting his language and really saying things that made anyone who's paying attention think something's going on here. And sure enough, when Donald Trump won, next thing we know, Donald Trump agrees to dismiss the case. And he orders, it turns into this giant mess because they order the prosecutors to dismiss the case. They can't find anyone who was willing to do it.

People, the acting United States attorney, Danielle Sassoon, who is Republican and conservative, resigned in protest and released her resignation letter where she detailed how they took her notes that she was taking, how they ordered her to do things that were unethical, how they essentially didn't care about how there's merit here. This is all a quid pro quo. And they were asking to dismiss it without prejudice,

meaning they can bring the case back any time. So Donald Trump would literally control Mayor Adams. And it was all about immigration policy. And Donald Trump was going to use Eric Adams to enforce his immigration policy in a sanctuary city like New York City is. And so it was this huge showdown. Danielle Sassoon resigned in protest

and accused Emil Bovay, who was Donald Trump's criminal defense attorney in the Manhattan DA case, and now is the number three at the Department of Justice of basically being unethical. And so that's what happened there. But then they put the prosecutors who were actually prosecuting the case, three of them on administrative leave, in the interim, the case got dismissed, but with prejudice.

The judge, Judge Ho, said, no, you're not doing that. You're not going to dangle this and control the mayor of New York City. If you want to dismiss it, you'll dismiss it with prejudice, meaning they can never bring the case again, which is astounding. This is one of the larger political corruption cases brought ever in New York City. This was a case where it was so important that they arrested Mayor Adams in the middle of the United Nations General Assembly

that week that there were heads of state and dignitaries coming to the island of Manhattan from all over the world because that's where the United Nations is. The United Nations is located in Manhattan and once a year they all come and they all descend upon Manhattan and the NYPD, which Mayor Adams controls, they're the ones who protect all the dignitaries. It's this huge coordination. They do an unbelievable job keeping people safe and protected. But this case was so serious and so important

that the Southern District of New York, the Department of Justice under Joe Biden said, you know what, we're going to very loudly and very publicly arrest Eric Adams in the middle of all of this. And so that was a big case here. They dismissed the case. Danielle, so soon as resigned and they put the prosecutors prosecuting the case on administrative leave with pay. So then what happened was, OK, now what?

Right now, now what you do with these individuals? And the three individuals, the three AUSAs on the case that were left wrote a resignation letter to Todd Blanch, the other attorney, criminal defense attorney who represented Trump in his Manhattan DA criminal trial, who's now the number two at the Department of Justice under Pam Bondi, the attorney general. It says, dear Deputy Attorney General Blanche, the department placed each of us on administrative leave

ostensibly to review our and the Southern District of New York US Attorney's Office's handling of the Adams case. It's now clear that one of the preconditions you have placed on our returning to the office is that we must express regret and admit some wrongdoing by the office is that we must express regret and admit some wrongdoing by the office in connection with the refusal to move to dismiss the case. We will not confess wrongdoing when there was none.

We've served under presidents of both parties, advancing their priorities while pursuing justice without fear or favor. The role of a career prosecutor is not to set policy, but a prosecutor must abide by the oath to uphold the Constitution and laws of the United States and the rules of professional ethics set by the bar and courts. The department has long understood that these duties can and should coexist with the need to follow department policies and orders. This is to the benefit of all, the courts, defendants, and the public,

who can have confidence in the good faith and judgment of lying prosecutors, the department which retains credibility while still receiving zealous advocacy from its lawyers and the prosecutors themselves who can stand in court confident that they're ethically carrying out their duties. Now the department has decided that obedience supersedes all else, requiring us

to abdicate our legal and ethical obligations in favor of directions from Washington. That was wrong. Serving in the Southern District of New York has been an honor. There's no greater privilege than to work for an institution whose mandate is to do the right thing the right way for the right reasons. We will not abandon this principle to keep our jobs. We resign."

Signed Celia Cohen, Andy Rohrabach, and Derek Wickstrom, Assistant United States Attorneys. I mean, beautifully written and beautifully said, and it's true. I was a prosecutor for 30 years, and it's not what you do, it's who you are. It's in your DNA, you believe in ethics, you believe in truth, the justice and the American way.

I mean, it's really important. And what went on there is unlike anything anyone's ever seen. It's absolutely lawless and unethical and the opposite of doing justice. So the Department of Justice is in crisis right now. So are the US Attorney's offices. We'll see where the chips fall. In the meantime,

individual defendants are the ones who are going to either benefit or suffer based on whether or not you're somebody who supports Trump or is a fan of Trump or whatever and that's what's going on. So that was that was pretty stunning there. Yeah, that's yeah you you eloquently put it all together there. It's, what this means for the Department of Justice, another black eye under Todd Blanch, also somebody that, you know, we held a little bit of hope out for, because he had been a reasonably highly regarded former US attorney

and defense lawyer until he went to the dark side and just quit his law practice and opened up a new law practice to serve one master in Donald Trump. But then you know from all the reports and media profiles of him I've ever seen this was his lottery ticket he decided to run that if he could somehow turn the tide against Donald Trump in the criminal cases that he would be rewarded handsomely in the Department of Justice. I think he wanted the Attorney General position.

He got the number two job. If Pam Bondi ever decides to, or she's involuntarily dismissed, I think he would move up to the number one job. But we thought, well, at least he's sort of an adult. But look, the number two job at the Department of Justice is often known as the bad cop, and he's certainly fitting the bill. What it means is that when the Department of Justice is often known as the bad cop, and he's certainly fitting the bill. What it means is that when the Department of Justice, which used to have so much respect, like your old office,

like when the Manhattan DA goes into court, it gets the benefit of the doubt more than not. I mean, maybe not on the prosecutor's side because you've got your own burdens, but what I mean is they're credible, they're reliable. Judges trust what they, if they say a case stands for a certain proposition, it does. If they say they've complied with their obligations under the law to do something, they did. If they, if, you know, if a set of facts

are as they presented, the judges agree with it. And that comes from having a tremendous impeccable reputation as an advocate for being ethical. Department of Justice does not have that now. And that means that whenever they open their mouth, that judges, especially those outside of the red states have a completely jaundiced view of them. I've seen more warnings of the Department of Justice lawyers in a courtroom than I've ever, in the last 80 days that I've ever seen

in my collective, you know, 35 years of practice. You know, it is not usual, just for those that don't do this for a living, it is not usual or normal for federal judges to take time out and spill ink in orders and in courtrooms to chastise lawyers for the Department of Justice and reminding them of their ethical obligations. And yet we see that in every order and every day because you can't, let's just put it in plain English,

in plain speak, you can't trust the Department of Justice. You can't trust what it says. Factually, if they tell you there's a set of facts, if they tell you the sky is blue and the grass is green, you better go outside and double check. You can't believe them on the law, you can't believe them to properly recite the law, you can't believe them to paraphrase rulings by the United States Supreme Court without changing the words of it in a meaningful way. And so what does that mean? It means that the prosecutors are not trusted by the judges,

and they need to administer justice by getting to the truth. And they're short one, takes two to tango, and they're short one party to that search for the truth. That's what our adversarial process is supposed to be. We're not supposed to be worried about the ethics and the credibility and the virtue of one of the parties to the lawyer, to the suit and the credibility and the virtue of one of the parties to the lawyer, to the suit or the prosecution.

They're supposed to be zealous advocates advocating in this adversarial tug of war with the burdens of proof, you know, keeping everybody honest on respective sides. But that's what we're supposed to be watching not having the judge think, I wonder if Mr. Ensign is telling me the truth here. I doubt that he is. I wonder if this one is telling me the truth. I doubt that they are. And that's why you're saying, let's have an evidentiary hearing. Let's have discovery.

That's the solution for everything. You go and go give deposition testimony under oath. You go bring documents. Bring it all back to me. And let's have an evidentiary hearing and then I'll be literally the judge But it's it is from Karen Have you ever what would it be? What would it been for you as a as a prosecutor if you didn't have and your office didn't have? Credibility with your judges. What would it mean? I mean the one thing we teach everybody is that's the only thing you have as a lawyer is your credibility it's all you have and that's because you go into court you're an officer of the court and you you say things and If you don't have your credibility you and judges talk and you have a bad reputation. That's it you you you're ineffective

You can't do your job And the only people who really would get fired are people who lie, who don't have credibility. Everyone makes mistakes, right? Everybody makes mistakes, but that's up to it on up to it. But you lie about it. You try to cover it up. That's when people were getting in trouble. And because that's really what you have and all you have. I've never seen anything like this before, especially in federal court where justice, I mean, that's the thing in federal court where. Department of Justice. I mean, that's the thing. In federal court, the judges come from the Department of Justice, right? Or the lawyers clerked for the judges. I mean, there's this incredible symbiotic relationship between prosecutors and federal

judges. They almost bend over backwards to protect them, which is frustrating if you're a defense attorney. That's not the same dynamic in state court. In state court, you don't have these judges. Some are elected, some are appointed, at least in New York. It's a very different thing, and it's just fascinating

that if that's going away, I'm... Everything, the world order is changing in the Department of Justice and federal courts in this country for sure. Yeah. In a way, it's to our advantage that the lawyers for the Department of Justice are both incompetent and borderline unethical or being called out because it is, as Donald Trump put it in a recent social media post,

my lawyers are getting stymied. Yeah, your lawyers are getting stymied because they're making ridiculous arguments that aren't based on the law or the facts by people that the judges don't trust. That perfect storm is not going to make you successful, but that's a good thing. That's why the attorneys general and the public interest groups like the American Civil Liberties Union and others are batting over 900 in these cases. Sure, at the Supreme Court, well, now it's 3 to 3, because that was before the 1 a.m. So it's 3 to 3. We're batting 500 at the Supreme Court once it gets there.

Although some of those wins for Donald Trump are going to be ethereal. They're going to be shot down over time. They were cheap victories now, but long term, after the appellate court's rule, I'm not sure they're going to be sustained. But 3-3 there, it's 90% of the other 140 cases I mean you can't you can't swing a stick without hitting a temporary injunction or preliminary or preliminary injunction or permanent injunction

Against the Trump administration and all they can do is complain about it. Oh, yeah more of them against us than any other Joe Biden is four years like, because Joe Biden wasn't insanely lawless. You can say whatever you want about Joe Biden, but he wasn't trying to pick a fight with the Supreme Court and federal judges on an hourly basis. And we were a better country for it. We were a more stable country for it. You know, we had a less erratic conduct and behavior. And I'll just make

this last point clear to my friends that still voted for Trump or whatever. Erratic is not a doctrine. The Trump doctrine of, well, they don't know what he's going to do. That's not a, that's not a policy. That makes us weaker, not stronger, to continue the theme from the show today. You know, that doesn't diminish or weaken our adversaries and our enemies, it makes them stronger. Because they know they've got an erratic lunatic on the other side that can't be trusted. They're not worried about the bomb being dropped on them.

Donald Trump, you know, can't hold a thought in his head long enough to pull that off. But that's not what they're worried about. You know, it's just this erratic conduct around the economy, domestic policy, and other things. So that's not a doctrine. That's what we have to remember as we move into the midterms.

All right, for our final segment today, let's talk quickly about the law firms that are fighting back. Two hearings today, one before Judge Barrell Howell involving Perkins Coy, where Mark Elias used to work along with a guy named Sussman, Michael Sussman, and Jenner and Block, two different judges, same courthouse, two men enter, one man leave.

Let's just put it this way, it was about whether the courts were going to enter preliminary injunctions, having already issued temporary restraining orders to stop the Trump administration from retaliating against law firms because they don't like the people they're representing, or they don't like their First Amendment expression.

And they're trying to penalize them by putting them on a blacklist. So with that, we have the hearings. And how do you think based on the reporting within the room, we're still waiting for the written orders? How do you think it's going to go for the Trump administration? I mean, like you can't just you can't just issue these executive orders, which are essentially just proclamations that against your enemies, right? Oh, you know, I don't like you. So I'm going to revoke your ability to go into federal courthouses. You can't do that for no reason without any cause.

And so I think they're going to lose. There's going to be permanently enjoying from doing it. Frankly, I don't know why more firms didn't fight back and aren't fighting back. I know some of them capitulated and as a result have to provide, I think, over a billion dollars worth of pro bono legal work on causes that he believes in. I think some of them are going to back off of that unless he lets them kind of do a few things that are common interest pro bono work, work for free, things that they care about.

We haven't seen the end of this yet for the ones who have caved and gave in. But the ones that are fighting back are the litigation firms, the Perkins Coys and the Wilmer Hales. And they're fighting back, they're fighting back hard and I think they're gonna win resoundingly. And what happens when people fight back? You see Trump back down, look at Harvard. You know, Harvard fought back.

Harvard, when he issued an executive order, basically, taking funding away from Harvard, that is backfiring massively, right? You can't have a guy who started a fake university and failed, started a failed, fake university go after our nation's oldest, our oldest, 400 years old. I didn't realize that. That's how long Harvard has been around.

And if you read the complaint there, I know we're talking about law firms, and I'm sorry to divert to Harvard, but I read that complaint. It's just beautifully written complaint, and it talks about all the incredible work that they do and the research that they fund and the billions of dollars that of all the different things, the cancers that they've cured or that of dollars that of all the different things, the cancers that they've cured

or that they're curing in the process of and the innovations for astronauts in space and just all the different things that are going to be impacted by this because, and then they kind of said, look, we'll pay for our, we'll pay for these things ourselves for a while, but after a while, if the government doesn't fund it, we can't continue like this forever. People are starting to fight back

and we start seeing cracks in the armor here, right? You see Trump saying things like, oh, that email was sent in mistake, but then he doubles down again. But you fight back, you punch back and I think he'll back down ultimately and I think that's what's gonna happen with these firms because this is just bizarre and outrageous.

And again, petty and small and weak, that this is what you're gonna do against law firms. You can't go into a federal building. It just seems like a petulant child making these weird proclamations that just make no sense. And it's just nothing, not what our government's ever done or been before. We've always been able, government's not perfect.

Government can sometimes, can't get out of its own way, and sometimes there's too much red tape. There's a lot you can say to criticize government, and I'll be the first in line since I worked for government for three decades. But it's never been this corrupt, this lawless, this disorganized, this erratic, this petty, petty vengeful, using the power of your office to go after your enemies this disorganized, this erratic, this petty, petty vengeful,

using the power of your office to go after your enemies and your rivals and to be petty and revengeful. It's just shocking. It's absolutely shocking. And to me, that's what is going to have the reverberating effect when the Democrats come back eventually, is are people going to trust the Department of Justice again? Are people going to trust the rule of law again? Are people going to trust the rule of law again? Are people going to trust the

government again? That earning that trust back and earning that that safety and security back is the thing that I think is going to take a long time to earn back and that that's what that's what I quibble with with the Trump administration. It's not okay I disagree I disagree. We disagree on policy. I think that's exactly what a democracy is supposed to do, right? You have debates. You have open communication, free speech.

You give your issue. You tell your side. And at the end of the day, somebody wins and then everybody follows because we live in a democracy and we live in the rule of law. And that's just how it goes. We support whoever wins, right? Whatever party wins, whatever person wins, we support them and we move forward and we try to persuade people of our position and hopefully we get there. That is not what is happening for the first

time in our nation's history. Certainly, I mean, I don't know, maybe someone's going to correct me back in the 1700s. Maybe it wasn't like this. But in the modern era, and certainly my lifetime, I've never seen anything remotely like this. And that to me is what's going to be hard to bring back. So I'm glad that these law firms are fighting back. I think it's important and somebody has to stand up

and fight back against against this this craziness So I support them so to hundreds of others, right? There's these amicus briefs that were filed these friends of the court briefs that were filed from something like 500 other law firms Former judges, I mean Judges, right? Yeah, people are coming out of the woodworks to say to support this because this is this is just not it's not right. Yeah, Jamie, Jamie Raskin says resistance and a rally a day keeps fascism away. And that's what we're we're starting to see as the Democrats regain their footing, and the leadership regain their footing. They're finding a way to make Donald Trump the perfect foil for their policies and showing the American people what it would be like if the Democrats were in charge, which is actually a good thing.

So we'll continue to follow it all right here on Legal AF. You're here already. Hit the subscribe button for the Midas Dutch Networks. Hit the subscribe button for the Legal AF YouTube channel. There it is right there, Legal AF MTN. We've got a Patreon that goes along with that, Patreon, patreon slash legal AF. And then of course, our pro democracy sponsors, follow us here, Midas Touch, listen to the audio

versions help us continue to grow this pro democracy channel and also our particular podcast Saturday, I do the show. But then myself is always always one of the highlights of my week to do it when I have the show, but then myself is always, always one of the highlights of my week to do it when I have the opportunity to spend time with you, Karen. Great to see you, Popa. Yeah, and feel better. And until then, until then, shout out to the Midas Mighty and the Legal A F'ers.