Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Major Legal UPDATES after Election

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

Michael Popok and Karen Friedman Agnifilo host a special post-election midweek edition of the Legal AF podcast. On tap? 1. the use of favorable pro-Democracy federal courts and circuits and AGs/prosecutors to flood the zone on voter rights, women’s rights, immigration policy, civil rights, and to restrain unbridled power play by trump and MAGA congress; 2. details on an effective plan using Democratic leaders in Congress as the opposition party to oppose radical cabinet, federal judge and scotus nominees in conjunction with public interest groups, DNC, and investigative groups like pro publica; & Meidas; 3. an update on the 4 criminal cases against Trump; and on jan6 defendants and their federal convictions, prosecutions and sentences, and so much more at the intersection of law and politics. Subscribe to the new Legal AF channel: https://www.youtube.com/@LegalAFMTN Subscribe to Meidas+ at https://meidasplus.com Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/lights-on-with-jessica-denson On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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that were appointed by democratic presidents in the past, use circuit courts that are favorable to us in order to oppose what we know is going to be a radical agenda being pushed by Donald Trump, just the way he tied Joe Biden and Kamala Harris up in knots on their executive orders and their policies. We, as Democrats and progressives and free thinking people have to do the exact same thing lawsuits should already be Drafted that mirror project 2025 and ready to be filed in various places that will go over here on legal AF. This is not a Losing election, although it is as far as I see it. It's worth we're plus one

One day closer to the midterms And hopefully, you know, it's all hope're plus one, one day closer to the midterms. And hopefully, you know, it's all hope is not lost yet on the, um, on the house, talk about how the house and the Democrats, they're either in the minority or in the majority can use their weapons against Donald Trump to reign in his unbridled power. If they're in the minority position, they can still conduct some sort of investigations and they have subpoena power depending upon the committee. If they're in the majority, all the way up to impeachment and the oversight committee, which could be and should be

used. We need to talk about at the intersection of law and politics how the party moves forward. We move forward in resistance, in opposition, but again, not in exile. Then we're going to talk today on the show about the prominence of not only the federal courts but now I think a bolstering of the power of the state attorney generals in democratic states around the country and the job and they have cut out for them moving forward to rein in those around Donald Trump. Donald Trump may have immunity. Donald Trump will give out pardons like tic tacs come the day after he's or the day of

his inauguration. But that doesn't stop state proceedings, although they may be delayed a bit. We'll talk a little bit more about the role of the attorney generals and federal courts moving forward for civil rights, voting rights, and reproductive rights. And then also we'll touch on, on the political side, what Congress and the leaders of the Democrats can do, both the old guard and the new guard, whether they're in the minority or they're in the majority. And then of course we're going to update on what happens from a logistic standpoint to the remaining four cases against Donald Trump and others that are not named Donald Trump but that were in his

inner circle and are facing other state court cases and the like. Of course we'll focus as well with Karen Friedman and Nick Nifilo on what's going to happen on two rulings that were one ruling and one sentencing that we're waiting on from Judge Mershon in New York against Donald Trump. And we'll cover lots of other things that pop into our mind. We're glad you're here. You know, this is the reason Karen, me, Ben, we put together Legal AF because we anticipated moments like this one. It wasn't all going to be, you know, like happy moments, but they're important moments for the linking of arms and being shoulder to shoulder with the community and independent investigative and journalism and analysis and commentary like no other. So we appreciate those that are here and those

that will join us for the next two years and four years and beyond. And I'm glad Karen Freeman, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad to be here. Today was a rough day. Today was a day that I'll never forget how I felt when I woke up this morning. And the world felt like it was different. It felt like I always thought the world was round and it's actually turns out it was flat. I mean it's really a lot of it was a very hard morning to wake up to, very hard to have these realizations that the world that you thought you lived in is not the world that we are in right now. And the one thing, the one bright shining light for me

was this community. And one of the first things I put out on social media today was thank God for this community, thank God for the Midas Touch Network and the millions of people who come together, who are like-minded, who want this, and we can support each other and work together. And I love what Kamala said today.

She said, this is not a time to, this isn't a time to throw up your hands. It's a time to roll up your sleeves and let's get to work. And that is exactly what we have to do. There's still a lot of work to do. We will learn from this. We will have plenty of time to look back and wonder where did we miss out?

Where did we go wrong, et cetera. But we cannot ever let this get us down and we have to continue to move forward. And it was this community that I knew that I could come back to. I went and went onto YouTube and started watching videos and reading things on the website. And it was all from the Midas Touch community.

And that's where I feel grateful to be a part of this community. And I'm really grateful to the brothers and everybody who created this space for us all to be together. And we can't give up, we have to keep going. And there's a lot of us and there's no reason why we can't use this as a learning experience

to move forward and keep going because it's just too important otherwise. Yeah we have agreed we have there is a multi-pronged process here that should be implemented and will be implemented by the Democrats and those that are progressive minded. The courts are not close to us there are just to run through it. The Republican strategy has always been file a lawsuit by a made-up fake organization or some public interest group or the Republican National Committee, file it in Louisiana or Texas or Mississippi, take it up to a judge that they know is sitting in one, just in one, a one, a one judge district, something like Cosmeric in, in Amarillo, Texas, or somehow get your way into alien cannons

of the world, then take it up to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeal, which leans completely right and a lot of Trumpers, then that gives you sort of a fast track through somebody like Sam Alito or Clarence Thomas to the United States Supreme Court. But we've got federal judges and we've got circuits that are favorable to democracy. And as far as I'm concerned, democracy may have been put in a cage, but we have the keys to unlock it over the next two years. And it starts with these lawsuits. I'm not talking about on voting.

I'm talking about on policy. As soon as Donald Trump gets into office and on day one starts signing all these crazy executive orders and policies and potentially laws, they need to be challenged. Many of them could be drafted already off the playbook of project 2025. And then we've got courts too. Every place that was blue on the map, effectively. New York, New Jersey, up to Massachusetts, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and then the circuit courts

that go along with that. The Second Circuit in New York, the Third that covers New Jersey, the Fourth, the First up to Boston, the DC Circuit, the Federal Circuit. These are all places that we should be flooding the zone with lawsuits led by, we have some on our bench, we have some amazing, amazing election lawyers, election law firms, public

interest law firms, civil rights law firms, voting rights law firms, reproductive rights law firms, some of them are all in one firm. And we have to be ready now. We have a group with us over on Legal AF, the YouTube channel, Court Accountability Action, and the action is what we're emphasizing here on this particular post-election legal AF. File those suits when we don't like or we think a policy has gone too far, is overreaching, is unconstitutional, and bring it before one of the judges. And now I'm speaking to the judges. These federal judges who are appointed by Obama by Clinton by Biden Have to stop playing whatever they're playing which as well We're just umpires and we just call balls and strikes. Forget it

You're getting we're getting slaughtered by federal judges who don't realize that they are a player in the game They're not just the Empire and they better start protecting democracy for us And they better start protecting democracy for us. And there's already research going on about, and we know which judges are gonna be most favorable to our position. And then come up through the Supreme Court, come up through a Sotomayor sitting over a circuit, come up through a Kagan,

come up through a Katanji Brown Jackson, and then get it over there and let them work on Amy Coney Barrett to try to get her to be a swing vote for something that's important to us. And that's from the fed court perspective. Karen, what's your comments about that? And then I want you to go to the attorney general

and prosecutors who are state, who are working for states and don't have to worry necessarily about federal pardon power, but they have their own issues. Yeah, look, I'm reading the chats as we're talking, and there's a lot of people who, rightly so, are saying, why should we be hopeful? And we lost, and this is, we have to say these things. And I want to address those things. And I think it's important that we address those issues. And exactly what you were saying, Popak. Our system was created to prevent the bad things that are about to happen.

And there will be some bad things and there's no way around it. Trump is gonna appoint some pretty terrible people into positions and they're gonna try to do a lot of things that are gonna offend us and potentially affect us tremendously. But we are a system of things that are going to offend us and, and potentially affect us tremendously. But we are a system of checks and balances, and that is a good thing. And so we need to utilize that and we need to leverage that and make sure that the guardrails are in place,

that we're watching everything that they're doing, and that we hold them to account when they do things that try to either violate the law or are things that just are absolutely wrong and we cannot allow to happen. And there are ways things don't happen overnight. And again, I was despondent this morning. I really had a rough morning. And I'm saying this because it took me a while to get to where I am right now, but I really truly believe what I'm about to say, which is the fact that you've got potentially the Republicans controlling the House, the Senate,

and the presidency is an opportunity for us as Democrats for the following reason. First of all, we have to love our country more than any party, right? We all can agree on that. Maybe not Trump, but we can all agree on that. And so as a result, we want our country to succeed. And we want things like our economy to do well. We might not agree on this policy or that policy, but there are certain things that we agree on

that we want to have happen. We all have said immigration is broken. The economy is very difficult right now. And even though it's doing well, there are people who don't feel that. Great. Fix it. And let's hold them accountable.

Let's absolutely hold them accountable. You control the House. You control the Senate. You control the presidency. And show that their ridiculous policies don't work, that they are nothing but bluster. And let's show and hold them accountable for when they try to, when Elon Musk destroys

Literally destroys our country or RFK destroys our health care system We have to show that what they're talking about is outrageous It's wrong and let's hold them accountable because they can't blame others. That's their game, right? Their game is to say oh, I would have done it But they the house wouldn't pass it or the Senate wouldn't pass it or, you know, or they love to do that. So let's let's beat them at their own game. And let's let's see them try to fix it. Let's see them try to make it better. They're not going to. And I think the emperor is going to be shown to have no clothes. And, and thankfully, we do have systems of checks and balances in place that will hopefully prevent the horrible things that people are worried about and that people are talking about in the chat and that we all worry about.

You read project 2025 and you see the things that they wanna do, it's horrendous. The dictator stuff, the mass deportation stuff. I mean, it's terrifying, the nationwide abortion ban, you know, but we will be able to really, I think, fight those back and really keep certain, you know, the Constitution is still the Constitution, right? And the laws are still the laws, and we are going to hold them to all of it. And, you know, the heroes, the real heroes here, as you said, Popak, some of them are going to have worn judges, are going to wear robes, are going to be the heroes, the real heroes here, as you said, Popok, some of them are going to have worn judges, are going to wear robes, are going to be the judges, right?

And those are the ones that we're going to have to rely upon. And I think what you were saying is you bring cases strategically in particular locations where you have judges who you know will uphold the rule of law, right? They don't know the fix isn't in. It's not that they're going to rule for you because you're

a Democrat or a Republican. You're going to go to judges who actually care about things like the law and will apply the law because if you apply the law a dictator cannot be a dictator right you can't just you can't do these things you can't take away people's constitutional rights and in the states thank god for federalism thank god this is the checks and balances that our founding fathers who came from Europe where there were kings and dictators and this is what they were trying to avoid. So we've got federalism. We've got states, we've got local, state,

and federal courts and governments, et cetera. And so they can't just come in and wave a magic wand and do everything they want to do. They can try But luckily we have state prosecutors state attorneys general Yes, the Supreme Court created immunity for the president not for everybody else Not for everybody else and not everybody is above the law and in state court You cannot the federal government Donald Trump with his little pardon power. He can't do it. You cannot pardon people in federal for state court crimes or for civil cases. Letitia James, the attorney general of New York, she brought a civil case. What's

going to happen with the $450 million judgment? That's still going to stand hopefully. And it's ways like that, that we can be strategic to make sure that we contain the damage, that's still going to stand hopefully and and it's ways like that that we can be strategic to make sure That we contain the damage that it's not too terrible We spend the time figuring out what went wrong. We take the time to try to win over hearts and minds And and this we we try not to ever let this happen again And thankfully as you said the midterms will come up and maybe we can win the House again, and the Senate again. Yeah.

I mean, listen, for those that have been around for a while through the rock, the rock went around the sun a few times. I mean, I remember the Reagan map. Reagan won every state but Minnesota against Mondale. And somehow the Democrats recovered from that Reagan era, elected Clinton twice, Obama twice, and Biden. And so it's dark now, no doubt. But the midterms are, it's not like the Olympics,

we gotta wait every four years to do something. We can do something and send a crushing message in just two years. And now we know what to do in terms of messaging, in terms of Donald Trump, who'll be a lame duck president by the time his second year rolls around in any event, if we give him that crushing defeat, all the more so, people will then be scrambling, you know,

JD Vance is gonna try to be the president in the future, but I'm not sure others are gonna just step back and not demand a primary. And so the Republican Party could tear itself apart. It's barely held together under Trumpism, this populist strain within the Republican Party. And we could see that fly out of control and with competing factions, which we will, of course, benefit from and promote going forward. So, you know, we had an odd set of circumstances that were not usual with Joe Biden and the decision,

you know, two and a half months before the election not to seek reelection, no primary, the vice president, all of that. From the moving forward perspective, we'll wait to see the House is still up for grabs, but either they're in the majority or in the minority. It's just a little easier if the Democrats are in the majority. Either way, you have a role for, we've walked through the role of the federal courts, and it starts with plaintiffs, it starts with public interest groups, non-governmental organizations, NGOs. It starts with political action groups. It starts with the Democratic National Committee filing these lawsuits when

they try to take away the things that are important to us as a democracy and challenge, challenge, challenge every policy, every executive order and every every law, and tie them up in knots, and we can do that from the outside with the federal court system. I mean, how many times did we have to have the student loan program, you know, eviscerated by one of the MAGA federal judges? Okay, we learned the lesson.

When he passes some crazy immigration policy and tries to separate families again or put kids in cages, we know the lesson. When he passes some crazy immigration policy and tries to separate families again or put kids in cages, we know where to go. To the right federal court, to the right federal judge, to the right circuit, and then we gotta work the levers of the power levers in the hallway through communities like this one, staying engaged, staying focused, while we continue to shine a lot on the ethical

mess that is the United States Supreme Court to try to continue to drag Amy Coney Barrett to the center as much as possible and as often as possible and hope that Roberts, when we're not dealing with elevating the presidency above the other co-equal branches of government, maybe on other important issues like he did with Obamacare, maybe we can get him over there on the social issues and the rest. And so that is going to be the push-pull that we need to focus on now that we're the party out of power, so to speak, but not in exile. Inside the halls of Congress, whether it's the combination of Hakeem Jeffries being guided by Nancy Pelosi still there, it would be a good strategist, Chuck Schumer, but then the then the

new guard, the AOCs and the others that have a lot to contribute here moving forward, you know, including Kamala Harris. She's not done as a leader of the Democratic Party. Neither is Josh Shapiro. Neither is, I think, neither is I think Tim Walz. I think these people are a new generation and they're going to help in the Congress itself. If they're in the majority, it's relatively easy. Let's draw up articles of impeachment on day one. Lord knows they did it to Joe Biden,

open up investigations where it's important on the oversight committee, the judiciary committee and other committees. And then even if they're in the minority, let's just manage expectations here. Let's say, you know, we don't run the table in the number of those districts that we thought we were going to win, and it would turn out that we lose by one or two votes again. It'll be slim again. It's hard to govern. It's hard to keep your speakers head on and crown on when you've only we've seen this before the last time around with the Republicans and will it will make them pay for sure and you're going to need Democratic votes for sure to get some things passed related

to the budget and the debt ceiling and things like that, especially when they've got their own breakaway Republic within the Republican Party, by the Matt Gates's and AOC's and other former Tea Party members. So we'll play that friction, that tension, and then there's committees that we're allowed in the minority position to issue subpoenas and to do investigations. It may be a minority report, no pun intended, but it will shine a light on the issues and keep them honest. And then the last piece I wanna run by with you, is Karen, is the media's role. I'm gonna kick it off and I'll throw it over to you.

The problem that the mainstream media had from my perspective is that they were so concerned with having a wall between the editorial side of the house and the news reporting side of the house, that that led to the normalization of outrageous aberrational behavior by Donald Trump on a daily basis. So for instance, and not to be too shocking,

when a reporter stands at a rally or a reporter reports about an ad and says effectively, Donald Trump called Kamala Harris the C-word today. But later on at another rally, like, stop, stop, stop and comment and editorialize. It's not right, it's not appropriate, but they got so tied up about, we got to report the news, he said C-U-N-T to her, like no. And it was that normalization that Donald Trump took advantage of that nobody was to hold him to account except for the few talking heads on MSNBC or CNN and all the

rest of them. Here, we fuse news, accurate reporting and information and data along with our editorial opinion and our analysis. And because of that, we call out what we see. That's the problem with mainstream media. They're so tied up in knots with, we have to report that he did this today. You know, it'd be like if there was a reporter trying to report the Holocaust between, you know, Hitler and the Jews. At some point, you have to make an editorial, you have to take an editorial position. What did you think about the news,

how about the media moving forward? What do they need to do? And if they can't do it, frankly, we've got to do it. I was gonna say, I think really, I think the next generation of news reporting is going to be grassroots viral news like what we do. I mean, it's amazing that that's what we've become, right? That we are part of the media, that we are here to deliver news, that, you know, we're lawyers, right?

We're lawyers and we each came to this for different reasons. And but it's just an interesting inflection point, I think. I think it's easy to blame, it's easy to kind of try to say, I think for example, what the Washington Post did was atrocious, absolutely atrocious. We're not gonna take a position, right? Take a position and own it, right?

Even if it's the one you disagree on. But I think what they did was atrocious. I think we have to think outside the box and be more grassroots and be more viral and be less about this kind of journalism is very, it's a certain way, right? And there's benefit to it, but they have to show both sides, they have to, you know, there's sort of a way that journalism has evolved that I think does provide some important roles, right? There's certain things that you look to a mainstream newspaper about, but when it comes, and I don't want to disparage that or a mainstream news organization, right? Like if there's a hurricane or a flood or something, right?

You're gonna go to them and you know, you're gonna get pretty good information about that. But you're talking about this role. And I don't know that this is just a news media role. I think this is a role of we have to look at ourselves as a movement and a community as much as we are news and information. And I do think the more I think Popak, you starting the the legal AF YouTube channel is a perfect example of what needs to happen more. And I'm so grateful that you did that because it's just yet another place where we can

constantly, there's gonna be so much misinformation out there. And it part of it's going to come from mainstream media part part of it's going to come from the people that the mag is a little is a cult. I hate to say it. That's what they are. And you've got these these podcasters, these really misogynistic, I'm not going to call any of them out by name, but these, you know, they kind of tend male, they tend aggressive, and you know which ones I'm talking about, those types of podcasting that taps into something. We have to fight that, and we have to fight that at that level.

And the more outlets we have, the more opportunities we have to do that, we have to. And there's gonna be so much misinformation out there spread by a lot of those people too. And there's gonna be so many efforts to try to fight back this new MAGA administration, because that's what this is going to be, that we have to call it out every time we see it.

And the thing that we do here at BITUS Touch is we tell the truth. We don't lie. We don't spin. Yeah, sometimes we will give our opinion and that is the case. But, you know, every time we can, we read you and I both. We spend so many hours reading the, and Ben too, reading the court filings, reading the opinions of the judges. You know, we want to be able to get information to people that is the truth and that is facts, whether it's

whether it's you like it or you don't like it, it's the truth. And that still matters. And that still matters, at least to me. And hopefully that is something that still matters to a majority of Americans. And I do think that Ben and the brothers and the Midas Touch Network and the Legal AF, MTN YouTube channel are exactly what we need more of and we need more places where we can provide this information. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I looked at the chat. I know some people, I'm glad everybody that's angry is also here. Everybody who thinks there's no hope and

Somebody wrote in their popox selen hopium. I'm not I'm trying to tell us I'm trying to outline how we get back into power and And the fact that we have a plan and should have a plan that we can implement is a good thing It's it's an important thing. We can't lay down. We can't roll up the sidewalks and say, well, that's it, democracy's over. It was nice knowing you. Last one out, turn out the lights. We've been in dark periods before.

There was no darker period for Democrats than when Ronald Reagan got an electoral vote total that had a five in front of it. We were all like, okay, that's not gonna do well. And the Democrats went into the wilderness for a while when they came out, that came out as a recharged party. And eventually we got to Bill Clinton and his era. And the soul searching has to go on here at the same time

that we police Donald Trump through the court system, through the judges we know are going to be favorable to the filings, let's be frank, and the circuits that will be favorable to the filings. No different than Donald Trump. We got to pin down Trump where we can there. We got to use Congress, either minority or majority, to do the same there. We have to use our organization.

Somebody wrote in chat, is Midas gonna be involved in some of the lawsuits? Maybe, maybe. We've certainly, I've certainly been tapped on the shoulder a few times to be more actively involved. That's something that could be a natural offshoot off of Legal AF. And for right now, we're strategists, we're advisors.

I use my skillset. I'm a national trial strategist. I know how to win cases and do that in front of juries and judges, so does Karen, so are the other people that have been here. But we will do this together and we will pull ourselves out of this. And the clock is already ticking towards the midterms. And we'd like to have ultimately the midterms and then we'd like to trifecta in the next election and have that lined up properly. So that's what we're talking about here. We're not talking about, I'm not smoking magic dust.

Okay, I don't have a, I'd love a unicorn, but I know I don't have one. But we're talking about the way, to paraphrase the Mandalorian, this is the way. And this is the way out of the darkness. And it starts with this community, and it starts with what we're doing behind the scenes and on camera to hold everybody accountable.

I got Court Accountability Action as a big contributor now in Legal AF, MTN, Legal AF YouTube channel. And we're gonna have with Karen tomorrow a conference call to talk about, not just how do we make a great podcast or videos, that's whatever. We're gonna talk about the action part of their title.

How do we move forward, get these lawsuits drafted, have them ready, have the judges selected that we want to file in and then the path to build there. We don't want to just be a network where we're just reporting on things that have already happened. We're trying to shape what's going to happen for our, literally for our community here. So that's what we're doing. On the, Karen, why don't we do a, because we have to, why don't we, why don't you lead on the update about the four cases that

Donald Trump had faced. The, you can start wherever you'd like, but we, of course, we've got the New York ruling on immunity and then a sentencing on the 26th of November on the 34 felony count conviction related to the last time he had some election interference issues and payoffs to Stormy Daniels. You got the Mar-a-Lago case which is up on appeal being prosecuted by the prosecutors by the Department of Justice before the 11th Circuit on whether Aileen Cannon was right or wrong to dismiss that case. You've got the DC election interference case presided over by Judge Chutkin, and you got the Georgia, that's still around,

the Fannie Willis, Georgia Fulton County DA prosecution, criminal Rico racketeering case against Donald Trump, and 12 or 13 others. Why don't you touch on all those and we can pick up on the leftovers like Bannon and Giuliani and things like that. Yeah, well, okay, let's start with the easy ones, okay? The easy ones are the federal cases because those are going away. Jack Smith is packing up his bags and winding down those cases and he will probably have to leave the country

if he doesn't wanna get prosecuted. But the cases, the Department of Justice has a longstanding policy. They don't prosecute a president or a sitting president. And that is going to dictate what happens with these cases. So they're gonna, he's literally gonna start packing his boxes and putting them away and filing things and figuring them out and winding down the cases.

And this is the two cases, the Eileen Cannon case that is on appeal and the Chetkin case that is pending. And those cases are going away. What we don't know will happen is will Donald Trump dismiss them entirely? I think he will. And will he pardon himself? Now the jury's out on whether he can or cannot pardon himself. Why wouldn't he? Who's going to stop him? And who's going to try to enforce it if it didn't work, right? He's going to stop him? And who's going to try to enforce it if it didn't work? Right? He's going to control the Justice Department. I think we have to be very careful who the next attorney general is

and hope to God that it is not someone terrifying, absolutely terrifying. That's going to be the single most powerful person in this administration, in my opinion. Um, that is going to be the lawyer in the country that will make all the decisions about who gets prosecuted, who doesn't, does he go after his enemies and the media and everybody else? Now, the one shining light in that parade of horribles is you've got thousands of prosecutors, federal prosecutors across the country who are line prosecutors who actually do the work. And they're public servants.

They're amazing. They're the finest lawyers there are. And I don't think they will go after people like that. I don't think they will go after people like that. I don't think they will do things like that. And I also don't think judges will allow that. And again, that's the system of checks and balances. So hopefully that will be the stop gap there. But he controls the cases, he'll pardon himself,

he'll pardon all his other people, right? The unindicted co-conspirators, co-conspirator number one, two, three, the Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, everybody's getting a pardon, right? His kids, everybody. So those cases are gone. They're done.

They're going away. There's no sugarcoating that. So those are the two federal cases. Then comes the, oh, he'll also pardon all the Jan 6 people, right, the, whatever he calls them, the patriots. All of them, all of the, just everybody, all the people who committed crimes, horrendous crimes, I think he's going to pardon them all.

Then comes Georgia. I'm going to end with the Manhattan DA's office because that's my old office. And that's the one silver lining here somewhat compared comparatively. Then comes Georgia. That's kind of on hold for a very long time. And I because of that and because they're trying to figure out whether or not what's going to happen with that case and whether whether Fonny Willis has to be removed from the case.

And even if she doesn't have to be removed from the case, that case is sort of puttering along and sputtering along that has to have a whole presidential immunity analysis that has to happen. That case is just not going gonna go anywhere anytime soon. And then of course, while he's the sitting president, if the federal government believes you can't prosecute a sitting president, the supremacy clause will control and a state court prosecutor

certainly will not be able to do that either. So that case is effectively gone as well, at least as to Donald Trump. The other defendants, it's a little trickier because some of the conduct in that indictment might be conduct that is triggered by the presidential immunity case that came down. So that the rest of the defendants could potentially putter along during the pendency of this presidency. But again, I wouldn't bet on it. Georgia went red and we'll see what happens with Fonny Willis in that case. So although that case could potentially go forward, at least as to some of the defendants,

I don't have high hopes for that one. So let's go to Manhattan, the Manhattan DA's office where I worked for 30 years, spent my career there. And a lot of people criticized Alvin Bragg for bringing this case. They called it a zombie case. They said, why this case? It's the least serious. There was a lot of criticism.

Alvin Bragg came on our show. We interviewed him early on. I was criticized for having him on. People didn't like him. Well, I want to just give a shout out to Alvin Bragg, who I've never worked for, by the way. I worked for the previous DA. And he had the courage to bring this case. He put his head down. He brought the case without fear or favor. He allowed himself to be threatened. He had, he just kept his wits about him despite the threats, despite the fact that Donald Trump would post pictures of him and

with a baseball bat next to his head. And I mean, just unbelievable how he was treated and how the amazing prosecutors who I used to work with in that office, handled that case with grace and with just complete and utter professionalism. And they got a 34 count conviction. And the judge as well is an incredible judge, Judge Juan Roshon, who I've been before many, many, many times. He's just a really fair judge.

And he took a lot of flak and criticism as well. Now, Donald Trump is supposed to be sentenced but before that the judge has to decide how does the ruling the immunity ruling apply to this case since the immunity ruling came down after the conviction in this case, which means the judge didn't have the benefit of that decision in order to apply that law to the facts of this case to determine what evidence was permissible or not permissible to come in, he still has to make that ruling. It's possible that he says, you know what, I have to dismiss this case, or I have to

reverse this case, and you'll have to retry this case because of presidential immunity and the Supreme Court. He could do that, that would be devastating. If he does do it, it's not gonna be because he's MAGA, it's not gonna be because he's Republican, it's not gonna be because he's Trump supporter. He's going to do it because he believes that's what the law says. That's what Judge Mershon does, that's who he is.

He calls balls and strikes. He absolutely will apply the law to the facts, whatever that is. I don't think he will end up reversing the conviction based on that case. Having read the case and looked at the evidence, I think the evidence was overwhelming. I think he'll find it to be harmless error. And then he will proceed to sentencing. And if he sentences Donald Trump, he has a wide range of options. He could sentence him to nothing, to a conditional discharge,

which basically means nothing, it's like time served. He could sentence him theoretically, this type of crime. You could sentence him to probation, you could sentence him to jail, and you can sentence him to prison, which is up to four years in prison. And if you were to look at similarly situated defendants who have been held in contempt because they violated the court orders in this case 10 times and the conduct that happened here, he would absolutely if he was anybody else, he would absolutely go to prison. The judge was sentenced into prison. However, because he's about to be president,

the judge, because of the supremacy clause, is very limited in what he can do. The supremacy clause of, I'm talking about it as if everyone knows what it is, it's a clause in the United States Constitution. It's about federalism. It essentially says the federal government trumps the state, right? It's just the way it is. And the Supremacy Clause is something that applies in many different contexts. In this context, when you do it,

it means that a state court judge cannot do anything that would interfere with Donald Trump, who's about to be president, pursuing or following the requirements of the Constitution as an article to president. So he will not be able to sentence him to state prison, and he will not be able to sentence him to state prison. And he will not be able to sentence him to probation because probation would mean that a state court judge has some kind of control over a federal, an article to a president in the constitution.

That cannot happen. Theoretically, could he sentence him to jail before he is sworn and takes an oath? He could. Will he? Probably not. I have a feeling if he is sentenced, he will get something like a fine, community service, or nothing.

That's how I see this going. So I do think he will be sworn in as a convicted felon, And he will always be a convicted felon. And at least the history books will have that. That is, of course, if Judge Marshawn does not reverse the case. So that case, despite people questioning it and questioning the wisdom and bringing it, the Manhattan DA's office has always done the right thing.

And here they are again. Yeah, I agree with you. I think Michonne is going to deny the emotion for immunity. I don't think it applies in this particular set of facts or crimes. And I think he's going to I think he has to be one third of the people who have been convicted for the for there's there's no exemplar comparator for what Donald Trump has done. Nobody's been convicted for the, there's no exemplar comparator for what Donald Trump has done. Nobody's been convicted of 34 felony counts

of business record fraud tied to an election crime to interfere with the outcome of a presidential election. So he is by himself. And one third of the cases, as other analysts have said, and determined jail time has resulted. I don't know how you avoid jail time for 34 felony count conviction under these circumstances in terms of a sentence. And you know, he's taken in a lot of data feeds as a judge is supposed to do.

He's got the pre-sentencing memorandum by your old office. He's got the one from the Trump people. I'm sure your office is asking for jail time, and Trump is asking to be exonerated and have a parade down Fifth Avenue. And then in between, you've got the probation or parole office, and they give an analysis, hopefully like the one you and I have just given,

where they say, oh, Judge, hopefully like the one you and I have just given, where they say, oh judge, here's the table, you know, here's, you know, 122 people have been charged convicted of this crime, and here's the people that actually got jail sentences and why, and that's gonna weigh on the mind of the judge. But he knows also that Donald Trump just got elected and that he's not gonna put him in jail between now and January or while he's president and so anything that happens can be suspended for him to serve his time after. I don't think he rolls the sentencing hearing off four years but he can he can suspend it for a period of time and then say you

know the day after you come out, sir, you're going in. And so we're going to watch that closely. I think it's immunity denied, some sort of sentence suspended for the duration. And then you've got those, I'll touch on the other people. Steve Bannon starts a state court, not federal court trial on the build the wall fraud in December. First week of December. That's a state court. That's not federal. He can't get pardoned for it. on the build the wall fraud in December, first week of December. That's a state court, that's not federal,

he can't get pardoned for it, as you outlined so eloquently last week, no double jeopardy, because they never started the trial against him the first time around when he got pardoned. That's what happens, you're pardoned too soon. When you're pardoned too soon, then state courts can step in with state prosecutors

and try the case that they should have tried originally. So you got Bannon, and he's looking, that could be five, I've seen the range five to seven years. If that jury convicts him of mail fraud and conspiracy and money laundering, he's going away for quite some time. Now he can take an appeal, but the appeal is going to be to one of those friendlier courts that we kicked off the podcast with, the Second Circuit through New York. Oh no, actually it's a state court, as I said. So it's going

to go up to the Court of Appeals in New York and all of that. Rudy Giuliani. I did a hot take on this. Rudy Giuliani is in deep crap Thursday. He's got a hearing in front of Judge Lyman he's gonna have to explain to Judge Lyman why he Took all he moved all of his personal belongings and all the things that were the subject of a restraining order Out of his apartment in New York leaving it bare like old mother Hubbard for when Ruby Freeman and shame awesome They're hundred fifty million dollars came as the receivers to collect up all their all of his personal Items big hearing on thursday court ordered that rudy juliani show up in person He showed up. He showed up to vote in the car. Okay, there was like he he had lauren bacall's mercedes

Exactly, he drove he he is he pulled up in florida in the lauren bacall mercedes That he is ordered to turn over to Shay Moss and Ruby Freeman He is basically giving the biggest finger to the rule of law and to these judges I hope he is put in and held in control I think he will and judge Lyman's nobody to f with his father as we all know is On our side of the aisle on our side of the aisle, on our side of the microphone, is the lawyer, was a lawyer's lawyer, well-respected criminal defense lawyer. Arthur Lyman, it's a

family business. He's not going to take this. And if Rudy Giuliani thinks because he's put the stuff in Florida, he's going to avoid the court ordering through a marshal. I've said this on the hot take. Rudy better bring his toothbrush on Thursday. I'm not sure he goes home. I think he may go to jail for contempt and then have to turn over it because the judge, right? The judge gave him one free pass to do it voluntarily with a court order and a restraining order over all of the items not to preserve them and he then took them to Florida. I think he's take the toothbrush with you out of because I think under 500 Pearl Street, you might be in the

tank by the time that hearing is there. We'll report on it right here. Look, that there's, this is the flip side of something, a conversation that Ben and I had four and a half years ago. It's hard to believe. We founded Legal AF right out of the first election. And when COVID hit, and then forward, so this is really our first election, complete cycle that we just ended here in MidasTouch. And at the time about law, about lawsuits, about litigation, about the intersection of law and politics, we said to ourselves, is there enough to talk about? And then of course, Donald Trump went on a crime

spree in broad daylight that made its way through state and federal courts up to the United States Supreme Court. And yes, there was, but going forward, there is going to be now, and when he gets into office, many, many cases that we're gonna have to talk about and analyze at the intersection of law and politics in order to rein him in. Now we're going to see, before people may have been disappointed, and rightly so, about

things like Merrick Garland tapping his foot for nine or 10 months and we lost the cycle that would have gotten Donald Trump potentially in jail before he decided to declare he was running for president. But that was the justice system straining under what to do about a guy who already committed the crimes, not about his policies, but about his actions and his conduct. And then when he declared

that he was running for president again, in order to avoid all these things. Now we're talking about the justice system, Karen and an entirely new but very normal for the justice system to deal with which is policy which is law which is constitutional issues and things like that. You and I we don't have time to talk about it today but we're going to talk about is Donald Trump going to try to run all of his businesses from the White House perch? Is he going to try to run all of his businesses from the White House perch? Is he going to try to run truth social from there? Why turn it, his mindset might be, why turn it over to a blind trust or my son?

Right, he's immune. I can just, I'm immune and I can just run it. But there's some, there's some fringe arguments there about the Emoluments Clause, about his global power. There's things that we need to continue. And it's's not just gonna be us idly like looking at our navels, talking about it. It's about putting it into action through lawyers and law firms and courts and court systems. And that's really kind of the takeaway,

if there was a takeaway from this particular podcast that I wanted you and I to sort of kick around in front of our audience and compliment them, of course, for being here. I think at one point we had 15,000 people here. You know, sure, we were thinking when you were in the in the in despair and so was I when I woke up, you know, I was thinking, God, I wonder if anybody's going to join us today. I want them to, because I think the community is important. I think being with the community is important. And this is not the time for progressives and free-thinking people to

give up and get off the playing field and cede it to the Republicans. This is the opposite. It's time for us to step forward as a party. And there's a lot of commentary about, and I'm going to get into the weeds here, about, oh my god, we lost subscribers. Where'd they all go? Like I'm not worried about losing our subscribers anybody that's a true Follower listener With us been with us since the beginning OG original original person with us. They're here the rest of the people I don't know where they came in wet, but now it's not the time to kind of quit the scene

Now is the time to double in double down lean in we're here to do exactly that and Can't think of a better person to do it every every Wednesday and on hot takes it over on the legal AF YouTube channel Take a minute there free subscribe signal to the algorithmic gods that you want the channel to be durable to survive Both the YouTube channel your AF, and the Midas Touch Network. Now's the time that we circle the wagons and organize and get systemic and systematic, not run away and hide. And so that's what I love about this community and being

here with you, Karen. Karen, you're always great for the last word. You got it tonight. What do you got for our crowd? I mean, look, I do think it's important that we take a beat to feel our feelings, right? I am not one to deny us of that. I think we have to allow ourselves to feel horrible because this is horrible. And there is no sugar coating it. I the word I kept feeling this morning was despondent. And, and I'm actually feeling better, not because of the state of things, but because it's not hopeless. There is hope. And we can't quit. And we can't quit this community. We cannot leave each other and abandon each other. Things that we believe in still matter. The truth matters.

The law matters. Ethics matters. Being a good person matters. Being a moral person matters. Being a kind person matters. Accepting people for who they are, meeting them for where they are and wanting to help people and work with people. All these things still matter and and it's worth fighting for. It's worth not giving up. But we should also allow ourselves give give yourself space and grace to have your feelings. I'm doing it

and I'm gonna be upset and I'm gonna complain. And at the same time, I'm also going to look at the things that make me feel good, my kids, my grandson, and I'm going to hug them and be grateful that I have those things and that I have this country and that we live in a democracy. And that's the beauty of this country is that it's a democracy. And right now, this is what our democracy has chosen.

Our democracy has chosen right or wrong. And that's what makes this country great is whether you agree with it or you don't, you don't steal the election, you don't try to take over by force, you accept it with grace, you have a peaceful transition of power. I mean, I was pissed this morning when Joe Biden

and Kamala Harris called Trump to congratulate him. I was like, why'd they do that? They shouldn't do that. They should be like, F you, you know, and like ignore him. He doesn't deserve congratulations. But you know what they did because they're the bigger people because they care about something other than themselves, which is this country. And that is what they are going to be doing is they're going to rise above it. They're not going to turn into the low life that is Donald Trump. He's a lying carnival barking grifter. I hope I don't get

put in jail for saying that, but that's how I feel. I'll bail you out. That's how I feel. And this community, there's strength in numbers. Don't hide. Don't go running scared. We stay together. We fight together. We win over hearts and minds. And we will be, this is not going to be the way it is forever. it can't because this is wrong this is bad and and evil does not always win right good triumphs over evil sometimes you have to fight and sometimes you you you lose the you lose the battle but you win the war and and and that's what the war is about and and so because we aren't savages we are going to accept this and we are going to have a peaceful transfer of power.

And we're not going to lie about it. We're not going to say the election was rigged unless it turns out that it was or, you know, whatever it is. No, but like, you know, whatever I, I, I, I, I can, I can get a little, you know, I, I've been reading these, I've been reading, uh, a lot of social media today where they're talking about 20 more, 25 million more people registered but 20 million less votes. The math doesn't add up. And I'm like, well, what about that? But I'm trying to, I'm sure people will get

to the bottom of that. I'm trying to not go down that rabbit hole and I'm trying to look forward. And I'm trying to say, okay, what are we gonna do to go forward? So I know this is, I know it's a long last word but I really want to express this because I am so in this emotionally as well as as every other way. And I think other people are

feeling that too. And I want to just, you know, say thank you to this community for for being there and being, you know, being a place a safe space that we can all go and fight together. This is the beginning, not the end. This too shall pass. We will recover from this. We'll do it here on the Midas Touch Network. We'll do it here on Legal AF. We'll have another show on Saturday with Ben Mycelis. We're doing kind of daily briefings on the Midas Touch Network as well.

And of course, we're over on the new Legal AF YouTube channel. Take a moment if you haven't already. Now would be a good time to join our community. Link arms and go shoulder to shoulder with us here on Legal AF, the YouTube channel, and on the Midas Touch Network. So until our next Legal AF on this Saturday, and then of course, we'll be behind the microphone

as much as we can every day, every hour, someplace. I'm Michael Popok and I'm joined by Karen Friedman-Iknifilow.