Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Trump CAN’T HANDLE the HEAT from Jack Smith

Episode Date: June 25, 2023

Anchored by MT founder and civil rights lawyer, Ben Meiselas and national trial lawyer and strategist, Michael Popok, the top-rated news analysis podcast Legal AF is back for another hard-hitting look at the most consequential developments at the intersection of law and politics. On this week’s edition, the anchors discuss: 1) the Special Counsel announcing to the world that they are ready for a fast criminal trial against Trump in the Mar a Largo case; 2) Trump’s main henchman in the fake elector scheme, Michael Roman’s cooperation with the Special Counsel giving the prosecution the highest level person in Trump’s camp to cooperate; 3) the former chief judge of the DC Circuit sanctioning Rudy Giuliani to pay attorney’s fees and costs for his failure to comply with discovery orders in the defamation case brought against him by two Fulton County Georgia election workers; 4) developments in the e Jean Carroll defamation case including Trump arguing that he is not a rapist but only a sex abuser in an effort to save $4 million off the jury verdict and to save more money, posts his appeal bond in cash in the case, and so much more. DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS! HENSON SHAVING: Visit https://HensonShaving.com/LEGALAF to pick the razor for you and use code LEGALAF for 2 years worth of free blades! AG1: Go to https://drinkAG1.com/LEGALAF and get 5 free AG1 Travel Packs and a FREE 1 year supply of Vitamin D with your first purchase! MIRACLE MADE: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://TryMiracle.com/LEGALAF and use the code LEGLAF to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. SUPPORT THE SHOW: Shop LEGAL AF Merch at: https://store.meidastouch.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/meidastouch Remember to subscribe to ALL the Meidas Media Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 The Weekend Show: https://pod.link/1612691018 The Tony Michaels Podcast: https://pod.link/1561049560 American Psyop: https://pod.link/1652143101 Burn the Boats: https://pod.link/1485464343 Majority 54: https://pod.link/1309354521 Political Beatdown: https://pod.link/1669634407 Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://pod.link/1676844320 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Filing, filing, filing, filing, filing, special counsel, Jack Smith has made multiple major filings in the federal criminal case against Donald Trump in the federal court for the Southern District of Florida this week. Popo, have you ever seen this many filings in a case like this done so quickly. Special Council Jack Smith is pushing for a 20 23 trial date has already confirmed to the court that his team has turned over mostly all non classified records to

Trump's legal team and that they went above and beyond their discovery obligations at this point. This is some of the most efficient, I would say the most efficient department of justice work I have ever seen. And special counsel Jack Smith has also made another filing where he notes that he has at least get this 84 witnesses against Donald Trump 84 witnesses. But Jack Smith is not stopping there. Jack don't stop this week. We saw major developments in special counsel, Jack Smith's other criminal case, his other criminal investigation into

Donald Trump's election interference. More witnesses went before the criminal grand jury in Washington, DC. That is investigating Trump's 2020 election interference. And we've learned that Jack Smith may be closer to entering into a proper agreement. Don't worry, we'll explain what that means. With the head of Donald Trump's election day operations, the individual who led Trump's criminal fake electors scheme, who's ready apparently to spill the dirt, Trump's top people are flipping. Sanctions incoming Rudy Giuliani has been sanctioned by a federal judge in Washington DC, the famous Judge Barrel Howell for discovery abuses in the defamation

case filed against him by Georgia election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss. The federal judge, Barrel Howell, had enough of his games and she brought down the barrel hammer, the barrel howell hammer and the dumb such a geek and the Donald Trumps and Donald Trumps lawyers keep making humiliating filings in the E. Jean Carroll case, where a jury awarded E. Jean Carroll $5 million, including essentially admitting that Trump couldn't secure a bond for his appeal. So he wants to deposit cash that's currently being held in Joe Takapina's client trust account.

We will break this all down on this episode of legal a F. I'm Ben Myceles joined by Michael Popeok a lot going on. But you know, you think about where we were last week, where we are today, special counsel, Jack Smith is basically the fighter pilot, the fighter jet pilot of prosecutors, he's saying, let's go. Well, this starts from the, yeah, you're right. This starts from the very beginning. Day one of him being appointed seven months ago, he issued four subpoenas. You and I, we did hot takes on that then.

I was like, wow, he's really ready to go. Right. He is ready to go. Look what he's accomplished, pardon me, in seven months. More importantly, for this particular case, and we're going to talk about it in the podcast a little later on, Jack Smith's not done. And now that he's got the indictment under his belt, he's going to use a new weapon in his arsenal against other witnesses and his other prosecutions. And that's fear.

That's fear in Trump world, because it's no longer what if he indicts, it's he's already indicted in Mar-a-Lago, and he's coming to you next, because he's not done. This is the destroyer of all Trump world, Jack Smith. And so we weren't surprised you and me, and our audience shouldn't be either

because of the way we've been reporting and analyzing up until now. That Jack was Jack Smith's team was waiting until they had not just the ability to obtain an indictment from the grand jury for all things Mar-a-Lago, but were ready for trial. That's why a lot of us were saying, you know, some people were saying, well, why just

in date, you know, a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. That's an old joke. Right. But a federal prosecutor that is careful and conscientious like Jack Smith doesn't want to do it until he knows he has every witness, every document, every video, every audio, every piece of evidence ready so that in case, in case the, there's no waiver of the speedy trial act where there's not other issues you and I will talk about on the podcast, he's ready to go within 70 or 150 days to try a case.

And that's what we're seeing right on the heels two days ago of Jack Smith doing a data dump, a data dump of all non classified evidence to Donald Trump, all everything except for the classified stuff, which is in a separate category. He produced in record time one big package, which demonstrates to the world the judge and the opposing counsel and Donald Trump that that the prosecution is loaded for bear on this trial. So he when he produced all this stuff, Ben, he said effectively, there are three parts to our production. We're giving you all the documents obtained by subpoena of any party, all witnesses in this case, and defense you're getting them here now.

We're giving you what we got from search warrants. We'll give you all the grand jury transcripts, both of the District of Columbia and the Southern District of Florida. We'll give you our witness interview notes. Then we have a separate batch of hot docs. We'll give you our key docs of all the photographs and documentation. And by the way, we have closed circuit television video

cameras, which is the, I'm sure the Trump organization, video feeds for outside the storage rooms and other spots that Mar-a-Lago. And we'll give you those and we'll tell you where in the video you can find the incriminating evidence. But we're not done. We will give this like a late night, a late night sales show that's going to be selling knives and

juicers soon. We'll also give you all of the classified evidence as soon as you get your security clearance. And we're going to put you on fast track for that. We'll get you your security clearance within 40 days or so. So you'll get all of that. And then you can come over and you can inspect everything that's not classified that we pulled out of Mar-a-Lago with a special inspection. You can do all that. We'll give you Walton out as, now does FBI investigation notes, interview notes. We'll give you his grand jury transcript that shows basically that he lied. We'll give you public statements by Donald Trump that we're relying on and we'll give you other statements recorded of Donald

Trump by other people. Hint hint Margot marks your assistant will give you that too. And then you'll get the classifieds and that is the read that was done today is going you and I were like holy shmigoli. Look at the amount of stuff, basically almost their entire trial file. They're turning over right now. Why? Because two days later, they were going to file the motion for continuance and ask, yes,

for a continuance, but a very short continuance. Right in the ballpark that you and I talked about in past and I talked about Karen Ben. I said, end of the year, first quarter, he's going right around my birthday, December, the whatever, the 13th or the 14th. And he's and he's saying, yeah, that would be appropriate. That gives the defense time to get all their security issues resolved for the classified documents. It gives us time to get prepared.

It gives the public time, because people forget the speedy trial statute, which is why everybody's been relying on to set this thing 70 days out, is not just for the defendant to get to trials in a speedy fashion. It's for the public, there's a public component to it that the public had confidence in our justice system and that people go to trial quickly as as opposed to in dictatorships, where people go to trial years later. We have a reporter for the Wall Street Journal who's sitting in a Russian prison who just got extended another 12 weeks

of pre-hearing detention. We don't do that here. We try to get the trial quickly. Now the ball is back in the court for the defense, for Todd Blanch and Chris Keiss for Donald Trump to file their own paper, which they're going to because it was anticipated in the filing, opposing the date, not the continuance, the date. They don't like December.

Of course, they want to put it like after the primaries, maybe after the election some other time. But now you have the push pull. Judge set the marker of August. A DOJ says August won't work, judge, how about December? And now you're going to have the push pull as the defense rolls in, it files their opposition papers. The other fascinating thing, Ben, was what you said is the earlier filing also two days ago, in which for people to remember, the Magistrate judge who arraigned Donald Trump,

Magistrate Goodman in Miami, set a special condition. He actually set a special condition for release of Donald Trump that the DOJ didn't even ask for. But he said, I'm not going to let him talk to witnesses without lawyers present, including the one that works for him right now, Walt Nowda. So I'm imposing that special condition. And I want the Department of Justice to develop a list on their own.

And that's the list of witnesses that will not be contacted by Donald Trump by name at all. And now the Department of Justice has 84 names, as you said, Ben. And they dropped a footnote and said, that's at all. And now the Department of Justice has 84 names, as you said, Ben. And they dropped a footnote and said, that's not all. We have more witnesses potentially at trial, but these are the eight, the hot 84.

We don't want Donald Trump to talk to without a lawyer to try to influence their testimony. And they're prepared to give those names to the defense and give them to the magistrate judge, but they want to do it under seal, meaning they don't want all the those names revealed at the present time. So that issue of whether that that sealing is going to happen is going to be in front of I would suspect good men again, although it could go back to judge Reinhardt, the magistrate

judge. I don't think it's a canon issue. I think it's a magistrate judge issue, which will be decided between one of those two magistrate judge. I don't think it's a canon issue. I think it's a magistrate judge issue, which will be decided between one of those two magistrate judges. The other side's probably going to be like 84 is too big. That's too many people. We want to be able to talk to witnesses. They'll be a fight over the number that are on the list. And then they'll be a fight over the ceiling, although I'm not sure Donald Trump really wants all the names revealed of all these people. So I want to hear your opinion, Ben, as to whether he fights over ceiling versus not ceiling

this amount. But if anybody that take away from these three filings for me is they're ready to try this case like now. If it wasn't for the classified documents issue that needs more time for the defense to get their security clearance, Jack Smith and his team, you know, the lead lawyers there are ready to go to trial and say, ready, pick a jury. And of course, the defense is not. All right. So first addressing whether I think Donald Trump's lawyers are going to object to the ceiling of the names. I don't think they care about the actual ceiling of the names, I don't think they care about the actual ceiling of the witness names. I think they care about the list and they are going to object to the fact that they claim

that they should be able to, that Donald Trump should be able to have conversations with his criminal cook and spiriters without having to go through lawyers as intermediaries and that that restriction shouldn't apply to all 84 people. But the reason why I say that is if you go to footnote 2 in the filing, government's motion to implement special condition of release, it says the following footnote 2, the government has conferred with counsel for defendant Trump and defendant now to about this motion. They have authorized the government's council to represent the following. Defense, meaning Trump and Nauta, take no position on the government's motion to seal the list

of witnesses, but the defense reserves the right to object to the special condition and the manner in which it is implemented by the government by providing a list of 84 witnesses in purported compliance with and then we'll talk about Judge Goodman's order. So they don't have an issue with it being filed under seal. I'm not going to object to that, but the conditions imposed by Judge Goodman, that Trump can have any communications with witnesses directly about the case. You can have communications with the witnesses, just not about the case. If it's about the case, it has to go through lawyers. We can see a situation where Trump's lawyers object to that. But let's break down a lot of the things that you said there, Popeye.

First off, your use of the term holy shmagoli. I want to give you credit for that. That's not a legal term out there for anybody wondering, I'm more of a holy Shemoli guy, but you kind of went Shemagoli. So I'm good with that. I'm good with that. Second, when it comes to the discovery dump, Donald Trump loves dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps. Actually, he hates dumps. He must hate because he always talks about. But he certainly will hate this document dump right here

by Special Counsel Jack Smith. When Jack Smith went above and beyond what his discovery obligations are. You mentioned the categories of documents we're talking about, you know, the Grand jury testimony and witness statements that were done outside the presence of Grand jury, witness list, photograph, CCTV surveillance, footage, essentially all the non-classified documents in the possession

and custody and control of the Special Counsel, Jack Smith's team, was turned over to Donald Trump's lawyers. And the timing of it, though, just to give everybody perspective, this is stuff that is eventually turned over by the Department of Justice. But oftentimes the Department of Justice in cases will wait to turn stuff over on the eve of trial. They'll turn it over in different kind of tranches of documents here. Special Counsel Jack Smith just turned everything over right away, basically signaling, hey,

we are ready to go. Also special counsel Jack Smith's team essentially dummy-proofed it for Donald Trump. And you alluded to this in what you were saying, which is, Jack Smith flagged for Donald Trump's lawyers, the key portions that the government is going to use at trial already. And saying, look, we'll give you all this surveillance footage. But we understand it's a lot. Jack Smith doesn't say this, but, we'll give you all this surveillance footage, but we understand it's a lot. Jack Smith doesn't say this, but we get that, you know, your crew isn't the brightest, you know, and you're going to claim that it's

going to take you a long time to look through these records. But we've done the work for you. So we've actually summarized kind of minute by minute what goes down in these videos, the key portions. If you don't trust us, you can go through it yourself, but we're not going to deviate for purposes of the trial on the portions that we intend to use. And we're going to share that with you right away. So dummy proofing it right away. And speaking about kind of dummy proofing it right away, I also think special counsel Jack Smith's team learned a lot of lessons from how Judge Eileen Cannon handled her docket or rather I should say, mishandled

her docket. The last time around where Donald Trump initiated the Trump, the United States case and Judge Eileen Cannon improperly unlawfully asserted jurisdiction, didn't know what she was doing was overturned in a very strongly worded opinion by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals twice. So to me, a lot of these filings that are being made, you know, really four major ones that were filed this week, the one that you mentioned, giving notice to Judge Eileen Cannon that all of these documents were turned over, and then these three others that I'm about to talk about, they're also educating Judge Eileen Cannon on what to do and you know that scene from

I wish I remember the movie but everyone will say it in the comments. Tell me the movie. Tell me the movie. The scene. Tell me the movie. The scene. The scene. Tell me the movie.

Tell me the movie. Tell me the scene. Tell me the movie. Tell me the scene. Tell me the movie. Tell me the scene. he goes, you know, it's my ship now. It's my, you know, this is my ship now. That's kind of what special counsel Jack Smith is doing here. He's saying, this is my court, you know, you may be the judge, Judge Eileen Ganon, but let me explain to you how we do things and classified information procedure. I guess, Crimson Todd, Gene Hackman, and then saw Washington. No, no, no, it's the time it's the time hangs movie. Um, with Oh, you're, oh, even Captain Philip say, say, say, the text, salty, save the day. I didn't know which catch the, which

we're talking about. My ship now or or the line is something like that. But that's what special counsel Jack Smith is saying here, you know, and a lot of people may have heard, you know, well, special counsel Jack Smith requested a continuance. Pope, pop, pop, Ben, what are you talking about here? You know, you know, what, why is he continuing the date? That's not aggressive. Well as Michael Popak alluded to at the outset, the date that was set by Judge Eileen Cannonwell, you all know this from watching Legal AF and our hot takes because we explain

this when the trial date is set unlike other programs that may not actually explain what these things are. Under the Speedy Trial Act, it's a federal law which interprets the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution that gives a criminal defend the right to a Speedy trial among other important rights that take place in a criminal trial. You have to set it within 70 days of the first appearance. But that doesn't mean that's going to be the date. Because if you look at paragraph 10 in Judge Eileen Cannon's Omnibus order that set the trial date

for August 14 of 2023, it talks about continuances in a SEAPA case, a classified information procedure is at case. And we had all discussed here on the show in a SEAPA case, a classified information procedures at case. And we had all discussed here on the show that Donald Trump's lawyers were going to be filing motions saying they need in more time, they're going to file motions to dismiss, they're going to be doing all of these things, that they don't have the discovery, they don't have all of these things.

So, special counsel Jack Smith needed to get ahead of that. So that's what this was. When special counsel Jack Smith filed this motion, again, I'll go through the three motions, and this one's called the Governments Motion for Continuence and Proposed Revise Scheduling Order. Here it is right there for those watching on YouTube. We're posting the document and says

for the reasons discussed below, the government files this motion to continue the trial date to December 11, 2023, and then to propose associated deadlines. What special counsel Jack Smith is saying is that is the hard and fast day. That's the day we're ready to go. We want trial in 2023. And we know that Donald Trump's lawyers are going to object to that. And how

do we know that they're going to object to that? Well, it says it. Defense Council confirmed they do not. It's in that same paragraph. Defense Council confirmed they do not oppose an adjormant of the current trial date and request a status hearing with the court to address the schedule in this action. Defense Council anticipate filing an opposition to this motion addressing their objection to the government's proposed date. So what that means is what we've been saying all along, right? That what Trump is going to request, this is what Popak said before, what Trump is going to say is, we need, this is my prediction. He hasn't filed this yet, but I can almost say with 99% certainty in Popak, correct me if you think I'm wrong, here that he wants to have trial within 90 days after the 24,

the 2024 election or even thereafter. He may even say, we want to have a status conference after the 2024 election or even there after. He may even say, we wanna have a status conference after the 2024 election, and let's hold a trial setting conference that not even set the trial date then. But his big play here is to kick this trial after 2024, and that's gonna be the major decision that we hear from Judge Eileen Cannon,

is she gonna kick this thing and buy those arguments until after the 2024 election? Or is she going to follow here, Special Council Jack Smith saying December 11th of 2023? Or is Special Council Jack Smith here even posturing a little bit saying, okay, if I say December 11, 2023, Trump says after 2024, there's a compromise date and that puts it more like in early 2024. So that's what Special Counsel Jack Smith is doing here. The two other motions that were filed, one's called the government's motion to implement special conditions of release

and the other one ones called the government motion for a pre-trial conference, pursuant to the classified information procedures act, and appointment of a classified information security officer, Popok hit both of these. I just wanted to show you the official titles there. The government's motion to implement the special conditions of release, as Pope-Ock mentioned that addresses magistrate judge Goodman's a special condition that Donald Trump couldn't speak to the witnesses Directly and the government wants to make clear here are the 84 witnesses that are subject to that special condition

I think this will go before judge Ryan Hart not judge Goodman. I think judge will go before Judge Reinhardt, not Judge Goodman. I think Judge Goodman was just the duty judge for that day. So I think Reinhardt will ultimately hear this. And then there's the government's motion for a pre-trial conference. And this is Special Counsel Jack Smith just saying, Judge, we are ready to go. Let's set a trial, let me educate you on the classified information procedures act. And that's essentially what it says is we need to have a hearing. Let's go through the steps, let's go through the security clearance process. But really, as I said, it's Jack Smith saying to Judge Eileen Cannon, we got this, follow along, and you're not going to look humiliated again. And to tie a neat bow around this, the weakness of Donald Trump, the weakness of what's going on with these

Maga Republicans right now, I also think it's not coincidental that we see what's going on in Russia right now is very much linked because those very much linked because those forces, the MAGA Republican forces and Putin's kind of forces, that whole propaganda base is very much inextricably intertwined. I want to talk more about special counsel. Jack Smith's other criminal investigation regarding Donald Trump's election interference. Why I think Donald Trump's never been weaker and more vulnerable than he is right now and Popeyes, to your point, how special counsel Jack Smith has just scared the crap and shock an all-fashioned in anybody in Trump's world. I want to get all your take on that, but first let's take a quick break. Oh, hey, I didn't see you there.

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how you can get these legal-a-f emojis on YouTube and the Jack Smith emojis on YouTube. What you got to do is on the bottom of the YouTube chat, there's that dollar sign. You could purchase memberships in the Midas Touch YouTube channel and that enables the use of emojis. And if you're already a member, you can buy memberships for other people. And then you could ask to receive a gift if you want to be on the receiving end of the membership gifts right there.

So that's how you do that. And go to store.mitus.com for those convict or convict 45 pins. Jury always wants me to mention that. I really like those pins. We got a bunch of other great legal AF gear as well. So Michael PoePock, we've got a lot of action as well going on in the grand jury in Washington, DC. Special counsel Jack Smith can get the expression walking to gum at the same time. He could be prosecuting a trader in the Southern District of Florida while criminally investigating the trader in Washington DC

What's up? What do we know that's going on? Yeah, before I get there, I want to wrap up something in our prior which will lead into the segment The other thing that I found Amazing is Jack Smith telling the judge judge cannon in terms of scheduling That this is not a complicated case at all. In fact, if we look back at that quote, he said in his filing and his motion for continuance, that this case is not unusual or complex. It's not novel. It doesn't have any novel law questions.

It's straightforward on theories of liability and it only has two defendants. Now, you know the other side is going to say, this is historical. This is the first time presidential records act. That's being odd, Jack. Not the Jack Smith. The Jack Smith, this is the run of the mill garden variety. Somebody stole, used, didn't return government and NDI national defense information and should be prosecuted for it.

It's not novel. It's straightforward. It involves two defendants and we don't need a lot more time to prepare. If it wasn't for the security issues, your honor, we'd be ready to try the case right now. That strength, that power, that muscularity is now what he brings forward when he looks witnesses in the eye. His team looks witnesses in the eye and says, you either testify, cooperate to the grand jury,

or go look what just happened to other people in your orbit on the Mar-a-Lago matter. You think we're screwing around? We're not screwing around. That gives the prosecution an extra special sense of power and another arrow in their quill that they can use against people. We rarely have a situation where a prosecutor, like Jack Smith, has multiple grandjuries and multiple separate, sometimes separate, sometimes connected investigations of one person and those around him. That's rare. Usually it's one grand jury and we have one indictment. It might be an omnibus indictment that covers a lot of different ground, but we rarely have that. And Jack Smith is using that to his advantage, right? He's using the pressure that builds. So now when he reaches somebody,

He's using the pressure that builds. So now when he reaches somebody, like Michael Roman and G. Michael Brown, who were the two lead henchmen for Donald Trump, John Eastman, Peter Navarro and Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis to implement the fake electric scandal scheme. He's not the architect of it, but those two guys as the director of election day operations for the Trump team and the deputy director of election day operations, they

are now getting, for those that are watching it on YouTube, getting squeezed. There's lower regions of their body that are now at a vice. And they're getting squeezed because what they once were able to do, which was to flout and thumb their nose at the Jan 6th Committee and not cooperate there, they can't do it with a prosecutor that has a taste for blood, okay, that already has indicted Donald Trump, their former boss. So all they got to do is say, hey, remember when you're playing games with us about the terms on which you would cooperate, why don't you go check what's going down at Mar-a-Lago, your next. And I'm sure they haven't said exactly that, but they might have said exactly that

in negotiations, because now all the little rabbits are running scared because they got to cut a deal. Otherwise, they're going to go down like they're boss. They're going holy crap, holy cow or holy shmagoli, which seems to be a theme for today. They just got, my boss, Trump just got indicted. What? Me, I got no shot at avoiding indictment, and that's what they're telling them. So now Michael Roman, who is, it's remarkable that he is the highest level of person on the fake electors scandal scheme to cooperate with the government. There is reporting that he is working out a profit deal for immunity.

Could be what we call queen for the day immunity, meaning you come in and whatever you say that day as long as it's truthful, you don't lie to the government and putting your statement on the record, which it'll be on the record under oath. We won't use that against you in prosecuting you. We haven't decided whether we're going to prosecute record under oath, we won't use that against you in prosecuting you. We have decided whether we're going to prosecute you yet, but we won't use your own words against you if we independently develop that information fine. That's queen for the day, or they give a full immunity because they just are like salivating the prosecutors that they got the highest level person, along with his other, his other henchmen, G. Michael Brown, who ran around and actually delivered

the fake electors' ballots, if you will, to Congress, who were coordinating, there was one state, I don't remember which one exactly, because there were seven states that they were trying to use this, the scheme of having phony electors certify that they were for Trump, not Biden. And then have, of course, for this scheme to work, Michael Pence, Mike Pence sitting there as the president of the Senate had to recognize these ballots or have one of the crazy Congress people, the Maga Congress people, their senators jump up and say, oh, there's the other ballots that need to be evaluated.

We need to delay delay and recognize them. And then Mike Pence was supposed to, you know, if he's following the script, which he wasn't, he would have said, well, you're right. I think we need to throw this over to the House to investigate or to vote for the president. Use that instead of the delegates, which would have led to a Trump victory because if you do it by House vote, most of the state delegations are Republican in those kind of numbers. So that would have been terrible, but that was the plan. Johnny Smith helped develop it, the absent-minded professor who came up with all these crazy

legal schemes and theories was about to lose his law license. Peter DeVaro involved. Jenna Ellis Rudy Giuliani there was Sidney Powell to implement it. Lawyers around the country, the battleground states joined forces with these people, but the coordinator on the ground, Michael Roman and G. Michael Brown. And if Michael Roman is cooperating, that spells disaster for Donald Trump. He's now brought in, then, uh, and, Jack Smith's brought in into the fake electors grand jury. In the last week alone, half a dozen witnesses, including cooperating witnesses and those he's given

some level of immunity, including the two highest level GOP officials in Nevada, the head of the GOP in Nevada, and his assistant have both been given limited immunity to testify, Michael McDonald and another guy's name, I always butcher. So for those that think, oh, he must be done. His lust for convictions is over. Mar-a-Lago is enough for Jackson Smith. It's not. It's not. The next is fake electors. Then it's going to be the Jan 6th and what happened on that day in the Willard Hotel and otherwise. And then it's going to be the Gryfft, which is the money that was raised on the backs of the lie by Donald Trump and put into his pack coffers and all of that. And all of that is still going on.

But now with a very, a new superpower for Jack Smith, which is, you see, which has happened to the guy next to you, that's happened to you next. Get into that box and testify for the government or cooperate with us. And now they're all scurrying to do that. Whether you want to call it a crescendo or a Coda or you pick the term, but it's kind of like the end of a firework show, right?

When you think about the proceedings before the grand jury, and we saw this happen with the grand jury that was investigating Trump for the willful retention of national defense information, right? There was this huge flurry of Activity and then there was a quiet period for 20 days an eerie quiet period and what did we say was happening during that time period? We said well what's happening is a special counsel Jack Smith is now writing, the charging memoranda to be sent to Attorney General Merrick Garland, because ultimately Merrick Garland is going to have to approve the decision to prosecute as we said when it came to the

willful retention of National Defense Information and obstruction of justice, we said that we strongly believe Merrick Garland was going to approve it. Merrick Garland did approve it and the rest is history there. So I think we're seeing something similar happen right here in the investigation of election interference by Special counsel, Jackson Smith, you mentioned the Willard hotel, the five star beautiful hotel in Washington, DC that only magna could freaking defile and turn into basically their war room for overthrowing our democracy. But that's what the Willard Hotel turned into. Willard Hotel is steps away from the White House.

It's right there in Washington, D.C., right around all of the government buildings. And that was used by people like Roger Stone and Mike Flynn and I think Alex Jones was there. And you have this whole group. Mark Meadows wanted to be there. Giuliani was there. You remember Mark Meadows told Cassidy Hutchinson that he wanted to go. And then Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony before the January 6th committee. She basically said, what are you doing? You don't go there. And apparently Mark Meadows called in and didn't actually go to the Willard Hotel itself.

But why I'm mentioning the Willard Hotel is that there was another development this week. That's a little bit more under the radar, but I think very important. A host for one of Alex Jones' shows Info Wars, somebody by the name of Owen Shroyer agreed to a cooperation agreement agreed to plead guilty for his involvement in the January 6th insurrection and also agreed to cooperate with the Department of Justice. Why is Owen Shroyer's cooperation agreement in guilty plea important? Well, first off, if you go into the cooperation agreement, it says cooperation with additional investigation. Oh,

insurer, your client agrees to allow law enforcement agents to review and social media accounts operated by your client for statements and postings in and around January 6, 2021 prior to sentencing. And Owen Shroyer was at the Willard Hotel. He was in those rooms with Stone and Flynn and Alex Jones and Giuliani and all the Trump advisors as well who was in that room. So to get Shroyer to explain what was going down inside the Willard Hotel. At the same time, we now have Michael Roman talking about the fake elector scheme. I think that is all very much related. And just to remind everybody the various aspects of this

investigation by special counsel, Jack Smith, into election interference, I like to characterize it or categorize it into four categories. The first is like the day of the insurrection itself. And I think of the crimes of obstructing and official proceeding and seditious conspiracy. Based on how special counsel Jack Smith charged Donald Trump in the theft of the classified records. I would not be shocked if we even saw a seditious conspiracy charge being brought against Donald Trump,

but I think we will definitely see an obstruction of official proceeding charge. And also, there's kind of been proxy wars, if you will, being fought by the Department of Justice and agents of Donald Trump in other criminal cases where the Department of Justice has successfully prosecuted people under the obstruction of official proceeding. And you may recall from some of our prior reporting, for example, that a Trump appoint a judge, Judge Carl Nichols in a case involving very vile insurrectionists had made a ruling that obstruction of an official proceeding did not apply to those insurrectionists unless they physically like ripped up documents and shredded documents and Judge Carl Nichols

took a very restrictive view of the statute which made no sense. But ultimately that's not what the DC Circuit Court of Appeals held, which actually had ruled against him. So the Department of Justice has been successful against these other challenges, allowing the substruction of official proceeding charge to continue to be used in cases against insurrectionists. But the reason that's so critical is that's going to be a major charge against Donald Trump for the day of January 6 crime. So remember, four categories. One day of January 6, Donald Trump aides and abets an insurrection. Two, the fake electors, Donald Trump through his agents has individuals affixed their names to fraudulent electoral certificates, claiming Donald Trump won in states

where he did not win, sending those to then vice president Pence on January 6, where they wanted Pence to count the fake electoral certificates. And basically say, oh, it looks like these are the right ones, not the ones that were actually certified by the secretaries. They looks like Trump won. We're going to have to declare Trump the emperor. That's the fake electors scheme right there. Number three, wire fraud charges, campaign finance violation, money laundering. This is the conduct by Donald Trump with his various

political action, arms, and even ones that didn't exist. Trump said he was going to have an election defense fund, the election defense fund. Never even, even a real thing and it collected hundreds of millions of dollars. So that's part of special counsel, Jack Smith's criminal investigation. And then the fourth Donald Trump's threats made against state and local election officials. And within that category also include Trump having aides reach out to local mega people who would essentially steal election data from local election offices like we saw what happened in coffee county Georgia and then in other states where they like literally just stole election data from people and then

tried to manipulate the data and declarations to claim that Trump won when he didn't win. So I think special counsel Jack Smith has pretty much locked down most of those categories. And now we see him focus a lot on the fake electric part of it. And that's why we see these fake electors from Nevada coming in and they testified before the grand jury. That's why you saw Michael Roman and Roman's deputy come in as well. Let me give you the last word on this topic. I hope I could move on to the next one.

Yeah, shout out to the Gen 6 committee because they did a great job in organizing right along the same track that you just outlined and good to see the Jack Smith's following along in the footprints that was already laid down by the Gen 6 committee who did a valiant effort to publicize all these things to the American public. Back to Michael Roman for a minute, it's also it's also going to cause a lot of grief and sleepless nights for Boris Epstein because there are plenty of emails that have now been disclosed and are part of the investigation between Michael Roman and his lead person in the Trump world, in the Trump inter-circle, Boris Epstein, who is the fixer in-house general counsel

replacement for Michael Cohen. You can call it anything you want, but there's a lot of email traffic between Roman and Boris Epstein. So that's going to be a big problem for him. Boris Epstein's phone has already been picked up by the FBI. And although he parades himself around at various criminal hearings for Donald Trump, he himself is either a target or a witness. And we will find out as these indictments that you just outlined roll out. The other the best quote I've seen so far to indicate that people knew that we're working in the fake electors scheme, but this was phony, false, and fake is that there is an email from an Arizona lawyer, Jack Willencheck, where he is going back and

forth with Epstein, and he says the following. He says, so we're going to do fake electors and then these fake electors certificates, someone's going to object in Congress and then those fake elector votes are going to be counted. And then he later realizes that maybe he shouldn't be writing fake electors and he says to with a smiley emoji, he says the Boris Epstein and another email, let's call them alternate instead of fake electors. But that just shows willfulness, criminal intent, that everybody participating in this scheme, it wasn't us calling it the fake electors. They themselves that were participants in the conspiracy were calling it the fake electors scheme as well.

Wow. I knew where you were going with that quote, because I remember reading it, you know, and I was like, yeah, you know, and then at the end of it, he puts the smiley face emoji. And that's where fascism just meets complete and utter idiotic. We still have some other topics to discuss today. But first, let's take a quick break. Our next partner is HG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health.

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Thanks again to Miracle miracle made for sponsoring this episode. We are back live. I'm gonna grow the beard back now that I see it on those ads. I'm gonna grow the beard back. I mean, I don't I didn't want to say anything because I figured you were reading the comments section. But like, like, you know, all the live realization, you've arrived at the realization on your own. You mean like a, what's the one that somebody calls you? Some sort of rat mold. I was implementing you. I was implementing you.

And I was talking. Yeah. We have a lot of back then. That was someone early on. It was someone early on in the early days of the podcast. He knows who he knows who he is who said that my beard looked like the ass of a naked rat mole or something like that. And then he made his emoji the naked rat mole. And but I was just trying to compliment you Pope I can say that your beard

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Speaking of law and order, Judge Barrel Howell, federal judge in Washington, D.C., issued a sanctions order against Rudy Giuliani on Friday. I have a little bone to pick with Judge Barrel Howell because she did the sanctions order as a minute order and not unlike an ECF document. So the order is like in three font and really small and many, many, many paragraphs. So I had to look at it with like, you are a lot nerd.

I had to really kind of look at it with the magnifying glasses. I bought a magnifying glass to look at to look at Judge Barrel House order. But the essential point of the order, look, we've been covering what's been going on here, right? You got Ruby Freeman, Shay Moss, George Election Workers, defamed by Giuliani, Donald Trump and others who claim that they brought in secret thumb drives and they then Giuliani manipulated this video footage to selectively edit it to be like, you see, they were smuggling in the ballots and that's not what was happening at all.

And then Giuliani and Trump called Ruby Freeman and Shay Moth just horrific names and accused them of being criminals and drug dealers and like just all these really, really horrible things. So Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss filed a defamation case against Giuliani and the OAN network, OAN Settle. They didn't suit Trump probably because unfortunately they knew that that would just probably

cause a lot of headaches just to deal with because Trump was still in office at the time, was he going to assert an immunity, was that just going to take a look? They can still, I guess, potentially reserve the rights to bring them in, but I think they just wanted a clean shot to clear their name and not deal with any of that, which also goes to show you sometimes Trump's arousing litigation tactics, though, how they're weighed by a plaintiffs lawyer who has finite resources, but they've got great lawyers. Shay Moss and Ruby Freeman have done a great job here. OAN settled the case. The case remains against Rudy Giuliani.

Really since, I think March, maybe even earlier February, we've been seeing motions that have been filed by Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss's lawyers alerting the judge. Look, we've got fact discovery deadlines that are approaching in May, meaning that the period of time where documents are exchanged and depositions are taken, emails and text messages are produced, third-party subpoenas. That's approaching in May. Judge looks like Rudy Giuliani's playing games. We want to bring this to your attention. That started in March. Giuliani's like, no, I'm not. I just have to search for it. Then you fast forward by May, they were like, judge, this deadline's approaching. We told you this is what he was doing. He's a liar. We need these documents immediately

compel these documents. The judge in May orders Juliani to show up. Giuliani basically claims that he's broke and says, look, I'm $320,000 in a rears to this discovery vendor called Trust Point. They're the group that took all of my documents after the Department of Justice executed a search warrant. In the various litigations, I'm in. I owe them money so I can't get my documents. I'm too poor to participate in this case. So the judge said, okay, sign a declaration that shows your financial condition. Show us your financial condition, put it under penalty, a perjury, and get it in by whatever the date was. And then the date before it was due, Rudy Giuliani said, actually, I found the money.

I can pay for it now. So judge, I don't have to worry about, you don't have to worry about me doing that declaration, listing my assets and my financial condition. We are good to go. And then the judge was like, okay, but let me know what's going on, basically, in the parties. And then Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss's lawyers, then we're like, okay, Judge, he's still not turning over the records. Like, he still is not producing the records.

We're basically in the same place we were in in March, or February, when we brought this to your attention, and he's just been playing games. This was all a delay tactic. Issue sanctions against him, and compel him to produce all of these records. And you may recall from some of our other hot takes. Giuliani was using the name Helen on emails and he has this email address like Helen 1234, this other numbers, but Helen, whatever the numbers are, at Gmail. And that's how he would use

to communicate. So Freeman and Moss's lawyers were like, look, he didn't search that email account. He didn't search this email account. He's using all these aliases. He's not doing the most basic search, the most basic searches. You compel him to produce that and sanction him. And the court agreed. Judge Barrel Howell, we all know that name Barrel Howell. She's the judge presiding over this case.

She used to be the judge who presided over all of the disputes regarding the criminal grand juries that special counsel jack smith and frankly anybody any prosecutor who was presenting evidence before the grand juries in dc she would resolve those disputes as the presiding judge that got the baton got passed to judge jeb boseberg who's now the presiding judge who makes those decisions but But in federal court, the judges hear both criminal and civil cases, which is different than a lot of state court proceedings where you have just civil judges,

criminal judges, family law judges. So Judge Barrel Howell, he was criminal cases, civil cases. This is a civil case before. She ruled in this microscopic order that I needed a magnifying glass for. The Giuliani was going to be monetarily sanctioned and he had a turnover of the records. And now Ruby Freeman and Chey Moss's lawyers

need to submit a motion regarding their attorney fees. So now that they've been sanctioned, there is no monetary amount yet. Then they, but they will be entitled to get their fees for all of these motions. I'll get your take, Popeye. It's going to be a huge amount. I mean, they filed a lot of discovery motions. I would be surprised if these sanctions was under $100,000.

I think it'll be close to it. I mean, there were several motions, large law firm, doing a lot of work. I would expect hundreds of hours went into these filings. I think it's gonna be like 250. Sounds like a good number. And matches up with some other numbers in the case. For those, you know, Barrel Howell, you know, as we get caught up into the minutiae,

which is really, really important of sanctions against Rudy Giuliani. Sometimes we lose the forest for the trees. He is going to lose the defamation case brought by Ruby Freeman and Sheamus. I'm going to say it again. Rudy Giuliani is going to ultimately lose this the way that Fox News had a settle because they were going to lose against dominion. He is going to lose this. This is why OAN, the once co-defendant and that right-wing MAGA media network settled with the two of those plaintiffs and paid some undisclosed amount of money in a confidential settlement.

Rudy is, I don't know why he keeps jerking around with this case and doesn't settle it. And how do I know he's going to lose the case? I want to remind people what Barrel Howell wrote in her opinion, her order, when she denied Rudy Giuliani's motion to dismiss the case back about seven months ago. And in just in this one and a half paragraphs, you're going to know that this is, he is dead man walking, and why he's continuing to incur and subject themselves to penalties and sanctions on top of a future award by a jury against him or by a judge on summary judgment. I have no idea.

This is what the judge presiding had to say, the same judge that when she wasn't the chief judge overlooking overseeing all grand jury a process that you outlined Ben was also a working trial judge that handled a lot of Jan six sentencing. I mean she knows this matter and Donald Trump originally had a better than probably anybody in her capacity and she wrote, this is the beginning of her order, after the polls closed across the country on November 3, 2020, the first presidential election in US history to be conducted in the midst of a deadly global pandemic. The results in some states were immediately called with either former president Biden or then president Trump to clear the obvious winner. In other states, including Georgia, the margins of victory were substantially closer

and voters and candidates went to bed that night, not knowing who had won. As days passed, local and state election officials, here we go with Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss, diligently conducted the counting of absentee ballots and manual recounts, but the void of clear results became filled, with increasingly outlandish paranoia from those claiming the election was being stolen. Defendant, Rudolph Giuliani, a current media personality, and former politician once dubbed America's mayor, propagated and pushed that false narrative caught in the crossfire of Giuliani's campaign to undermine the legitimacy of the 2020 election

where plaintiffs Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss Freeman was a temporary election worker in Fulton County, Georgia, while Moss worked on Fulton County's absentee ballot operation. After Giuliani made a litany of statements and accusations against the plaintiffs, considering their activities as election workers, this suit ensued. He is going to lose this case on summary judgment before it even goes to a jury.

The only thing a jury's gonna have to ever do is figure out how big of a check to write on Rudy Giuliani's Checkbook, but once again like all of them Trump the leader of the leader of the world the army of magical thinkers They all think something's going to happen. I don't know an asteroid is going to hit the planet before they they get a judgment against them It's not going to happen. We're going to talk about Eugene Carroll next. There is Donald Trump is going to have to pay more than $5 million to Eugene Carroll. He's going to pay 10 million plus for continuing to defame her. Rudy's going to pay Shay Moss and Ruby Freeman.

Whatever he has left in his coffers, he's going to have to go underneath his mattress to find money and go check in the cushions of his couch. He is going to lose this. That he continues to struggle when caught by a cobra is just remarkable to me. But it is this insane delusional theory, this magical thinking theory that animates all of the top leadership around Donald Trump. And you use that term magical thinking, of course, because that was the exact language as you, as we all now know in the brief that was filed by E. Jean Carroll's lawyers,

Roberta Kaplan. And she uses the term sarcastically magical thinking and basically says because you know Donald Trump filed a motion to try to reduce the jury verdict Award For five million dollars to less arguing because the jury didn't find that he engaged in a rape that Trump claimed he won the case And so when you read this motion that's filed this week by E. Jean Carol's lawyer she goes this this week by E. Jean Carol's lawyer, she goes this perverse magical thinking where Trump engages in a sexual assault and he's celebrating that as a win. And we really need to think about that for a second. That's what Donald Trump did. And the fact that there are people who support him, there is a legal filing where Donald Trump is claiming that he won the case, essentially,

that was brought by E. Jean Carroll. And the jury was wrong in awarding monetary damages because Trump is arguing in this file, an illegal filing. It's Trump's filing. It's not like, oh, Ben, you're making this up. It's in a filing where Trump says, because the jury only found that he engaged in a only, and it it's not an only but that's how Trump argues it Sexual assault he actually won. He's the winner and You know, maybe in front of your Maggarelli that makes sense, but in front of judges and logical people That absolutely is abhorrent so that's something earlier that was filed in the e. Gene Carroll case by Roberta Kaplan, e. Gene Carroll's lawyer, and to your point, Pope, I mean, Trump

lost the first trial and then basically doubled, tripled, quadrupled down on the defamation. Because there are these factual findings that are now being made, that have been made by the jury in this E. Jean Carroll trial where he lost, there's not a lot to be decided in future cases. And so E. Jean Carroll and her lawyers could just go in front of the jury and say you have to stipulate that a sexual assault occurred, that the statements are false and defamatory.

And what is the value now that you would place jury. If another jury awarded five million, what is it now that he continues to do it and punitive damages are supposed to punish? So to me, you know, E. Jean Carroll's lawyers, they're already saying at a bare minimum, $10 million, they're gonna ask in future cases again, strumped, but I wouldn't be surprised now that they've won the

five, you know, to go and say, it's really 50. It's a hundred million for this conduct. What could be more despicable and disgusting than a situation where you prevail, you clear your name, and then the very next day, your abuser goes on national television in front of three million people and then says it again to you the day after you prevailed in trial and cleared your name he brings you down again like that and and defames you again but tell us about this surety bond situation and what's the latest in that case yeah for those interested a little more deep dive.

I do a hot take on so to you, Ben, on the graphic nature of what Donald Trump is trying to allege in order to shave $4 million off of the $5 million Jerry Award. He basically concedes that he got convicted, I would say convicted because it is a crime that's the basis of the civil case, the crime of sex abuse. The only reason it wasn't rape under New York laws, New York has a unique statute that requires penetration, penis in vagina for it to be rape and fingers don't count for rape, they count for sexual abuse. That's the only reason that the jury found that.

It's not something to be proud of. It's not something to say I got vindicated I'm only a sex abuser, but that's what Donald Trump is actually now left with having to argue in order to try to shave $4 million off the top of the verdict against him, which he will not prevail. I'll make the prediction now.

I'll go out on a limb. There's no way he's getting a new trial in the case related to the statements he made after he was no longer president. And there's no way that that is being reduced. The jury had good grounds on each of those points. They went with the numbers that were given to them by the experts.

There was only one set of experts that testified in that trial, and that was for E. Jean Carroll. Donald Trump didn't have one counter expert at all, and yes, it's unusual, it's weird. In fact, the counter expert he had on the economic damages to say that she didn't suffer that, got sick the day of the trial and didn't testify.

Can't make this stuff up. So that's a loser. And then, as we predicted and said a couple of months ago that in order to take an appeal, when you have a money judgment that is against you, you can't just say, well, I'll pay that down the road. Let's see what happens. Let's spend the, spend the wheel, roll the dice, see what happens in my appeal. I'll get back to you on the money. No. If there's a money judgment against you in every state and federal court, you have to post the bond. It's called a supercedious bond. It's a Latin way of saying, we'll keep the judgment on hold until you, that we see what happens on the appeal, but

we don't want to have to make the judgment creditor. That's what E. Jean Carol is now, a judgment creditor against Donald Trump personally. We don't't wanna have her have to go chase the money. So if you're gonna, if you're gonna appeal, you have the right to appeal, but you gotta put up the money, 110% of the amount of the judgment. Now what normal people do, that can either get bonds or aren't trying to save

50 or $100,000 is they go and get a bond. And they put up assets and they fill out financial forms and a bonding company. It's usually not a bank. It's usually a bonding company puts up a bond for the amount. Now, there's a premium that you have to pay for as long as the bond is in place. It's normally 1% of the total amount. So if he's got to put up this 5.5 million, which is 110% of the judgment,

then the bond is 1% of that or 55,000. And if the bond, if the appeal lasts longer than a year, even if it's like a one day longer than a year, you got to post the premium again. You don't get it back either. If the appeal lasts 366 days, you're paying two premiums. And that would be a hundred and ten thousand. So one of two things happened here, Ben. Either Donald Trump is so cheap that rather than get a bond and pay a hundred and ten thousand dollars and not take his money out of his bank account and tie it up, a sitting in a court registry, which is where the money is going to end up. He decided to put up 5.5 million cash that'll just sit dead in an account, not interest, not interest bearing, with the court clerk to save $110,000, which would be a year, a

little bit more on premium. Or he can't get a bond and how to put up cash. I don't know which camp I'm in. I think he's trying to save the $110,000. You think I think you think that he can't get the bond, right? Well, I think it's important to know the source of this money, which is something that I wonder if E. Jean Carroll's lawyers are going to follow up about and basically say, we don't want dirty money. So they haven't adjusted to the cash being put up.

Would you say? They haven't, but they Robbie Kaplan, the lawyer, has not objected to the cash being used. Right, exactly, but the filing just happened at the end of last week. So it's not something that there was a stipulation that was submitted by Trump's lawyer. I don't know what the judge's view is going to be of that. Is the judge going to want to know? I mean, look, the judge, the judge Lewis Kaplan sits in the Southern District of New York. There is a Southern District of New York criminal investigation into the dealings between Trump media and digital world acquisition company.

So like Trump's under criminal investigation through his entities at least in the southern district of New York through the digital world acquisition transaction. So Judge Lewis Kaplan knows about that. We know Judge Lewis Kaplan obviously knows that special counsel Jack Smith's investigating Trump for money laundering, wire fraud, and campaign finance violations regarding all of those political action committees. Judge Lewis Kaplan knows that the Trump organization was convicted on 17 felonies last year regarding tax fraud. And so I wonder if Judge Lewis Kaplan will do a variation of what Judge Barrel Howell did and just say,

yes, I'm okay with this, but can you let me know? Is the money coming from personal funds, corporate funds, you know, it'll be interesting, or they may just be like whatever. At the end of the day, they're posting the bond in the amount of 111%, which is the amount that you're supposed to. To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't know if Robbie Kaplan for the lawyer for each of her accounts going to object. She's not going to object. She's going to take the cash. But Joe Takapina had, again, another, I mean, how he is still a lawyer for Donald Trump,

Donald Trump bragging at the Jan 6 fundraiser recently, that only the best and the brightest, the greatest law firms all want to work for me. That's a lie. Okay. What he's left with is people like Joe Takapina, who in response to a reporter's question, texted back, like, why are you posting a cash bond? Is it because you can't get a bond? Is that why? And he wrote back a two line text that said, this is this is like caveman lawyer bond costs money. He has cash. Okay. Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for weighing in on that. I still think it answers the question. Could your guy get a bond or you got to say he's so miserly, not only is he trying to of of course, shave off, he should just be happy. He should

be happy that he got found to be a sex abuser. And they only, the jury only hit him with five million dollars because they hit him with a very low punitive damage number. Like we can't, you and I and others can't figure out the damage, the punitive damage number. It was like 300 grand. I thought if they're going to whack him, they're going to whack him like and on top of the four million and four point seven million dollars in actual damages, we find another four point seven million dollars in punitive. They didn't. They just, I think the jury said we're going to give her five million and we're going to do it this way. Boom, boom. We're going to round it up. That's going to be punitive damages. He should be happy. That's all they did. Yeah. Instead he's

like, no, let's drive it down to one million. That's the most she should. Let me give you a new trial too. And yeah, I'm going to post them. So he's going to take $5.5 million out of whatever account legal or illegal or save America pack that could be earning interest or invested somewhere and he's just going gonna sit it for a year and a half in a, I think it's because he can't get the bond, but we'll never know. And, and, and, and I, as you said, compliments to Robbie Kaplan, she doesn't care.

She just knows if he loses the appeal, she's got a source of cash that she can go after. Exactly, exactly. But look, accountability is here, and as I stated earlier earlier in the show, you know, I think we're seeing accountability internationally occur as well. And I think that it certainly is inextricably intertwined these events and not just coincidence as well. It's an honor to spend this time live with you all here on the Midas Touch Network.

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