Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Trump MASSIVE $83 MILLION LOSS at Trial is JUST THE START

Episode Date: January 28, 2024

Trial attorneys Ben Meiselas and Michael Popok are back with a new episode of the weekend edition of the LegalAF podcast. On this episode, they debate/discuss: next steps in the E Jean Carroll $83 million dollar verdict against Trump for sex abuse, defamation and punitive damages including appeal; the upcoming Judge Engoron order against Trump for up to $500 million to be issued next week in the NY Attorney General Civil Fraud case; Trump’s efforts to distract from his terrible legal week by baselessly attacking Fulton County DA Fani Willis; all 12 judges of the DC Court of Appeals rejecting Trump’s appeal of the gag order against him in the stayed DC Election Interference case, and so much more from the intersection of law, politics and justice. DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS! Nom Nom: Go Right Now for 50% off your no-risk two week trial at https://TryNom.com/LEGALAF Liquid IV: Get 20% off when you go to https://Liquid-IV.com and use code LEGALAF at checkout! Miracle Made: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://TryMiracle.com/LEGALAF and use the code LEGALAF to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Fum: Head to https://TryFum.com/legalaf and use code LEGALAF to save 10% off when you get the journey pack today! SUPPORT THE SHOW: Shop NEW LEGAL AF Merch at: https://store.meidastouch.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/meidastouch Sign up for the MeidasTouch newsletter: https://meidastouch.com/newsletter Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/lights-on-with-jessica-denson On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm Rob Gronkowski and last year I missed a fan duel kick of Destiny during the Super Bowl I spent the last year reflecting Meditating hanging out in Himalayan salt caves anything to get the image of that hook kick out of my head So when Fan Duel called and asked if I give it another go I jumped at the chance to lace them up for a shot at redemption. What's this? He's going to try again. And this year, I won't miss. The kick of Destiny 2 is here.

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or the gambling of someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge or go to connexontario.ca. Please play responsible. The jury has spoken an 83.3 million dollar verdict against Donald Trump in the E. Gene Carroll defamation case. 7.3 million dollars in compensatory damages.

11 million dollars in reputational damages and drop in that hammer, 65 million dollars in punitive damages against Donald Trump. As I said, a total of 83.3 million dollars you see right there, E. Jean Carroll with her lawyer, Roberta Kaplan, leaving the federal courthouse victorious, Justice prevailed. Donald Trump was defeated. Will Donald Trump now stop tormenting E. Gene Carroll as he was even doing during the trial? And now that this verdict has been entered, Alina Habba's out there whining. What happens next will break down the process of if Donald Trump appeals, he's going to have to post a bond, what's that going to look like?

We will keep you posted on all the updates. Next, we also expect that Donald Trump will get hit with another verdict next week in the range of $370 million to $500 million in the New York Attorney General's civil fraud case. And he will also be banned from ever doing real estate business again in the state of New York. And Goran, Justice and Goran, the judge presiding over the case is expected to make his final ruling this

upcoming week. And just in time, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals issued an important ruling on a case involving Martin Schroekeli, remember that guy? Farmer Bro and the decision by the Second Circuit there has now become persuasive and powerful precedent that I think will defeat Donald Trump's chance of ever succeeding if he tries to appeal the judgment in the New York Attorney General case that's about to be entered. So Michael Popak, we're looking at about a half a billion dollars in judgments against Donald Trump as you and I predicted here on legal AF which will likely

Be entered before February 1 should also be noted that the financial monitor Who's been overseeing Donald Trump's finances in connection with the New York Attorney General Civil Fraud case? connection with the New York Attorney General's civil fraud case, retired federal judge Barbara Jones, just in time as well, sent a letter to Justice Arthur Ngoran, a 14-month report, a 14-month look back on her review of the Trump organization with massive red flags that she is informing Justice Ngoran of, we'll talk about the implications of her letter. Donald Trump desperate for a distraction filed a motion to disqualify Fulton County District

attorney, Fawney Willis. He joined, Trump always joins these things late, right? Like after the evidence and facts have now come out making it increasingly clear that this whole thing with Vaughan Willis is much to do about Absolutely nothing they like unsealed divorce records It showed absolutely nothing and it's all this MAGA nonsense then Donald Trump goes you know what maybe now I should join in the motion to try to disqualify and get her dismissed try to disqualify and get her dismissed, because Donald Trump's a loser

and he likes to whine about losing and his timing is always the worst. Also, all of the judges, including the right wing judges of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously rejected Donald Trump's petition for an en banc re-hearing of the gag order that was imposed on him by federal judge tanya chutkin in the dc criminal case then affirmed mostly by a three judge panel in the dc circuit

court of appeals donald trump said hey maybe can like all of the judges now of all the judges who comprise the dc circuit hear this and all of them were like, none of us want to hear this, please go away. But still, the three judge DC circuit court of appeal panel that is hearing the absolute immunity appeal by Donald Trump, they have not yet ruled, which I was expecting this past week, this next week would be the latest. I would

have expected that to drop. So we'll see if they issue their order regarding Trump's absolute immunity appeal next week. But Popa, could you imagine if they deny Donald Trump's absolute immunity appeal next week? Judge Ngoran enters a close to a half a billion dollar order judgment against Donald Trump, the Eugene Carroll verdict, and all of that happens before February 1. A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot happened. Yeah. Yeah. Donald Trump's not the only one that tries to time his filings in order to, for maximum

impact. I am sure, I am sure Judge Angoron, with special delight, is putting the finishing touches now on his, um, whether it's 300, 400, 500 million dollar decision against Donald Trump and to ban Donald Trump from the real estate industry for life in the New York civil fraud caseud case now having seen how Judge Kaplan handled his courtroom. We'll go into that in detail during the one week trial. Donald Trump acting out and flouting the rules again in the courtroom, but a jury standing by ready to punish him.

The whole jury, the whole trial of Eugene Carroll was about sending a sufficient punishing message through punitive damages to stop his misconduct for which Donald Trump in the courtroom, outside the courtroom, and during the trial could not help himself but continued to perform misconduct in front of the jury, which only led to a much higher, I believe, much higher amount than they would have had. He just played nicely in the sandbox and colored within the lines. When we get there, Ben, we'll talk about on the three judge panel thing. Yeah, that's got to come out.

I'm beyond tapping my foot on this one. It is obvious to me when we touch on it, when we get to that segment, that that three-judge panel on absolute immunity in the D.C. Court of Appeals led by Judge Pan and then Judge Childs and Judge Henderson are struggling to get the votes around how they're going to deny Donald Trump's appeal. I don't think the struggle that we're watching in the sense that it hasn't come out fast enough, the decision, the struggle is not over. There's a holdout and there's maybe a majority to find absolute immunity for criminal conduct while somebody's in office. The struggle is how to write this and how to thread the needle and get all the votes together for a combination of jurisdiction.

Do we have jurisdiction? And then a combination of, and then do we need to send it back to Judge Chutkin for anything? Or can we just declare once and for all there's no absolute immunity? They're struggling with it knowing the historic moment. We're watching the struggle in the sense that this is why the order has not come out. Once we see the order, you and I and Karen will be able to pick through it and we will know exactly what the conflict was and how it was resolved by way of this majority decision that we're waiting on.

I think you and I both agree that the outcome will be Donald Trump does not have absolute presidential immunity. But to your point, the delay is likely being caused by these technical issues, the jurisdictional issues. Do you have to remand for certain technical questions to be answered by federal judge Tanya Chuckin as to each specific act or can you just kind of sweepingly just say this absolute immunity thing is just totally without merit. Those types of questions are probably what's being discussed but I have no doubt or I feel very confident I should say that they're all in agreement or at least the majority of the panel is what you need is in agreement that there is no absolute immunity. We'll get to that a little later.

To your point on Judge Ngoran, I just think he was waiting for that report. He asked for that report from retired Judge Barbara Jones. And I think when we hear about Judge Ngoran's order, yes, the headline is going to be the amount somewhere between $370 million, but with pre-judgment interest and penalties, it'll probably look closer to $450 million, $500 million. But I think that what's going to be talked about a lot, and we'll go through this when we talk about the Judge and Goran section and his potential ruling, there's going to be a lot of discussion on his view about Donald Trump's ongoing behavior of fraud, the persistent systemic fraud that was identified in Judge Barbara Jones' report, Trump's ongoing behavior. And I think some of the big headlines

are going to be that Donald Trump, even during the trial, posed a systemic threat to the financial system as evidenced by reports by the monitor. And that brings us, and it's a nice segue to talk about what happened in the E. Jean Carroll defamation case because rarely do you see somebody on trial that in a criminal case continues to commit the crime while they are on trial or in a civil case which the E. Jean Carroll case was a civil case

for monetary damages. Do you see a person who's on trial for defamation continuing to defame and continuing to behave in the way that they were accused of? Most defendants, even when they did the underlying act, try to at least pretend that they didn't do that or they don't act like that and they're not going to keep on giving evidence to the person that's suing them or give evidence to the prosecution. But this was such a unique situation where during the trial, Trump would be posting defamatory statements about E. Jean Carroll. E. Jean Carroll's lawyer, Roberta Kaplan, would then be showing it to the judge and saying, I want to admit this into evidence and then it would be admitted into evidence.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, he just did it again. When? Just now. Moments ago, you witnessed the defamatory statements live in real time in this court. So no doubt that was a major aspect of the jury's verdict. And Eugene Carroll's lawyer, Roberta Kaplan and Sean Crowley made that very clear in their closing arguments as well that that's what was going on and that's why you needed to send a message.

Here are my takeaways, Popak, and then I want to throw it to you. Number one, the entire defense by Donald Trump's through Alina Habba was horrifying, was sickening, was disgusting. Alina Habba went there during the opening statements and closing arguments and argued, E. Gene Carroll should be happy. This is what she wanted. Donald Trump gave her what she wanted, fame and attention. So really, Donald Trump is the victim here, which is the routine that these magas do on their right wing networks. But that's a horrific argument. That's like horrific thing in a court of law to say. It's horrific to say anywhere. But she tried to bring that maga, Trump cult stuff

into a court and it didn't play and say the victim of a rape should be happy because her rapist gave her fame and keeps giving her fame by defaming her. And Eugene Carroll's lawyers said what I just said to the jury. How horrifying! Can you believe that that's what they are actually arguing to you today? That's what they're arguing to Trump's behavior in the courtroom, storming out, speaking under his breath, showing contempt for the jury, walking out before the jury walks out, just acting like a complete maniac in the courtroom.

Three, Alina Habba was just the worst lawyer ever from every aspect of it. She was not likable and she was incompetent. She couldn't do basic things like introduce evidence. She doesn't know what admissible evidence even is. She doesn't know how to lay a foundation. She couldn't perform the most basic functions of being a lawyer. Four, as I mentioned, evidence created during the trial. Five, the judge controlling the courtroom and showing a roadmap for how you control your courtroom.

When Donald Trump tried to speak out loud, Judge Kaplan would yell at him and say, be quiet Mr. Trump, this is my courtroom, understand what I'm saying, be quiet right now. And Donald Trump would listen and he would put Donald Trump in his place over and over again and would not let this become a circus-like environment. And finally, number six, E. Jean Carroll, her courage and the competency and just exceptional nature of her lawyers, Roberta Kaplan and Sean Crowley, who were A-plus lawyers and delivered just an incredible opening and closing. How much money is it going to take to make him stop? You're gonna have to decide that because he needs to stop this behavior. Those are my takeaways.

Popak, let me throw it to you. Well, yeah, I agree with everything that all the five things that you just said. You've got a judge, you've got a collision here between a federal judge with, empowered and with all of the endowed with all the powers of federal judge who knew who his enemy was in the sense of a defendant that was going to act out, was going to be contemptuous or contumacious, was going to be disrespectful to the process, to the system, to the administration of justice, to the jury, and everybody else knowing that. Because of what happened, we all had a dress rehearsal back in April and May, a similar

but not identical trial, but about liability, about whether E. Jean Carroll was raped by Donald Trump and the jury of nine people in May found that she was. The only issue for this jury, which seemed to be a concept lost on Alina Habba and on Donald Trump was not about liability, was not about anything other than how big of a check for punitive damages would be written. And when you walk into a courtroom and you're the defendant in a case where the jury

needs to determine if they are going to throw the book at you and award punitive damages having already been instructed day one, including during jury selection, that by the judge, that this is a case about the amount of punitive damages, if any, that you are going to award. You are to assume that Donald Trump raped, sexually assaulted Eugene Carroll, and that he defamed her in the 2019 period when he was president and thereafter. And you were to take all of that into account,

including his intent to harm her with prejudice against her, with animus against her. Those are the factors that the jury had at its disposal from the moment they walked into a courtroom. And you and I have talked a lot about on legal AF over the last three and a half to four years Our faith in the jury system And we saw it play out here

I know that Robbie Kaplan the lawyer for Eugene Carroll is now on on network television Hopefully we'll get her back on the podcast again It's also to cleric her faith in the jury system that they sent a message to bullies everywhere That they will be held accountable. And if you try to do, this is now the second example of this with Rudy Giuliani a couple of months ago, also acting out in front of a jury, doing things inappropriately in real time that was brought to the jury's attention, continuing to defame the people for which he was on trial for same thing, defamation damages, punitive damages included, and the same result. He got $148 million hit from a DC jury. This one,

by the way, right on the money, not just what we predicted, but right on the money of where a jury needs to be in order to have its jury verdict upheld ultimately through a trial and an appellate process I'll talk about in a minute. That 65 million impugnative damages against the 28 million in actual damages, if you will, is so perfectly calculated to survive an appeal. I know all these nutty MAGA people are up on social media saying, she'll never see one cent. You're right, she's not going to see one cent. She's going to see whatever the total is for $83 million worth of cents. And that is going to get paid. The process

now that people should understand as we manage expectations or set expectations, is that that judgment will become final in about 30 days. Sure. Alina Habba is going to file a motion for remititer or vacatur, which means to have the judge take away from the jury and lower the number or eliminate the jury verdict. Lewis Kaplan, Louis Kaplan, the judge, having watched Donald Trump act inappropriately and teeter on the edge of contempt and mistrial for most of this case or all of this case is not lowering the number.

He also has the power to raise the number, by the way. So Lena Habba, when she asks for less, look for Robbie Kaplan to ask for a bit more and see what Judge Kaplan does in terms of it. Now, I don't think he takes it away from the jury. I think he's going to affirm and confirm the jury award. Once he does that, that judgment becomes final and they can go enforce that judgment and show up with a sheriff at bank accounts, which we know where they exist because the Barbara Jones Monitor has has you know, we know where all the bank accounts are Unless they file an appellate bond

To take another appeal like they did in the first case for the 5.2 million But this time it's not just coming up with cash You know which is chump change and I mean literally chump change because he's taking it off the chumps that support him That Donald Trump that never pays for his own, doesn't pay for his own bills and legal bills or bond posting. But that was 5.2 million plus interest, plus another 10%. This is more. This is 83 million.

So he's either going to have to get and go through the monitor to get it ultimately, supply proper financial statements, oh, what a tangled web we weave, to a bonding company and try to get a 10% bond and only have to put up 8.3 million, or let's say 10 million, and then have the bonding company be on the hook for the rest. I don't know what bonding company knowing that Donald Trump is committed persistent fraud in the state of New York as a judge by a judge is going do a bond for him, or he's gonna have to come up with the 83 and change plus another set of interests, probably closer to 100 million,

and put it into the court registry in order to stop the enforcement of that while he takes what will ultimately be a losing appeal to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals on his way to the Supreme Court again on whether he had absolute immunity. Alina Hava, you did a great job on your hot takes and we'll talk about it more here. It just is this constant harangue that she used, that she intoned and berated the jury with

about a First Amendment and the blame the rape victim and the blame The the the rape victim had it coming in other words and the rape victim is profiting from this and and you shouldn't give her more Money she's made so much money because she was raped by my client I mean this is just mind-boggling bad and the jury which as I started my my Analysis here juries hate being lied to, being found that you're inauthentic and that you're talking down to them and patronizing them. And I assure you, having worked with juries for years, this jury despised Alina Habba,

despised the muttering, unhinged, ramblings of Donald Trump. Alina Habba was shot down by the judge in front of the jury half a dozen times for doing things that were inappropriate, including being warned that she was teetering on the edge of sanctions and contempt. Juries follow the leader, the leader being the judge

wearing a black robe. They look for direction from that person. That's their boss, if you will, while they're sitting there doing their civic duty. I'm sure they had a lot of respect for for Judge Kaplan. And when when a judge looks at a lawyer and says, your effort up in my courtroom, juries take notice. And when you're trying to calculate punitive damages, as you said, Ben, that defendant should be like a halo. Should they should be wearing like their best clothes and look prim and proper and just shut the F up in court unless you're testifying at that moment.

But that's not Donald Trump's approach. He already had an example of what not to do with Rudy Giuliani and what a jury could do in response. But that didn't stop him. So he took a $5 million judgment from the summer and he by his own misconduct and his lawyer's misconduct, turned that into an $83 million judgment with a brand new jury in New York. One last comment, Ben. Merrick Garland should get credit also here for what he finally did

in terms of taking the position ultimately that there was no presidential immunity that would allow the United States to intervene in the case, to take Donald Trump out and therefore seek the cases dismissal. There was a period for about a year we were wondering what Merrick Garland was going to do with the E. Jean Carroll case. If he had stepped in and said, well, that looks like it's inside of presidential immunity and his scope of authority to have made those comments while he was president of the United States. So for future precedent, we're going to step in. That would have killed this case in its tracks and set a terrible precedent that the D.C. Court of Appeals and Supreme Court are dealing with now about immunity for civil and criminal acts of Donald Trump. So shout out to Merrick Garland. We would not be talking about an 83 million dollar judgment for Eugene Carroll if he had,

if he had asserted, if you will, presidential immunity and taken Donald Trump out of this case. You know, it's a hyper technical immunity issue which we could write hyper-technical textbooks about it. Suffice to say, there's a statute called the Westfall Act where the Department of Justice can assert that underlying conduct falls within the course and scope of presidential duties and therefore substitute in the United States as a defendant or party in the case in place of the government official. Bill Barr tried to do that as the facts developed.

Merrick Arland ultimately decided not to do that. But because Alina Habba was so incompetent, she could have independent of that process asserted absolute presidential immunity as an affirmative defense, independent of what the Attorney General would do or not do, to still be able to try to make that argument. She failed to basically check the box and put that sentence in the answer, which you would literally just say Donald Trump here by asserts absolute presidential immunity. So when that issue more recently went before the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, they laughed Alina Habba out of court and said, yeah, you're about three years too late for

this. And also in Alina Habba's press conference that she had after the trial concluded where she was whining about things like, the judge wouldn't let my experts in, the judge wouldn't allow the dress to come in, the judge wouldn't all blah blah blah. The reality is that Alina Habba waived all of those things. She based on her bad lawyering or Donald Trump's decisions, they never turned over the DNA on time, which they could have done and they could have made that an issue. It would have related to the first trial, not this trial, but they never turned that over on time. She waived the expert.

She didn't file the declarations on time. She didn't designate appropriate experts. It was disqualified because she just didn't follow the most basic fundamental rules of civil procedure. And it was clear when she was in trial that she's just a very incompetent person and Trump surrounds himself with incompetent, yes, people like Alina Haban. Afterwards, she posted something like, let's go, Maga! This is not the end of this. We're just getting started.

Just getting started with what? Losing more. I could only hope that she takes a more robust role on all things. Donald Trump. Final thing I want to mention. Federal Judge Lewis Kaplan gave a warning to jurors. He's treated this case like a mob boss case, like a mafia case. There's no, you had El Chapo in front of him. He said, do not. I'm going to give you a warning. You can do what you want to do here, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. But I would suggest strongly you tell nobody ever that you served on this jury because you could be in danger. So do not tell anybody. And the way he conducted his court, federal Judge Lewis Kaplan was that of a mafia trial. So, Popak, to your point, Donald Trump will now have to post a bond.

Eugene Carroll, unless Donald Trump doesn't post a bond, if he doesn't post the bond, Eugene Carroll can start collections right away. If Trump posts the bond, it stays the collections, pending the appeal. Trump will inevitably lose the appeal. That may take a year to kind of work its way through the courts but in terms of when I would expect E. Jean Carroll to be paid as it goes through the appeal process on both cases I mean you're probably talking about in 12 to 18 months to about two years you know she'll get paid but Trump is going to have to pay that money he's not gonna be you know he's not gonna be able to

wiggle out of this one I think you and I both agree. When we come back, let's talk about what's going on with the New York Attorney General civil fraud case. We expect a verdict to be reached there in order by Judge Ingoran or Justice Ingoran. Next week, we'll talk about the amount. We'll also talk about this report by retired federal judge Barbara Jones about her 14 month review of the Trump Organization where she found errors and inconsistencies and omissions and phantom loans all during the past, you know, 18 month period or 14 month period where she's been overseeing it. Just in those 14 months alone while the lawsuit is pending. We'll talk about that and more. Let's take our first quick break.

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Ingoran is going to issue his order. The New York State Court Judge, Justice Arthur Ingoran, will issue his order after the significant trial that took place before him. That was a bench trial. It was not before a jury, although for all of Donald Trump's complaining that he would have liked to be before a jury, Trump keeps on losing over and over again whenever he's before juries. But Justice Ngoran previously announced that he

was going to release his order sometime before February 1st. New York Attorney General, Letitia James is requesting approximately $370 million in damages against Donald Trump and the Trump Organization, also requesting injunctive relief to stop or bar Donald Trump from ever conducting business again in the state of New York, especially in the real estate sector, and seeking a five-year ban on Don Jr. and Eric from being involved in real estate. New York Attorney General Letitia James has already prevailed regarding her prior claim

as to the dissolution of the Trump Organization, where Justice Ngorong ruled in the favor of the New York Attorney General's Office that based on the systemic and persistent fraud and the fact that there were no disputed facts that the Trump Organization would be dissolved, that's currently under appeal, but that's pause while we wait for Justice Arthur Ngorong's order here as to the remaining causes of action, which include the disgorgement, the return of ill-gotten gains. That's what disgorgement is.

Return of that money that you basically took improperly from the state of New York based on your conduct and to that, Letitia James is requesting $370 million, but when you add the pre-judgment interest at approximately 9% or 10% per year compounding, you can get up to around $500 million when you add up the total of the interest, plus penalties, plus the $370 million New York Attorney General, Letitia James, is requesting there and we expect that order to be handed down next week. So two major developments though in this past week

that I think are very worth reporting, both are going to be helpful to New York Attorney General Latisha James and also helpful to Justice Arthur and Goron in crafting an order that will survive appeal. First, there was a Second Circuit Court of Appeal decision that was reached in a case involving Martin Schroekeli. You remember Martin Schroekeli? He's the farmer bro. He went to jail. He testified before Congress and invoked the fifth and he had raised the prices of various

pharmaceutical drugs like the anti-parasitic Dariprim to like thousand percent higher than it should, you know, than it should have been. But anyway, under the New York Attorney General statute that is used against Donald Trump. It was the same New York Attorney General executive law used against Shrekely. Shrekely's appeal of the utilization of that law that fined him around $65 to $75 million in disgorgement damages, whereas New York Attorney General Letitia James is seeking 370 million discouragement damages from Donald Trump and whereas Shrekely has been banned from the pharmaceutical industry, New York Attorney General Letitia James is seeking to ban Donald Trump from the real

estate industry and from doing business in New York. So Shrekely's appeal and Shrekely's case worked its way through the federal courts, not through the state court system, but nonetheless, Shrokelly was challenging this executive law that's used by the New York Attorney General saying it's unconstitutional, it's improper. All of the arguments you'll expect that Donald Trump makes about this law. Notably, one of the things that Donald Trump says too, right, which is false, which we've dispelled is that this law has never been utilized before.

They're targeting me with this law. This is the first time New York Attorney General, Atisha James, or New York Attorney General has used it before. That's not true. It's been used actually quite, with a great degree of frequency, but it's been utilized a lot

by the New York Attorney General's office over and over again. In fact, but it's been utilized a lot by the New York Attorney General's office over and over again. In fact, Donald Trump's own expert in the New York Attorney General's civil fraud case testified in one such case that was brought by the New York Attorney General. So this has been utilized before. So the fact that Shrek Kelly lost to the in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals where they said, nope, we affirm the district court's ruling that this statute by New York that's being utilized by the New York Attorney General is proper, that the remedy here of disgorgement against Shrekely plus the permanent lifetime ban from the pharmaceutical injury is appropriately tailored. That's beneficial

to New York Attorney General Atisha James. If you've been following Legal AF, we've talked about it here in the closing arguments, the New York Attorney General's Office referenced that case, but there had yet to be a ruling by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. In fact, it would have been very bad to the New York Attorney General's Office if the Second Circuit struck down that law and said it was improperly used with Shrekely But as soon as the Shrekely decision was just handed down What did New York Attorney General Leticia James do like any really good lawyer? immediately sent a letter to

immediately sent a letter to Justice Arthur and Goron Informing Judge and Goron of the decision reached by the Second Circuit. Now, the Second Circuit is not the appellate division in the state court system. It's in the federal system. So this is not binding authority on Justice Arthur and Goron, but we call it in the law persuasive authority and the fact that it's happening in a federal court in New York, I would say it's powerful persuasive authority that shows that the New York Attorney General

has the authority. And it's a recent case to do the exact remedy that she is seeking against Donald Trump. So the Shrekeli ruling, I think was a big one right there. And then we get this Barbara Jones letter. The retired judge, Barbara Jones, the independent monitor who was appointed after New York Attorney General, Leticia James, prevailed an injunction back in 2022. Judge Ngoranfam Trump was engaged in ongoing issues and ongoing financial imaginations that required somebody to oversee what was going on. And Popak, you read this letter by Judge Barbara Jones here.

This is an independent judge. She was selected by Trump, both parties selected her. This is someone with an impeccable reputation whose job was just to look through the books for the past 14 months. Her job is into, she's not a judge, right? She doesn't make the ruling. She just reports on what she sees and her letter says she's reviewed for the past 14 months.

I've identified certain deficiencies in the financial information that I have reviewed, including disclosures that are either incomplete, present results inconsistently, and or contain errors. In addition, although while defendants have been cooperative, information required to be submitted to me pursuant to the terms of the monitor, monitor ship order and review protocol has at times been lacking in completeness and timeliness. I have previously reviewed these items with the Trump organization, which has often agreed to modify

the disclosures or implement processes that improve accuracy, transparency, and the timeliness of their disclosures. In other words, they're continuing to engage in this conduct. And then you read this footnote popac that talks about footnote six, where they're talking about inconsistent disclosures, incomplete disclosures, and errors just over the past 14 months. Of particular note, I discussed the springing loan previously disclosed as being between

Donald J. Trump individually and Chicago unit acquisition, an entity related to the Trump Chicago Tower, with the Trump Organization several times. When I inquired about this loan, I was informed that there were no loan agreements that memorialized the loan, but that it was a loan that was believed to be between Donald J. Trump individually

and Chicago unit acquisition for $48 million. However, in recent discussions with the Trump Organization, it indicated that it has determined that the loan never existed, and thus it would be removed from any upcoming form submitted to the Office of Government Ethics and would also be removed from subsequent versions of the MAML, which stands for Material Assets and Material Liability. So a $48 million phantom loan sounds like fraud to me.

And Popak, Judge Jones, it's not her job to say this is fraud or not fraud, just to flag what she found It's for New York Attorney General Leticia James to Characterize it a certain way and the judge to make ruins But this happened since the filing finally before I pass it to you before all the legal a efforts get upset Popak was having some technical difficulties on his end, which is why I hogged this category Otherwise I would share and let Popak speak. So for anyone in the comments who are saying,

let Popak speak, I was doing Popak a solid right there. I'm gonna let Popak take the full next topic after we talk about Judge Barbara Jones to make up for it. And does not have a Popak mute button. I assure you, I had some technical difficulties that's been outlined. Oh, we've got good news that we can report right on target and write about what Ben said to start the podcast.

Judge Angoran is gonna be issuing his order on Wednesday, the court has announced of this week, just as we said, waiting for the results of the jury, the federal jury of the Eugene Carroll case and waiting for this report that the jury, the federal jury of the E. Jean Carroll case, and waiting for this report that we're going over in detail by former Judge Barbara Jones, Judge Engoran is ready to having, I'm sure, as I said earlier in my analysis weeks ago, that he had most of that order written at the time of the closing arguments a couple of weeks ago that went

terribly for Chris Kice, the lawyer for Donald Trump, and was just waiting to see if there was anything that he had missed in 11 weeks of trial, in dozens of witnesses, in the experts, so-called experts by Donald Trump and in the thousands of pages of exhibits that he, and yes, shout out to his principal law clerk, that he and his principal law clerk sifted through and coordinated and analyzed for the 11 weeks. It's not judges that are the bench trial judges

and not the jurors for fact-finding. Don't wait until the very end in order to start drafting or coming up with their final judgments. They are every day, they are noting things in the daily transcript of that trial about things that will be important to their ultimate decision, and they're making notes and taking notes in real time that end up getting weaved into their order. So it shouldn't come as any surprise that a couple of weeks after, less than a couple of weeks after the oral argument, he's ready to issue what I expect would be a 15, 20, 25, whatever page single spaced as only Judge Engoran can do, order against Donald Trump upwards, upwards,

I think closer to the 500 million that you talked about. And now he's got, the judge has even more fodder and firepower because even though the persistent fraud findings are for a period of time and not necessarily up to the moment, the monitoring as a remedy that he installed and will continue, obviously, to keep in place to make sure that there are controls over this New York corporation unless and until the time when they are dissolved, which is a separate matter, I guess at the appellate court level. This only gives the judge, and I'm sure he will cite to it, that even today, an organization that Donald Trump still heads, and for which his children are still officers and control

officers is not being honest and truthful and forthright nor have proper controls in his children are still officers and control officers is not being honest and truthful and forthright nor have proper controls in place in the company even at the moment, even to the moment. And that demonstrates that they have no interest or desire to run that organization in a way that's consistent with New York law and the judge's findings. And to your point about the law that the Schrokelly case,

I always get his name screwed up, Farmer Bro case that the Second Circuit came down with, although not directly on point, it does talk about the powers of a New York attorney general or attorney General to seek both discouragement and industry banning. That law that she's using has been on the books since 1956. Jacob Javits, for which there is a convention center named after him in New York, before he was a senator, was an attorney general and he got that power back in 1956.

That's how long that's been on the book. So if you don't like the way New York Corporation Law works, or you don't like the power of the attorney general, such as the NRA that incorporated in the early 1910s in New York, or Donald Trump's organization, who was father incorporated in New York in the 1950s and 60s then you move out and you go to states like the Santas land in

Florida if you don't like that where you don't have to worry about an attorney general going after you because they don't go after anybody Especially them on the Mago world, but if you're gonna stay in New York This was always been a power in fact part of the power of disgorgement was was embodied in a case involving the Trump Organization and Trump University. And so, you know, and the ability to declare persistent fraud and the powers that flow from that. So for Chris Keist to continue to get up, you know, they have this broken record. You know, Alina Habba can't stop saying, it's almost like a Tourette's. She can't stop saying First Amendment. Everything is First Amendment. First Amendment right to defame Eugene Carroll.

First Amendment right for Mike Lyon to say anything he wants that pops into his head in a courtroom. First Amendment right for me to speak and not be banned and barred by the judge. And Chris Keist, the same thing. Everything there is you can't, discouragement is not an appropriate remedy. There's no power to discourage by way of the New York Attorney General. Look, Chris, I know you don't practice in New York regularly. You're a Florida lawyer. And therefore, you know, I would expect you to be more expert in

Florida law, but you don't know what the heck you're talking about when it comes to the New York Attorney General. And if that's going to be your appeal, when the judge nails your client and continues to cite to judge Jones's monitoring, where she actually said, buried in this 14 pages, but she actually said, I wasn't really charged with figuring out whether they're committing fraud or not. And I haven't been hired to do that. And I can't attest that they're not continuing to commit fraud. I can tell you there's control problems. I can tell you they make non material errors, including the 48, the, the $48 million dollar Phantom Loan issue that, that they haven't come back to me on certain of the errors that they switched using a statement of financial condition and

started using this MAML, this material assets thing without getting lender approval. I don't know if that's proper or not. And there's still doing transactions behind my back that I have to then find with my team and report to you. This is not a report card that you want if you're trying to convince a judge that you're on your best behavior and you shouldn't be dissolved and you no longer need to have a monitor over you. I mean, listen, I'll be frank.

I've been involved with an organization and it happens in financial services that has had sort of other outside agencies that have wanted to put monitors over them. And for a short period of time over certain parts of their business. And you better make sure you get a clean bill of health and straight A's on that report card,

or you're gonna just buy a lifetime monitor. And until this company is either put out of its misery by the judge's order affirmed on appeal that it should be dissolved because it can't operate in any way other than in a criminal way, in a fraudulent way, then they're going to have this monitor in place for as long as possible. You know, you go back to the Eugene Carroll case, he can't stop. That was one of the themes of Roberta Kaplan's close and Sean Crowley's closing argument. You have to make him stop.

He's incapable. There could be other trials. He won't stop doing it unless you make him stop engaging in this defamatory behavior against his rape victim, right? Here in the New York Attorney General's civil fraud case, it's a financial argument like that. He's incapable of not committing fraud. He continues to commit fraud over and over again and just can't be stopped.

So Judge, we have to use this law, which was just affirmed by the Second Circuit because even during the period of the lawsuit, they kept on doing it. And again, while I think one of the headlines here is going to be the number, because the numbers always get lots of headlines, whether it's 370 million

with penalties and pre-judgment interest, $500 million. We're going to be at half a billion dollars in judgments against Donald Trump by next week where he's going again to have to post a bond in New York, like he's going to have to post a bond in the E. Gene Carroll. But look for, I'm looking for for Popeye the other aspects of Justice Arthur and Goron's order, where he's going to talk about this continuing fraud and what's going to be done about it. Yes, he's ordered the dissolution. Yes, Trump will get banned from doing real estate in New York. But I suspect, just like you and I suspect that in E. Jean Carroll there may be another lawsuit that's filed an injunctive

Junction to ban Trump from saying these things based on these verdicts another defamation case I think very quickly we could have another New York Attorney General Investigation in case opened up like immediately because of that report that we are just talking about right now. Not now, Ben, before you move on on that note, she's about what Tisha James can walk and chew gum at the same time. She's about to put the NRA out of business under the same set of statutes right now. You know, while the case was dark against Trump, she started her case, not with Judge Angoron, but with another judge,

but in the same New York State Supreme Court. And her team can put on two major cases at the same time. And NRA and Wayne LaPierre are going to be barred and banned from ever doing business in New York again. The NRA tried to already move to a different state and reincorporate in Texas, but there still remains power of the New York Attorney General and the NRA, which we thought was impenetrable and no harm could ever come to it in a case. Watch Leticia James in the same year as New York Attorney General take down Donald Trump for half a billion dollars,

put him out of the real estate business and do the exact same thing to the NRA. And like Trump, some of the key witnesses against the NRA were the NRA's own people who talked about the private jets and the yacht known as illusions that all of this money that was being donated to the NRA by people that the NRA grifted off of, similar to the way Trump griffs off MAGA, were being used private jets, family trips, black car services, high-end gifts for friends and family. I mean, all of that stuff, the parallels

there are uncanny. And then someone like LaPierre was going to whine and go, oh, they're targeting me. You're just committing systemic and persistent fraud. And we're going to talk about Georgia in a bit where there's like no evidence. Don't get me wrong. I think when you're talking about, excuse me, language, no evidence against Folton County District Attorney Fawney Willis to try to disqualify her. And as I've said to you, I said it's probably not a great look, but there's no evidence there. I wanted to keep, I wanted to say, where's the evidence? If there's bad evidence that gets released, I want to share that with the legal AFers out there.

But I hope as you look through our presentation of these cases, especially as some of these cases are now reaching part of their conclusions, whether it's the defamation case or whether it is the case in the New York Attorney General's civil fraud case. I hope what you find though, is that we haven't misrepresented what the underlying facts and evidence are. I believe the jury was gonna reach the verdict that it did because that's where the facts and evidence were.

I believe that the judge in Goran's gonna reach this because that's where the facts and evidence are. I believe that the judge in Goran's gonna reach this because that's where the facts and evidence are. But it's a very fact-based detailed analysis that leads to these conclusions. So let's talk about what's going on in Fulton County, Georgia, where you have a bunch of magninonsense attacking Fulton County District Attorney, Fawney Willis.

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I want to talk about all this I consider to be MAGA nonsense in Fulton County, Georgia, where they were attacking Fawney-Willis. I said on the last show, I thought that creating any ability for MAGA to attack you in ways that can be avoidable. I think, from my own perspective, it's like, why even give them an issue? You know where they're going to go with these things. It's going to create distractions where they can be avoided if they can be avoided, avoid them. It has nothing to do with the underlying merits of the prosecution, but then why even create the issue to begin with when I think it's avoidable. Now, Donald Trump is joining the motion by Michael Roman, of his code defendants in the case to try to disqualify and

dismiss the Disqualify phony willis and get the case dismissed popock. I ate up a lot of the New York case while you were having some technical difficulties So as promised, I'm gonna give you this whole topic to break fresh from Georgia where I was visiting my mother So I feel very to give you this whole topic to break. Fresh from Georgia where I was visiting my mother, so I feel very well prepared for this. So we had reported earlier on Legal AF and you and I did hot takes on it that Mike Roman, who as you touched on was what I like to refer to as the fake certificate mule,

bringing the fake certificates from the seven battleground states and wending their way through even members of Congress to try to get to Mike Pence and pressure him. He was the election day coordinator for Donald Trump. He's in a load of hurt with Ken Chesbro, a now disgraced and convicted felon former lawyer for Donald Trump,

now testifying around the country against Donald Trump and the fake elector scheme that he helped invent and Mike Roman's role in it. So he's got a lot of problems. And so what they've come up with, with his lawyer, Ashley Merchant, is to file several weeks ago a motion which tries to drag Fawni Willis and the indictment and the prosecution down into the mud and drag it through what looks to be a nasty divorce proceeding involving her special counsel, special prosecutor, Nathan Wade, and his soon-to-be ex-wife who cheated on him. And I only know that from what I've now learned, unfortunately, from the unsealing of the

divorce records. So in order to... So people might be thinking, who cares whether he's getting a divorce or not? And the bad look or optics that you and I have talked about, and I did a hot take about this, is that Fawnie Willis looks like she's going to have to admit that she's in some sort of outside of work relationship or friendship that Friendship Plus has traveled with Nathan Wade and they've gone on some relatively inexpensive cruises together and maybe went to wine country in Napa Valley together. I really don't care.

None of that is a ethical dilemma for a prosecutor when you're having a relationship with somebody on that side of the V. It's not like she's not like a movie where she's having a relationship with somebody on that side of the V. It's not like she's not like a movie where she's, you know, having a relationship with the defense lawyer and they've compromised the prosecution in some way because they're whispering to each other pillow talk. This is the person that works for her. So as Karen and our colleague said, is it an HR problem? I don't know, maybe. Is it a prosecutor grounds to dismiss the indictment problem? That's the problem with MAGA. They always go too far. They don't just want it to squalify Thauney Willis and Nathan Wade. They want to dismiss the indictment as a result.

It's great because they always hand it easy out to the judge like McAfee, like, okay, let's start from the beginning. I am not dismissing the indictment rendered by, and I think this is what's gonna happen in mid-February at the hearing, rendered by a proper grand jury in Georgia on the backs of a special purpose grand jury that lasted for four months,

that listened to copious amounts of evidence and decided to issue an indictment. And I haven't heard anything. This is where I think he's going to go. I haven't heard anything other than besmirching the reputation of the prosecutor and commenting on her choice of boyfriend that would undermine the validity and sanctity of that process or the resulting indictment. Now, should Nathan Wade at this point continue on the case or has he been compromised because of this attack on him and by extension, Fawty Willis?

If somebody's gotta go, it should be Nathan Wade for many levels of reasons. And she can replace Nathan Wade. We, and justice can't replace Fulton County District Attorney Fauney T. Willis, who was elected by the people to do a job, and by all accounts, including our own, is doing a masterful job in going after Donald Trump. The new argument that Donald Trump's lawyers have raised, you said weeks late joining the me too of the Mike Roman filing Which is they don't like the speech that Fonnie Willis gave to the

Historic historic black church on Martin Luther King, Jr. Weekend in which without naming names She called out her critics, claimed that she was, and I agree with her, that she was being attacked and her judgment was being attacked for hiring Nathan Wade for having him work under her or with her on the case because she's black and her judgment's being questioned and he's black and his judgment's being questioned and he's black and his judgment's being questioned. And so she raised this kind of racial thing, from literally from the pulpit of a black church during Martin Luther King weekend.

And so that gave Steve Seydow, the lawyer for Donald Trump, along with Jennifer Little, hold that thought on Jennifer Little, because she's embroiled in the Mar-a-Lago case as a witness against Donald Trump. Leave that for a moment. But she did sign the pleadings that were just filed. There is a provision under the normal rules of ethics. There's nothing wrong with dating somebody you work with. In fact, I even posited on my hot take that if anything, based on how little he's charged on this case, given the scope of it, I think he's working harder and for less money because maybe he's charged on this case, given the scope of it, I think he's working harder and for

less money because maybe he's having a relationship with Fondie Willis. I don't think it runs the other way. I don't think he's slacking and or overcharging the taxpayers of Georgia because he's in a relationship. I think he's working his three piece suit off on this case. And if he's only charged $700,000, I mean, not to compare and contrast, Fondi Willis with Jack Smith, but she's got a 30 count indictment against 15 people and has fought off federal court, federal court, federal appeals about federal removal statute and has gotten four

convictions already and 10 or 12 people already states witnesses flipping on Donald Trump. She's not a great job. It's always he but there is a provision Again, this is optics more than anything else that judge McAfee is gonna have to sort through Georgia ruled professional conduct 3.8 special responsibilities for a prosecutor says in little G that except for statements that are necessary to inform the public of the nature and extent of the prosecutor's action and that serve a legitimate law enforcement purpose, a prosecutor should refrain from making extra judicial comments, meaning outside the courtroom, that have a substantial likelihood of what? Heightening public condemnation of the accused.

That's not what she did. She didn't get up on the bully pulpit or the pulpit of this church and say, and Donald Trump is a racist and i'm going after him and he hates black people, future jurors of folton county, and that's why i'm And he hates black people, future jurors of Fulton County. And that's why I'm prosecuting him. And he's disgusting. She didn't do that. She defended herself. And he's saying that she is blowing,

talk about balls and gaslighting, that she, Ronnie Willis, is blowing a racist dog whistle against Donald Trump to whip up a prejudice against him by the future primarily possibly all black or mostly black Fulton County jury against him because that's what he's worried about. Now, look, let's put this in context. There's not a person of color prosecutor or attorney general against Donald Trump that Donald Trump has not called a racist completely misunderstanding and misapprehending what the term racist means. Okay, so Fawney Willis, even before this came out, racist.

She's black, I'm white, and I'm getting prosecuted because of that. Okay, no evidence of that whatsoever. And she didn't indict Donald Trump, the grand jury did. Alvin Bragg, New York Manhattan District Attorney, who happens to be Black, who got a conviction, 17 count against Donald Trump's organization for tax fraud a year and a half ago, and now has brought the Stormy Daniels Business Record

Fraud case. Racist. I'm white. He's Black. I must be prosecuted because I'm white and he's Black. Leticia James, New York Attorney General, who we talked about at length during this podcast and throughout the course of Legal AF in the last year and he's black. Leticia James, New York attorney general who we talked about at length during this podcast and throughout the course of legal AF in the last year.

She's black, I'm white, that must be the reason I'm about to lose my business and be banned from the industry. It's always somebody else's problem and if they're black, God help us. It's because they're racist and he's white, not because of his misconduct as indicted by multiple grand juries Grand jury Mar-a-Lago indicted him

Grand jury Fulton County indicted him grand jury district of Columbia indicted him grand jury Manhattan for Manhattan Stormy Daniels indicted him Right. This is four different grand juries that have indicted him in three different states. Or yeah, three different states, four different locations. Sorry. It's all because he's white and the prosecutors are black. I mean, MAGA, you know, and I read,

and you do a great job of always catching up on all and scrape at all the social media posts from all the wackadoos that are in the MAGA party. I mean, the comments that they make about the justice system and E. Jean Carroll's disgusting and she's a liar, the justice system has gone to hell and, you know, woo, MAGA 2024. I mean, I don't even understand what they're talking about. And neither I don't think do the independence at the middle of this electorate. He's not making, I'm gonna say this

and I'll wrap up Georgia. Donald Trump is not making any new voters. Okay, yes, he is animating and activating the MAGA base who can only vote one at a time at once Okay, except when they commit voter fraud the that's that's that's them But has he created any new ones to overcome the electoral advantage of the presiding the the current president and his and his track record? No, in my view no and in our our Moderates and independents more likely to vote for Donald Trump now. No, absolutely not. You know, we just have to, you know, we're buffeting up against this age issue with Donald, with Joe Biden, which is quickly turning in his favor based on the performance, unhinged

performance of Donald Trump. So look, back to Georgia. Do I think that under this rule, she has violated this special prosecutor rule by making statements on the pulpit of the church? No. Do I think Scott McAfee is going to kind of scrunch up his nose a bit about their relationship and maybe suggest that Mr. Wade needs to exit stage left? Maybe. Is he going to dismiss the indictment in the middle of February because of all this, or assign a new special prosecutor? No. Is Governor Kemp, despite getting pressured by the GOP, Republicans in Georgia, some of which are the ones that are being investigated and indicted for involvement in the fake elector scandal,

is he going to succumb to that pressure and take her out? No. And I think in terms of the trial calendar, though, we're not going to see a faunty T. Willis-led prosecution trial of Donald Trump, you know, before late summer, and it's not going to conclude before the election day when people vote on November 5th. There's only two cases that have a shot of doing that you and I've talked about at length A jack smith's case if it gets up and running by may or june We could conclude based on the speed of federal cases and with a jury verdict prior to november

Um, and I don't think there's anything in the doj manual that's going to stop him from trying that case that that in the box department of justice rule that's going to stop him from trying that case, that in the box Department of Justice rule, that's about starting a criminal investigation. That's not about trying a case about one that's already ongoing. So I don't think that's going to be implicated. And then the one that you and I like, and of course Karen loves from her old office,

which is the Stormy Daniels case, which is going to trial on March the 24th, probably by itself and will conclude within eight weeks or nine weeks after that with a jury verdict. So in terms of just kind of verdict, verdict criminal case and where we're going with all of this, you know, you have the Eugene Carroll verdict, $83.3 million against Donald Trump. Next week, we should have the New York Attorney General verdict against Donald Trump in the range of $370 million to $500 million. Then

we'll have a criminal case in March. We'll probably reach verdict by what? Late April before May. I think you'll have Donald Trump as a convicted felon. He will continue to be whining about all of this. At the end of the day, Popak, as you just stated, this is independent grand juries. Grand jury one in Fulton County, grand jury in Florida, grand jury in Washington, D.C., grand jury in Washington, D.C., grand jury in Manhattan. And then you didn't even mention the actual juries in some of the cases. Like an actual jury convicted the Trump Organization of over a dozen felony accounts last year,

and you had Donald Trump's CFO plead guilty for tax fraud, Allen Weisselberg. You had a civil jury who heard the sexual assault allegations against Donald Trump in a federal trial back in May and found that Donald Trump raped Eugene Carroll and found Donald Trump defamed Eugene Carroll. It's actually assaulted E.G. Carroll. The judge made it clear it's the same thing as rape in the universal sense of how the word is used. New York just has a technical definition. Another jury heard what Donald Trump did, observed him on a Friday, issued a verdict in the amount

of $83.3 million. So consistently over and over and over again, in these situations, pop-up where the facts and data matter, juries are coming to the right conclusions, and we here at Legal AF are following that data and following those conclusions. And Popak, you mentioned independent voters and how they're all observing this. This is why though MAGA Republicans are talking about the border over and over and over again. It's worth mentioning right now, although we've done broader hot takes on it, the Supreme Court ruling that basically overturned what the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeal had done, which was preventing the Biden administration from removing this barbed wire fencing that was leading to the deaths of migrants.

It was killing human beings. It was killing people. And there's a way, I think, and President Biden agrees, to be tough on the border while still preserving our values as Americans and not killing people and separating families and torturing individuals. And one of the things where politics meets law at the intersection of legal AF is this Senate deal on the border, which is the toughest border to bipartisan Democrats and Republicans. President Biden working with people like Senator Langford and Murphy and Sinema and people we may or may not disagree with who have come together, Romney, Schumer, all coming together and putting together like the toughest border bill that

really addressed everything on a bipartisan basis. And what does Donald Trump do? He orders the Republicans to kill this deal. The whole day, he's been posting to Maga Mike Johnson and others, kill this deal, do not do the deal. And meanwhile, what's going on in Texas? You have Governor Abbott and all these Republican attorney generals and governors basically trying to trigger

like this PR scene where Biden sends the federal government in to remove the barbed wire fences. And then Governor Abbott puts his own forces against the Biden federal forces and there's this conflict at the border. And they're trying to create these stunts and in an adult way, President Biden's kind of rising above that

and saying, hey, I'm trying to reach a bipartisan deal to actually address this solution. And all you Maga Republicans are doing is trying to create these stunts and this kind of lawlessness. And by the way, when you have Amy Coney Barrett and Judge Roberts, the two right wing judges, justices on the Supreme Court, align with the other justices appointed by Democratic administration. So it was a 5-4 decision and then a Texas governor Republican Maga Republic government was I'm not following the law of this Supreme Court And in fact, I'm putting my own National Guard and I'm gonna treat my National Guard like it's my own militia and arm them against the federal government

I mean, I think independence, I think most Americans who crave normalcy and are solution-oriented, like I am, I go, hey, look, there's a bipartisan solution. Don't we want a solution? I go, oh, wait, no, Donald Trump doesn't because he's telling people that he thinks it'll be good for his election if he whines about the lawlessness, if he whines about the lawlessness. And that's what this is all about, just the whining over and over again. So I wanted to mention that Supreme Court ruling in Texas connected to the Senate border deal and connected to the broader point you were making there, Michael Popak, about these kind of independent voters.

But I'll save the rest of that for the politics show. Let me just briefly talk about what's going on in the DC Circuit Court of Appeals. You predicted this, Popak, but a fairly easy prediction to have made that the DC Circuit Court of Appeals... Although you challenged me when I did. The DC Circuit Court of Appeals rejected Donald Trump's request for an unbunk hearing. It's spelled E-N, space-B-A-N-C. It's a Latin term to hear the full panel

of all of the judges who comprise the DC Circuit Court of Appeals. You can basically petition on extraordinary cases that they hear the decision by a three judge panel, right? So the way it works is federal judge, Tanya Chutkin, made the ruling imposing a gag order a Three-judge panel by the DC Circuit Court of Appeals which kind of supervises the district court Judge Tonya Chutkin They mostly affirm the gag order some aspects of it They modified but they mostly afford affirm the gag order on Donald Trump

Trump goes to the DC Circuit Court of Appeals The full panel and says hey hey, right wing judges, you want to help me out here? Maybe we can hear this. And every single one said no. None of us want to even have a hearing on this, rejected. So Donald Trump loses yet again. And then we talked about it.

I want to make a point about it. I'm going to give you the full opportunity to just kind of be, and then finally the DC Circuit Court of Appeals panel, as we talked about at the outset, they have not yet reached a decision on the absolute presidential immunity question. My prediction was it would happen before February. So, you know, next week I would be putting it at the outer perimeter of my prediction of when we would get a ruling by Thursday, but that's kind of the outer perimeter of mine. If it keeps going to the following week,

I'll start probably having a little bit of concern of what's going on. And even if they ultimately were to rule that absolute immunity does not exist, which I think they will ultimately reach that conclusion, the delay is going to cause a problem if this keeps getting pushed further and further up. But Popak, I'll let you finish up with kind of everything else on that topic.

Yeah. No, I didn't have much more than that. I think you hit it well. On the three judge panel, I am concerned. I thought it would come much faster. I said five days out of the way that hot bench was against John Sauer for Donald Trump. I really thought they had already coalesced having read the briefs around where their decision making was going to be. And Judge Pan is such a forceful power even among the three that I thought she kind of get this together quickly. Yes, understand historical importance of the decision about declaring for the first time that there is no absolute immunity for criminal conduct of a then president. We don't want that precedent on our books and for our

history. But she's having a harder time. As you said, as we both said, they're struggling internally. But eventually, the perfection can't be the enemy of the good enough. She's got to get this order out because I think everybody believes that the DC court of appeals level, based on prior rulings against Donald Trump from our indication of where their heads are at there, that it's important that the American people know whether Donald Trump is a convicted felon or not before November 5th. In order to do that, since Judge Chuckin's already signaled in her most recent ruling, finding that Jack Smith is not in contempt

for having to continue to progress the case in a certain way. But she did say that, you know, while I thought seven months was enough time, six months is not enough time, and five months is not enough time for Donald Trump to prepare his case. And this case has been on ice, and a pen has been placed in it for over a month since the filing of the notice of appeal. So they got to get off the stick here and get this out.

If there's any hope, okay, March is gone. There's not going to be an early March trial involving Donald Trump and Jack Smith, just not happening. Alvin Bragg, yes, poetic justice. He's first to indict, first to try a case. Great. We'll take any, at this point, we'll take any criminal trial that's available at the moment. But we want this trial to get started and off the ground in May, June, May, June. And that's, we're getting up there now. Forget Alien Count. And that case is not happening. And Judge Chutkin's

not going to wait for that case. And to just clarify one thing that I see sometimes raised in chats, DMs and other things to me and to the others. There is no world in which there are simultaneous criminal cases against Donald Trump. Due process won't allow that. And constitutional rights of the defendant won't allow that. So whatever case is up and running, that case has to run to conclusion. And then there's a gap, a little bit of a gap

before the next trial starts. So March 24th is Stormy Daniels. That, it takes a little bit longer to pick a jury in New York than other places. And so you're talking about eight weeks, March, April, May. And now suddenly, hopefully, Chuckin's ready, May, June. Forget about Cannon. She's done, Mar-a-Lago is not getting tried this year And now suddenly hopefully Chuckins ready May June forget about cannon She's not Mar-a-Lago is not getting tried this year because of these other problems that we just talked about and then stormy and then

Fawnie Willis not because of her who she's going to Napa Valley with that's not the reason but her case would not even be There wasn't even be a thought that it would get tried before August and she's already said it's gonna take her seven or eight Months to try that case so forget it that so that note There's no no up or down vote if you will prior prior to that and the one comment I'll make about the on bunk is That that does have an impact on The Supreme Court should Donald Trump now decide to take the gag order issue Which I'm not sure he's going to do up to the United States Supreme Court, should Donald Trump now decide to take the gag order issue, which I'm not sure he's going to do, up to the United States Supreme Court?

Because, yes, the US Supreme Court will review this sort of de novo, if you will, certain aspects of it. But there is now a 12-0 vote, if you will. zero vote, if you will. No one on the district, on the DC Court of Appeals, no one wanted to hear this on bonk and thought that the three-judge panel led by Judge Millette got it wrong. Not one. You needed a majority to just even hear it, right? You needed seven to vote for it, which would have been almost impossible. And then even if they wanted to hear it, which would have been almost impossible. And then even if they wanted to hear it, they still have to, on the merits, they have to decide something. He didn't get any that wanted to hear it. And that will resonate with the United States Supreme Court if and when Donald Trump decides

to take an appeal, which I don't think he's going to take, given that he's, in fact, he's losing regularly on immunity issues and gag order issues. And I'm not sure he needs, although, you know, I think the running theme on legal AF the last few weeks is his legal team is terrible, does not give him proper advice, or he is his own strategist between him and Boris Epstein. They make terrible decisions that no normal litigant would make. No normal litigant would think to take an appeal on the, given his track record so far and his losing track record.

You know, I'm on with Anthony Davis this weekend on a weekend show and Anthony posited, he's still the Teflon Don. There's still things that, you know, he can get away with it. I said, I don't see that anymore. I mean, he's lost on immunity time and time again. He's lost on gag orders. He's lost on jury verdicts. He's been indicted four times.

He's not gonna go 91 and 0, yeah, on his indictments, on his felonies to win this case. We are seeing justices, and I'll leave it on Robbie Kaplan's comments about E. Jean Carroll. We are watching the justice system at its best and a jury system at its best. It takes time. I've got a case that's like nine years since it was filed that hasn't gone to trial yet. It happens, but we'll continue to hold people accountable.

Here on Legal AF, we don't blow smoke or sunshine. Ben and I certainly don't. Karen and I don't. About what we do. Yeah, Ben and Popeye don't either either. Pope, you know, they say the greatest trick of the devil that the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist. I think the greatest trick that authoritarians and people like Donald Trump have ever played is convincing the world that they don't lose. Donald Trump's a loser. He loses over and over again. Everything he's touched, he's not a builder. He's a destroyer. He's bankrupted every company he's touched. You go back to his history from the 70s and the 80s. It's filled with litigation and losing litigation, losing over and over again. And he would lose

in Atlantic City. He would screw over contractors. They would sue him. He would try to delay it. He would end up trying to settle with them. Loser, loser, loser, loser. Yet because, I don't know, he speaks like a petulant third grader about being a winner over and over again. He goes, I'm a winner, I'm a winner, a winner. Just keeps on repeating that. It's a very strange thing that that's instilled in the psyche, but authoritarianism and the propaganda behind it has always hoisted these types of people up to make it feel like their victory is inevitable

and to make everybody else feel that there's just nothing you can do so you just have to accept the inevitability of that. Those MAGA tactics that we would see and call out and expose in authoritarian abroad and historically and look down upon has reached our shores. And it's really sad to see you talk about independence. I talk about even mainstream Republicans, independence, the pro-democracy community needing to unite right now against this threat. But for everyone, you know, to your point when you said Anthony Davis positive that this is the Teflon done, this is a loser. This is a weak, unhinged, weird loser of a person who whines.

He wasn't there when the verdict was taken. He storms out of courtroom. His behavior is that of a loser. You want to talk about courage. You want to talk about winners. You want to talk about winners, you want to talk about real power. Look at E. Jean Carroll. Look at her lawyer, Roberta Kaplan and Roberta Kaplan's partner, Sean Crowley. You want to talk about winners? Look at Judge Kaplan, who has respect and dignity and controlled his courtroom. Those are the values of the United States of America, not

this MAGA mess. And as we talk about the intersection of law and politics, that intersection is so critical right now where you have this movement in MAGA that's built on trying to rip to shreds and tear down this delicate tapestry, these norms, these values that form our legal system, why you went to law school, why I went to law school, why we love our country, why we love our legal system, while we recognize its flaws and shortcomings as we look to improve them. MAGA looks to just destroy it and replace it basically with Rudy Giuliani at the Four Seasons, whatever it is next to the porn shop and the whatever. And that right there is something that we all who love our laws, who love our democracy

need to be united on. So tomorrow, for all our legal A.F.ers, I did and I'll announce it here. I did a 30-minute interview, Michael Popak, with former Arkansas Governor, Asa Hutchinson. We spoke for 30 minutes about democracy, the state of our country, and I'm announcing it here for, I announced it on our Patreon first, and now I'm announcing it here for everybody could watch, and it's going to be a 10 AM Pacific. And we really spent a long time going through issues where we disagreed, where we agreed. And I wanted to show how we can set aside differences and truly have a debate with civility. So I'm so proud to release that at 10 a.m. Pacific, one Eastern tomorrow. So make sure everybody checks that out.

MidasTouch.com slash newsletter. That's where you can check out our new newsletter. Subscribe for free. You'll get emails from me and my brothers, other contributors. Maybe Popak will have you send a letter out to all of everybody on that newsletter list, mitestouch.com slash newsletter. Folks, it was a good week for justice.

Let's keep this momentum. Popak, Karen Friedman, Agnifalo, myself and all of the contributors here at the Mitestouch Network will be here with you each step of the way. Thank you all for your support. Thank you for being a part of this pro-democracy law and order community. And we'll see you next time on Legal AF. Shout out to the Midas Mighty.